Muzan vs Sukuna

[MonarchInYellow]

Like, I feel we are going in circles here. It's proven by your Demon Slayers pages that it's not ALWAYS insta kill, although it does indeed incapacitate. And by our Jujutsu pages, it's proven that Sukuna can manage his own blood flow even without his heart, so he CAN stop Muzan's blood fom going further into his system. Also, by his feat of destroying his brain and rebuilding it, we know that he can literally destroy any body part and rebuild it it needed.

Also, from his fight with Higuruma, which I also provided scans, it's proven he can react and cut a member part out before an attack even connects, so if any arm or leg gets infected, he WOULD chop it off before it got worse.

Other than that, it's already shown that Meguna's preferred style (except when fighting Gojo, BECAUSE of INFINITY) is to keep his distance and overpower the opponent through shikigamis. Sukuna would not go into CQC against Muzan.

Yorozu even called him out for "hiding' behind his shikigamis.

Not just that, but Sukuna also did this against Gojo, albeit toned down, since he knew Gojo could permanently kill his shikigamis easily.

Here you can even see him using Mahoraga as a shield against Gojo.

Sukuna doesn't need to rush the fight, nor would he. Just like against Gojo, he can simply wait until Mahoraga adapts and finds a way to deal with Muzan. Sukuna literally knows when to run and retreat. He defeated Gojo exactly because of this. He wasn't simply stronger, he was smarter. Sukuna would NOT fight head on without understanding how someone with 0 cursed energy was regenerating.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Tanjiro was already resisting it and he still got one shotted by the hax out of nowhere with only 3 slashes. It was also stated by kokushibo that it takes HUGE amounts of blood for them to affect breathing users due to having high resistance (higher resistance with tanjiro due to constant).

" you have some other scan where it instantly killing his opponents without giving even a second to resists?"

Why would Muzan just sit there and do nothing? What is he going to do, emote on him fortnite style? Why would he not attack Sukuna when hes crippled to the ground.

Technically what @MonarchInYellow said.
He goes into his shadow. Also, what will Muzan do against shadows that are invisible to physical attacks? Muzan doesn't have curse manipulation or anything similar to curse energy to damage them.

Slayers like Muichiro and those comparable can keep their blood circulating to stay alive and fight while missing half a body to be fair.

The Wind Hashira's brother is not a good example, though. Wasn't it clearly mentioned that he was incapable of using breathing techniques? His skill comes from being able to inject demon parts into himself.

Also, where is the statement about blood circulation? It seems more like sheer willpower and stopping the blood flow at best to avoid being instantly killed. Sukuna's case, on the other hand, involves actively doing it mid-combat despite missing his heart.

Muzan's blood instantly spreads throughout the entire body so cutting off his body parts do not matter as his entire body is already infected. Even then, this is under the assumption that Muzan only stabs his arms and legs. Whos to say the first stab is to his gut or head. He cant cut it off now can he.

I do agree this is a fair arguments. But Sukuna also has RCT based on his Shikigami. If he can't move he can just use his Shikigami to heal his body parts.
Just so you know using RCT would replace the blood(I mean he can reconstruct his body parts so lost blood is replaced by RCT). This is basic skill needed when using RCT. It creates a new blood. Even Yuta can do this with his instincts.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Being honest with you, I find it way more possible to see Muzan simply beheading or cutting Sukuna in half than killing him through bio hax. Of course, once again, bio hax IS a wincon, but isn't it easier for Muzan to try and tear Sukuna apart?

Even though I still believe Sukuna would die through bio hax, for your argument bio hax would help support Muzan beheading sukuna or turning him into Go/jo 2.0. If I'm correct, 15/16 Sukuna scales to 1.32 Kilotons based off of Gojo's feat? Muzan would have a 4.3 times strength difference against Sukuna's durability and should be capable of cutting sukuna in half due to him having dozens of long range whip like tentacles. He could also use his full aoe shockwave attack to damage Sukuna with his AP advantage over his durability.

I get what you mean, even more because of the page you provided, but I don't think hat would happen. The reason I say that is: we saw Sukuna get literally knocked unconscious, and he still was able to get to his shadow safely. He was literally knocked out, but still was able to get inside. So I really doubt merely pain would be able to stop him from getting in, even more when you consider that by merely falling to the ground, he would already be able to enter his shadow. And merely pain never stopped him. He didn't wince once when he destroyed his heart, when he rebuilt his brain. He literally was charred, with only one single arm when he made a binding vow on the spot to cast World Slash for the first time (a technique he didn't even know if he would really manage to pull out). That's why, even though I agree the bio hax is a wincon, if Muzan doesn't kill Sukuna instantly, he will be able to recover, because he will then be able to get into his shadow. Pain has never been able to stop Sukuna nor any top tier in jujutsu, their willpower is really high.

Personally I dont see what prevents him from finishing off Sukuna before he hides into his shadows and might just lop his head off before the bio hax happens.

But even if he brings Sukuna into the Infinity Castle, what does that change? Sukuna can get inside his shadow once again. All he needs is contact to the ground.

And again, is that considering that Sukuna has all of his shikigamis? We already have seen Sukuna using rabbit escape as a shield against Gojo, who can kill them. What would Muzan do when Sukuna casts an infinite amount of rabbits as a shield from his attacks, which Mahoraga and Agito keeps jumping him? Would Muzan just let Mahoraga keep his adaptation going?

"Honestly if the BFR is a wincon, what just stops him from BFRing Sukuna into the infinity fortress? Even if it isnt, what stops Muzan from forcing them to fight in the infinity fortress and constantly shifting/teleporting his shikigamis across the infinity fortress? Couldn't he also just shift/teleport himself away from any danger such as his domain expansion with his control over the dimension? Honestly he could even just exit the infinity fortress or teleport sukuna out of it while Sukuna launches a divine flames that is amped with malevolent shrine."

If Sukuna tries to summon his shikigamis to jump him or teleport them back to him, nothing stops Muzan from constantly teleporting/shifting them across the infinity fortress. Honestly this just sounds like it would lead into an incon with the amount of spamming lol.

 

[MonarchInYellow]

I do agree this is a fair arguments. But Sukuna also has RCT based on his Shikigami. If he can't move he can just use his Shikigami to heal his body parts.
Just so you know using RCT would replace the blood. This is basic skill needed when using RCT. It creates a new blood. Even Yuta can do this with his instincts.

That's why, even though I beliece Muzan, if he gets a lucky hit in, can kill Sukuna through bio hax (using it straight in Sukuna's brain, for example), I don't think it would really give Muzan the win. Even if Muzan's blood gets into Sukuna's system, he's shown to be able to survive without his heart, so he can simply stop his bloodflow, replace his blood, and then go back to fighting like normal.

And all while he's safe in his shadow doing this, Mahoraga is creating a counter to Muzan's blood, and there's nothing Muzan can do about it. Not only that, but every hit done by the shikigamis will get Muzan cursed, weakening him more and more with every hit.

 

[Arkenis]

This is basic skill needed when using RCT. It creates a new blood. Even Yuta can do this with his instincts.

its not basic, they struggle with it and Yuta has no clue, don't make it seem like off instincts is a good thing lmao.

 

[57Dev]

If speed wasn't equalized, this would be blitz match for Muzan.

About Mahoraga. He can't adapt to passive elements that aren't affecting him. He didn't adapt to RCT and need to get hit by Gojo's attacks to adapt to Infinity. Sukuna's slashes are useless here, it's like using a knife against water.

The furnace might work, but that takes time. Time in which Muzan would pump him with blood and destroy his cells. Also still a might because Muzan just needs to throw a chuck of flesh out of range and Sukuna just wasted half his ce for nothing.

Infinity castle is a stomp. Muzan won't die, doesn't have time limit and he can teleport in Sukuna's face and kill him.

Also I wonder, if he infects Shikigami with his blood, do they have to follow him ?

 

[MonarchInYellow]

Even though I still believe Sukuna would die through bio hax, for your argument bio hax would help support Muzan beheading sukuna or turning him into Go/jo 2.0. If I'm correct, 15/16 Sukuna scales to 1.32 Kilotons based off of Gojo's feat? Muzan would have a 4.3 times strength difference against Sukuna's durability and should be capable of cutting sukuna in half due to him having dozens of long range whip like tentacles. He could also use his full aoe shockwave attack to damage Sukuna with his AP advantage over his durability.

Either way, yeah, Muzan has the AP advantage. That's why I don't see bio hax as his main wincon, since if he is able to tear Sukuna apart, he wins.

Personally I dont see what prevents him from finishing off Sukuna before he hides into his shadows and might just lop his head off before the bio hax happens.

Purely the fact speed is equalized, being honest. Sukuna can instantly get into his shadow as long as he's in contact with any shadow (even his own), so there's no real way to blitz Sukuna here. Also, the shikigamis would be constantly in the way too.

"Honestly if the BFR is a wincon, what just stops him from BFRing Sukuna into the infinity fortress? Even if it isnt, what stops Muzan from forcing them to fight in the infinity fortress and constantly shifting/teleporting his shikigamis across the infinity fortress? Couldn't he also just shift/teleport himself away from any danger such as his domain expansion with his control over the dimension? Honestly he could even just exit the infinity fortress or teleport sukuna out of it while Sukuna launches a divine flames that is amped with malevolent shrine."

The only thing I can think of is: does not being able to see them, make it any harder to teleport them? I don't think it does make it any harder for Muzan, but if it really doesn't, then nothing, I guess. I don't remember Muzan doing that constantly in combat, but I guess he can do that. However, since they can travel through shadows, it would really be kinda a game of tag, with both parties constantly teleporting lol

If Sukuna tries to summon his shikigamis to jump him or teleport them back to him, nothing stops Muzan from constantly teleporting/shifting them across the infinity fortress. Honestly this just sounds like it would lead into an incon with the amount of spamming lol.

Yeah, I really think so haha
Sukuna's sole win condition seem to be on Mahoraga, since, from what I know, even if Sukuna dragged Muzan into his shadows, Muzan would still be able to go back to the infinity castle? I only vote for Sukuna because of his running strategy. Since Muzan really has no way to kill Mahoraga other than killing Sukuna, that's a rally consistent wincon, as long as Sukuna manages to stay away through Rabbit Escape and his shadows, but I really can see it being incon as it can go both ways

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

its not basic, they struggle with it and Yuta has no clue, don't make it seem like off instincts is a good thing lmao.

I didn't say everyone does that with instincts, but Yuta does.

The point is, regeneration of blood is still needed when you use RCT. As for Sukuna's case, I already explained that he can reconstruct his body parts, which requires new blood, as the scan states. You don't automatically get blood regenerated—it still requires enough skill. I don't know why you keep downplaying Sukuna's skill below Yuta's.

 

[Catbowtie]

Unless you have proof for that, that's just your headcanon. It says all phenomena, not all Cursed Techniques. When he adapted to Sukuna's slashes, Sukuna himself said that he, at that moment, had become immune to every single slashing attack.

No, Burden of Proof is on you. Sukuna supporters say that Mahoraga can adapt to Muzan's blood. Show us a scan of Mahoraga adapting to a "Phenomena" that isn't Cursed Energy or a Cursed Technique and then you can say that Mahoraga can adapt to Muzan's blood.

But it's very clear the narrative meant "Phenomena" as "any Cursed Technique" because like...why wouldn't it lol?

In Jujutsu Kaisen, cursed techniques are the only superpower there is, and is the main way of fighting, so of course Mahoraga would focus his adaptation on cursed techniques. But it's clearly stated that it's all phenomena. He WOULD adaptate to Muzan's blood. If you don't like it, you open a discussion to get it changed. His page says he adaptates to all and any phenomena, so that's what it's considered inside VSBattle. Scream if you want, but it won't change.

Yes...all phenomena which is limited to all Cursed Techniques within the verse lmao. Again, you are showing no proof for your claims, and it's really bordering on a NLF.

No, that's not. We know thats not true because, in JJK, everyone has cursed energy. Every single person. You can mask it, but you cannot hide it, even more when you are facing the greatest sorcerer in history. Sukuna would immediately know that Muzan didn't have cursed energy, and be on his guard. Why? Because we saw how he reacted to Maki.

No, Sukuna was excited to fight Maki because she was the only person to force him to prove something. Which probably just means he wants to go cqc with Muzan even more

And CQC is not Sukuna preferred style of combat. I provided a bunch os scans earlier, and in those you see that he always prefers to simply slice his opponents away from a distance. Even as Meguna, when using TS, he always keeps his range. Gojo is the one focused on CQC, not Sukuna. Anyways, once Sukuna saw that not only Muzan had 0 cursed energy, but he also regenerates without RCT, he would be on his utmost guard just like when he saw Maki. Once again, it's all in the manga.

No, he wouldn't. That's not even remotely close to Sukuna's character, wtf. He never plays around techniques he don't understand. He literally finished Nanako, who he knew was fodder, without letting her activate her cursed techniques (which could, indeed, be a problem even for sukuna). He didn't know what she did, but he didn't take chances. The same happened against Jogo. He was playing around? Yes, but he didn't let not even a single move hit, because as he said, he knew they could probably do some damage.

You can literally search up any Sukuna fight and see that he LOVES to go for hand to hand combat. Even in VSBattles, people commonly accept that Sukuna starts with cqc He fodderized Nanako because he wasn't interested in her at all. Muzan is a completely different situation. You cherrypicked one instance of him killing someone immediately and said that's how he acts all the time when that just isn't true.

Anyways, I'm not going to go in circles. The post really just needs votes.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

About Mahoraga. He can't adapt to passive elements that aren't affecting him. He didn't adapt to RCT and need to get hit by Gojo's attacks to adapt to Infinity. Sukuna's slashes are useless here, it's like using a knife against water.

The thing is Mahoraga adapts to Attacks if Muzan uses his blood as attack so it would just create Invulnerability and counter to it. You can check @Duedate8898 comment in second page.

RCT is not a attack so I don't think it's fair to compare it Muzan Blood.

 

[MonarchInYellow]

If speed wasn't equalized, this would be blitz match for Muzan.

Yeah.

About Mahoraga. He can't adapt to passive elements that aren't affecting him. He didn't adapt to RCT and need to get hit by Gojo's attacks to adapt to Infinity. Sukuna's slashes are useless here, it's like using a knife against water.

Indeed, but by slashing Muzan's body apart, he would be constantly getting in contact with it and it's nature, trying to affect him. Even more because Muzan probably would try hitting the giant thing he is sensing around him, which would feed his adaptation process ON THE BLOOD.

The furnace might work, but that takes time. Time in which Muzan would pump him with blood and destroy his cells. Also still a might because Muzan just needs to throw a chuck of flesh out of range and Sukuna just wasted half his ce for nothing.

Yeah. Sukuna, against Gojo, also didn't believe Furnace would be useful at first because it took too long and he still had to deal with Gojo's infinity, so it would probably be the same here. He could wait until Mahoraga finds an adaptation that helps dealing with Muzan, and then he goes for Furnace, but yeah it's useless trying to go for it at first.

Infinity castle is a stomp. Muzan won't die, doesn't have time limit and he can teleport in Sukuna's face and kill him.

But can he do it inside Sukuna's shadow? Theres no buoyancy there, and anyone caught there apert from the user falls forever.

Also I wonder, if he infects Shikigami with his blood, do they have to follow him ?

I don't think it would work, since it's said that only cursed energy can cause any real effect in cursed spirits (shikigamis aren't cursed spirits, but they are built just like one).

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

He goes into his shadow. Also, what will Muzan do against shadows that are invisible to physical attacks? Muzan doesn't have curse manipulation or anything similar to curse energy to damage them.

Already explained with his complete control over the infinity fortress and how hes able to use them for a fight.

The Wind Hashira's brother is not a good example, though. Wasn't it clearly mentioned that he was incapable of using breathing techniques? His skill comes from being able to inject demon parts into himself. Also, where is the statement about blood circulation? It seems more like sheer willpower and stopping the blood flow at best to avoid being instantly killed. Sukuna's case, on the other hand, involves actively doing it mid-combat despite missing his heart.

I wasn't using Genya as an example. Those panels are showing Muichiro who kept fighting while being sliced in half and kept living on through total concentration breathing. Sanemi did the same thing.
.

I do agree this is a fair arguments. But Sukuna also has RCT based on his Shikigami. If he can't move he can just use his Shikigami to heal his body parts.
Just so you know using RCT would replace the blood(I mean he can reconstruct his body parts so lost blood is replaced by RCT). This is basic skill needed when using RCT. It creates a new blood. Even Yuta can do this with his instincts.

Arkenis explained it pretty much. Also Since Muzan's bio hax isnt a gradual process and hits full force all at once, he wouldnt realize hes been infected until it cripples him, leaving a massive opening for Muzan to easily Go/jo him with his long range tentacles.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Either way, yeah, Muzan has the AP advantage. That's why I don't see bio hax as his main wincon, since if he is able to tear Sukuna apart, he wins.

Yes.

Purely the fact speed is equalized, being honest. Sukuna can instantly get into his shadow as long as he's in contact with any shadow (even his own), so there's no real way to blitz Sukuna here. Also, the shikigamis would be constantly in the way too.

There would still also be a chance he doesn't get into his shadows in time either.

The only thing I can think of is: does not being able to see them, make it any harder to teleport them? I don't think it does make it any harder for Muzan, but if it really doesn't, then nothing, I guess. I don't remember Muzan doing that constantly in combat, but I guess he can do that. However, since they can travel through shadows, it would really be kinda a game of tag, with both parties constantly teleporting lol

Yeah, I really think so haha
Sukuna's sole win condition seem to be on Mahoraga, since, from what I know, even if Sukuna dragged Muzan into his shadows, Muzan would still be able to go back to the infinity castle? I only vote for Sukuna because of his running strategy. Since Muzan really has no way to kill Mahoraga other than killing Sukuna, that's a rally consistent wincon, as long as Sukuna manages to stay away through Rabbit Escape and his shadows, but I really can see it being incon as it can go both ways

Muzan was constantly shifting the fortress so the slayers wouldn't reach him while he was dealing with a drug. Muzan would constantly do it if hes getting jumped that badly, especially against unkillable invisible entities. Hell, he wouldve done that if all the hashiras managed to reach him inside the infinity fortress. Muzan can sense the shikigamis anyways so it doesnt really matter if he can see them. Muzan has 3 different win cons via AP slicing him in pieces, Bio hax, and infinity fortress and Sukuna only has 1 via Mahoraga. Atp its a Muzan win FRA or an incon via the spamming of hiding in his shadows and infinity fortress spamming.

 

[karo_senpaii]

muzan FRA

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

first time? lol
even if they work for you before you post sometimes they just don't afterwards and it's because of the site you're using, use a different one


anyways, i beleive i made my point clear, i vote muzan fra, heading off to continue my projects and fanfic

@Arkenis you missed passerbys vote btw

 

[MonarchInYellow]

No, Burden of Proof is on you. Sukuna supporters say that Mahoraga can adapt to Muzan's blood. Show us a scan of Mahoraga adapting to a "Phenomena" that isn't Cursed Energy or a Cursed Technique and then you can say that Mahoraga can adapt to Muzan's blood.

The manga states he can adapt to any and all phenomena, and you are here claiming otherwise. Once again, it's on his page, it's valid. You are claiming the manga is wrong and asking me to prove it isn't? What are you using? Once again, if you don't like it, open a CRT and try getting it changed. He has adaptation on his page regarding all phenomena, and that's how we'll treat it on this site. The manga claims he adapts to all phenomena and so he does.

But it's very clear the narrative meant "Phenomena" as "any Cursed Technique" because like...why wouldn't it lol?

No, it's not. Also, in the anime he grows fins when Sukuna pins him underwater. I don't like shorts, but the guy added the scene here. I'm on the phone, about to go to sleep, so I won't get anything else rn.

Yes...all phenomena which is limited to all Cursed Techniques within the verse lmao. Again, you are showing no proof for your claims, and it's really bordering on a NLF.

The manga claims all phenomena, and VsBattle accepts it as all phenomena. Open a CRT and go cry there.

No, Sukuna was excited to fight Maki because she was the only person to force him to prove something. Which probably just means he wants to go cqc with Muzan even more

He was excited to fight Maki because there's no one else in the world like her, just like there's no one else in the world like him. He was born in a world where everyone has cursed energy, and he, in special, was born with the ultimate body for sorcery. He is literally the incarnation of the perfect sorcerer. Maki? She defied all of that. In a world where everybody had cursed energy, she was born without any. He's existence defied Cursed energy itself, and, by extension, defied his. Muzan would bring the same reaction to him, it's the same logic. He would not go CQC and you didn't provide no proof of that. Maki didn't have RCT nor any inhuman skill, Muzan does. Sukuna isn't careless.

You can literally search up any Sukuna fight and see that he LOVES to go for hand to hand combat. Even in VSBattles, people commonly accept that Sukuna starts with cqc He fodderized Nanako because he wasn't interested in her at all. Muzan is a completely different situation. You cherrypicked one instance of him killing someone immediately and said that's how he acts all the time when that just isn't true.

You know people can choose the starting situation of a fight, right? That doesn't change the fact they can be wrong. I didn't "cherrypick" it. Sukuna literally started by using dismantle on Nanako and Jogo, before asking the two girls what they wanted. He didn't like it and killed them. After that, he started fighting Jogo, and he still was spamming his Cursed Technique, that was being effective.

He did the same when fighting Itadori when he went to Meguna, he was going for dismantles, not CQC.

Of course, if they go for CQC, he also can fight that way and will answer that way. But he always goes for the kill unless he's interested, as he did when fighting Megumi. He wanted his body, so he wouldn't kill him, and thus he went for CQC. The one who cherrypicked was you, picking Sukuna's very first fight against something he knew was just a curse boosted by one of his fingers, not someone who could possess a Technique that could kill him. Good luck finding Sukuna fighting a Sorcerer or someone with an unknown technique, where he didn't avoid their attacks and fight by prioritizing dismantles.

Anyways, I'm not going to go in circles. The post really just needs votes.

Yeah, I agree, even though you weren't even making any points, just making a fuss with no valid reasoning.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

I just want to mention and appreciate how this matchup went from a 15 message stomp from the original thread to this fight reaching almost 5 pages long in less than half a day. Its amazing.

The King of Curses vs The King of Demons: Sukuna vs Muzan

Sukuna vs Muzan Location: Infinity castle Rules: Muzan is in 8-A tier meanwhile Sukuna is in Low 7-C Tier Speed is NOT EQUALIZED 6 Hours till sunrise Nakime is hidden somewhere in the infinity castle They start 100 meters from each other...

vsbattles.com

 

[MonarchInYellow]

I just want to mention and appreciate how this matchup went from a 15 page stomp from the original thread to this fight reaching almost 5 pages long in less than half a day. Its amazing.

The King of Curses vs The King of Demons: Sukuna vs Muzan

Sukuna vs Muzan Location: Infinity castle Rules: Muzan is in 8-A tier meanwhile Sukuna is in Low 7-C Tier Speed is NOT EQUALIZED 6 Hours till sunrise Nakime is hidden somewhere in the infinity castle They start 100 meters from each other...

vsbattles.com

Also, thank you for the fun! This is my first time discussing here, and it was really cool! Although I still don't like some of the "arguments' some people made by criticizing us for using stuff on the characters page, it was really cool debating with you. I'm going to sleep rn, havegood night or a good day! (idk your timezone)

 

[Arkenis]

For those coming in later:

Muzan win cons: Bio hax decon demon blood that basically any of his attacks will be coated with which destroys the body's cells in seconds vaporizing the person. Muzan's near 5x diff ap allows any attack to destroy Sukuna either cutting him in half or knocking his head off. BFR via Infinity Fortress which is in character.

Sukuna's win cons: Using Mahoraga's wheel to adapt to Muzan's regeneration and kill him. Domain + Furnace, millions of cuts to destroy Muzan and then vaporize him with fire arrow. CE poisoning

Main Contentions and Counters: Sukuna can RCT or circulate his blood to slow and or remove Muzan's blood is in contention due to how fast and potent the bloods effects are. Due to how strong Muzan is, Sukuna will hide in the shadows and let his shikigamis fight waiting for Mahoraga to adapt. The Shikigamis will curse Muzan due to how ce works resulting in Muzan dying or severely weakened (?). Mahoraga's adaptation is specific to cursed techniques as the phenomena not something like Muzan's blood or his regeneration.

HM: Mahoraga's adaptation will somehow in someway adapt to the Infinity Fortress thus allowing Mahoraga to gain dimensional travel and or dimensional slash to go back and save Sukuna.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Snip

Honestly the domain + divine flames wincon really wouldnt happen since Muzan is capable of instantly regenerating mid slashes in the domain. He can just avoid it entirely with infinity fortress manipulation too

 

[Catbowtie]

Bump for interest

 

[Pearly0nsams]

Muzan fra

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Grace

 

[Danny33wise]

Voting muzan based on the arguments presented.

 

[Kavopaco]

Voting for Muzan fra.

 

[Arkansalter2]

Muzan FRA.

 

[Catbowtie]

Votes are looking like this:

Natural Disaster: CastoriceTheFifth, Catbowtie, DarkRuler234, YeahhBoyee, karo_senpaii, Passersby, Pearly0nsams, Danny33wise, Kavopaco, Arkansalter
Calamity: MonarchInYellow, CBslayeR, Duedate8898

 

[Ebihara]

I like the arguments more for Sukuna. voting based on Mostly monarch's reasoning's. Going to keep following closely.

 

[speedster352]

Muzan fra

 

[MonarchInYellow]

Honestly the domain + divine flames wincon really wouldnt happen since Muzan is capable of instantly regenerating mid slashes in the domain. He can just avoid it entirely with infinity fortress manipulation too

I'm not sure if I quite understand how Infinity Fortress Manipulation would help him avoid the sure-hit. I remember he can teleport to anywhere in Infinity Castle, but wouldn't he still be caught up in Malevolent Shrine?

Also, I still believe Malevolent Shrine would be effective. The reason for my questioning is the following: we know that, from how Sukuna's domain works, that both his slashes, cleave and dismantle, instantly cuts everything inside of it's range. I do agree that Muzan would heal through the slashes, but if caught inside of the domain, every slash would apply more and more curses to Muzan, weakening him further. Not to mention, even though the cuts woudn't be enough to kill Muzan, Furnace works by igniting every single matted material inside the range of Malevolent Shrine. From what I remember from when I read Kimetsu no Yaiba, and also from reading the characters page, burning demon cells reduces the effectiveness of their regeneration, so even if Furnace didn't kill Muzan, the thermobaric explosions would hamper his regeneration enough for Sukuna to buy some time, no? And even if Malevolent Shrine didn't kill Muzan, it would still be useful to tear down Infinity Castle + weaken Muzan. Even if Sukuna cannot defeat Muzan quickly, the constant barrage of attacks from his shikigamis, and also from his domain, would go on to weaken Muzan as long as the fight went on. When Maki, who was already trained and strong to be considered worthy of being AT LEAST a grade 2 sorcerer was hit by a powerful, but not special grade curse, she quickly fell to the ground unable to move. And we know that Sukuna's cursed energy is way more intense than of that cursed spirit.

Even though I don't believe Muzan would fall down quickly for the curse effect, since Muzan has no resistance agaisnt curses, I truly do believe this is a relevant point to consider. Through the shikigamis attacks and Sukuna's own dismantles (which have way more range than anything Muzan has, since his tentacles only extend as far as 10 meters) the curse effect would for sure stack very quickly.

Even though Mahoraga is still the best wincon, since Muzan can't do anything to him but feed his adaptation process, weakening Muzan through curses + the usage of Furnace may also give him the win, if the thermobaric explosions truly are able to slow down his regeneration, which I do believe it is capable of, since Bright Red Blades are simply the blades after being heated up.

Either Muzan quickly kills Sukuna, or Sukuna will go on weakening Muzan until he is able to guarantee the kill through Mahoraga's adaptation on Muzan's blood (he could develop a substance akin to the poison they used agaisnt him in that fight, maybe to nullify his blood effects) + Furnace and the curse effect.

 

[MonarchInYellow]

Furnace is an attack that can reduce Muzan to ashes and on top of that, it can stop Muzan's regeneration even if temporarily. That, combined with the weakening of Muzan through curse manipulation, wouldn't it be another wincon for Sukuna? Muzan has to deal with the shikigamis constantly jumping and weakening him with every attack, WHILE trying to catch Sukuna, that as Meguna, prefers long range combat, as I have already shown in the scans above. Muzan really can tear Sukuna apart if he hits him, but considering the way Sukuna fights as Meguna, I really do believe it would be hard for him to be able to do that. Not impossible, but considering that Muzan has no way to avoid getting weakened by the shikigamis (if he BFR them, Sukuna can simply summon them back through the shadows, since both the user and the shikigamis can travel through shadows as a medium.

BFRing them isn't a good idea too, since Mahoraga only needs to be affected once to start his adaptation agaisnt any phenomena. Getting hit again is only needed to make the process faster, but not needed for it's completion, as you can see here:



Honestly, even bringing Sukuna into the Infinity Castle would already be enough to start Mahoraga's adaptation to it, and in due time, BFR wouldn't be a win condition nor a viable action for Muzan anymore.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

I'm not sure if I quite understand how Infinity Fortress Manipulation would help him avoid the sure-hit. I remember he can teleport to anywhere in Infinity Castle, but wouldn't he still be caught up in Malevolent Shrine?

Muzan can just exit the infinity fortress or just teleport Sukuna across the dimension or kick him out of it when he tries to do a malevolent shrine + divine flames combo. (Context Akaza was teleported across the dimension). The Infinity Fortress is practically Muzan's domain expansion.

Also, I still believe Malevolent Shrine would be effective. The reason for my questioning is the following: we know that, from how Sukuna's domain works, that both his slashes, cleave and dismantle, instantly cuts everything inside of it's range. I do agree that Muzan would heal through the slashes, but if caught inside of the domain, every slash would apply more and more curses to Muzan, weakening him further.

We honestly do not know how prominent the curses will be against Muzan and we can only assume it'd just weaking him. Taking note of that, Muzan was capable fighting against being jumped by the hashiras and the kamado squad until sunrise despite rapidly weakening due to being drugged and that said drugs having 4 different stages all specifically targeting Muzan's demonic biology (albeit he is capable of removing the drug if given time in a safe area). So we don't know how prominent the curses will be against him.

Not to mention, even though the cuts woudn't be enough to kill Muzan, Furnace works by igniting every single matted material inside the range of Malevolent Shrine. From what I remember from when I read Kimetsu no Yaiba, and also from reading the characters page, burning demon cells reduces the effectiveness of their regeneration, so even if Furnace didn't kill Muzan, the thermobaric explosions would hamper his regeneration enough for Sukuna to buy some time, no? And even if Malevolent Shrine didn't kill Muzan, it would still be useful to tear down Infinity Castle + weaken Muzan. Even if Sukuna cannot defeat Muzan quickly, the constant barrage of attacks from his shikigamis, and also from his domain, would go on to weaken Muzan as long as the fight went on. When Maki, who was already trained and strong to be considered worthy of being AT LEAST a grade 2 sorcerer was hit by a powerful, but not special grade curse, she quickly fell to the ground unable to move. And we know that Sukuna's cursed energy is way more intense than of that cursed spirit.

Everyone here agrees Muzan gets obliterated by divine flames + domain combo. The issue is that it will never land. It takes too much time to charge that Muzan would either cook him there or just teleport him out of the fortress like lower moon 1.

The infinity fortress is also constantly being sustained/stabilized as the entire dimension is a blood demon art so I don't think destroying the dimension will work. (Refer to the first reply regarding cursing Muzan)

Even though I don't believe Muzan would fall down quickly for the curse effect, since Muzan has no resistance agaisnt curses, I truly do believe this is a relevant point to consider. Through the shikigamis attacks and Sukuna's own dismantles (which have way more range than anything Muzan has, since his tentacles only extend as far as 10 meters) the curse effect would for sure stack very quickly.

Refer to reply 1 for the curse. Muzan also has a full aoe long range shockwave attack and energy ball that can still heavily damage him with his AP. The range is long enough to reach Kiriya Ubuyashiki. (Im only talking about the AP since Sukuna might be able to resist the seizure effects of the attack).

Even though Mahoraga is still the best wincon, since Muzan can't do anything to him but feed his adaptation process, weakening Muzan through curses + the usage of Furnace may also give him the win, if the thermobaric explosions truly are able to slow down his regeneration, which I do believe it is capable of, since Bright Red Blades are simply the blades after being heated up.

Either Muzan quickly kills Sukuna, or Sukuna will go on weakening Muzan until he is able to guarantee the kill through Mahoraga's adaptation on Muzan's blood (he could develop a substance akin to the poison they used agaisnt him in that fight, maybe to nullify his blood effects) + Furnace and the curse effect.

The divine flames win con would really not happen due to reasons above about how it will never land.

 

[Arkenis]

I don't see why Muzan couldn't just figure out how to control ce honestly. He's got six brains iirc, he should easily be capable of rewiring his brains or simply being smart enough to control it

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

I don't see why Muzan couldn't just figure out how to control ce honestly. He's got six brains iirc, he should easily be capable of rewiring his brains or simply being smart enough to control it

He also has adaption on his profile

• Adaptation (Adapted to becoming beheaded by Nichirin swords using his multiple organs. Can make himself immune to poisons he didn't experience by being telepathically informed about their properties)

 

[Arkenis]

He also has adaption on his profile

• Adaptation (Adapted to becoming beheaded by Nichirin swords using his multiple organs. Can make himself immune to poisons he didn't experience by being telepathically informed about their properties)

Yeah but that seems only useable if he gains the info from others

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Furnace is an attack that can reduce Muzan to ashes and on top of that, it can stop Muzan's regeneration even if temporarily. That, combined with the weakening of Muzan through curse manipulation, wouldn't it be another wincon for Sukuna? Muzan has to deal with the shikigamis constantly jumping and weakening him with every attack, WHILE trying to catch Sukuna, that as Meguna, prefers long range combat, as I have already shown in the scans above. Muzan really can tear Sukuna apart if he hits him, but considering the way Sukuna fights as Meguna, I really do believe it would be hard for him to be able to do that. Not impossible, but considering that Muzan has no way to avoid getting weakened by the shikigamis (if he BFR them, Sukuna can simply summon them back through the shadows, since both the user and the shikigamis can travel through shadows as a medium.

BFRing them isn't a good idea too, since Mahoraga only needs to be affected once to start his adaptation agaisnt any phenomena. Getting hit again is only needed to make the process faster, but not needed for it's completion, as you can see here:

Honestly, even bringing Sukuna into the Infinity Castle would already be enough to start Mahoraga's adaptation to it, and in due time, BFR wouldn't be a win condition nor a viable action for Muzan anymore.

Everyone agrees divine flames one shots him. It would just never land. He can deal with the shikigami as he has vast control over the dimension and can spam teleport them around or out of it while constantly shifting the dimension. Muzan can also just teleport Sukuna to him, teleport to Sukuna, or just constantly shift the dimension in his favor so Sukuna isn't able to fight long range. This is why someone here said infinity fortress would stomp Sukuna.

We also do not know if its even possible for Mahoraga to adapt to the fortress or what he would even be adapting to or what the adaption is. One this is to say he would adapt to Muzan's blood hax but this adaption would require so much assumptions.

 

[MonarchInYellow]

Everyone agrees divine flames one shots him. It would just never land. He can deal with the shikigami as he has vast control over the dimension and can spam teleport them around or out of it while constantly shifting the dimension. Muzan can also just teleport Sukuna to him, teleport to Sukuna, or just constantly shift the dimension in his favor so Sukuna isn't able to fight long range. This is why someone here said infinity fortress would stomp Sukuna.

I agree, but what I mean is, does Muzan frequently apply that in combat? I know someone here sent the page where Muzan instantly pulled everyone into Infinity Castle, but I don't remember him teleporting everyone into it in he final fight. Wouldn't he have won if he kept spamming it like that? I know he couldn't do it after Nakime died, but did he do that when she was alive?

We also do not know if its even possible for Mahoraga to adapt to the fortress or what he would even be adapting to or what the adaption is. One this is to say he would adapt to Muzan's blood hax but this adaption would require so much assumptions.

He adapts to anything that affects him. In the page above, he uses the example of Gojo's domain. Gojo's domain forcefully and continuously inserted information inside of your brain, making it so you couldn't do anything because your mind couldn't process everything. Mahoraga, through Megumi being hit with this, became completely immune to Gojo's domain's effect. Not only that, but after he adapted to it, he was able to instantly shatter it from the inside.

And about how he did it, he simply adapted to it enough that he could destroy it at any given moment. It wasn't that ge simply hit the barrier and broke it (since that's impossible, it's stated that even though you can attack a domain's barrier from the inside, doing such a thing is impossible because there's no way to find where the "border" is, so Mahoraga couldn't have hit that. Not only that is true, but we also know that Mahoraga didn't adapt to the barrier, he adapted to the domain's effect, and that was enough to destroy it from the inside.

Another example is Yorozu's Sphere. When Mahoraga adaptation was complete, he was able to instantly shatter her True Sphere by simply touching it. And once again, Yorozu's Sphere applied pressure (its the strongest move from JJK).

He also destroyed Infinity simply by touching it, after he has adapted to it.

And as the page I sent in a previous comment confirms, Mahoraga adaptation never stops. He first becomes immune and able to destroy whatever he adapted to, but them he is able to keep on going and developing new moves (went from destroying Infinity simply by touching it to using World Cutting Slash, and he designed specifically World Cutting Slash because Sukuna asked for something he too could use).

Both Domain Expansion and Nakime's ability, according to her profile and Domain Expansion specific page, are both listed as Pocket Reality Manipulation. What really is stopping Mahoraga from, just like he did with Gojo's domain, simply shattering Infinity Castle once he adapts to it? It's really hard to say Mahoraga would develop a specific technique, since we do not know what ability he would develop, I agree, but we know for a fact that, once he adapts to something, the very least he can do is deactivate the ability which he adapted to. And since both Domain Expansions and Nakime's ability are listed working both the same way, why wouldn't he be able to simply crush it too?

That's also what I believe would happen with Muzan's blood. Even though I believe Mahoraga would be able to develop a counter technique for his blood, I agree that it is impossible to determine what ability he would create (even though he could go on creating new techniques, as his adaptation never stops, and he can create infinite ways of countering one specific ability). But we do know for a fact that, once he adapts to something, he can nullify/destroy/cancel that ability. Maybe, just like agaisnt Gojo, he would be able to remove the bio-hax from Muzan's blood as long as he kept in contact (that was his condition to nullify Infinity). And since Muzan cannot interact with Mahoraga, what would stop Mahoraga from, once he had finished his adaptation process to both Infinity Castle and Muzan's blood, from grabbing Muzan and not letting go, thus letting Sukuna use his domain + Furnace?

 

[MonarchInYellow]

I don't see why Muzan couldn't just figure out how to control ce honestly. He's got six brains iirc, he should easily be capable of rewiring his brains or simply being smart enough to control it

If he knew about it, for sure he could just do it, but Sukuna is not the kind to disclose information about how stuff works. But yeah, since cursed energy and cursed techniques are stored in the brain, if Muzan knew about it, he could simply rewire himself into using it.

 

[Kavopaco]

I agree, but what I mean is, does Muzan frequently apply that in combat? I know someone here sent the page where Muzan instantly pulled everyone into Infinity Castle, but I don't remember him teleporting everyone into it in he final fight. Wouldn't he have won if he kept spamming it like that? I know he couldn't do it after Nakime died, but did he do that when she was alive?

I believe he was busy decomposing Tamayo's Drug, we literally see him in a cocoon, where he stays up until the end of that arc. And when he is finally free, Yushiro starts to control Nakime's manipulation of the Infinity Castle by his BDA (some mental stuff using his papers), which then makes Muzan try to regain his control on her, and then finally he decides to kill her.

 

[MonarchInYellow]

Muzan can just exit the infinity fortress or just teleport Sukuna across the dimension or kick him out of it when he tries to do a malevolent shrine + divine flames combo. (Context Akaza was teleported across the dimension). The Infinity Fortress is practically Muzan's domain expansion.

Oh, I understand. However, I don't think Sukuna would instantly try going for Furnace if he realizes Muzan has control over Infinity Castle. Even though Fire Arrow had enough power to probably kill Gojo, he knew it was too risky and thus he chose not to try it. What I meant at my previous posts was: in a situation where Mahoraga did nullifies/destroys Infinity Castle after adaptating to it (check my previous post where Mahoraga is shown to be able to destroy whatever is connected to an ability he adaptated to, like him destroying Gojo's domain via purely adaptating to it's effect), what really stops Sukuna from going to Furnace? Sukuna, as seen in the Gojo fight, is really fine with playing the long game. That whole fight revolved around Sukuna waiting until Mahoraga's adaptation was finished and he was free to execute his plan. I really see him doing the same here, and in a somewhat easier way, since he doesn't have to worry about his win condition (Mahoraga) getting killed by Muzan.

We honestly do not know how prominent the curses will be against Muzan and we can only assume it'd just weaking him. Taking note of that, Muzan was capable fighting against being jumped by the hashiras and the kamado squad until sunrise despite rapidly weakening due to being drugged and that said drugs having 4 different stages all specifically targeting Muzan's demonic biology (albeit he is capable of removing the drug if given time in a safe area). So we don't know how prominent the curses will be against him.

I understand that. However, wasn't Tamayo's poison quite effective in weakening Muzan? Is there any reason to believe that, if she had a bigger amount of that same poison, she wouldn't be able to weaken him even further? Because that's what I mean. I agree that four or five curses wouldn't be enough to put Muzan down, but since every single attack would be constantly weakening him, piling more and more curses up, is there any reason to believe it won't eventually become too much? Muzan has the ability to adapt to certain things as long as he knows and understands it, but since he cannot see or interact with CE, there's no reason to believe he would be able to adapt his own body to curses. Constantly getting hit by cursed attacks, and getting cursed, from what I know from Muzan and read from his profile, seems to be a really valid and good tactic to weaken him.

Everyone here agrees Muzan gets obliterated by divine flames + domain combo. The issue is that it will never land. It takes too much time to charge that Muzan would either cook him there or just teleport him out of the fortress like lower moon 1.

The infinity fortress is also constantly being sustained/stabilized as the entire dimension is a blood demon art so I don't think destroying the dimension will work. (Refer to the first reply regarding cursing Muzan)

I do understand that, and yeah, Infinity Fortress is honestly Sukuna's biggest trouble here. But my previous post before this is 100% talking about Infinity Castle and how Mahoraga could eventually deal with it (both Domains and Infinity Castle are listed as Pocket Reality Manipulation, and Mahoraga as shown to be able to destroy those before by simply finishing his adaptation to it's effet. So if Muzan affects him, he would adapt and be able to destroy it).

Refer to reply 1 for the curse. Muzan also has a full aoe long range shockwave attack and energy ball that can still heavily damage him with his AP. The range is long enough to reach Kiriya Ubuyashiki. (Im only talking about the AP since Sukuna might be able to resist the seizure effects of the attack).

The divine flames win con would really not happen due to reasons above about how it will never land.

For sure, Muzan's raw AP is also enough to kill Sukuna, but once again, Sukuna doesn't need to fight himself. We know that he, as Meguna, commonly uses hi Shikigamis as shields. He used Mahoraga as a shield agaisnt Maximum Blue, he used Rabbit Escape as a shield agaisnt Red (to buy time for him to enter his shadow). Based on Sukuna's behavior and the way he fights with Ten Shadows, I do believe it to be possible for him to survive this, since he also wouldn't be fighting close range.

This was how Sukuna was fighting when he was able to rely on Mahoraga to do the frontline.

As Gojo states, Sukuna was 100% on the defensive, and the only reason he was also attacking was just to guarantee Mahoraga wasn't destroyed by Gojo (who was capable of killing it in one blow if Sukuna's guard went down).

Sukuna was 100% focusing on fighting in long range, letting Mahoraga take the frontline. And a little after that, Sukuna summoned Agito and 100% left the battlefield so he could simply watch and wait for Mahoraga's adaptation.

He only went back to the battlefield after he saw that Mahoraga had already developed World Slash, and so he had already won at that point. All he had to do was get an opening to use the attack, which he did and was the way he killed Gojo. That's why I really see Sukuna playing this smart. Unlike agaisnt Gojo, he doesn't need to protect Mahoraga, and he isn't someone moved by honor. Fighting and analyzing Muzan would already be fun enough, even more because Infinity Castle and all that Muzan uses would be 100% new to him, so using Mahoraga to analyze and understand how Muzan abilities works would also be his most likely move.