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Lord of the Rings general revision thread: Return of the Thread

Also, for Fingolfin's Stamina segment, we could add it so that he kept fighting even after being heavily injured by Morgoth.
 
I'm also gonna change Khamûl's page and just slap the Nazgûl stats on cuz good lord the poor dude is severely outdated.
 
Eru is the absolute god-tier of the verse, though his exact capabilities are unknown. What is known is that he vastly transcends the Ainur to such a degree that even Manwë, the second strongest of them, views him as all-powerful. He is the source of all concepts and controls them, with the Ainur only being tools for making the world. He is Low 1-C for sustaining the entire reality in his thoughts/mind, as well as exists in a higher state of reality, and repeatedly being described as the author of the story.
Click to expand...

Self explanatory
 
And what about Khamûl's page? Do I change that as well? Mostly just slapping calcs from the Nazgul page onto it.
 
Hsharpe said:
And what about Khamûl's page? Do I change that as well? Mostly just slapping calcs from the Nazgul page onto it.
Click to expand...
Nah, I plan on doing a Nazgûl revision overhaul. Will probably argue Khamûl's page to be deleted since he has nothing special minus being the second strongest + some minor vision stuff.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Sure. Just follow the Fingolfin example and make sure to link this thread as part of the reasoning.

The unhighlighted stuff is outdated abilities and resistances I left unedited in previous revisions to avoid having every page look too identical. They can largely be removed now.
Click to expand...
Okay. That seems fine to me then. 🙏
 
Hey everyone, been a while. Read more of the lore and read some of the stuff from all three threads and first I will say I do like a lot that has been said, not only is it informative power scaling wise but also points out stuff in the lore that's really cool.

That being said, I do have 3 things I want to bring up.

1: This might be more cause of the Tier system rather than the lore, but while Tolkien does say the Universe is an infinite extensions of space and time, this doesn't necessarily mean there Is infinite matter in the Universe. Now, unless the tier system assumes a high 3-A structure automatically also has infinite matter, then this can be ignored. If not, I would say the physical forms of the Valar should be downgraded to just 3-A.

2. The Valar shouldn't be as strong as they were In the beginning of Time when they are on Arda. Outside of Tolkiens statement that implies that they get weaker, the Valar just have too many "anti feats" to really support the idea that they are still universal on Arda, such as combining their power to keep Arda from shattering after the fall of the two lamps.

3. This will be my most controversial point, and thus is something I think all of us glossed over. The Ainur during the Ainulindalë may are not stronger than they were at the beginning of Time. This is the quote I'm referring to:

"The time of Melkor’s greatest power, therefore, was in the physical beginnings of the World; a vast demiurgic lust for power and the achievement of his own will and designs, on a great scale."

I emphasized the important part. Morgoth (who is ofc the strongest Vala) is stated by Tolkien that his strongest was in the physical beginning of the World, aka the beginning of Time, not during the Timeless Halls. Logically, the other Valar follow that logic. I suppose one could argue that "physical beginnings of the world" refer to the Timeless Halls, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Tolkien always equates "World" with Eä, which is the Material Universe according to the index in the Published Silmarillion. Not to mention that technically speaking, nothing was "Physical" in the Timeless Halls, as that had yet to be made. The full context where that statement comes from was describing how Morgoth grew weaker as he spread his essence into the physical world, to top it off.

For us, that seems odd and probably illogical, but it's most likely that Tolkien simply never knew anything about higher dimensions and all that. Dimensional scaling wouldn't really apply to the Ainur going by this quote. The Ainur would still keep higher dimensionality as a power of sorts, but they would be below their physical forms during the beginning of Time. To summarize:

Eä is a high 3A construct, but unless this means it has infinite matter, then the Valar shouldn't be High 3A, just 3A at the beginning of Time. If the current Tier system assumes a high 3A concept has infinite matter though, the Valar should still stay at high 3A at the beginning of Time.

The Valar do grow weaker as time goes on and their feats on Arda show that. If re evaluated, I believe the Valar on Arda should only be multi continental at the most thanks to being able to control entire aspects of Arda like Ulmo and all the water, including the oceans, of Arda.

Morgoth, and ny extension the rest of the Valar, are stated by Tolkien to be at their strongest during the beginning of Time, not during the Timeless Halls. I feel those versions should, at most, be given an Unknown rating, at least Universal/High Universal, if point 1 about a High 3A construct having infinite matter is an automatic assumption In the current tier system.

The only other thing I guess I should point out is the idea that an Ainu like Sauron can just remove their physical form to go into their spirit form to blitz an opponent from another franchise. Not only is this never shown in the lore at all, it's clear that while yes their physical clothes can be shed like clothing for an Incarnate, I don't think Tolkien was being that literal. Going by Sauron and Morgoth, they clearly do not want to be damaged or destroyed in whatever form they take, nor did the Ainur ever use that ability in any meaningful way, such as searching for the Elves when they awoke.

That being said, I do enjoy how much powers and abilities the site has gathered over time. We even get some cool lore bits like the fact that the Elves from Aman always have the light from the two trees shimmering faintly around their bodies and in their eyes.
 
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Phew, finally got to my laptop. This entire thing's been edited now since I have better resources.

Nice to see you back Merchant!

TheMerchant66 said:
Hey everyone, been a while. Read more of the lore and read some of the stuff from all three threads and first I will say I do like a lot that has been said, not only is it informative power scaling wise but also points out stuff in the lore that's really cool.

That being said, I do have 3 things I want to bring up.

1: This might be more cause of the Tier system rather than the lore, but while Tolkien does say the Universe is an infinite extensions of space and time, this doesn't necessarily mean there Is infinite matter in the Universe. Now, unless the tier system assumes a high 3-A structure automatically also has infinite matter, then this can be ignored. If not, I would say the physical forms of the Valar should be downgraded to just 3-A.
Click to expand...
The Valar have vast control of the physical matter of the universe yes, but in brackets, it is clarified that this is in fact referring to the material universe as a whole.
  • "The Valar had a command, great individually, almost complete as a united council, over the physical material of Eä (the material universe)." -The Nature of Middle-Earth, Part Two: Body, Mind and Spirit, XIV The Visible Forms of the Valar and Maiar

A universe they laboured in the construction of, physically speaking that is.
  • "The mythological association of Varda with the stars is of twofold origin. In the 'demiurgic period', before the establishment of Arda 'the Realm', while the Valar in general (including an unnamed host of others who never came to Arda)(1) were labouring in the general construction of Ea (the World or Universe)" - Morgoth's Ring, PART FIVE. MYTHS TRANSFORMED. IV
  • "Then those of the Ainur who desired it arose and entered into the World at the beginning of Time; and it was their task to achieve it, and by their labours to fulfil the vision which they had seen. Long they laboured in the regions of Eä, which are vast beyond the thought of Elves and Men..."- The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA
Moreover, other quotes do clarify that by physical matter, the Ainur had power over not just literal matter, but also the physical, and presumably referring to the material space, structure of the universe as a whole.

  • "Valar [extract] (The name) means 'those with power, the Powers'. But it should more strictly be translated 'the Authorities'. The 'power' of the Valar resided in the 'authority' they had from Eru.They had sufficient 'power' for their functions - that is, vast or godlike power over, and knowledge of, the physical structure of the Universe, and understanding of the designs of Eru. " - Morgoth's Ring, [The 'Tale of Adanel']
Certainly the fact they command the physical structure of the universe itself means it is likely the bounds encompass it.

TheMerchant66 said:
2. The Valar shouldn't be as strong as they were In the beginning of Time when they are on Arda. Outside of Tolkiens statement that implies that they get weaker, the Valar just have too many "anti feats" to really support the idea that they are still universal on Arda, such as combining their power to keep Arda from shattering after the fall of the two lamps.
Click to expand...
Merchant, I believe this was the last topic we discussed back when you were more active.

The Valar are "weaker" but as I said a while back, this is as much to do with the accumulation of weariness and their mandate becoming restricted as it is decline.
  • "The Valar 'fade' and become more impotent, precisely in proportion as the shape and constitution of things becomes more defined and settled. The longer the Past, the more nearly defined the Future, and the less room for important change (untrammelled action, on a physical plane, that is not destructive in purpose). The Past, once 'achieved', has become part of the 'Music in being'. Only Eru may or can alter the 'Music'. The last major effort, of this demiurgic kind, made by the Valar was the lifting up of the range of the Pelori to a great height."
  • Now, to regard this quote on its own regarding the 'fade' of the Valar. They become impotent in proportion to how the world around them becomes "more defined and settled. The longer the Past, the more nearly defined the Future, and the less room for important change"
    • This is not a expression of impotence in power but in action. Tolkien's world is one in which "untramelled action" becomes less achievable as time passes. Important changes are not physically allowed, presumably another of Eru's inviolable laws.
    • However, "...that is not destructive in purpose" is also present. Hence why Gandalf and the Balrog can yet shatter a mountainside and crown it in storms.
    • Regardless, we are told the Valar grow "weaker" because they are not allowed to act. Less because of any decrease in power. And moreover, their destructive ability remains intact.
  • Hence they are not "weaker" in a way that is relevant here. In-verse, technically yes, but also no.
Moreover, their Antifeats are present, all of the Legendarium has it (orcs being a threat to Finrod and Feanor). However, their Demiurgic actions are still ongoing following the lamps.

The Lamps did not just cause a physical destruction, they marred the world down the metaphysical level. Not necessarily in the scale of casuing Arda Marred, it was marred in conception and realised in Melkor's descent, but in the end of the Spring of Arda
  • "That stronghold was named Utumno. And though the Valar knew naught of it as yet, nonetheless the evil of Melkor and the blight of his hatred flowed out thence, and the Spring of Arda was marred. Green things fell sick and rotted, and rivers were choked with weeds and slime, and fens were made, rank and poisonous, the breeding place of flies; and forests grew dark and perilous, the haunts of fear; and beasts became monsters of horn and ivory and dyed the earth with blood" - The Silmarillion, Chapter 1: OF THE BEGINNING OF DAYS
  • "....he assailed the lights of Illuin and Ormal, and cast down their pillars and broke their lamps. In the overthrow of the mighty pillars lands were broken and seas arose in tumult; and when the lamps were spilled destroying flame was poured out over the Earth. And the shape of Arda and the symmetry of its waters and its lands was marred in that time, so that the first designs of the Valar were never after restored..." - The Silmarillion, Chapter 1: OF THE BEGINNING OF DAYS
    • "Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him – So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil." - Letter 246
    • "...Valinor became more beautiful even than Middle-earth in the Spring of Arda; and it was blessed, for the Deathless dwelt there, and there naught faded nor withered, neither was there any stain upon flower or leaf in that land, nor any corruption or sickness in anything that lived; for the very stones and waters were hallowed."
    • - The Silmarillion, Chapter 1: OF THE BEGINNING OF DAYS
Even so, the Lamps predate Varda forging Constellations and such, they are not hard limits.

Regarding weariness before I move on
  • The Valar having entered Arda, and being therein confined within its life, must also suffer (while therein and being as it were its spirit, as the fëa is to the hröa of the Incarnate) its slow ageing - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part One, IV TIME SCALES
I refer to the fact they, as now temporally bound beings, will have to suffer experiences within time. This can be literal weakening and ageing (Istari former and Morgoth latter) but the main thing for them is that they must now experience. It's literal weariness.

Fundamentally, Ainur do not weaken without cause either and they do not have a cause like the Elves do. In fact they recover their power
  • "Melkor was not Sauron. We speak of him being 'weakened, shrunken, reduced'; but this is in comparison with the great Valar. He had been a being of immense potency and life. The Elves certainly held and taught that fear or 'spirits' may grow of their own life (independently of the body), even as they may be hurt and healed, be diminished and renewed.(11) The dark spirit of Melkor's 'remainder' might be expected, there- fore, eventually and after long ages to increase again, even (as some held) to draw back into itself some of its formerly dissipated power. It would do this (even if Sauron could not) because of its relative greatness. It did not repent, or turn finally away from its obsession, but retained still relics of wisdom, so that it could still seek its object indirectly, and not merely blindly. It would rest, seek to heal itself, distract itself by other thoughts and desires and devices - but all simply to recover enough strength to return to the attack on the Valar, and to its old obsession. As it grew again it would become, as it were, a dark shadow, brooding on the confines of Arda, and yearning towards it." - Morgoth's Ring: PART FIVE. Text VII
    • Sauron likely could not due to the extent of his downfall
      • "Sauron's own being would be diminished to vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will." - Letter 131
TheMerchant66 said:
3. This will be my most controversial point, and thus is something I think all of us glossed over. The Ainur during the Ainulindalë may are not stronger than they were at the beginning of Time. This is the quote I'm referring to:

"The time of Melkor’s greatest power, therefore, was in the physical beginnings of the World; a vast demiurgic lust for power and the achievement of his own will and designs, on a great scale."

I emphasized the important part. Morgoth (who is ofc the strongest Vala) is stated by Tolkien that his strongest was in the physical beginning of the World, aka the beginning of Time, not during the Timeless Halls. Logically, the other Valar follow that logic. I suppose one could argue that "physical beginnings of the world" refer to the Timeless Halls, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Tolkien always equates "World" with Eä, which is the Material Universe according to the index in the Published Silmarillion. Not to mention that technically speaking, nothing was "Physical" in the Timeless Halls, as that had yet to be made. The full context where that statement comes from was describing how Morgoth grew weaker as he spread his essence into the physical world, to top it off.

For us, that seems odd and probably illogical, but it's most likely that Tolkien simply never knew anything about higher dimensions and all that. Dimensional scaling wouldn't really apply to the Ainur going by this quote. The Ainur would still keep higher dimensionality as a power of sorts, but they would be below their physical forms during the beginning of Time. To summarize:

Eä is a high 3A construct, but unless this means it has infinite matter, then the Valar shouldn't be High 3A, just 3A at the beginning of Time. If the current Tier system assumes a high 3A concept has infinite matter though, the Valar should still stay at high 3A at the beginning of Time.

The Valar do grow weaker as time goes on and their feats on Arda show that. If re evaluated, I believe the Valar on Arda should only be multi continental at the most thanks to being able to control entire aspects of Arda like Ulmo and all the water, including the oceans, of Arda.

Morgoth, and ny extension the rest of the Valar, are stated by Tolkien to be at their strongest during the beginning of Time, not during the Timeless Halls. I feel those versions should, at most, be given an Unknown rating, at least Universal/High Universal, if point 1 about a High 3A construct having infinite matter is an automatic assumption In the current tier system.
Click to expand...
I addressed 3 already in the relevant thread, but I will say that this line of argument treds into an argument from incredulity. Did Tolkien think of higher dimensions and such while writing the Legendarium? Maybe, maybe not in the way we consider them. But Heaven and Hell have long been seen as cosmologically higher and lower planes and Tolkien very much followed this viewpoint. But this matters little as the World follows the Ainur, the Ainur do not follow the World.

Statements about the World and Physical Ainur are irrelevant to the Ainur in their origin.

Statements about them being stronger in the beginning of time are irrelevant to their origin as we know they have become bound at this point. Time and space are limits upon them. It is important to seperate the Ainur before and prior their descent due to this. Tolkien makes this seperation himself does this with speed for example as much as he does when outling their descent.

I will say that going spiritual mid-fight is oc of them, if it is a habit of theirs at least
"“It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the ‘self-arrayed’ desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (as is said in the tongues of both Elves and Men) a ‘habit’, a customary garb." - The Nature of Middle-Earth, Part Two: Body, Mind and Spirit, IX Ósanwe-kenta

but it is something they do in retreat, as Sauron did to following the Downfall.
  • "Sauron, sitting in his black seat in the midst of the Temple...was taken in the midst of his mirth, and his seat and his temple fell into the abyss. But Sauron was not of mortal flesh... his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home." - The Silmarillion: Akallabêth

But yes it is not usually a midfight tactic for a lot of them like Sauron.


TheMerchant66 said:
The only other thing I guess I should point out is the idea that an Ainu like Sauron can just remove their physical form to go into their spirit form to blitz an opponent from another franchise. Not only is this never shown in the lore at all, it's clear that while yes their physical clothes can be shed like clothing for an Incarnate, I don't think Tolkien was being that literal. Going by Sauron and Morgoth, they clearly do not want to be damaged or destroyed in whatever form they take, nor did the Ainur ever use that ability in any meaningful way, such as searching for the Elves when they awoke.

That being said, I do enjoy how much powers and abilities the site has gathered over time. We even get some cool lore bits like the fact that the Elves from Aman always have the light from the two trees shimmering faintly around their bodies and in their eyes.
Click to expand...


Also, arguments from incredulity really do gripe me and this one veers too much into that. There are too many direct quotes for us to dismiss this and frankly, I already had my quibbles towards Death Battle about this:
  • "The Quendi, being immortal within Arda, also aged with Arda as regards their hröar; but since, unlike the Valar whose true life was not corporeal and who assumed bodily forms at their own will as raiment, the being of the Quendi was incarnate, and consisted naturally of the union of a fëa and a hröa, this ageing was felt chiefly in the hröa." - The Nature of Middle-Earth, Part One: Time and Aging, III Of Time in Arda
  • "... unlike the Valar, whose true life was not corporeal and who assumed bodily forms at will as raiment..." - The Nature of Middle-Earth, Part One: Time and Aging, IV Time-Scales
  • "The High Elves distinguished clearly between fanar, the “physical” raiment adopted by the Spirits in self-incarnation, as a mode of communication with the Incarnates" - The Nature of Middle-Earth, Part Two: Body, Mind, and Spirit, VII MIND-PICTURES
  • "...owing to close relations of the Eldar in Valinor with the Valar and other lesser spirits of their order, fana developed a special sense. It was applied to the visible bodily forms adopted by these spirits, when they took up their abode on Earth, as the normal “raiment” of their otherwise invisible being." - The Nature of Middle-Earth, Chapter XIV THE VISIBLE FORMS OF THE VALAR AND MAIAR
  • "Valar; as was seen in the case of Aulë and the making of the Dwarves, or above all in the delight that the Valar had to make for themselves forms like to those of Men and Elves (according to their foresight, or to their actual sight later). These forms were to them, as it were, their most favoured raiment, in which they most often (but not always) were clothed." - The Nature of Middle-Earth: Part Three, III Powers of the Valar
  • Heck, it's in the glossery of NOME, "fana, pl. fanar visible ‘raiment’ of the Valar and Maiar"

Moreover, this is how Olorin goes about Elves without a body while later mingling with them as a seeming fellow elf.
  • "Olórin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them" - Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA
  • "Yavanna... Some there are who have seen her standing like a tree under heaven, crowned with the Sun" - Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA
  • "Ulmo is the Lord of Waters.... he does not love to walk upon land, and will seldom clothe himself in a body after the manner of his peers." - Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA
I will also add Morgoth and Sauron have very specific reasons they don't go "spiritual" mid fight.

Morgoth can't by the time he fights Fingolfin, he is physically bound (and this is mentioned on profile). Sauron and the others will have their reasons detailed in a further revision, but the Balrogs are likely also physically bound or stuck in a similar boat.

One final thing, Immeasurable speed is the upper end of what spirits can move at. They can choose to move at any speed of motion, they don't always choose to move at speeds transcending time (partly because changing past or future events don't affect the present in the Legendarium) and partly because Tolkien probably wasn't thinking too much about powerscaling vs writing a good story.
 
Last edited:
LegendariumOfLies said:
TL;DR - Tolkien was more interested in telling a story than powerscaling which can lead to some...questionable moments.
Click to expand...
Yeah, though in this particular case, the issue is more that you need to read thousands of pages and everyone has a different opinion because of so much lore to read.
 
Last edited:
Okay. Thank you for helping out. 🙏
 
Not sure if this'll help traction, but this is a worthwhile thread to look at and this is the mega-thread for LotR revisions.

vsbattles.com

Lord Of the Rings AP, Speed, and LS Upgrades

Recently, I have re-read the hobbit and have made two calc compilations here and here. Both have been accepted and upgrade the verse massively. Attack Potency Upgrades Gimli and Legolas should be upgraded to 937.2812 Kilojoules. Gimli currently scales to Thorin – the dwarf who is responsible...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
"Done" with the blog post. This is just part 1, and as said in the blog focuses on the Ainur (excluding some) and some of the creatures. This part pretty much has no ability additions (except for Gothmog and the Balrogs) and was primarily focused on "updating" the appearance of several of the profiles.

Summary of the changes:
  • Removed redundant abilities on the pages (since many were included in the Ainur blog)
  • Updated text formatting to current wiki standards
  • Changed some of the images. This one was mostly an attempt to get art that at least looked similar to each other and more "modern".
So, as you can see, not really a revision of the content itself. Kinda just wanted the profiles to look a bit more modern. Part 2 will cover more of the ability additions for the remaining characters, if any, along with updating their formatting!

vsbattles.fandom.com

Rework Pt 1

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
Last edited:
I have finished with Part 2 and thus the reformatting is done. Please let me know whether you agree with passing these two parts, or whether you would like a formatting addition. As of right now, I have decided off on doing an ability addition section due to time constraints, so this should all hopefully be pretty straightforward! I don't have tagging perms, so if there are some people I should message on their wall to maybe see if they want to pass this lmk.

Summary of Changes:
*Essentially the same as above

Blogs:
vsbattles.fandom.com

Rework Pt 1

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
vsbattles.fandom.com

LoTR Profile Rework Pt 2

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
Grand_Astartes said:
I have finished with Part 2 and thus the reformatting is done. Please let me know whether you agree with passing these two parts, or whether you would like a formatting addition. As of right now, I have decided off on doing an ability addition section due to time constraints, so this should all hopefully be pretty straightforward! I don't have tagging perms, so if there are some people I should message on their wall to maybe see if they want to pass this lmk.

Summary of Changes:
*Essentially the same as above

Blogs:
vsbattles.fandom.com

Rework Pt 1

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
vsbattles.fandom.com

LoTR Profile Rework Pt 2

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
Click to expand...
Only one question: Why is Khamul still Unknown? Wouldn't he scale off the other regular Nazgul?
 
Hsharpe said:
Only one question: Why is Khamul still Unknown? Wouldn't he scale off the other regular Nazgul?
Click to expand...
I have no idea tbh. I just left it that way because I mostly wanted to focus on the formatting, but I could probably draft up some new justifications for him if the format changes pass.
 
Bump (Are there any mods that are still interested in LoTR that I should leave a message for on their wall, even though this is a format revision?)
 
Grand_Astartes said:
I have no idea tbh. I just left it that way because I mostly wanted to focus on the formatting, but I could probably draft up some new justifications for him if the format changes pass.
Click to expand...
Ah, Khamul. I believe I was going to suggest his profile be deleted. There's not really anything that unique about him. He's got a bit more of an extreme light weakness in exchange for a buff in tracking the One Ring and is second only to the Witch-King, but is not stronger in the same notable way the Witch-King is to the others.

On the flipside, I'm regretting deleting the Ainur race sheet. I think it would have been better to have rather than every single Vala having a individual page that is mostly the same.
 
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