[Re:Zero] Transcendents Scale to Reinhard

[Lgamer099_99]

I still think that Cecilus cutting Al Shario makes him comparable to volcanica in AP at the very least. Also volcanica didn't get any different statements from the ones Cecilus got.

At the very least Cecilus and halibel should get a possibly or even likely rating

 

[Gigi_4_life]

I still think that Cecilus cutting Al Shario makes him comparable to volcanica in AP at the very least. Also volcanica didn't get any different statements from the ones Cecilus got.

At the very least Cecilus and halibel should get a possibly or even likely rating

I agree, but even if you wanna downplay, Cecilus with the Dream Sword is at the bare minimum high 6A, since it's confirmed he's above base Reinhard in AP

Spoiler: ARC 9 CHAPTER 14

That Al Shario could not be defended against, he would not take such an optimistic viewpoint.

In fact, the Blue Lightning, who was considered to be on par with the Sword Saint, had achieved a feat of supremacy unbounded by slaying a falling star with a single slice of his katana during the decisive battle for the Imperial Capital.

That star had been cut down through the combined effect of Cecilus’s swordsmanship and the Dream Sword’s power; he did not think that Reinhard, unable to draw the Dragon Sword as he was, could replicate such a feat.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Funny that people use the Volcanica equal to reinhard statements when they aren't exactly equal, while they ignore how the series literally mention the strongest of other nations as almost equal to reinhard when literally they were trying to understand who was Reid, the guy on reinhard level. Really wonder what the author meant with that, oh right..

 

[VortechsTG]

I still think that Cecilus cutting Al Shario makes him comparable to volcanica in AP at the very least. Also volcanica didn't get any different statements from the ones Cecilus got.

One is straight from the author and the other is from characters that are constantly unreliable but alright.

Funny that people use the Volcanica equal to reinhard statements when they aren't exactly equal, while they ignore how the series literally mention the strongest of other nations as almost equal to reinhard when literally they were trying to understand who was Reid, the guy on reinhard level. Really wonder what the author meant with that, oh right..

Nobody is ignoring those statements. They simply exist within their context. The context is vastly different between these statements.

 

[Zabazab]

One is straight from the author and the other is from characters that are constantly unreliable but alright.

If we look at just what Cecilus and Halibel have said about Reinhard:

“Er?” Cecilus had been so itching to draw his weapons that it looked as if he had received a most unexpected blow. The man appeared more and more shaken as he was given a broad outline of what had happened. Finally, he looked around at them vacantly, his gaze settling on Reinhard. “Um, then what about settling things between us?”

“I’m afraid I’ll have to ask that it be another time,” Reinhard responded with a wry smile. “Perhaps when I’m not in… this situation.” He tapped a finger against the Collar of Submission around his neck.

“Ahh, yes indeed,” Cecilus said, nodding. “But— doesn’t that mean I am wholly and truly outmatched?!”

The despairing cry of the empire’s strongest swordsman concluded the special diplomatic mission between the Empire of Vollachia and the Kingdom of Lugunica. –Ex Volume 4, "Diplomacy by Bloodshed"

"Have you ever done anything General First-Class-like?"

"I have! With the dignity of the Vollachian Empire at stake, I fought a one-on-one battle with the Kingdom’s strongest, the Sword Saint!"

"I heard you got your ass kicked."

"Well, when we fought again in the Kingdom it was a draw!"

Stamping his foot on the ground, Cecilus responded to Arakiya’s comment by pouting.

Unfortunately, there were strict orders that anything related to Cecilus’s aforementioned embarkment into the Kingdom, including the incident he had caused over there, should not be relayed to others. –Sword Identity, Part 2

“That’s why there’s people who’re more motivated than me flyin’ around. So long as they ain’t stronger than me, I guess there ain’t no problem.”

“People stronger than Halibel-san…”

“The only one who’s absolutely stronger than me’s the Kingdom’s Sword Saint. That ‘un aside, it depends on compatibility n’ the circumstances.”

Halibel’s softly-worded response gave Subaru a sense of both relief and trepidation.

Having a strong person take pride in their strength, just like Cecilus did, was nothing short of reassuring for an ally. That was especially true if they were among the strongest in the world.

Precisely because of that, he could not help but be astounded by how out of the ordinary Reinhard was, who had his strength “absolutely” guaranteed by some of the world’s strongest. –Volume 38, Chapter 2

 

[Lgamer099_99]

If we look at just what Cecilus and Halibel have said about Reinhard:

This stuff is no different from like Whitebeard being the strongest among emperors kind of thing tho, we also got Sekhmet scaling to Volcanica when she can fight the dragon for some amount of time...

Also the author is still

Spoiler: Last chapter

mentioning IFs implying they are Canon and literally also in the wrath if Halibel who thinks that on the right circumstances he would beat Cecilus and we saw what Cecilus did to Reinhard in that route.

The Al shario thing is also pretty clear, also I know that

Spoiler

the dragon is nerfed, but it seems that sealed weakend Satella is indeed better than the dragon

Also if I remember correctly Tappei stated that Reid would easily cut off the head of the top 5 he did except reinhard, and there were Sekmhet and Ram with horn both implied to be a challange to the dragon but at the sime time Volcanica can challange Reid and Reinhard.
It's messy.

Q: Approximately how strong is the first generation Sword Saint Reid? (Based mainly on Reinhard)

A: Yesterday, I gave the power rankings of the (top) five people among the current characters, however with the exception of Reinhard he can behead all of them.

 

[VortechsTG]

There needs to be a note on the verse page that IF content is not valid for scaling.

 

[Gigi_4_life]

There needs to be a note on the verse page that IF content is not valid for scaling.

I was just thinking of bringing up how I think there's no difference between Cecilus in the main route and the wrath if route but sure

Do you think they're not valid because they're outdated?

 

[Lgamer099_99]

I was just thinking of bringing up how I think there's no difference between Cecilus in the main route and the wrath if route but sure

Do you think they're not valid because they're outdated?

Spoiler

Didn't the current chapter literally mention them?

 

[VortechsTG]

I was just thinking of bringing up how I think there's no difference between Cecilus in the main route and the wrath if route but sure

Do you think they're not valid because they're outdated?

They're not valid because they're half assed and hilariously vague. Most and I mean MOST of what we know about pride if comes from Tappei talking about it rather than from the story itself. Wrath if isn't much better.

 

[Gigi_4_life]

Spoiler

Didn't the current chapter literally mention them?

How so?

 

[Gigi_4_life]

They're not valid because they're half assed and hilariously vague. Most and I mean MOST of what we know about pride if comes from Tappei talking about it rather than from the story itself. Wrath if isn't much better.

That's fair, the writing style for the if stories (before their LN adaptation) is very different and completely skips most of Subaru's progress to go directly to the results.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

How so?

 

[Lgamer099_99]

They're not valid because they're half assed and hilariously vague. Most and I mean MOST of what we know about pride if comes from Tappei talking about it rather than from the story itself. Wrath if isn't much better.

I completely disagree with it.

 

[Gigi_4_life]

oh that's really cool

 

[Lgamer099_99]

oh that's really cool

Written by the author, still mentioned by Tappei and he uses IFs to reveal stuff that is valid for the main route but the Fandom randomly decided they aren't valid for some reason.

 

[Zabazab]

Snip

I'd still support the IF Light Novels (Rem IF & Kasaneru IF) and the full LiM route (Aganau IF) having canon information. It's true that web novel routes like Oboreru have contradictory information though, such as swapping which sword is Cecilus' best.

 

[VortechsTG]

I'd still support the IF Light Novels (Rem IF & Kasaneru IF) and the full LiM route (Aganau IF) having canon information. It's true that web novel routes like Oboreru have contradictory information though, such as swapping which sword is Cecilus' best.

Yeah, this is very fair. I can get behind this.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

People when they'll find out that Cecilus being a counter to reinhard is basically a major point in oboreru that won't change in a light novel adaptation regardless

 

[Gigi_4_life]

bump

 

[Gigi_4_life]

People when they'll find out that Cecilus being a counter to reinhard is basically a major point in oboreru that won't change in a light novel adaptation regardless

Honestly, his wrath if key should simply be fused to his main story one, there's quite literally nothing indicating he got some sort of training arc where he's significantly stronger (heck, the entire point of Cecilus' journey in wrath if is that he's desperate to get stronger and arc 8 more or less makes main story Cecilus closer to getting stronger than wrath if Cecilus will ever be)

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Honestly, his wrath if key should simply be fused to his main story one, there's quite literally nothing indicating he got some sort of training arc where he's significantly stronger (heck, the entire point of Cecilus' journey in wrath if is that he's desperate to get stronger and arc 8 more or less makes main story Cecilus closer to getting stronger than wrath if Cecilus will ever be)

Also halibel still implies he can take on cecilus in wrath if

 

[Gigi_4_life]

Also halibel still implies he can take on cecilus in wrath if

Indeed, the mercenaries of Pleiades (honestly, they shouldn't matter too much power scaling wise since they got instantly killed by Reinhard lol) believe they can tie with Cecilus if they have Halibel on their side

Spoiler: WRATH IF

Cecilus: “Those dark circles are quite severe. Maybe you should sleep softly next to the princess for a while?”

At Cecilus’s words, the boy’s tongue clicked.

Cecilus just laughed it off, but the other men around him froze with tension in their bodies. It was possible that, because of that irritation, Cecilus’s slaying could be ordered.

Of course, if push came to shove, killing Cecilus would be no trivial affair. Using every force available in the building, they would have to try to force a draw with Halibel in the mix as well

Although the story notes that in terms of pure combat power, Halibel is behind Cecilus, that doesn't really diminish Halibel's capabilities, as his fighting style is more about using hax techniques and even after that statement, Halibel was ready to throw hands with Cecilus (I think the story makes it clear he's weaker than Cecilus and Reinhard, but he can definitely put up a fight against them)

Spoiler: WRATH IF

Halibel: “Ce-san, aren’t’cha even more of an assassin than I, a shinobi, am?”

Cecilus: “No, no, definitely not true, I mean, stuff like lurking in the water, or hiding poison on my person, or rising from the shadows is impossible for me.”

Shaking his head and hands, Cecilus humbly responded by acknowledging the difference between their respective areas.

As a shinobi, as an assassin, he was far behind Halibel. But, if fighting head-on, Halibel was no match for Cecilus.

Cecilus: “Well then, having just caught me at the scene of me meeting with a secret messenger, what are you thinking of doing? Are you planning on fighting me with your life on the line here?”

Halibel: “That depends on the nature of the message.”

Cecilus: “Hmm, you mean its contents.”

Halibel: “If its contents’d mean Su-san’s death, I guess I gotta fight to stop that.”

Holding his kiseru between his fingers, letting out a puff of violet smoke, Halibel’s fur fluttered in the cold night breeze.

Hearing he was ready to fight to the death for his master, Cecilus, with an “I see”, nodded his head.

 

[VortechsTG]

Indeed, the mercenaries of Pleiades (honestly, they shouldn't matter too much power scaling wise since they got instantly killed by Reinhard lol) believe they can tie with Cecilus if they have Halibel on their side

Lol lmao

(I think the story makes it clear he's weaker than Cecilus and Reinhard, but he can definitely put up a fight against them)

Moon level FTL Groovy confirmed

As a shinobi, as an assassin, he was far behind Halibel. But, if fighting head-on, Halibel was no match for Cecilus.

 

[Gigi_4_life]

Moon level FTL Groovy confirmed

Groovy doesn't scale in any way shape or form to Halibel sadly

lmao
nah but there's a reason I didn't say Halibel should be 5-C, I only said that for Cecilus

 

[Lgamer099_99]

nah but there's a reason I didn't say Halibel should be 5-C, I only said that for Cecilus

Yeah I think halibel would mostly scale speed wise and can probably ignore durability or/and use several abilities.
He lacks firepower

 

[Gigi_4_life]

Tappei do you love me

Spoiler: ARC 9 CHAPTER 19 SPOILERS

Yae: [Even if you say I’m the greatest masterpiece, I did fail in my assassination attempt~? Besides, it’s not the job of a shinobi to slaughter a hundred or a thousand people on the battlefield. I’m no Blue Lightning, after all.]

Aldebaran: [Well, I guess you’re right.]

The Blue Lightning, who Yae pouted her lips as she brought up―― Cecilus, was somebody who Aldebaran had also worked together with, though only for a brief time.

His abilities were just as the anecdotal exaggeration Yae had described, and he was a member of the same realm of incomprehensible outliers that included Reinhard.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

What's the current arguments? I am not reading 2 pages of Cecilus strength debates, seen too many over the years....

 

[Zabazab]

What's the current arguments?

There are many statements for and against them scaling, here's an example of Reinhard being called "without peer no matter where you look in the world" soon followed by Cecilus being called "considered to be on-par with Reinhard" in the exact same chapter (Arc 9, Chapter 14):

——The Sword Saint, Reinhard van Astrea.

Needless to say, in the Kingdom of Lugunica―― nay, even if one were to search far and wide across the entire world, he was a being who went without peer, and one of the two greatest obstacles in Aldebaran’s plan.

Still, the other of the two had been none other than Natsuki Subaru, but his entrapment via Ol Shamak alongside Beatrice, who likewise had been a matter of concern, had already been completed successfully.

Hence, among the individuals with whom a clash was certain, this man remained as the greatest barrier.

――Very well, Reinhard van Astrea was the strongest.

The Blue Lightning, Cecilus Segmunt, was faster; the Admirer, Halibel, made greater use of techniques; the Mad Prince, Vague Adgard, was further distanced from death; the Great Spirits enrolled among the Four Greats exceed him in Mana; the Sin Archbishops of the Witch Cult possessed irrational Authorities; the Witches of Sin had taken far more lives; many virtuous individuals were better at lying; and many scoundrels were more unfalteringly obstinate.

When looking at individual aspects generally, there were plenty of individuals who surpassed Reinhard.

Nevertheless, Reinhard van Astrea’s seat as the strongest would not be shaken. ――Tearing down that definitive strongest bastion, was the absolute victory condition levied upon Aldebaran.

That Al Shario could not be defended against, he would not take such an optimistic viewpoint.

In fact, the Blue Lightning, who was considered to be on par with the Sword Saint, had achieved a feat of supremacy unbounded by slaying a falling star with a single slice of his katana during the decisive battle for the Imperial Capital.

That star had been cut down through the combined effect of Cecilus’s swordsmanship and the Dream Sword’s power; he did not think that Reinhard, unable to draw the Dragon Sword as he was, could replicate such a feat.

But, even if it was grounds for being careless, that was no reason to underestimate him.

Ultimately, I'd say the best argument is one using Al Shario. Al Shario is the pinnacle of destructive acts, surpassing the breath of Dragons, being able to slay Dragons, and being able to severely injure Divine Dragon Aldebaran without even a direct hit (though VolcanicAl is said to be weaker than even Volcanica's dragonhusk).

Reinhard’s feet appeared to lightly tap the star’s surface.

In the next moment, the trajectory of the star dropped by Al Shario changed, and veered towards the caster, “Aldebaran”, causing the fierce starlight to rapidly approach it.

Witnessing it the Dragon spat a curse, meeting the attack with its almighty breath.

Aldebaran: [――――]

A moment later, dazzling crimson and white light consumed the sky, creating the illusion that the night had come to an end.

Originally, the scene was supposed to be that of Reinhard being struck by a star, but with this event’s occurrence being actively perverted, the night sky being set ablaze was the conclusion, simple as. ――False, as the story was not drawing to a close yet.

The shattered star burst into innumerable glittering fragments, carpet bombing the Sand Sea.

Aldebaran: [Gu, uuu…]

Naturally, Aldebaran, who was on the ground, was also blown away, his entire body accumulating several burns as he collapsed onto the sand.

Soon, he heard a rumbling that did not resemble that of a falling star from not too far away, and with difficulty he turned his neck to look towards the place it came from, where he saw “Aldebaran”, with a broken wing and another that had been severed, having powerlessly fallen to the ground.

And then――,

Reinhard: [It is regrettable that it had to come to this.]

Towards the collapsed Aldebaran’s side, Reinhard walked.

Leaving aside the half-dead Dragon and Aldebaran, he had been swallowed by the cataclysmic light of a star, yet did not seem to bear any signs of such.

He had heard that the Sin Archbishop of Greed had killed Reinhard once, but how had that been done? —Arc 9, Chapter 14

It is said that Reinhard would be unable to slay Al Shario bare-handed, a feat Cecilus achieved after combining his swordsmanship with the power of the Dream Sword:

That Al Shario could not be defended against, he would not take such an optimistic viewpoint.

In fact, the Blue Lightning, who was considered to be on par with the Sword Saint, had achieved a feat of supremacy unbounded by slaying a falling star with a single slice of his katana during the decisive battle for the Imperial Capital.

That star had been cut down through the combined effect of Cecilus’s swordsmanship and the Dream Sword’s power; he did not think that Reinhard, unable to draw the Dragon Sword as he was, could replicate such a feat.

But, even if it was grounds for being careless, that was no reason to underestimate him. —Arc 9, Chapter 14

So the implication would be that Cecilus with his Enchanted Swords is stronger than base Reinhard or VolcanicAl. Whether he'd scale to Reinhard w/DSReid's AP is more questionable, so a possible solution is to (given base Reinhard is on the edge of 5-C already) give Cecilus a baseline 5-C rating with his Enchanted Swords.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Imo forget all the statements, that has been a confusing mess for years, and continues to be a confusing mess. I agree with Al Shario being the best method.

5-C with Enchanted Sword for Cecilius is fine with me, anything more that goes back into the confusion...

 

[VortechsTG]

Just remember that if we give Cecilus 5-C for cutting Al Shario we have to give Echidna, Roswaal, and Sphinx 5-C for being able to use it.

 

[Zabazab]

All of this, the whole time, was really for the Roswaal agenda. Clowns stay on top.

Moon level with Al Shario (It is a Forbidden Art termed as the zenith of destructive acts in this era, surpassing even[52] Dragonbreath, and not even Reinhard van Astrea can counter the spell bare-handed[52])

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Just remember that if we give Cecilus 5-C for cutting Al Shario we have to give Echidna, Roswaal, and Sphinx 5-C for being able to use it.

We got Roswaal reaching 5C before GTA 6

 

[Zabazab]

Things that have been accepted so far:

1. Cecilus' canon key will be baseline 5-C with his Enchanted Swords, scaling above bare-handed Reinhard via Al Shario.
2. Al Shario will scale to baseline 5-C, to be added to Echidna, Sphinx, and Roswaal's pages. Likely replacing the Star Staff?

Things that require evaluation:

1. Cecilus being faster than Reinhard, which makes Cecilus, Halibel, Reinhard, and Reid all comparable in terms of speed.
2. Cecilus being as skilled as Reinhard, which makes Cecilus, Halibel, and Reinhard comparable in the martial arts.
3. This then requiring Sword Saint Theresia and Young Wilhelm (Power of Love) be nerfed in both martial skill (stated to be far from Reinhard) and speed (Theresia's finest slash was blitzed by Reinhard). They'd likely be Genius and at least Sub-Relativistic+. Whether they'd have their 6-A AP nerfed depends on if they'd still be considered as having enough evidence of being superior to Arc 9 Garfiel.

Snip

Made concise.

 

[Gigi_4_life]

Snip

Thank you Zab, that about sums up everything


I can agree that the skill/martial arts relativity may need further discussion, as there are conflicting statements made in the story regarding that subject


As for speed though, I personally don't think there's any way to deny Cecilus being fastest in the verse anymore, as there are statements both in the story and outside of it (Q&As) stating Cecilus is faster than Reinhard

Spoiler: Q&A

Q: Considering the jump from the moon to the earth, wouldn’t Reinhard’s speed be several thousand times the speed of sound, allowing him to orbit around the Re:ZERO world in a few seconds? Who is the character closest in speed to Reinhard? How much of a difference in speed is there between Reinhard and the character closest to his speed?
A: That’s a smart question. However, since the Re:ZERO world is not Earth, we don’t know if the distance to the moon is the same as it is to Earth. It might be super close! (laughs) I did that scene with Reinhard kicking the moon back because I thought it would be fun, so I didn’t think too much about the specifics… But purely speaking of “who is the character closest in speed to Reinhard?” Cecilus would be faster than Reinhard. While he’s fast, Reinhard would probably be stronger if they fought. Speed and strength have different correlations.

Spoiler: ARC 9 CHAPTER 14

――Very well, Reinhard van Astrea was the strongest.

The Blue Lightning, Cecilus Segmunt, was faster; the Admirer, Halibel, made greater use of techniques; the Mad Prince, Vague Adgard, was further distanced from death; the Great Spirits enrolled among the Four Greats exceed him in Mana; the Sin Archbishops of the Witch Cult possessed irrational Authorities; the Witches of Sin had taken far more lives; many virtuous individuals were better at lying; and many scoundrels were more unfalteringly obstinate.

When looking at individual aspects generally, there were plenty of individuals who surpassed Reinhard.

Nevertheless, Reinhard van Astrea’s seat as the strongest would not be shaken. ――Tearing down that definitive strongest bastion, was the absolute victory condition levied upon Aldebaran.

I agree on what you said about Theresia and POL Wilhelm, I don't think there's any clear cut proof of them being on arc 9 Garfiel's level, but they definitely should be up there

 

[VortechsTG]

I kinda don't care anymore if y'all want to make Cecilus and Halibel comparable to the top tiers even if I disagree but I disagree strongly with the downgrades for Wilhelm and Theresia. There are just as many statements for Cecilus and Halibel being far behind Reinhard. I don't see why those should be treated any differently. It's just an inconsistency in how Tappei talks about them. And I don't think Theresia's finest slash, more of a feat of skill, being blitzed by Reinhard while she is nerfed vastly by the Sacrament of the Immortal King is a good measure at all.

As for AP, I actually think we need to have a discussion about that Garfiel feat because I had a conversation elsewhere that convinced me pretty much the only way to explain Garfiel's sudden massive power spike right before he performed that feat is that he accepted the magical shroud excitement from Subaru.

 

[Trxyway]

I also disagree with the POL Wilhelm's and Theresia's downgrade

 

[Zabazab]

As for AP, I actually think we need to have a discussion about that Garfiel feat because I had a conversation elsewhere that convinced me pretty much the only way to explain Garfiel's sudden massive power spike right before he performed that feat is that he accepted the magical shroud excitement from Subaru.

You can explain this in the main discussion thread, since afaik this isn't even somewhat hinted at anywhere in arc 8 or 9.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Vortech stop cooking my kitchen is burnt

I kinda don't care anymore if y'all want to make Cecilus and Halibel comparable to the top tiers even if I disagree but I disagree strongly with the downgrades for Wilhelm and Theresia. There are just as many statements for Cecilus and Halibel being far behind Reinhard.

Sorry what?
In wrath if we pretty much see how the interaction with the both of them would go and while yeah Reinhard won (he IS the strongest afterall), it was atleast somewhat of a fight with him even getting injured whereas Peak Theresia got blitzes and one shotted

I don't see why those should be treated any differently. It's just an inconsistency in how Tappei talks about them. And I don't think Theresia's finest slash, more of a feat of skill, being blitzed by Reinhard while she is nerfed vastly by the Sacrament of the Immortal King is a good measure at all.

Skill defines how powerful you are with the flow method, Theresia with prime swing is on par with her sword saint self

As for AP, I actually think we need to have a discussion about that Garfiel feat because I had a conversation elsewhere that convinced me pretty much the only way to explain Garfiel's sudden massive power spike right before he performed that feat is that he accepted the magical shroud excitement from Subaru.

First of all, Tappei has made it clear on so many occasions that Garf gets stronger during his fights that it's genuinely illogical to even get to that conclusion especially when he clearly took inspiration from Luffy.

Secondly, as he too is a martial fighter who uses the flow method, MSE would break his flow too and while that might nef him somewhat of a boost. In the end it would be more of a Nerf because of his lack of control.

We see this w Cecilus directly telling us this.

 

[Gigi_4_life]

Skill defines how powerful you are with the flow method, Theresia with prime swing is on par with her sword saint self

I’d like to add that Tappei himself has stated in the most recent Re Zero neko that she was as strong as when she fought Wilhelm

Spoiler: RE ZERO NEKO

There is no doubt that the dead Theresia was as strong as when she fought Wilhelm, but Reinhard, who had drawn the Dragon Sword, did not even dare to look at her. This was the current “Sword Saint”, the strongest being in history, Reinhard Van Astrea.