BLEACH: Gremmy upgrade

[Infinite9Luck]

I have applied a threadban for @Samlex1234 for one day for their unnecessary outburst (literally all Damage did was say "hey, I can't respond right now, you don't have to wait for me, but this is my stance")

Hi, welcome back to the thread.

This is my final stance: https://vsbattles.com/threads/bleach-gremmy-upgrade.177712/post-7013077

I would like to have your opinion.

 

[Antvasima]

I have applied a threadban for @Samlex1234 for one day for their unnecessary outburst (literally all Damage did was say "hey, I can't respond right now, you don't have to wait for me, but this is my stance")

What did Samlex1234 say and do, more specifically? They have made a complaint to me about their thread ban.

 

[Floxy178]

I actually agree with you to an extent on this - in that we can compare it to his earlier attacks that did land on Zaraki and compare the damage he did to him which is much greater than those attacks - but the Galaxy Room wouldn't fall under that type of comparison. The Galaxy Room wasn't an attack that hit Zaraki like the others, but was made to expose him to vacuum.

I have same opinion as Damage on suicide argument. Gremmy's ability seems to be based on limits of his imagination rather than energy needed to create that.

To clarify, I don't think that if he can create a X level object, he can also imagine an attack with X level just because they would've need same energy. Personally I would even argue that imagining an attack is easier lol. If someone could prove that imagining dynamic events is easier than static ones, it could've solved the problem.

But I agree with argument of Gremmy not being able to imagine a body as strong as Zaraki's, as it's feat of similar type.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Antvasima

After all the effort from the OP to provide valid and reasonable counters to your argument, this is your response? ‘I don’t think’, with no valid reasoning, no explanation, no alternative argument for how imagination can be brought to reality without energy? And yet, you still disagree?

Went against Damage with this comment, insinuating Damage disagrees just because (when Damage has been debating the entire thread, but just because they don't agree with his arguments, repeatedly has asked to has his vote invalidated)

I just said I can't do a full response, so no, that's not my in-depth response to the OP's post above, that was me clarifying my position until I can get back to the thread.

Damage tries to clarify that he simply doesn't have the time right now for an in-depth response.

“I'll be going on holiday for several days very soon and won't be able to do much more than just check in on the forum. Don't hold up the thread on my account alone - just letting you know I won't be able to respond.“

You can’t say this and still disagree when you know that, unlike other members, your vote directly impacts the acceptance or rejection of the CRT and you can’t ask the OP to just leave this CRT open indefinitely. If you’re unable to engage, stay neutral until you can.

Then doubles down misinterpreting it, practically demanding Damage to change his vote

My vote doesn't get negated just because I'm unable to argue on the forum for a while. I've already stated I don't want to hold up the thread; if the votes come through to approve or reject it without me, then that's fine with me. I literally said nothing about asking the OP to keep the thread open indefinitely hence me saying:

I also said that if the thread happened to still be open then I'll contribute again, but that's not the same as me asking for the thread to stay open for my sake.

Damage once again tries to explain and clarify that he only meant that the thread can continue even without it, while leaving his position clear (reminder again, just because they don't like his points, doesn't mean he can't maintain his disagreement)

“Approval of Revisions”​

The concluding evaluations must be handled by Thread Moderators, Administrators, and Bureaucrats, who should make an effort to base their evaluations on valid arguments, not personal opinions.

So yes your vote is negated if you dont reply with a valid counter to the OP’s arguments. You are not a regular member Damage you can't just disagree based off “I don't think” which is simply a personal opinion that is backed up by no valid reasoning or evidence. Stay neutral untill you are ready to engage and provide a valid argument.

Yet Samlex continued to want to invalidate Damage's vote, demanding him to keep arguing (when he already has argued throughout the thread to give his position).

This comes after the thread finally calmed down after getting a bit heated, which honestly made it the more egregious to me that they so insistently went after Damage, when literally all Damage did was give a heads up about his lack of time to properly respond OP's most recent argument. As such, I gave him a time out to avoid the thread devolving into that (which if you read the rest of the posts from these, started getting derailed indeed)

Now, Damage did make an off-handed comment after the initial exchanges, but since our policy is for these kind of things to be handled privately (and I know Damage realizes he did wrong there), I didn't comment on it

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

At the end of the day, gremmy DID create a starry sky and outer space, this is solidified on the anime, novels and by the very author, so he should have the 4-A with the 7/8 clones cus of it. As for the whole explosion suicide I Don't care bout either way tbh.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Personally I would even argue that imagining an attack is easier lol. If someone could prove that imagining dynamic events is easier than static ones, it could've solved the problem.

But I agree with argument of Gremmy not being able to imagine a body as strong as Zaraki's, as it's feat of similar type.

Imagining an attack is not inherently easier, this is a bare assertion. It depends on the magnitude of the attack. The number of clones Gremmy uses demonstrates how difficult something is for him. The suicide creation required the complete sacrifice of all the clones he had created earlier.

Additionally, every creation before this was effortless for Gremmy, whereas the suicide attack visibly exhausted him and drained more energy. On top of that, this attack was meant to directly kill Zaraki, meaning Gremmy had no reason to produce less energy than in any of his previous attacks.

The actual progression of the fight shows that every previous creation was weaker than the next. Gremmy became increasingly frustrated that he couldn’t kill Zaraki and kept escalating his power. The fact that all his clones self-destructed and that Gremmy himself was exhausted proves undoubtedly that the explosion that hit Zaraki was far greater than any previous things created by his clones.

Additionally Gremmy's imagination suddenly collapsed after he attempted to either imagine Zaraki’s strength or recreate his body, but never collapsed before.

Thus, the conclusion is not that the suicide attack was easier, it clearly required more effort than any previous creation, and Zaraki is above the scope of Gremmy's imagination.

From Creation Page:
In order to apply to a character's capacity to harm other characters, that is their usual Attack Potency, their Creation has to be connected to their other abilities.

(The Visionary is both responsible of creation of space and suicide attack used to try to kill zaraki as proved above)

Spoiler: From Creation page

The first obvious requirement is that it must be certain that an actual creation feat took place.

(it took place and it is acknowledge by authors)

Furthermore, the object in question must be of physical nature

(It is a physical object, a pocket dimension containing space and stars)

In order to apply to a character's capacity to harm other characters, that is their usual Attack Potency, their Creation has to be connected to their other abilities.

(The Visionary is both responsible of creation of space and suicide attack used to try to kill zaraki as proved above)

the creation of the object(s) in question needs to happen within a reasonably short timeframe for the whole result to apply to the Attack Potency.

(It happen Instantly)

The quantification of valid creation feats follows a general rule of thumb and common sense. Things should be ranked at a level roughly equivalent to the size or, more specifically, the mass of the objects that get created.

(A starry Sky)

So honestly, unless concrete proof is provided that somehow disconnects the creation of the two attacks—both of which were created using the exact same ability—and proves that one attack required energy while the other used something entirely different, or that the two are unrelated despite originating from the same ability, it just seems like a case of mental gymnastics.

All of this things were explained here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/bleach-gremmy-upgrade.177712/post-7013077, if someone want to address the whole argument would be preferable.

 

[Adam1396]

For gremmy, creation definitely seemed tougher than haxing out with death hax or ee or whatever he potentially could have done

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Imagining an attack is not inherently easier, this is a bare assertion. It depends on the magnitude of the attack. The number of clones Gremmy uses demonstrates how difficult something is for him. The suicide creation required the complete sacrifice of all the clones he had created earlier.

Additionally, every creation before this was effortless for Gremmy, whereas the suicide attack visibly exhausted him and drained more energy. On top of that, this attack was meant to directly kill Zaraki, meaning Gremmy had no reason to produce less energy than in any of his previous attacks.

The actual progression of the fight shows that every previous creation was weaker than the next. Gremmy became increasingly frustrated that he couldn’t kill Zaraki and kept escalating his power. The fact that all his clones self-destructed and that Gremmy himself was exhausted proves undoubtedly that the explosion that hit Zaraki was far greater than any previous things created by his clones.

Additionally Gremmy's imagination suddenly collapsed after he attempted to either imagine Zaraki’s strength or recreate his body, but never collapsed before.

Thus, the conclusion is not that the suicide attack was easier, it clearly required more effort than any previous creation, and Zaraki is above the scope of Gremmy's imagination.

From Creation Page:
In order to apply to a character's capacity to harm other characters, that is their usual Attack Potency, their Creation has to be connected to their other abilities.

(The Visionary is both responsible of creation of space and suicide attack used to try to kill zaraki as proved above)

Spoiler: From Creation page

The first obvious requirement is that it must be certain that an actual creation feat took place.

(it took place and it is acknowledge by authors)

Furthermore, the object in question must be of physical nature

(It is a physical object, a pocket dimension containing space and stars)

In order to apply to a character's capacity to harm other characters, that is their usual Attack Potency, their Creation has to be connected to their other abilities.

(The Visionary is both responsible of creation of space and suicide attack used to try to kill zaraki as proved above)

the creation of the object(s) in question needs to happen within a reasonably short timeframe for the whole result to apply to the Attack Potency.

(It happen Instantly)

The quantification of valid creation feats follows a general rule of thumb and common sense. Things should be ranked at a level roughly equivalent to the size or, more specifically, the mass of the objects that get created.

(A starry Sky)

So honestly, unless concrete proof is provided that somehow disconnects the creation of the two attacks—both of which were created using the exact same ability—and proves that one attack required energy while the other used something entirely different, or that the two are unrelated despite originating from the same ability, it just seems like a case of mental gymnastics.

All of this things were explained here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/bleach-gremmy-upgrade.177712/post-7013077, if someone want to address the whole argument would be preferable.

As of this comment, I am switching to agreeing with the upgrade.

For reference purposes, how are you rewriting the current AP section for Gremmy?

 

[Bastolan27]

As of this comment, I am switching to agreeing with the upgrade.

For reference purposes, how are you rewriting the current AP section for Gremmy?

Originally, I was going to say "High 6-A, up to 4-A with clones," but I ran into a problem. Currently both Gremmy's and Kenpachi's base forms downscale from Shikai Kenny. So either we come up with another way to scale their base forms, maybe using the meteor creation feat (4.045 exatons), or we still downscale them from Shikai Kenny, which would now be 4-A, meaning the downscale would put their base at 4-B or something, but I’m not sure. I think we should take some time to discuss how they will scale, as it’s not as simple as just changing the upper value. Their entire scaling right now is based on the original values, so since that has changed, the whole scaling needs to be reconsidered.

TLDR: Since Shikai Kenpachi would change to 4-A, base Gremmy and base Kenpachi's scaling needs reconsidering. We either find another way to scale them, like the meteor feat (4.045 exatons), or downscale them to 4-B.

Since their base forms are rather isolated in this arc and essentially exist in a vacuum, it wouldn’t change any other scaling that isn’t already in the OP. So, it’s not like it would mess up the verse or anything; we just need the value for their base forms.

What do you think? Infinite9Luck

 

[Adam1396]

One thing should be noted, I don’t see why it should be shikai zaraki when gremmy clearly said full power of zaraki.
Gremmy was more than comfortable with all serious shikai zaraki in terms of power.
And gremmy being surprised doesn’t factually mean he was even superior since gremmy lacked experience, never met such strong opponent and zaraki just exceeded his expectations each time.

Tha being said, zaraki still scales to 7/10 gremmy whatever it is.

 

[Bastolan27]

One thing should be noted, I don’t see why it should be shikai zaraki when gremmy clearly said full power of zaraki.
Gremmy was more than comfortable with all serious shikai zaraki in terms of power.
And gremmy being surprised doesn’t factually mean he was even superior since gremmy lacked experience, never met such strong opponent and zaraki just exceeded his expectations each time.

Tha being said, zaraki still scales to 7/10 gremmy whatever it is.

Gremmy never saw Zaraki's max power, so it's unlikely that he could have imagined it accurately. If I believe your max power is a 6, I will imagine your max power to be a 6, even if, for whatever reason, it's actually a 10.

 

[Adam1396]

Gremmy never saw Zaraki's max power, so it's unlikely that he could have imagined it accurately. If I believe your max power is a 6, I will imagine your max power to be a 6, even if, for whatever reason, it's actually a 10.

He doesn’t have to see it lol. There's nothing to say he saw all the things he created till now.

It's a false equivalency, and the context here makes it worst. Don't forget gremmy himself was making zaraki stronger during their battle by zaraki's own admission, amd gremmy was still ok with it, was holding his own against serious zaraki who would have only 5-10x boost with eyepatch removal to reach peak of his shikai form. (I don't know what's exact amo for that). It's comparable to shikai bankai apm which doesn’t significantly damage the body as we have seen before in other case, even greater amp didn’t.

Not to mention Gremmy explicitly stated he fully imagined it. But his body not just failed, it totally fell apart which generic shikai bankai amp won't do.
Zaraki's bankai is either beyond conventional amp or he always had that power within it, he is just unable to utilize or release it. So gremmy not seen that level of power is also a flawefd argument since zaraki likely had that power within himself just left unused.
And gremmy was able to imagine that level of power without realizing the backlash he would get from it.

So from every angle, Gremmy imagining just full powered shikai zaraki would cause his entire body to fall apart seems too much unreasonable.

 

[Bastolan27]

He doesn’t have to see it lol. There's nothing to say he saw all the things he created till now.

It's a false equivalency, and the context here makes it worst. Don't forget gremmy himself was making zaraki stronger during their battle by zaraki's own admission, amd gremmy was still ok with it, was holding his own against serious zaraki who would have only 5-10x boost with eyepatch removal to reach peak of his shikai form. (I don't know what's exact amo for that). It's comparable to shikai bankai apm which doesn’t significantly damage the body as we have seen before in other case, even greater amp didn’t.

Not to mention Gremmy explicitly stated he fully imagined it. But his body not just failed, it totally fell apart which generic shikai bankai amp won't do.
Zaraki's bankai is either beyond conventional amp or he always had that power within it, he is just unable to utilize or release it.
And gremmy was able to imagine that level of power without realizing the backlash he would get from it.

So from every angle, Gremmy imagining just full powered shikai zaraki would cause his entire body to fall apart seems too much unreasonable.

He obviously knew what the other things he imagined looked like before he imagined them.

Most of us haven't "seen" a star, but we can imagine one because we have knowledge of it. We can't imagine something we don't know. Asserting that Gremmy could imagine Zaraki's power without knowing it is a quick slippery slope into NFL. Zaraki's Shikai amp isn't generic and never has been, it's part of what makes him an anomaly, just like how Ichigo's Bankai is a bigger multiplier than any other.

 

[Adam1396]

He obviously knew what the other things he imagined looked like before he imagined them.

Most of us haven't "seen" a star, but we can imagine one because we have knowledge of it. We can't imagine something we don't know.

Be rational man. You only typed bunch of words that don't build up any argument. Where is the proof he saw these!!!
Known? Nah boy, we can imagine bunch of unknown wild things, or fantasy things without any set of logic or knowledge about it. It's just we don’t have the power to turn imagination into reality.

Asserting that Gremmy could imagine Zaraki's power without knowing it is a quick slippery slope into NFL. Zaraki's Shikai amp isn't generic and never has been, it's part of what makes him an anomaly, just like how Ichigo's Bankai is a bigger multiplier than any other.

I've never seen him having amp even near 10 on his profile let alone above 10. So it's still super generic.
What's the basis to say ichigo's bankai is bigger multiplier?
Asserting as well within the fine line. He fought zaraki. So he can more than likely gauge his full power, jncluding underutilised portion. His reiryoku didn’t just pop up out of nowhere, it's been within him.


Man I'm gonna sleep and see tomorrow if you have actually brought up any convincing argument.

 

[Floxy178]

Imagining an attack is not inherently easier, this is a bare assertion. It depends on the magnitude of the attack. The number of clones Gremmy uses demonstrates how difficult something is for him. The suicide creation required the complete sacrifice of all the clones he had created earlier.

I mean if it was easier, it would've proved that his strongest attack > strongest creation.

Additionally, every creation before this was effortless for Gremmy, whereas the suicide attack visibly exhausted him and drained more energy. On top of that, this attack was meant to directly kill Zaraki, meaning Gremmy had no reason to produce less energy than in any of his previous attacks.

The actual progression of the fight shows that every previous creation was weaker than the next. Gremmy became increasingly frustrated that he couldn’t kill Zaraki and kept escalating his power. The fact that all his clones self-destructed and that Gremmy himself was exhausted proves undoubtedly that the explosion that hit Zaraki was far greater than any previous things created by his clones.

This makes sense for me then. I agree with this argument too.

Thus, the conclusion is not that the suicide attack was easier, it clearly required more effort than any previous creation, and Zaraki is above the scope of Gremmy's imagination.

I didn't say imagining the attack was easier though? I was comparing as concepts, not suicide attack specifically or so. If imagining an attack is easier, it means that Gremmy can create an attack of same level with less effort (which could prove that suicide attack is way stronger than outer space feat). I wasn't measuring difficulty by energy but his capability of conceiving before seeing your argument above.

 

[Bastolan27]

Be rational man. You only typed bunch of words that don't build up any argument. Where is the proof he saw these!!!
Known? Nah boy, we can imagine bunch of unknown wild things, or fantasy things without any set of logic or knowledge about it. It's just we don’t have the power to turn imagination into reality.

People can’t imagine what they don’t know. Our imaginations of the unknown are just things we already know, put together in new ways. Even all the fantasy stuff you talk about is rooted in human nature and the known world. That’s why you can spot similarities between a lot of real-life concepts and fantastical ones, because fantasy is just an exaggeration of what already exists, or the creation of something "new" based on everything we already know. Like Pegasus (winged horses) or Dragons (flying reptiles). Even magic is limited by what we know. A fireball is just an application of the existing concept of fire, and time manipulation or dimensionality is based on concepts we already understand, even if we don’t fully grasp them. imagination is infinite, but only within the boundaries of what we can perceive and conceptualize. We think we're imagining the unknown, but we're really just stretching the known into new forms.

I've never seen him having amp even near 10 on his profile let alone above 10. So it's still super generic.
What's the basis to say ichigo's bankai is bigger multiplier?
Asserting as well within the fine line. He fought zaraki. So he can more than likely gauge his full power, jncluding underutilised portion. His reiryoku didn’t just pop up out of nowhere, it's been within him.


Man I'm gonna sleep and see tomorrow if you have actually brought up any convincing argument.

Gremmy imagining outer space or a vacuum isn’t the same as imagining Kenny’s full strength. Space is something humanity already understands, and most people at least have a basic idea of what it is. Kenny’s true power, though, is an unknown. Gremmy had no real knowledge of Zaraki’s limits, so all he could do was make an assumption, not an accurate recreation. Even Zaraki himself doesn’t know his own full strength. At best, Gremmy was making an educated guess based on what he’d seen, but that’s not enough for a perfect recreation. Actually, your argument that Gremmy imagined Zaraki being stronger just proves this, if Gremmy was overestimating Zaraki’s strength, it shows he couldn’t really know how strong he was.
Gremmy knows power, and he knows Kenpachi. He can assume Kenny’s max power or imagine what he thinks it is, but to imagine Kenny’s true power accurately, he would have to know it or have some sort of reference. I can’t imagine your face accurately without knowing it or having any reference, even though I’ve seen faces before.

And one more thing, where do you get the idea that people can feel each other’s max powers at all times? If that were the case, why do people get surprised by transformations and power-ups? That’s idiotic and something that was never stated, shown, or supported in the manga.

Don't be so arrogant and condescending when you're this wrong.

 

[Adam1396]

People can’t imagine what they don’t know. Our imaginations of the unknown are just things we already know, put together in new ways. Even all the fantasy stuff you talk about is rooted in human nature and the known world. That’s why you can spot similarities between a lot of real-life concepts and fantastical ones, because fantasy is just an exaggeration of what already exists, or the creation of something "new" based on everything we already know. Like Pegasus (winged horses) or Dragons (flying reptiles). Even magic is limited by what we know. A fireball is just an application of the existing concept of fire, and time manipulation or dimensionality is based on concepts we already understand, even if we don’t fully grasp them. imagination is infinite, but only within the boundaries of what we can perceive and conceptualize. We think we're imagining the unknown, but we're really just stretching the known into new forms.

So much for nothing. There's no point bringing literature here. It's utterly useless even contextwise. You better look into the idea of imagination, fantasy more rather than trynna be cool dude which you aren’t.

Gremmy imagining outer space or a vacuum isn’t the same as imagining Kenny’s full strength. Space is something humanity already understands, and most people at least have a basic idea of what it is. Kenny’s true power, though, is an unknown. Gremmy had no real knowledge of Zaraki’s limits, so all he could do was make an assumption, not an accurate recreation. Even Zaraki himself doesn’t know his own full strength. At best, Gremmy was making an educated guess based on what he’d seen, but that’s not enough for a perfect recreation. Actually, your argument that Gremmy imagined Zaraki being stronger just proves this, if Gremmy was overestimating Zaraki’s strength, it shows he couldn’t really know how strong he was.
Gremmy knows power, and he knows Kenpachi. He can assume Kenny’s max power or imagine what he thinks it is, but to imagine Kenny’s true power accurately, he would have to know it or have some sort of reference. I can’t imagine your face accurately without knowing it or having any reference, even though I’ve seen faces before.

It is since you brough literal meaning. Actually nothing can be technically unknown if I have to give your opinion regarding known, unknown any value in the first place.
Zaraki's true power is unknown....
You are contradicting yourself kid.

Gremmy didn’t have knowledge (prior knowledge of course), but he guessed it correct later. Not that he needs to worry about perfect knowledge when he can just his "guess" into reality. Same for his outer space creation. You are undermining the fact that gremmy grew during this battle. Zaraki not being aware of his full power isn't even a point.
Another falls equivalence again. Imagining face and imagining spiritual energy ain't same thing which can be accurately gauged

And one more thing, where do you get the idea that people can feel each other’s max powers at all times? If that were the case, why do people get surprised by transformations and power-ups? That’s idiotic and something that was never stated, shown, or supported in the manga.

Being surprised!! That's a stupid thing to point out. I will just put the examples here later to show why.
The thing is they are in a suppressed state all the times. But they still can accurately guess each others strength. They get surprised by transformation more than power up. Cause most of them are unaware of each other's abilities not reatsu level.

Don't be so arrogant and condescending when you're this wrong.

He he. Anya smiling at the corner

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima


Went against Damage with this comment, insinuating Damage disagrees just because (when Damage has been debating the entire thread, but just because they don't agree with his arguments, repeatedly has asked to has his vote invalidated)


Damage tries to clarify that he simply doesn't have the time right now for an in-depth response.


Then doubles down misinterpreting it, practically demanding Damage to change his vote


Damage once again tries to explain and clarify that he only meant that the thread can continue even without it, while leaving his position clear (reminder again, just because they don't like his points, doesn't mean he can't maintain his disagreement)


Yet Samlex continued to want to invalidate Damage's vote, demanding him to keep arguing (when he already has argued throughout the thread to give his position).

This comes after the thread finally calmed down after getting a bit heated, which honestly made it the more egregious to me that they so insistently went after Damage, when literally all Damage did was give a heads up about his lack of time to properly respond OP's most recent argument. As such, I gave him a time out to avoid the thread devolving into that (which if you read the rest of the posts from these, started getting derailed indeed)

Now, Damage did make an off-handed comment after the initial exchanges, but since our policy is for these kind of things to be handled privately (and I know Damage realizes he did wrong there), I didn't comment on it

Okay. I think that 1 day to cool off from this thread seems reasonable in that case.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

As of this comment, I am switching to agreeing with the upgrade.

For reference purposes, how are you rewriting the current AP section for Gremmy?

Hi, thanks for agreeing. I'll answer that now.

This makes sense for me then. I agree with this argument too.

Thanks for having changed your mind at the end!

What do you think? Infinite9Luck

Hi, thanks for the input, what was agreed upon during the thread for now is that the clones are no longer considered a linear upgrade because imagination is not a mathematical concept. To put it simply, combining two or three instances of imagination does not necessarily result in double or triple the strength. Instead, there can be an exponential increase, as imagination is an abstract concept. This means that downscaling will no longer apply. Past ratings doesn't need to be changed.

What will be upgraded are the characters who scale directly to the feat itself.

Additionally, other experts on the verse, such as @Arc7Kuroi, with whom I’ve talked this, will be handling future scaling in upcoming threads and can further analyze or refine this concept as needed and fix the scaling chain since lot of profiles currently need that too.

So for now and this thread, we stick to this .

 

[Infinite9Luck]

The proposed change will look like this: @LephyrTheRevanchist

Gremmy:

At least Multi-Continent level (Gremmy is probably the strongest Sternritter and no other Sternritter dared to challenge him, albeit whether this encompasses the full capabilities of The Visionary or simply his base power is unknown, he can somewhat keep up with eyepatch Zaraki, and only started losing because he imagined himself losing, up to Multi-Solar System level with 7 and 8 clones (Upon summoning 7 clones, Gremmy was able to instantly create an outer space full of stars without effort. Using the same ability, The Visionary, he also fully sacrificed with an explosion the same exact 7 clones, which could injure Zaraki Kenpachi with his Shikai, this act required him more effort than anything before, with him wanting to win)

We will use thisfor the 4A value as per feats page: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/R...ng_a_pocket_dimension_containing_a_starry_sky

Zaraki:

At least Multi-Continent level (Consistently has the upper hand against Gremmy), at least Moon level without eyepatch (long explanation copy-pasted from profile), up to Multi-Solar System level with full power Nozarashi (He was able to tanks the complete suicide of all Gremmy's clones, which previously created outer space, his power is so great that made Gremmy's imagination collapse), far higher with Nozarashi and without eyepatch, even higher with Bankai

The only other 2 people that will direclty scales are Gerard, and True Bankai Toshiro for this thread.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Feat is 3B, not 4A


The manga depicts a galaxy within the space’s stars

 

[Myxenete]

Feat is 3B, not 4A


The manga depicts a galaxy within the space’s stars

Anime only depicts a starry sky and the anime currently takes precedent over the manga's depictions

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Anime takes precedence, however even within manga that could be argue to be a cluster of stars and not a galaxy, hence the most accurate and safe rating is 4A.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

The anime isn’t trying to override or contradict the manga for you to say “it takes precedence” you just can’t see it as well lol


It also serves no narrative purpose to remove the galaxy, none of the Staff working in the anime provably care for a downgrade of the feat, as such we should go with the manga which holds Kubo’s intentions slightly better due to having a clearer page to draw on

As we know that Bleach Author Titr Kubo intends to have a galaxy in the structure the feat going anywhere below 3B is downplay

Anime takes precedence, however even within manga that could be argue to be a cluster of stars and not a galaxy, hence the most accurate and safe rating is 4A.

No it’s not, the blog you linked shows the image of what a star cluster would be

None of them hold the shape of a galaxy and even googling up star clusters give you a shape that’s different from what the manga showed

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

What is this thread's current state?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

What is this thread's current state?

1 staff in disagreement (Duedate)
1 staff switched to neutral, but frankly should be counted as disagreement (Damage)
1 staff in favor (me)

 

[Infinite9Luck]

What is this thread's current state?

Hi, thanks for joining.

@Damage3245 set himself as neutral, @LephyrTheRevanchist agreed with the thread upgrade.

My latest and final stance is here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/bleach-gremmy-upgrade.177712/post-7013077

You can read as well, more proof are in the OP itself.

However I asked Damage to comment again my scaling

 

[Adam1396]

Anime only depicts a starry sky and the anime currently takes precedent over the manga's depictions

There are some type pf details which can be more apparent on manga panel than anime.
That's not a retcon.

From this kind of shot you aren’t supposed to see galaxies anyway. Galaxies are very much visible in manga panel.
We should take into consideration the technique's name and outerspace statements as well. You can't leave these out.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I will note the following: The higher the feat, the more scrutiny it will have. There's at least (for the time being ) another 4-A feat, but if you go push for 3-B, outlier talks will definitely come here.

Currently, we do favor the anime depiction of events, so the galaxy being removed is notable indeed.

 

[Adam1396]

Gg

 

[Infinite9Luck]

I will note the following: The higher the feat, the more scrutiny it will have. There's at least (for the time being ) another 4-A feat, but if you go push for 3-B, outlier talks will definitely come here.

Currently, we do favor the anime depiction of events, so the galaxy being removed is notable indeed.

Yes, there is a thread stating that anime scaling and depiction take precedence.

Additionally, I highly doubt that is a galaxy to begin with. All the dots appear yellow, resembling stars, and we only see an amassed cluster of them. The claim that it is a galaxy is vague at best, and the fact that the anime removed it makes this even more apparent. Also there's no canon name for the ability either in both manga or anime that say galaxy. What's stated is outer space.

Stars Cluster:

 

[Adam1396]

I will note the following: The higher the feat, the more scrutiny it will have. There's at least (for the time being ) another 4-A feat, but if you go push for 3-B, outlier talks will definitely come here.

Currently, we do favor the anime depiction of events, so the galaxy being removed is notable indeed.

I understand your point.
What if SZ get's upgraded to 2C. I think the outlier will be inapplicable then.
Anyway I have issues with their worlds shaking calc as well. I will address these in another thread.
@Infinite9Luck Go for 4A now. We will handle things later. But off course include other relevant characters as well.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Yes, there is a thread stating that anime scaling and depiction take precedence.

Additionally, I highly doubt that is a galaxy to begin with. All the dots appear yellow, resembling stars, and we only see an amassed cluster of them. The claim that it is a galaxy is vague at best, and the fact that the anime removed it makes this even more apparent. Also there's no canon name for the ability either in both manga or anime that say galaxy. What's stated is outer space.

anime depiction only takes place if it's trying to override the manga which is not the case, they don't contradict each other, the medium of manga as still images which get more time and room to illustrate details leading to the inclusion of a galaxy while the anime medium requiring illustration of multiple frames cheapens the adaptations at times, this isn't grounds for overlooking manga material whatsoever especially given the writer only believes tybw is extended version for the fans rather than fixing the problems in his manga, further more the anime taking precedence over manga applies mostly to major narrative points due to the involvement of the author, if the whole reasoning rests on the idea that the writer chooses to make active modifications which is not provable as it is a minor visual change that most people overlook and something you cannot prove the staff making the anime or even Kubo care about via occams razor we can conclude it will not override the manga at all which holds his true intentions of including galaxies as a very small subset of it

Additionally, I highly doubt that is a galaxy to begin with. All the dots appear yellow, resembling stars, and we only see an amassed cluster of them. The claim that it is a galaxy is vague at best, and the fact that the anime removed it makes this even more apparent.

https://media.**********.net/attachments/1068381282976935936/1349764328349503628/IMG_6333.png?ex=67d4497d&is=67d2f7fd&hm=376b954ee72d95e8cf9691e3fe43ae204f2992a88c88121bdf636775472bdd67&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=2028&height=1437

it's not vague, it's blatant clear as day depiction of a galaxy, there's no contention about it, look up star clusters, none of them take this shape

Also there's no canon name for the ability either in both manga or anime that say galaxy. What's stated is outer space.

cool, disregard 4A, list this feat as spatial creation then

I will note the following: The higher the feat, the more scrutiny it will have. There's at least (for the time being ) another 4-A feat, but if you go push for 3-B, outlier talks will definitely come here.

we should not interpret in a way that goes in with standards and choose the results of the feat arbitrarily like this, if it's 3B it's 3B no buts or ifs

 

[Infinite9Luck]

anime depiction only takes place if it's trying to override the manga which is not the case, they don't contradict each other, the medium of manga as still images which get more time and room to illustrate details leading to the inclusion of a galaxy while the anime medium requiring illustration of multiple frames cheapens the adaptations at times, this isn't grounds for overlooking manga material whatsoever especially given the writer only believes tybw is extended version for the fans rather than fixing the problems in his manga, further more the anime taking precedence over manga applies mostly to major narrative points due to the involvement of the author, if the whole reasoning rests on the idea that the writer chooses to make active modifications which is not provable as it is a minor visual change that most people overlook and something you cannot prove the staff making the anime or even Kubo care about via occams razor we can conclude it will not override the manga at all which holds his true intentions of including galaxies as a very small subset of it

Honestly, you should make a thread if you are interested:

TYBW Anime is Canon

Intro This thread will be to talk about the TYBW anime’s canonicity, and I believe it should be held in regard with equal weight, if not superior to the manga. Evidence Kubo is confident in the anime being faithful to his vision. Kubo and Pierrot have been going back and forth several times...

vsbattles.com

Conclusion
I’m sure most of y’all won’t find this controversial, I’m just making this for formality’s sake. The conclusion is that the TYBW anime is canon and takes precedence as an adaptation, since it is a more completed version of Kubo’s vision for his story.

This is what is currently accepted on the wiki, if you don't like you can change it.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Honestly, you should make a thread if you are interested:

TYBW Anime is Canon

Intro This thread will be to talk about the TYBW anime’s canonicity, and I believe it should be held in regard with equal weight, if not superior to the manga. Evidence Kubo is confident in the anime being faithful to his vision. Kubo and Pierrot have been going back and forth several times...

vsbattles.com

Conclusion
I’m sure most of y’all won’t find this controversial, I’m just making this for formality’s sake. The conclusion is that the TYBW anime is canon and takes precedence as an adaptation, since it is a more completed version of Kubo’s vision for his story.

This is what is currently accepted on the wiki, if you don't like you can change it.

No I will not because I partially agree with anime overriding manga if the modification is major or makes sense

Yhwach destroying the realms is treated as ED rn but if he punches them into destruction without almighty then he'll get 3a/2c striking strength and it would override the manga as it's blatant and a major change it would make sense as well under the justification of power display

you can't prove the same for this thing because not a soul realistically cares about this provably

 

[Infinite9Luck]

You may think they don't care, but that's a bare assertion, unless you can prove they don't care, we stick with what the anime clearly show, so just a starry sky.
Moreover I'll let the moderators decide whatever is 4A or galaxy.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I gave a clear and concise reasoning as to why, occams razor supports me not you, I will not let you treat as though my reasoning does not exist, let's face the reality you just don't have any real arguments to make to support proving they gaf about visuals so you tried to throw the burden at me which I'm not gonna eat up, negative claims do not require to be proven

if you choose to dip from this particular topic and not defend your case then I'm completely fine with that and respect your decision

 

[Adam1396]

No I will not because I partially agree with anime overriding manga if the modification is major or makes sense

Yhwach destroying the realms is treated as ED rn but if he punches them into destruction without almighty then he'll get 3a/2c striking strength and it would override the manga as it's blatant and a major change it would make sense as well under the justification of power display

you can't prove the same for this thing because not a soul realistically cares about this provably

Calm down.
It will be 3B in future. Don't worry. You are correct on your stance. For now stick with 4A until we make changes of other profiles. Coz we will have to touch several other major feats to get 3B gremmy accepted.
If nobody cares, I myself will handle this.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

 

[Bastolan27]

The proposed change will look like this: @LephyrTheRevanchist

Gremmy:

At least Multi-Continent level (Gremmy is probably the strongest Sternritter and no other Sternritter dared to challenge him, albeit whether this encompasses the full capabilities of The Visionary or simply his base power is unknown, he can somewhat keep up with eyepatch Zaraki, and only started losing because he imagined himself losing, up to Multi-Solar System level with 7 and 8 clones (Upon summoning 7 clones, Gremmy was able to instantly create an outer space full of stars without effort. Using the same ability, The Visionary, he also fully sacrificed with an explosion the same exact 7 clones, which could injure Zaraki Kenpachi with his Shikai, this act required him more effort than anything before, with him wanting to win)

We will use thisfor the 4A value as per feats page: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/R...ng_a_pocket_dimension_containing_a_starry_sky

Zaraki:

At least Multi-Continent level (Consistently has the upper hand against Gremmy), at least Moon level without eyepatch (long explanation copy-pasted from profile), up to Multi-Solar System level with full power Nozarashi (He was able to tanks the complete suicide of all Gremmy's clones, which previously created outer space, his power is so great that made Gremmy's imagination collapse), far higher with Nozarashi and without eyepatch, even higher with Bankai

The only other 2 people that will direclty scales are Gerard, and True Bankai Toshiro for this thread.

Gremmy Base: (4.045 Exatons) (Clones: 16.88 ExaFoe)
Zaraki Base: (4.045 Exatons) (Shikai: 16.88 ExaFoe)

As I said, since their current base is no longer applicable (it was a downscale), their base will change to the only other feat we can scale them to, which is the meteor creation feat (4.045 Exatons).