[Re:Zero] Transcendents Scale to Reinhard

[VortechsTG]

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This literally just makes it look like it's just talking the fight they just had. What is the context here?

 

[VortechsTG]

Sorry what?
In wrath if we pretty much see how the interaction with the both of them would go and while yeah Reinhard won (he IS the strongest afterall), it was atleast somewhat of a fight with him even getting injured

An if story cannot be a main piece of evidence for your argument, especially not when it's vague whether or not Cecilus is even the same in that story or got stronger. Not when there are vague lines in it that seem to be implying that he is stronger. Years passed between the main story and wrath if. It literally takes place in the future from arc 9. And, again, it is an if story. An old one from before Tappei started really writing about Cecilus too.

whereas Peak Theresia got blitzes and one shotted

Reinhard was not alive when prime Theresia was.

Skill defines how powerful you are with the flow method

Not exactly. The flow method enhances the mind and that allows them to show off greater feats of skill than they would without it, but it's not 1 to 1. They still have different skill levels as a base. Different strengths and so on. If it was 1 to 1 why would Cecilus even be faster than Reinhard in the first place if his skill is equal? Why would Garf be faster than Wilhelm in arc 5 despite clearly being well below his skill level? Why would Heinkel be able to tank blows from Volcanica if he's not as skilled as even Old Wilhelm is? Why would the Heavenly Sword and the Sword Saint be described as the pinnacle of skill and strength respectively?

First of all, Tappei has made it clear on so many occasions that Garf gets stronger during his fights that it's genuinely illogical to even get to that conclusion especially when he clearly took inspiration from Luffy.

He gets stronger but very incrementally lol. Even after getting stronger for a while in his fight with Kafma, Kafma was still able to tag him just fine and even stick his hand down his throat. It doesn't explain why Garfiel is suddenly able to kick Mezoreia's ass, push back it's breath, and then blow up an entire continents worth of clouds immediately after getting his shit rocked by Mezo. ReZero characters don't get sudden power boosts from the flow method. It is a slow process. Wilogy made this very very painfully clear. What is a sudden power spike is Magical Shroud Excitation. Garfiel's entire arc in soumatou is learning to accept help from others. It doesn't make sense if that isn't the reason for his sudden power spike. Nothing changes besides his willingness to accept help.

Secondly, as he too is a martial fighter who uses the flow method, MSE would break his flow too and while that might nef him somewhat of a boost. In the end it would be more of a Nerf because of his lack of control.

This is pure conjecture and I can just as easily say that it would only throw him off a little because he is so skilled normally. Subaru used it on a whole army of gladiators and they were still able to fight fine.

We see this w Cecilus directly telling us this.

We never actually saw anything. There's nothing to indicate it would make him completely unable to fight all of a sudden. It just has a downside that means it isn't as effective as a straight buff.

 

[Gigi_4_life]

This literally just makes it look like it's just talking the fight they just had. What is the context here?

Tappei specifies that "the dead Theresia was as strong as she was when she fought Wilhelm"


Note how he says "dead Theresia" at the start, because he's comparing Theresia from when she was alive to when she was dead, this is the purpose of this part of the sentence. He's saying that the dead Theresia is currently as strong as when she fought Wilhelm back when she was alive.


The context is that Tappei was livetweeting this when he was watching the Theresia named episode, when Theresia was facing off against Reinhard.


None of this is really needed though, as we have the volume 20 statement saying she was even better than in her prime

 

[Zabazab]

This literally just makes it look like it's just talking the fight they just had. What is the context here?

Contextually, I don't think this statement from Tappei would make sense (not that he often does make sense) if it referred to Corpse Theresia's battle with Wilhelm, and not Theresia's battle at her ceremony. There would be no reason to think a change in strength occurred in that circumstance. Still, Tappei also said Cecilus, Theresia, and Wilhelm were comparable in the same year he wrote Wrath IF, years after writing Imperial Diplomacy of Bloodshed & The SFDotSSatBL.

But the main deal is the fact that Theresia's strength in particular is brought up as having been drawn out by Reinhard.

Garfiel's entire arc in soumatou is learning to accept help from others. It doesn't make sense if that isn't the reason for his sudden power spike. Nothing changes besides his willingness to accept help.

This'd be nice thematically for Garf's arc, but I still need any hint at all that Garfiel started benefiting from MSE here. The text states that the sudden change in physical abilities is due to an explosive blossoming of Garfiel's Divine Protection of Earth Spirits. I'd liken it to Liliana's telepathy in her named chapter.

 

[Gigi_4_life]

An if story cannot be a main piece of evidence for your argument, especially not when it's vague whether or not Cecilus is even the same in that story or got stronger. Not when there are vague lines in it that seem to be implying that he is stronger. Years passed between the main story and wrath if. It literally takes place in the future from arc 9. And, again, it is an if story. An old one from before Tappei started really writing about Cecilus too.

There currently isn't anything implying there's any major difference between Cecilus in the main route (faster than Reinhard and 5-C) and Cecilus in Oboreru, but yeah we shouldn't be taking the if stories too much into account as they can very well be outdated (like how there's no mention of the Great Disaster happening in Vollachia, etc...)

Reinhard was not alive when prime Theresia was.

I think he's referring to this statement from Wilhelm when undead Theresia attacks Reinhard

Spoiler: VOLUME 20

Theresia's blade howled as she advanced, approaching Reinhard with a perfect slash.
It was possibly the most perfect slash he had ever seen from Theresia.
The strength of one's opponent could draw out the latent strength lurking inside even a sword master.

Not exactly. The flow method enhances the mind and that allows them to show off greater feats of skill than they would without it, but it's not 1 to 1. They still have different skill levels as a base. Different strengths and so on. If it was 1 to 1 why would Cecilus even be faster than Reinhard in the first place if his skill is equal? Why would Garf be faster than Wilhelm in arc 5 despite clearly being well below his skill level? Why would Heinkel be able to tank blows from Volcanica if he's not as skilled as even Old Wilhelm is? Why would the Heavenly Sword and the Sword Saint be described as the pinnacle of skill and strength respectively?

Mostly correct!!!

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We're getting a bit off topic here, my apologies, but you guys can discuss this in another thread

 

[VortechsTG]

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I'll just concede on this I guess. I haven't really seen it explained like Liliana's divine protection before.

There currently isn't anything implying there's any major difference between Cecilus in the main route

That is not true. Cecilus implies Subaru helped him get stronger. It's just a very vague statement in regards to the extent. All the more reason why Wrath IF should be ignored.

I think he's referring to this statement from Wilhelm when undead Theresia attacks Reinhard

I know this, man He just says "undead Theresia" though. It just seems like a poorly thought out statement.

Mostly correct!!!

You can't just say something like this and not explain.

We're getting a bit off topic here, my apologies, but you guys can discuss this in another thread

I think this is actually perfectly on topic. We are discussing the scaling of the characters being changed by this crt.

 

[Gigi_4_life]

I know this, man He just says "undead Theresia" though. It just seems like a poorly thought out statement.

Satella's a goofy goober

You can't just say something like this and not explain.

I'm just agreeing with you, flow method doesn't affect all of your stats the same as you explained above, I just said "mostly correct" because the flow method is more about using the mana inside you to amp yourself than enhancing the mind but either way, I agree on your main point there.

I think this is actually perfectly on topic. We are discussing the scaling of the characters being changed by this crt.

Fair enough

I do think Garfiel has had a major boost in power during his arc 8 fight and I think I'm in favor of Theresia and POL Wilhelm scaling to arc 9 Garfiel, though I think they should be a bit higher than what Zab suggested in terms of speed (at least sub-relativistic+), but there's no real definitive way to really tell where they sit in terms of speed.

 

[VortechsTG]

Satella's a goofy goober

I mean I don't think Tappei's statement is very clear.

I'm just agreeing with you, flow method doesn't affect all of your stats the same as you explained above, I just said "mostly correct" because the flow method is more about using the mana inside you to amp yourself than enhancing the mind but either way, I agree on your main point there.

It enhances many things about you including your mind. I didn't mean to exclude anything else by saying that it enhances the mind. I just meant that's one thing it enhances. I see where the confusion was now though.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

My thoughts are the same as Celestial Pegasus.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Things that have been accepted so far:

1. Cecilus' canon key will be baseline 5-C with his Enchanted Swords, scaling above bare-handed Reinhard via Al Shario.
2. Al Shario will scale to baseline 5-C, to be added to Echidna, Sphinx, and Roswaal's pages. Likely replacing the Star Staff?

Things that require evaluation:

1. Cecilus being faster than Reinhard, which makes Cecilus, Halibel, Reinhard, and Reid all comparable in terms of speed.
2. Cecilus being as skilled as Reinhard, which makes Cecilus, Halibel, and Reinhard comparable in the martial arts.
3. This then requiring Sword Saint Theresia and Young Wilhelm (Power of Love) be nerfed in both martial skill (stated to be far from Reinhard) and speed (Theresia's finest slash was blitzed by Reinhard). They'd likely be Genius and at least Sub-Relativistic+. Whether they'd have their 6-A AP nerfed depends on if they'd still be considered as having enough evidence of being superior to Arc 9 Garfiel.

Made concise.

bumping this so we can finally get this over with

Hopefully by tonight and then we will never have to worry about cecilus again (I hate nagatsuki for this)

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Wishful thinking that we will never have to worry about Cecilus.

Cecilius trained or there was a period of time that went by, after facing Reinhard the first time, so his earlier ex Novel feats can't really be used against him to say he is slower, inclined to accept Ceci is faster.

Cecilus being one step away from reaching Reid's skill, while simultaneously being stated to be far from Reid reaching sums up the state of skill scaling... The constant comparisons such as Transcendents being able to dodge rain and what not, or Cecilus performing Reinhard's space cut, I think probably makes skill ok to scale between Transcendents.

Sword Saint blessing brings your swordsmanship to its max, Zombie Theresia while not as strong should still have had the talent to reach the levels she had as a Sword Saint, and it's Reinhard who brings it out, would have been impossible normally, so also incline to think Theresia did indeed bring out her full strength against Reinhard, especially as Wilhelm who has seen that in the past said it's the best attack he had ever seen from her, in which we saw the obvious result, a Reinhard 1 shot.

Beside like narrative, not sure if Theresia and Wilhelm have any evidence to continue supporting the 6-A rating.

 

[Gigi_4_life]

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I was about to write an argument but wow I guess I didn't need to after all

Since you're saying Cecilus scales in speed and skill, would you accept the same for his fellow transcendent Halibel? Furthermore, do you believe their base stats (Cecilus and Halibel) should be high 6-A? As if these changes are accepted right now, it would be very weird for Cecilus to jump from 6-A to 5-C suddenly. Them scaling to Reinhard in speed and skill should perhaps mean they should at the very least downscale to him.

Yeah I also agree on the Theresia/Wilhelm stuff, they don't have any direct evidence because their story takes place way before the main story so we can't really tie them in cleanly, we should probably discuss their standing in this thread no? Or do we need another one for that?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Halibel would also scale in speed and skill yea. I still find the entire idea of their base stats in terms of strength scaling, a confusing mess.

I would be inclined to "possibly" ratings, but nothing definitive.

If Wilhelm and Theresia don't scale to Cecilius, as far as I know they will just vaguely scale above their current rating, with an At least rating.

 

[Gigi_4_life]

Halibel would also scale in speed and skill yea. I still find the enter idea of their base stats in terms of strength scaling, a confusing mess. I would be inclined to "possibly" ratings, but nothing definitive.

If Wilhelm and Theresia don't scale to Cecilius, as far as I know they will just vaugely scale above their current rating, with an At least rating.

Sounds good to me, thank you for everything

What about Wilhelm and Theresia's speed? The only reason they got FTL is because of their scaling to Cecilus.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Halibel would also scale in speed and skill yea. I still find the entire idea of their base stats in terms of strength scaling, a confusing mess.

I would be inclined to "possibly" ratings, but nothing definitive.

If Wilhelm and Theresia don't scale to Cecilius, as far as I know they will just vaguely scale above their current rating, with an At least rating.

Should we downgrade Wil and Theresia from their main stats but keep the possibly 6A on their profiles?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Gigi_4_life Zab already went over that, if they don't scale to Cecilus they get downgraded to Sub-relativistic+.

@SatellaTheWoE Possibly 6-A based on what? Tappei statements about Theresia=Cecilus or just general impressions that they should be above Garfiel? The former we are kinda already disregarding, so don't see how that could work, and the latter has no evidence from what I know in story, besides the fact that Theresia is supposed to be really strong.

 

[Gigi_4_life]

To summarize everything:

Cecilus will be 5-C with his swords

Cecilus and Halibel will scale to Reinhard in both speed and skill

Cecilus and Halibel will have a possibly rating for downscaling to base Reinhard (high 6-A)

Due to no longer scaling to Cecilus, Theresia and Wilhelm will be downgraded to sub-relativistic+ and lose their 6-A rating (do they go to 6-C or 7-A?)

 

[Zabazab]

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

@SatellaTheWoE Possibly based on what? Tappei statements about Theresia=Cecilus or just general impressions that they should be above Garfiel? The former we are kinda already disregarding so don't see how that could work, and the latter has no evidence from what I know in story, besides the fact that Theresia is supposed to be really strong.

I was thinking of making it a kind of in between thing since we are in the transition phase of scaling for them

Anyways they should at the very least be 6C in their primes since they should be safely above Marcos

 

[Gigi_4_life]

Anyways they should at the very least be 6C in their primes since they should be safely above Marcos

Reasoning?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

To summarize everything:

Cecilus will be 5-C with his swords

Cecilus and Halibel will scale to Reinhard in both speed and skill

Cecilus and Halibel will have a possibly rating for downscaling to base Reinhard (high 6-A)

Due to no longer scaling to Cecilus, Theresia and Wilhelm will be downgraded to sub-relativistic+ and lose their 6-A rating (do they go to 6-C or 7-A?)

Who wants to apply this? It's been a month.

 

[Zabazab]

Who wants to apply this? It's been a month.

I could apply Halibel, Theresia, & Wilhelm since I have restructured sandboxes of them pretty much ready to go. Though they have some other changes like edits to Intelligence and P&A, so a CRT to apply the updated pages my be better. Cecilus has been on the backburner but I can do the minimum for him too in like a day.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Probably should make the other CRTS first then.

Sidenote if Theresia and Wilhelm are going to be At least 7-A, will Marcos still be 6-C?

 

[Zabazab]

Sidenote if Theresia and Wilhelm are going to be At least 7-A, will Marcos still be 6-C?

In Once Upon a Time in Lugunica II (Tanpenshuu 12), Marcos from 15 years ago thinks retired Theresia could kill him easily. But, this is the same story that reveals the origin of Marcos' trump card: The Forbidden Art fused into his soul by Roswaal, that lets him spawn Rock Armor on his body. Roswaal considers this "the birth of a monster."

Then we have Tappei's Season 1 Director's Cut comment stating in a normal battle, Marcos is as strong as Roswaal (which is the actual source of Marcos' 6-C scaling). Not sure whether;
A) Marcos got stronger over the decade and surpassed Theresia/Prime Wilhelm.
B) Marcos got stronger over the decade but Theresia/Prime Wilhelm remained stronger.
C) Marcos didn't get stronger but his Forbidden Art makes him as strong as Roswaal.

 

[Gigi_4_life]

A) Marcos got stronger over the decade and surpassed Theresia/Prime Wilhelm.
B) Marcos got stronger over the decade but Theresia/Prime Wilhelm remained stronger.
C) Marcos didn't get stronger but his Forbidden Art makes him as strong as Roswaal.

I’d say A is the more likely option