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One Piece General Discussion: Elbaph
- Thread starter KingTempest
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I'm talking about manga, not the anime version. Multiple meteors were summoned in the manga. If the lead meteors noticeably slowed down, the ones behind them would have slammed into them. Anime changed the nature of the scene and can't be used.
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uhh no, not if they were besides one another... They clearly aren't all lined up
This panel literally confirms that, they don't land on top of each other and are besides one another
The showings, the sfx and the statements of the characters all points to the birdcage having slowed down the meteors and are freefalling
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I still don't think the visuals of the manga show them slowing, nor do statements support it. But I'll drop it for now. This isn't the thread for an argument over it.
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Eh, depends on the context.
And tbf, Oda kinda messed things up by making Katakuri, a 1st commander who by all means should be on the level of King and Marco, weaker than the goddamn Tobiroppo.
Makes me wish that fancomic of a weakened Katakuri beating Blackbeard's commanders and being willing to throw hands with Blackbeard himself was canon.
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,832
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Lol, no, I'm pretty sure most people no longer seriously place Katakuri anywhere near the strength and speed of even the weakest Admiral.
However, I do feel like Katakuri is getting way too downplayed at present time, making him weaker than even a Tobiroppo, which personally i no longer believe it.
I do feel that many people either didn’t properly read the story or just took many scenes/panels out of context.
This made the Wanoìs power creep seem even larger than it truly is in reality. Not to say there wasn’t any, but people have really been exaggerating.
Because no, Katakuri isn't getting defeated by Ulti, especially when Perospero had arguably better showing than most Tobiroppo.
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Scratchmen Apoo vs X Drake
Starting distance: 25m Battle takes place in the Roof Piece zone Apoo: Drake: Incon:
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One Piece: A Handful of Things
1. Monster Hody Jones and the Energy Pills The lowest High 6-C's scale to 150.745702676 Gigatons as per this thread, but that value is incorrect. That number comes from Hody Jones' accepted 4x multiplier from his Overdosed to his Monster forms based on the amount of energy steroid pills he...
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Alright, so I decided to try my own hand at how many pills Hody would've consumed, and I got about....427 pills using a half-ellipsoid model. Thats about a 3.5e+128 times boost, so.....this would probably be an outlier, to say the least. Then again, I'm not the best at math, so it's totally possible I messed up completely here.
Hasty12345
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seems ok to me, apply the changes.
Chaos868
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Question, how is luffy only relativistic speed on his emperor account when he can keep up with and outspeed kizaru in gear 5th? I mean he can react and even land punches in with kizaru not being able to react or dodge his gear 5 attacks.
Edit: wait i just saw it updated mb..
Edit: wait i just saw it updated mb..
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Some extremely unfortunate bad news for the future and quality of the amazing live-action show. 
deadline.com
‘One Piece’ Co-Showrunner Matt Owens Exits Netflix Series Citing Mental Health Reasons
Matt Owens, the main creative force behind Netflix's One Piece, is leaving the live-action series, which wrapped production on Season 2 last month.
deadline.com
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Kaido is coming back.
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What do you mean?
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I'm just prophesyingWhat do you mean?
, since there's a big connection with Kaido and elbaph, his father probably being Harald and Loki's brother and stuffAnd then there's some big war that will happen stated by Oda? So kaido coming back for that make sense as well kinda
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Kaido is coming back.
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Lol in terms of pure scaling Katakuri lands solidly below Ulti (who somehow got captured by Who's-Who so seemingly not even the strongest Tobi Roppo(
->Katakuri pummels Luffy for 10 hours and doesnt manage to beat him (plus shows that Boundman CoA >>>> Kat CoA, he could barely handle Snakeman CoA)
->Kaido's base, drunk, barely trying Thunder Bagua one-taps WCI Luffy (so it outscales every single move Kat did combined in 10+ hours)
->Wano Luffy and Yamato who can both tank and also clash with that move, pummel Ulti and she was still going and it took a named Yonko attack to the dome for Ulti to go down.
->Wano Luffy is also astronomically faster and stronger than WCI Boundman and Ulti could fight him and deadass had this man consider Gear 4. Based on WCI showings alone (not bounty/yonko portrayal/anything else) Wano Luffy would completely smoke Katakuri in base, with eyes closed, not even thinking about Gear 4.
If we take Wano portrayal for what it seems, WCI Luffy would get near instantly defeated by any Tobi Roppo whereas Katakuri clearly struggled to put Luffy down even before the stab/outside factors. Which also now that i think about it mean every Straw Hat who beat them scales above WCI Luffy in some way lol (makes no sense but it is what it is).
I personally think that there's more than mere number scaling to One Piece; Katakuri is one of the most versatile and experienced fighters we know of, and he's not YC1 as a joke. Could he beat Ulti? Scaling says no, story and portrayal says yes. But its pretty clear that Wano is a completely different level of strength than WCI; If Luffy after Zou had tried raiding Onigashima instead of Whole Cake Island, the Tobi Roppo would mop up the entire raid before the All-Stars even got to do anything.
There are further reasons to explain why Katakuri has worse feats than a Tobi Roppo;
- He downscales really hard from Kaido no-diffing a Luffy who defeated Katakuri and made Kat call him his equal (when its entirely possible although unlikely, he would perform better or at least not get blitzed+one-shot+ratio'd by drunk barely trying Kaido.
- Luffy could have been barely trying vs Tobi Roppo (this is somewhat contradicted by the fact Luffy thought he needed G4 for Ulti but whatever)
- Kat's only fight is against Luffy so if after 10+ hours he doesnt defeat someone inferior to him in every regard, it just looks bad and leaves him with 0 AP feats despite all the talking up/portrayal that Oda gives Kat. Plus Luffys endurance in that fight was downright illogical (after Luffy is stabbed in the torso, he was shown out of energy, falling down on his own. 2 min later he does a CoC clash, a few hours of exhaustive combat later he somehow has enough energy left to go Gear 4).
- Sometimes characters just get completely illogical defeats handed to them. Look at Crocodile losing to Pre-Gears Luffy and then looking like a living legend in Marineford. Or Law who somehow went from weaker than Doffy in Dressrosa (who was later mogged in every category by a YC3, Cracker) to G O D in Wano.
I don't know what those would be? He never damaged Marco like King and Queen did, and Nekomamushi he only encountered after he'd taken a beating from Kaido and was very exhausted from using Sulong (the form was stated to be extremely taxing and Minks have died after using it once). And even then still lost to extreme-exhaustion Sulong Neko very easily.
Kat vs Ulti like i said depends entirely if you go with Haki scaling saying Ulti >>> WCI Luffy >= Kat, or the plot saying "this is a YC1 going up against a <YC3"
All other factors like CoO, intelligence, experience aside im not sure how he damages Ulti if Katakuri/WCI Luffy's strongest hits they can do cannot even move Kaido, and multiple characters who can more than damage Kaido (Wano Luffy, Yamato, Big Mom) absolutely pummel Ulti with named attacks, aCoC, etc. and she's still standing.
Yep. The weakest Admiral neg-diffed King and Queen so hard that the Toei anime turned King into a mummy to cover for them. Dude would one shot Katakuri.
Ped2018
He/Him- 5,287
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Cooked KatakuriLol in terms of pure scaling Katakuri lands solidly below Ulti (who somehow got captured by Who's-Who so seemingly not even the strongest Tobi Roppo(im still in denial until i see on-screen proof of Whos Who beating Ulti)).
->Katakuri pummels Luffy for 10 hours and doesnt manage to beat him (plus shows that Boundman CoA >>>> Kat CoA, he could barely handle Snakeman CoA)
->Kaido's base, drunk, barely trying Thunder Bagua one-taps WCI Luffy (so it outscales every single move Kat did combined in 10+ hours)
->Wano Luffy and Yamato who can both tank and also clash with that move, pummel Ulti and she was still going and it took a named Yonko attack to the dome for Ulti to go down.
->Wano Luffy is also astronomically faster and stronger than WCI Boundman and Ulti could fight him and deadass had this man consider Gear 4. Based on WCI showings alone (not bounty/yonko portrayal/anything else) Wano Luffy would completely smoke Katakuri in base, with eyes closed, not even thinking about Gear 4.
If we take Wano portrayal for what it seems, WCI Luffy would get near instantly defeated by any Tobi Roppo whereas Katakuri clearly struggled to put Luffy down even before the stab/outside factors. Which also now that i think about it mean every Straw Hat who beat them scales above WCI Luffy in some way lol (makes no sense but it is what it is).
I personally think that there's more than mere number scaling to One Piece; Katakuri is one of the most versatile and experienced fighters we know of, and he's not YC1 as a joke. Could he beat Ulti? Scaling says no, story and portrayal says yes. But its pretty clear that Wano is a completely different level of strength than WCI; If Luffy after Zou had tried raiding Onigashima instead of Whole Cake Island, the Tobi Roppo would mop up the entire raid before the All-Stars even got to do anything.
There are further reasons to explain why Katakuri has worse feats than a Tobi Roppo;
- He downscales really hard from Kaido no-diffing a Luffy who defeated Katakuri and made Kat call him his equal (when its entirely possible although unlikely, he would perform better or at least not get blitzed+one-shot+ratio'd by drunk barely trying Kaido.
- Luffy could have been barely trying vs Tobi Roppo (this is somewhat contradicted by the fact Luffy thought he needed G4 for Ulti but whatever)
- Kat's only fight is against Luffy so if after 10+ hours he doesnt defeat someone inferior to him in every regard, it just looks bad and leaves him with 0 AP feats despite all the talking up/portrayal that Oda gives Kat. Plus Luffys endurance in that fight was downright illogical (after Luffy is stabbed in the torso, he was shown out of energy, falling down on his own. 2 min later he does a CoC clash, a few hours of exhaustive combat later he somehow has enough energy left to go Gear 4).
- Sometimes characters just get completely illogical defeats handed to them. Look at Crocodile losing to Pre-Gears Luffy and then looking like a living legend in Marineford. Or Law who somehow went from weaker than Doffy in Dressrosa (who was later mogged in every category by a YC3, Cracker) to G O D in Wano.
I don't know what those would be? He never damaged Marco like King and Queen did, and Nekomamushi he only encountered after he'd taken a beating from Kaido and was very exhausted from using Sulong (the form was stated to be extremely taxing and Minks have died after using it once). And even then still lost to extreme-exhaustion Sulong Neko very easily.
Kat vs Ulti like i said depends entirely if you go with Haki scaling saying Ulti >>> WCI Luffy >= Kat, or the plot saying "this is a YC1 going up against a <YC3"
All other factors like CoO, intelligence, experience aside im not sure how he damages Ulti if Katakuri/WCI Luffy's strongest hits they can do cannot even move Kaido, and multiple characters who can more than damage Kaido (Wano Luffy, Yamato, Big Mom) absolutely pummel Ulti with named attacks, aCoC, etc. and she's still standing.
Yep. The weakest Admiral neg-diffed King and Queen so hard that the Toei anime turned King into a mummy to cover for them. Dude would one shot Katakuri.
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this is sadnessLol in terms of pure scaling Katakuri lands solidly below Ulti (who somehow got captured by Who's-Who so seemingly not even the strongest Tobi Roppo(im still in denial until i see on-screen proof of Whos Who beating Ulti)).
->Katakuri pummels Luffy for 10 hours and doesnt manage to beat him (plus shows that Boundman CoA >>>> Kat CoA, he could barely handle Snakeman CoA)
->Kaido's base, drunk, barely trying Thunder Bagua one-taps WCI Luffy (so it outscales every single move Kat did combined in 10+ hours)
->Wano Luffy and Yamato who can both tank and also clash with that move, pummel Ulti and she was still going and it took a named Yonko attack to the dome for Ulti to go down.
->Wano Luffy is also astronomically faster and stronger than WCI Boundman and Ulti could fight him and deadass had this man consider Gear 4. Based on WCI showings alone (not bounty/yonko portrayal/anything else) Wano Luffy would completely smoke Katakuri in base, with eyes closed, not even thinking about Gear 4.
If we take Wano portrayal for what it seems, WCI Luffy would get near instantly defeated by any Tobi Roppo whereas Katakuri clearly struggled to put Luffy down even before the stab/outside factors. Which also now that i think about it mean every Straw Hat who beat them scales above WCI Luffy in some way lol (makes no sense but it is what it is).
I personally think that there's more than mere number scaling to One Piece; Katakuri is one of the most versatile and experienced fighters we know of, and he's not YC1 as a joke. Could he beat Ulti? Scaling says no, story and portrayal says yes. But its pretty clear that Wano is a completely different level of strength than WCI; If Luffy after Zou had tried raiding Onigashima instead of Whole Cake Island, the Tobi Roppo would mop up the entire raid before the All-Stars even got to do anything.
There are further reasons to explain why Katakuri has worse feats than a Tobi Roppo;
- He downscales really hard from Kaido no-diffing a Luffy who defeated Katakuri and made Kat call him his equal (when its entirely possible although unlikely, he would perform better or at least not get blitzed+one-shot+ratio'd by drunk barely trying Kaido.
- Luffy could have been barely trying vs Tobi Roppo (this is somewhat contradicted by the fact Luffy thought he needed G4 for Ulti but whatever)
- Kat's only fight is against Luffy so if after 10+ hours he doesnt defeat someone inferior to him in every regard, it just looks bad and leaves him with 0 AP feats despite all the talking up/portrayal that Oda gives Kat. Plus Luffys endurance in that fight was downright illogical (after Luffy is stabbed in the torso, he was shown out of energy, falling down on his own. 2 min later he does a CoC clash, a few hours of exhaustive combat later he somehow has enough energy left to go Gear 4).
- Sometimes characters just get completely illogical defeats handed to them. Look at Crocodile losing to Pre-Gears Luffy and then looking like a living legend in Marineford. Or Law who somehow went from weaker than Doffy in Dressrosa (who was later mogged in every category by a YC3, Cracker) to G O D in Wano.
I don't know what those would be? He never damaged Marco like King and Queen did, and Nekomamushi he only encountered after he'd taken a beating from Kaido and was very exhausted from using Sulong (the form was stated to be extremely taxing and Minks have died after using it once). And even then still lost to extreme-exhaustion Sulong Neko very easily.
Kat vs Ulti like i said depends entirely if you go with Haki scaling saying Ulti >>> WCI Luffy >= Kat, or the plot saying "this is a YC1 going up against a <YC3"
All other factors like CoO, intelligence, experience aside im not sure how he damages Ulti if Katakuri/WCI Luffy's strongest hits they can do cannot even move Kaido, and multiple characters who can more than damage Kaido (Wano Luffy, Yamato, Big Mom) absolutely pummel Ulti with named attacks, aCoC, etc. and she's still standing.
Yep. The weakest Admiral neg-diffed King and Queen so hard that the Toei anime turned King into a mummy to cover for them. Dude would one shot Katakuri.
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,832
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Wano Luffy only truly started clashing on par with Kaido the moment he unlocked his Advanced CoA. Before that, he was still portrayed as much inferior to Kaido.
As no one on the rooftop had the necessary strength to meaningfully damage Kaido with their regular AP. They had to rely on their durability negation to properly harm them.
The only one who could truly unleash attacks on their level was Zoro, simply thanks to Enma. However, that could only help to a certain extent, as even with it, Zoro could barely hold off a combined attack from the two emperors.
While the combined force of Law, Kidd, Zoro, and Luffy was able to pressure Kaido and Big Mom into taking things more seriously, they never forced them to use their full power—or at least not in Kaido’s case. Even after Law and Kidd managed to BFR Big Mom, Kaido alone proceeded to stomp both Law and Zoro at the same time.
Only when Luffy unlocked his Advanced CoA did his power grow enough for him to fight Kaido alone. Even then, we know that Kaido was not yet using his full strength.
Post Advanced CoA Luffy its a complete different league of strength compare to Pre Advanced CoA Luffy, a league which Ulti should not scale at all.
Frankly, looking at her performance, Ulti barely scales to Luffy. They only briefly clashed before Base Luffy speed-blitzed Ulti the moment he started taking her more seriously. He then proceeded to knock out her brother, and Ulti was only able to grab Luffy when he was distracted. Luffy decided to use Gear 4th to finish her quickly.
Nothing suggests that Luffy necessarily needed Gear 4th because Ulti was just as strong as Gear 4th, especially when a single Gear 3rd attack was enough to knock out her brother, and its not like the gap between brother and sister its that high.
And this makes sense, as Luffy's objective was to reach the rooftop, and he needed to conserve his stamina for the upcoming battle with Kaido. He couldn't afford to waste too much time and energy, to the point that Jinbe and Sanji decided to assist him so he wouldn't have to deal with even fodder pirates, ensuring Luffy remained in peak condition.
Also the notion of Post Udon Base Luffy > WCI Gear 4th Luffy its also questionable.
Like I said before, even after his training in Udon, Luffy was still portrayed as much weaker than Kaido. He needed to rely on his advanced Armament Haki to harm him, while Kaido's regular attacks hurt him badly.
In terms of speed, he didn’t perform so much better.
Sure he did initially hit him with a Red Roc, but Kaido wasn't not taking him seriously yet, the moment he did Luffy only barely dodge his Thunder Bagua, admitting that even with Future Vision he still end up getting hit by the attack.
And the after that Law needed to use his room to teleport Luffy before getting him by Kaido, as he was too distracted and he wouldn't had be able to dodge him.
It can also be argued that due to Luffy's anger during his first fight with Kaido (since he truly believed Kaido had just killed his crew and friends), he couldn’t properly use his Future Vision, as Katakuri himself stated that it requid a clear mind to properly use it.
Getting low-diffed by an exhausted Sulong Neko isn't that bad of a look when an extremely exhausted Sulong Inu did the same thing to Jack. Unlike the former, the latter had the benefit of an Ancient Zoan, which granted him greater endurance and healing, allowing him to sustain more damage than other characters.
Besides the mere fact that Perospero initially survived a beating from an exhausted Sulong Neko (long enough for the moon to be covered by clouds), it's already impressive when Jack himself stated that even when mortally wounded, the Red Scabbards would have been too strong for the Tobiroppo to handle.
And even if you dismiss that, it's not like this was Perospero's only feat in the arc. His overall performance would place his strength somewhere between Tobiroppo level and YC3 level, at minimum making him on par with the strongest Tobiroppo.
- Fought Sulong Carrot and Sulong Wanda for an extended period, long enough for the moon to be clouded, which ultimately gave him the edge. This isn’t something to overlook, considering that the Mink Army in their Sulong forms managed to fight off Jack, his Gifters, and one of the Numbers. While they were ultimately defeated, their combined power still managed to injure Jack quite a bit before Neko and Inu took their place.
- Harmed Monster Point Chopper with his arrows, the same Chopper who was able to make Zoan Queen bleed. Sure, Queen himself stated that he was holding back, and the moment he started fighting seriously, Chopper was getting badly beaten. However, somehow this was enough for Chopper to be considered Continent level, potentially Moon level, no matter how absurd that may seem. If that's the case, then Perospero should also at least downscale to 6-A.
Base Kaido with Advanced Conqueror's Haki no-diffing Luffy doesn’t necessarily mean anything. I doubt anyone besides King would be durable enough to take a Thunder Bagua and not be knocked out or at least not get seriously injured—and King can only do that because of his Lunarian physiology.
And it’s not like Whole Cake Island Gear 4th Luffy’s AP is trash—not when he managed to force Big Mom to use her Armament Haki to clash with him. While before, when he was in Gear 3rd, Big Mom was simply using her natural strength to counter him. Sure, he was forced to revert to base, but this doesn’t change the fact that Big Mom had to put effort when dealing with Gear 4th Luffy.
Now, compare that to Queen, who was getting overpowered by an amnesiac Big Mom who wasn’t even using her Devil Fruit powers or Haki. The only time he actually affected her was with a surprise attack from above, which made her regain her memories. Once she unleashed her true strength, Queen was terrified, realizing that she had been holding back the entire time and that he had no chance of defeating her.
Now, I’m not necessarily suggesting that Whole Cake Island Gear 4th Luffy is outright stronger than Queen, but when comparing their performances, Luffy actually managed to push Big Mom more than Queen ever could, no matter how hard he tried.
And Katakuri was still physically strong enough to took hits from that version of Luffy and even harm him with his devil fruit. So, even if you think he scales below Luffy, at worst, that would still put his attack power and durability at a level comparable to Jack and Queen—if not higher. After all, even Cracker managed to harm Whole Cake Island Gear 4th Luffy and fight him for an extended period of time.
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Katakuri does not scale below Ulti and Jinbe was canonically weaker than him meaning Who's Who is weaker as well.
Katakuri's Armament Haki > Boundman Armament Haki.
Katakuri's Armament Haki also > Snakeman Armament Haki.
Katakuri knocked Luffy out and brought him to a near-unconscious state several times throughout their battle so Thunder Bagua can't be directly scaled above all of his attacks like that. It scales above Katakuri's AP for other reasons, but this definitely is not one of them.
Neither Luffy nor Yamato was able to clash or tank a Thunder Bagua. Luffy even when trying to dodge it still ended up getting hit away with blood pouring out his head. Yamato didn't clash with it considering what her and Kaidou did was a dual exchange more akin to what Garp and Kuzan did. She didn't tank it either since despite putting all her energy into trying to block she "came nowhere close" and was still left bleeding from the wound trembling in pain.
Luffy and Yamato barely even fought Ulti so I have no idea where them "pummeling" her came from. Luffy had a single clash with her and Yamato hit her with one attack (which knocked her out). Yamato was also in base compared to her Hybrid form which she used to fight Kaidou. Maser Cannon completely pulverized her internal organs and she could barely stand afterwards so using that to scale Ulti is ridiculous.
WCI Boundman is faster than the version of Luffy that Ulti fought. Not too sure where you got that idea from. Regardless, Ulti hit base Luffy and immediately went into her Zoan form because of how strong he and his haki were. Just to get blitzed right after.
You're literally wrong lmao. WCI Luffy would defeat any of the Tobiroppo in a fight with relative ease.
Luffy didn't "force" Big Mom to use Armament Haki, lmao. Luffy in Gear 4th can't really be hurt by non-Haki attacks otherwise they'd just bounce off of him. Luffy got knocked out of Boundman right after. Big Mom also didn't counter Gear 3rd Luffy, it was the other way around. She wasn't even aware of his presence there as it was an attack meant for Reiju.
Your Queen arguments are also just blatantly incorrect. Queen didn't fight back against Big Mom so he wasn't "overpowered." Big Mom's attacks didn't even end up leaving lasting damage and he was more harmed by the bomb that exploded on him afterwards (which forced him to get up from pretending to be injured by Big Mom's attacks).
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,832
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Why would Big Mom then use Armament Haki (or better, harden her body further) if Gear 4th Luffy wouldn't have been able to hurt her?
If she thought it was necessary to increase her defense to stop his Kong Gun, it would suggest that Gear 4th Luffy's AP is more impressive than we think.
And sure, Big Mom still knocked out of Boundman right after, but I still think that was a bit more impressive than what Queen did, even if it isn't by much.
Technically, he did initially fight back to at least stop her from eating the food, only for Big Mom to bodyslam his head to the ground, spin him around, and throw him away.
From here, he changed tactics, realizing that he wouldn't win in a direct fight, so he decided to attack her from above in a surprise attack to her head, saying that they only had one shot for this to actually stop her.
This resulted in curing her amnesia only, and later, she fell asleep, with Queen ******** his pants, thinking that he was done.
Again, that doesn't mean I think WCI Gear 4th Luffy should downscale to Big Mom, but it does make Luffy's AP, even back in that arc, not completely trash, especially compared to Wano Tiers. If anything, that alone is more impressive than anything any of the Tobiroppo ever did.
Personally speaking, I think that alone should be proof that the Sweet Commanders should around the same level as other top Yonko Commanders like The All-Stars, Ace, Marco, Jozu and Vista (they aren't the strongest, but they shouldn't get just low to mid diff either).
Instead of thinking that the entire Big Mom's crew is so mid that Ulti can solo them, which doesn't make sense narratively speaking.
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You act like i tried to scale Ulti to Post-Kaido Fight Luffy. Just base Wano Luffy is still leagues above WCI Gear 4 in base given his opening feat of blitzing + moving Kaido neither of which he could accomplish even in Gear 4 before.
I agree that Luffy gets magnitudes stronger; Ulti sure as f*ck doesn't scale to the Luffy who split the skies. But she scales above WCI G4, Wano Luffy in base has way way better feats vs Kaido than WCI G4, in terms of speed, strength, durability, everything. You can read the second section of the comment (addressing a different user) for more proof on that.
This was never stated anywhere.
Its absolutely not questionable; if he wasn't significantly stronger in base, on the rooftop he would have been blitzed + neg-diffed + ratio'd in 2 minutes.
You just posted more proof that base, Pre-Advanced CoC Luffy is stronger than WCI Gear 4. WCI Luffy would either get one-shot or (if your Future Sight theory is correct) require Future Sight to dodge, which Luffy clearly didnt use there.
That could very well be the case, but even without Future Sight and CoO, all we have is Kaido in base, drunk, barely trying blitzing Luffy. Its not like you get slower if you lose CoO; when Katakuri lost his cool he was still fast enough to put his arms up and try and block Boundman, he just couldn't use Future Sight to do his Logia-trick.
It's one of the few arguments for upscaling Katakuri that actually holds ground though, instead of like, comparing Rooftop Snakeman to WCI Snakeman, so i appreciate how ur Pro-Katakuri arguments are in good faith.
Jack was worn out from taking previous Sulong attacks from both Inu and Neko and also fighting against half of the Zou Country. Perosphero had 0 damage on him before the Sulong fight.
The main problem with the fight here is also that Pero lost. If he had been able to defeat a half dead Neko that would actually scale him above Tobi Roppo:
But he lost lol
Your other arguments to get him to Tobi Roppo level are;
- defeated Sulong Carrot (lol)
- harmed Chopper while he was busy with a YC2 (lol)
Perosphero's biggest argument for being above Tobi Roppo, no lie, is his bounty
This paragraph is somehow trying to scale Early WCI G4 Luffy above YC2 (same guy who needed 10 hours + Nami domain expansion to barely defeat a YC3) because Big Mom used Haki when she no diffed his G4 hit and sent him out of Boundman. There is no proof at all that she needed to use Haki. You can easily understand this logic given that you used it against Ulti when Luffy thought about Gear 4, and unlike Luffy who was trapped, Big Mom was not in a pinch or anything close to it.
Compare what to Queen?
WCI Luffy has no feats at all vs Big Mom. She no-diffed his strongest form and there is no proof WCI Luffy wouldn't get overpowered by an amnesiac Big Mom. Also Wano Luffy using Ryou (which is stronger than G4 Haki) still got sent packing by that same amnesiac Big Mom using no Haki.
Anyways was fun arguing with you, but i have an entire other post to get to now
@Kachon123
Imgur is broken atm so i couldnt click them. Although im guessing you posted the Donut attack that slightly redirected one of Luffys Boundman hits lol.
Anyway Katakuri clearly lost every single CoA clash against Boundman, and was shown tying Snakeman CoA, so he is not stronger than Boundman ever. I even gave Katakuri the benefit of the doubt and said hes above Snakeman CoA despite anti-feats for that claim existing.
Also like i said its blatanly stated in the manga, don't know what else to say:
Yamato and Ulti had a entire off-screen fight that you left out. Also Luffy considering Gear 4 >>>>> anything Katakuri did (considering WCI Gear 4 is enough to defeat Katakuri and base Wano >>> WCI Gear 4).
She could dodge lightning afterwards and the fact she was still standing scales her above WCI Luffy. Thats not even mentioning her previous damage from taking an aCoC hit that clashed with a move that one-shot Katakuri's conqueror.
No he is not.
Base Luffy in Wano could handle a Bagua way better than WCI Boundman.
I never said Ulti was stronger than Luffy. Just that she fought him and made him consider Gear 4. Which is both true. If he could effortlessly defeat them in base then Yamato wouldn't have needed to come in and save him from a Ulti headbutt. And this Luffy is despite your contrary claim, stronger and magnitudes faster than a Boundman that could overpower Katakuri.
He would get low-diffed by Ulti who can 1) tank hits that scale 3 orders of magnitude above Boundman. 2) (with assistance from her brother) land attacks on a Luffy who is also faster than G4 in base and 3) who is even stronger in Full Zoan form, physically pinning Pre-aCoC Wano Luffy down and making him consider Gear 4.
This makes perfect sense when we consider WCI Luffy could not even beat Cracker, a YC3, by himself.
What doesn't make sense narratively is that Katakuri's CoA is mogged by literally anyone in Wano; most Tobi Roppo, all Scabbards, Law, Zoro, even base Luffy. When Katakuri is supposed to be the equal of King, Ben Beckman, Marco. But that's just how it is, Wano introduced advanced CoA into the power system and handed it out to half the relevant fighters. I don't have a hate boner for Kat or anything, just looking at the feats and downscaling Kat from the Luffy who got negged by Kaido, Katakuri just got power-cliffed.
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Kurosaki Ichigo vs Monkey D. Luffy
Speed is Equal Post-Visored Training Ichigo vs Fifth Emperor of the Sea Luffy Possible Invulnerability for Ichigo is restricted so that Luffy can actually hurt him Starting Distance: 15 meters Kurosaki Ichigo: Monkey D. Luffy:
Stefano4444
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Kaido at that point was still not taking him seriously, only after getting hit by Red Roc he took him more seriously.
Looks even if Post Udon Base Luffy indeed surpassed WCI Gear 4th Luffy, Ulti still got speedblitz and she never did any significant damage to either that Luffy or Yamato, i really think this should be enough for her to meaningfully scale to Luffy.
Perospero was already injured before facing Neko, between his brief clash with Marco, his prolonged fight with Sulong Carrot and Sulong Wanda and then getting hit by Queen who was send away by Sanji, he wasn't a peak condition either.
And Jack was too injured after his fight with Inu and Neko at rooftop, but then he did quickly recover thanks of his Zoan's recovery factor enough that he was confident that he could fight Inu, so we can't quantifiable prove that he was in wrost condition than Perospero.
And so what? Jack also lost in the same way against a half dead Inu, that doesn't make him weaker than the Tobiroppo.
A fight in which we don't see Yamato actually not going all, we don't even see how the fight end.
He only did that because he only partially dodge it so he didn't took the full blow of Kaido's Thunder Bagua, which the Anime support it.
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Ped2018
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Holy WYou act like i tried to scale Ulti to Post-Kaido Fight Luffy. Just base Wano Luffy is still leagues above WCI Gear 4 in base given his opening feat of blitzing + moving Kaido neither of which he could accomplish even in Gear 4 before.
I agree that Luffy gets magnitudes stronger; Ulti sure as f*ck doesn't scale to the Luffy who split the skies. But she scales above WCI G4, Wano Luffy in base has way way better feats vs Kaido than WCI G4, in terms of speed, strength, durability, everything. You can read the second section of the comment (addressing a different user) for more proof on that.
This was never stated anywhere.
Its absolutely not questionable; if he wasn't significantly stronger in base, on the rooftop he would have been blitzed + neg-diffed + ratio'd in 2 minutes.
You just posted more proof that base, Pre-Advanced CoC Luffy is stronger than WCI Gear 4. WCI Luffy would either get one-shot or (if your Future Sight theory is correct) require Future Sight to dodge, which Luffy clearly didnt use there.
That could very well be the case, but even without Future Sight and CoO, all we have is Kaido in base, drunk, barely trying blitzing Luffy. Its not like you get slower if you lose CoO; when Katakuri lost his cool he was still fast enough to put his arms up and try and block Boundman, he just couldn't use Future Sight to do his Logia-trick.
It's one of the few arguments for upscaling Katakuri that actually holds ground though, instead of like, comparing Rooftop Snakeman to WCI Snakeman, so i appreciate how ur Pro-Katakuri arguments are in good faith.
Jack was worn out from taking previous Sulong attacks from both Inu and Neko and also fighting against half of the Zou Country. Perosphero had 0 damage on him before the Sulong fight.
The main problem with the fight here is also that Pero lost. If he had been able to defeat a half dead Neko that would actually scale him above Tobi Roppo:
But he lost lol
Your other arguments to get him to Tobi Roppo level are;
- defeated Sulong Carrot (lol)
- harmed Chopper while he was busy with a YC2 (lol)
Perosphero's biggest argument for being above Tobi Roppo, no lie, is his bounty
This paragraph is somehow trying to scale Early WCI G4 Luffy above YC2 (same guy who needed 10 hours + Nami domain expansion to barely defeat a YC3) because Big Mom used Haki when she no diffed his G4 hit and sent him out of Boundman. There is no proof at all that she needed to use Haki. You can easily understand this logic given that you used it against Ulti when Luffy thought about Gear 4, and unlike Luffy who was trapped, Big Mom was not in a pinch or anything close to it.
Compare what to Queen?
WCI Luffy has no feats at all vs Big Mom. She no-diffed his strongest form and there is no proof WCI Luffy wouldn't get overpowered by an amnesiac Big Mom. Also Wano Luffy using Ryou (which is stronger than G4 Haki) still got sent packing by that same amnesiac Big Mom using no Haki.
Anyways was fun arguing with you, but i have an entire other post to get to now
@Kachon123
Imgur is broken atm so i couldnt click them. Although im guessing you posted the Donut attack that slightly redirected one of Luffys Boundman hits lol.
Anyway Katakuri clearly lost every single CoA clash against Boundman, and was shown tying Snakeman CoA, so he is not stronger than Boundman ever. I even gave Katakuri the benefit of the doubt and said hes above Snakeman CoA despite anti-feats for that claim existing.
Also like i said its blatanly stated in the manga, don't know what else to say:
Yamato and Ulti had a entire off-screen fight that you left out. Also Luffy considering Gear 4 >>>>> anything Katakuri did (considering WCI Gear 4 is enough to defeat Katakuri and base Wano >>> WCI Gear 4).
She could dodge lightning afterwards and the fact she was still standing scales her above WCI Luffy. Thats not even mentioning her previous damage from taking an aCoC hit that clashed with a move that one-shot Katakuri's conqueror.
No he is not.
Base Luffy in Wano could handle a Bagua way better than WCI Boundman.
I never said Ulti was stronger than Luffy. Just that she fought him and made him consider Gear 4. Which is both true. If he could effortlessly defeat them in base then Yamato wouldn't have needed to come in and save him from a Ulti headbutt. And this Luffy is despite your contrary claim, stronger and magnitudes faster than a Boundman that could overpower Katakuri.
He would get low-diffed by Ulti who can 1) tank hits that scale 3 orders of magnitude above Boundman. 2) (with assistance from her brother) land attacks on a Luffy who is also faster than G4 in base and 3) who is even stronger in Full Zoan form, physically pinning Pre-aCoC Wano Luffy down and making him consider Gear 4.
This makes perfect sense when we consider WCI Luffy could not even beat Cracker, a YC3, by himself.
What doesn't make sense narratively is that Katakuri's CoA is mogged by literally anyone in Wano; most Tobi Roppo, all Scabbards, Law, Zoro, even base Luffy. When Katakuri is supposed to be the equal of King, Ben Beckman, Marco. But that's just how it is, Wano introduced advanced CoA into the power system and handed it out to half the relevant fighters. I don't have a hate boner for Kat or anything, just looking at the feats and downscaling Kat from the Luffy who got negged by Kaido, Katakuri just got power-cliffed.
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Katakuri's Armament Haki being superior to Bound Man Luffy's is definitely wrong, BM Luffy was easily overpowering Kat's Armament in Ch. 884.
I don't know why it's questionable that Post-Udon Base Luffy is superior to Pre-Udon G4 Luffy, as if we haven't seen Luffy surpass his previous strongest Gear in his Base form before lol.
Saying WCI Bound Man Luffy forced Big Mom to use Armament is like saying Page One forced Big Mom to used Hao Infusion and Buso Emission. And saying Luffy pushed Big Mom further than Queen ever did is laughably dishonest.
I don't know why it's questionable that Post-Udon Base Luffy is superior to Pre-Udon G4 Luffy, as if we haven't seen Luffy surpass his previous strongest Gear in his Base form before lol.
Saying WCI Bound Man Luffy forced Big Mom to use Armament is like saying Page One forced Big Mom to used Hao Infusion and Buso Emission. And saying Luffy pushed Big Mom further than Queen ever did is laughably dishonest.
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He was also not taking him seriously in their first fight
I already outlined what she did and how she scales.
Perosphero took hits from Sulong Carrot/Wanda, Jack took hits from Scabbards who upscale from Tobi Roppo. Scabbards >>> Tobi Roppo >>> Carrot.
Perosphero didnt take an attack from Queen he just got hit by Queens body.
You also keep scrutinizing Jack saying "he can take more damage/has Zoan factor", well that just makes him better than Pero lol, idk why that's used to scale Pero up.
I said in my previous comment, Jack fought half of the Mink Country, Pero fought two (2) low-tier Minks. Carrot herself says that the Musketeers are far stronger:
Now look what Jack faced. All of the Mink countries top fighters in Sulong, including the Musketeers who are way stronger than Carrot, and this is what Jack did to them:
(edit: fixed this link)
Kaido only stepped in after Inuarashi and Nekomamushi defeated Jack. This was shown and stated clearly in 991.
So Jack had way more damage on him from a way tougher fight than Perosphero.
Edit: I had a whole paragraph typed out about anime changes and whatnot but forget that, lets say Luffy used Future Sight there, he still has a variety of feats in early rooftop fight that he could not have done with his WCI strength.
But anyways. Most of the points you brought up i already argued against. If you disagree then lets just leave it at that.
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The amounts of texts 
The great texts era!!! Whom will become the texter king!?
The great texts era!!! Whom will become the texter king!?
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Boundman Haki (Devil fruit combined with haki) + overuse of haki > Base katakuri Haki.
Boundman Haki (Devil fruit combined with haki) + overuse of haki < katakuri power mochi (Devil fruit combined with haki)
Katakuri still had the superior armament haki overall
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Just seen this
Oda could've went more in depth into katakuri, would've been cool
Oda could've went more in depth into katakuri
, would've been cool
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His mouth wasn't ripped from birth huh? Could go many ways for how if got ripped...Just seen this
Oda could've went more in depth into katakuri
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Boundman Haki (Devil fruit combined with haki) + overuse of haki > Base katakuri Haki.
Boundman Haki (Devil fruit combined with haki) + overuse of haki < katakuri power mochi (Devil fruit combined with haki)
Katakuri still had the superior armament haki overall
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Hard disagree.
Boundman Haki (Devil fruit combined with haki) + overuse of haki > Base katakuri Haki.
Boundman Haki (Devil fruit combined with haki) + overuse of haki < katakuri power mochi (Devil fruit combined with haki)
Katakuri still had the superior armament haki overall
Katakuri even with his Power Mochi never met BM Luffy's strength head on even once like he did the armament attacks of the other versions of Luffy he fought. As those panels at the bottom show, opted to deflect a Kong Gun from the side when usually he would've tried to overpower it. Katakuri is inferior to BM Luffy's sheer physical power + haki and there's nothing wrong with that.
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If Boundman's Haki had been superior to Katakuri's Power Mochi fists, he would have deflected them. Instead, every clash between Boundman's body and the Power Mochi fists resulted in visible Haki sparks (indicating a clash), leaving Luffy injured.
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So because Katakuri's Power Mochi is strong enough to damage BM Luffy through his rubber body, that makes it stronger? So we should just ignore Luffy easily breaking through Katakuri's Armament defense or Katakuri's "superior haki" not hurting Luffy's hand like the other times when Kata hit it with Power Mochi to deflect Kong Gong? Might as well say Cracker's Haki is also stronger than WCI BM Luffy's too since he could also damage his body.
