[STAFF NEEDED] Reinstating Sailor Moon Conceptual Manipulation and Information Manipulation standing

[Vietthai96]

My decision remains that it is only 1 fundamental aspect, not multiple, and I find information type 2 the closest, despite having no direct implication that it is information but fits the bill the closest due to what Starseed does.

That's why I'm still neutral with it being conceptual

i mean, i just stated my opinion regarding the logic that X Manipulation is closest to/fit the most Y feats/statements thus Y should get X Manipulation

You are acting like concepts or informations(or any other metaphysical aspect) are the same for every verse in fiction when we know that most of the time they are different from verse to verse even tho they have the same type on the wiki.

Power equalization based on similarities between them is the basis of the wiki.

Where do you get the idea that i say information = concept?. Even though my grammar is very bad, i made it clear that just because something is metaphysical, doesn't mean it must concept, or be information

Since it's metaphysical, would you say just to ignore it unless the verse shows more evidence that it's either info2 or conceptual?

I'm not saying we ignore it, just evaluate it, and of course it at least should show something actually related to info 2 or concept. Also tbf here, nothing stated starseed is metaphysical or anything metaphysical, it is currently an assumption, interpretation based on contexts

 

[Johner2133451]

I'm not saying we ignore it, just evaluate it. Also tbf here, nothing stated starseed is metaphysical or anything metaphysical, it is currently an assumption, interpretation based on contexts

Would CM Type 3 qualified for this? Since the nature isn't elaborated

• 3. Lesser Fundamental Concepts: Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale, or concepts whose nature is not elaborated upon. Case-by-case specifications and explanations are necessary for such concepts and examples, and they are likely not going to meet the same standards for abilities such as High-Godly regeneration that other concepts may. Conceptual manipulation of this type can be resisted by those who resist sufficiently similar abilities, even if the exact mechanics may differ.

 

[Vietthai96]

Would CM Type 3 qualified for this? Since the nature isn't elaborated

• 3. Lesser Fundamental Concepts: Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale, or concepts whose nature is not elaborated upon. Case-by-case specifications and explanations are necessary for such concepts and examples, and they are likely not going to meet the same standards for abilities such as High-Godly regeneration that other concepts may. Conceptual manipulation of this type can be resisted by those who resist sufficiently similar abilities, even if the exact mechanics may differ.

Huh?, no, concept type 3 is just a concept without having their nature elaborated or "personal" concept. You still need concept to be stated directly or have something equivalent to get the ability, not having feats or statements with their nature not elaborated, because if feats or statements nature is not elaborated, we can't even assign any abilities for them let alone specific ability such as CM

 

[Johner2133451]

Huh?, no, concept type 3 is just a concept without having their nature elaborated or "personal" concept. You still need concept to be stated directly or have something equivalent to get the ability, not having feats or statements with their nature not elaborated, because if feats or statements nature is not elaborated, we can't even assign any abilities for them let alone specific ability such as CM

Alright I guess I can go with info2 as stated above by others

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Alright I guess I can go with info2 as stated above by others

Thats not how it works...

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

i mean, i just stated my opinion regarding the logic that X Manipulation is closest to/fit the most Y feats/statements thus Y should get X Manipulation

yeah I know. and how other manipulation are nearly identical but at the same time fundamentally different
so unique verse specific type scenario like this should only fall under 1 fundamental metaphysical aspect unless stated otherwise or shown otherwise

 

[HenshinIntervention]

I'm not saying we ignore it, just evaluate it, and of course it at least should show something actually related to info 2 or concept. Also tbf here, nothing stated starseed is metaphysical or anything metaphysical, it is currently an assumption, interpretation based on contexts

Star Seeds take authority over the destruction of mind, body and soul. Those aspects can be gone and the Star Seed will still remain and as the case for Sailor Guardians, they can regenerate from just their Star Seed (Sailor Saturn), and the Star Seed itself is the Perfect Form of everything.

Not sure how that's an "assumption", especially since they exist within the "Heart" of all things, even beings that lack those. "Heart" is not literally here and the same rhetoric is used in many verses to depict something metaphysical.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Ngl, if we follow with the the logic X Manipulation is closest power that fit Y then we should agree with this starseed feat having Conceptual Manipulation Type 1, Information Manipulation Type 2, Plot Manipulation, Reality Warping, Law Manipulation, Physics Manipulation, etc......., like all they also somewhat fit these kind of feats and is closet we can find

This sounds like a Fallacy but I can't be bothered to verify that rn. In any case, this is a poor representation of what the CRT is about. Technically speaking, anyone with conceptual hax would be able to warp reality, manipulate laws, change physics etc.

"Plot Manipulation" was never argued here and doesn't even make sense and I feel like you just added that here to make the CRT sound more exaggerated

Nah, i disagree with these chain of thought, just because something is somewhat metaphysical, doesn't mean it must be either concept or information, metaphysical is a very broad term

Everytime I see you on these types of threads your issues are a site-wide issue. If I bring up other verses I'd get accused of whataboutism, but really you can say this for literally any other Verse that doesn't say the word concept but still has conceptual hax anyway.

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

Where do you get the idea that i say information = concept?. Even though my grammar is very bad

Did you really read my post ? Yes you did but you didn't understand it, cause what i meant is you are acting like if you take one verse in the wiki that use info manip type x and you take another verse in the wiki also use info manip type x, then info manip type x is the same/identical for the 2 verses. You can repeat it with concept manip type x instead of info manip type x.

i made it clear that just because something is metaphysical, doesn't mean it must concept, or be information

I am not voicing for metaphysical aspect of a verse = concept or information (btw plot, fate... are also metaphysical aspect), i am voicing for the equalizatin of the metaphysical aspects(concept,information plot, fate...) until proven otherwise by the verse(hierarchization of metaphysical aspects).

I am voicing for turning metaphysicals aspect into an ability similar to Nonexistent Physiology.
Ex: Metaphysicals Aspect Manipulation
Nature:
1. Law
2. Causality
3. Fate
4. Information
5. Concepts
6. Plot
7. Other(Dao, essence, ether etc.)
Then come the

Spoiler: Order of Aspects

In fiction, some metaphysical aspects are often more fundamental than others or able to govern other aspects. E.g. Concepts frequently govern the laws of the universe and are more fundamental than them, such that manipulation of the laws can't influence concepts, but manipulating concepts also changes the laws to reflect the changes to reality performed when concepts were manipulated.

There is no default order to metaphysical aspects, meaning that if we have no additional information from the fiction a power comes from, we can not decide whether or not the ability to manipulate one aspect would be able to influence, overcome or be affected by another. For example, per default plot manipulation would not be able to manipulate concepts, but concept erasure can't necessarily be used to erase the plot either. In a vs-debate a clash between such powers may have an indeterminate outcome, unless at least one of the fictions involved clarifies how the interaction between the metaphysical aspects works.

and the

Spoiler: Metaphysical Equalization

As we can not list every possible kind of metaphysical aspect that may appear in fiction, not listed things like names, Dao, essence or ether are usually sorted into the existing abilities by judging what seems most similar to the ability even if it is not an exact equivalence. At the same time do different fictions at times call very similar ideas by different names, such that what is called concept in one fiction might end up being almost the same as what is called information in another.

As such it is at times reasonable to not hang on to the rigid classifications of our power and ability pages in vs-debates and allow for a more case-by-case comparison.

E.g. If in one fiction names are considered the essence of being and classified as concept manipulation and in another fiction names are also considered as fundamental part of existence, but classified as information manipulation instead as the explanation used digital metaphors, it would be possible to still equalize names in both verses to be the same metaphysical aspect, despite their classification.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

As we can not list every possible kind of metaphysical aspect that may appear in fiction, not listed things like names, Dao, essence or ether are usually sorted into the existing abilities by judging what seems most similar to the ability even if it is not an exact equivalence. At the same time do different fictions at times call very similar ideas by different names, such that what is called concept in one fiction might end up being almost the same as what is called information in another.

As such it is at times reasonable to not hang on to the rigid classifications of our power and ability pages in vs-debates and allow for a more case-by-case comparison.

E.g. If in one fiction names are considered the essence of being and classified as concept manipulation and in another fiction names are also considered as fundamental part of existence, but classified as information manipulation instead as the explanation used digital metaphors, it would be possible to still equalize names in both verses to be the same metaphysical aspect, despite their classification.

Considering that Star Seeds encompass all forms, sizes and names + the statement about Star Seeds being the Perfect Forms of Usagi and her friends (whom all have star Seeds), I am once again inclined to believe that this is just a roundabout way of saying Type 1 Concepts.

The OP lists the other more specific qualifications. Star Seeds are not bound by the destruction of mind, body and soul and the destruction of a Star Seed erases the object it represents across all of reality and their area of influence.

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

I agree with the thread

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Ngl, if we follow with the the logic X Manipulation is closest power that fit Y then we should agree with this starseed feat having Conceptual Manipulation Type 1, Information Manipulation Type 2, Plot Manipulation, Reality Warping, Law Manipulation, Physics Manipulation, etc......., like all they also somewhat fit these kind of feats and is closet we can find

Nah, i disagree with these chain of thought, just because something is somewhat metaphysical, doesn't mean it must be either concept or information, metaphysical is a very broad term

The wiki already follows this logic and there are several verses that has unique mechanics equalized. It is standard practice.

And it is necessary or we would be arbitrarily punishing any story that does something unique.

“Sorry we can’t index this ability because its too creative” is bad practice.

 

[Vietthai96]

Did you really read my post ? Yes you did but you didn't understand it, cause what i meant is you are acting like if you take one verse in the wiki that use info manip type x and you take another verse in the wiki also use info manip type x, then info manip type x is the same/identical for the 2 verses. You can repeat it with concept manip type x instead of info manip type x.

What are you on about??, you are literally put words into my mouth, read my post again, you are overthinking and thinking in a wrong direction

I am not voicing for metaphysical aspect of a verse = concept or information (btw plot, fate... are also metaphysical aspect), i am voicing for the equalizatin of the metaphysical aspects(concept,information plot, fate...) until proven otherwise by the verse(hierarchization of metaphysical aspects).

I am voicing for turning metaphysicals aspect into an ability similar to Nonexistent Physiology.
Ex: Metaphysicals Aspect Manipulation

this have nothing to do with this thread, if you want to propose this idea, better make a CRT about this

This sounds like a Fallacy but I can't be bothered to verify that rn. In any case, this is a poor representation of what the CRT is about. Technically speaking, anyone with conceptual hax would be able to warp reality, manipulate laws, change physics etc.

"Plot Manipulation" was never argued here and doesn't even make sense and I feel like you just added that here to make the CRT sound more exaggerated

aren't no way, that post is me arguing against @TheGreatJedi13 about that he think Info 2 is fine because it fit more with what presented in the thread, and is the clostest power he find that fit, can you guys stop twisting my words into something else???

Everytime I see you on these types of threads your issues are a site-wide issue. If I bring up other verses I'd get accused of whataboutism, but really you can say this for literally any other Verse that doesn't say the word concept but still has conceptual hax anyway.

It is a site-wide issues of course, but i never said that you need to namedrop the word concept, hell, even if you namedrop it, it could be well, non-qualifying concepts such as norminalism, idealism. Same with Info, namedrop Information doesn't automatically

The wiki already follows this logic and there are several verses that has unique mechanics equalized. It is standard practice.

And it is necessary or we would be arbitrarily punishing any story that does something unique.

“Sorry we can’t index this ability because its too creative” is bad practice.

Again, it is still getting indexed, but why it must be Information Type 2 and Concept Type 1 hax???, it could be whatever because all of this at best is assumption and interpretation, like what? your reason is hey that verse follow this logic and got X manipulation, so it is necessary that my verse should get the same X ability

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Again, it is still getting indexed, but why it must be Information Type 2 and Concept Type 1 hax???, it could be whatever because all of this at best is assumption and interpretation, like what? your reason is hey that verse follow this logic and got X manipulation, so it is necessary that my verse should get the same X ability

Because I have shoed in the OP that it matches the requirements for Information Type 2 and Concept Type 1 hax.

If you disagree that it matches the requirements you are free to point that out.

But frankly, no one has shown that it doesn’t fit other than not being called x and y.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

aren't no way, that post is me arguing against @TheGreatJedi13 about that he think Info 2 is fine because it fit more with what presented in the thread, and is the clostest power he find that fit, can you guys stop twisting my words into something else???

Why do you disagree with what they think? That's the whole point of the Metaphysical Aspect page, assigning the metaphysical aspect they think is closest to what the information suggests. You're just arbitrarily listing powers and abilities like plot Hax that haven't been mentioned here at all.
And most of them are by extension connected to a single hax (Changing physics can be done via conceptual manipulation).

It is a site-wide issues of course, but i never said that you need to namedrop the word concept, hell, even if you namedrop it, it could be well, non-qualifying concepts such as norminalism, idealism. Same with Info, namedrop Information doesn't automatically

The site wide issue isn't relevant to this thread, if you have problems than you are free to make another thread focusing on the general standards.

Again, it is still getting indexed, but why it must be Information Type 2 and Concept Type 1 hax???, it could be whatever because all of this at best is assumption and interpretation, like what? your reason is hey that verse follow this logic and got X manipulation, so it is necessary that my verse should get the same X ability

What do you mean "why must it be info type 2 and Type 1 Conceptual"? We think it qualifies for that stuff because the evidence suggests so.

Idk dude you just sound like you don't want the verse to have this hax at all, and your reasons boil down to "I think it's too vague"

 

[Vietthai96]

Because I have shoed in the OP that it matches the requirements for Information Type 2 and Concept Type 1 hax.

what requirement you said is just Starseed perform things that CM hax and Info hax can perform, so you think they must be Info 2 and CM hax. Literally your logic is: Starseed can do X, CM hax and Info hax can do X, so Starseed must be Info 2 and Concept. Like the first thread and the downgrade thread

Why do you disagree with what they think? That's the whole point of the Metaphysical Aspect page, assigning the metaphysical aspect they think is closest to what the information suggests. You're just arbitrarily listing powers and abilities like plot Hax that haven't been mentioned here at all.
And most of them are by extension connected to a single hax (Changing physics can be done via conceptual manipulation).

why can't i disagree with what they think?, or you say that i must agree with what they think???.

The site wide issue isn't relevant to this thread, if you have problems than you are free to make another thread focusing on the general standards.

i only said it once, you brought it up, so it is irrelevant

What do you mean "why must it be info type 2 and Type 1 Conceptual"? We think it qualifies for that stuff because the evidence suggests so.

i didn't said you guys are not allows to think what you guys thinks, i just disagree with the reasoning that all, you guys made this more complicated than it should be

Idk dude you just sound like you don't want the verse to have this hax at all, and your reasons boil down to "I think it's too vague"

Nice arguments, this isn't help the thread at all, and i didn't said it is too vague, my arguments simply is, just because an ability can achieves effects similar to concept hax or info 2 hax, doesn't mean it is concept hax and info 2 hax

 

[HenshinIntervention]

what requirement you said is just Starseed perform things that CM hax and Info hax can perform, so you think they must be Info 2 and CM hax. Literally your logic is: Starseed can do X, CM hax and Info hax can do X, so Starseed must be Info 2 and Concept. Like the first thread and the downgrade thread

You're extremely obtuse.

why can't i disagree with what they think?, or you say that i must agree with what they think???.

No. What they think is the closest match is their opinion, your reasons for disagreeing with them is literally "well you can say the same for other haxes", but that doesn't mean their preferred option is any less valid.

i only said it once, you brought it up, so it is irrelevant

Keep it irrelevant

i didn't said you guys are not allows to think what you guys thinks, i just disagree with the reasoning that all, you guys made this more complicated than it should be

Your reasoning doesn't actually acknowledge anything. You're just ignoring things for the sake of ignoring it.

Nice arguments, this isn't help the thread at all, and i didn't said it is too vague, my arguments simply is, just because an ability can achieves effects similar to concept hax or info 2 hax, doesn't mean it is concept hax and info 2 hax

Ok you're not worth the time, this is very obtuse. What you just said is the whole point of verse and metaphysical equalization, which is to assign things in fiction to the hax that it's most similar to (Star Seeds/Perfect Star Forms --> Type 1 Concepts). If you have a problem with that please take this to another thread.

 

[Johner2133451]

Nice arguments, this isn't help the thread at all, and i didn't said it is too vague, my arguments simply is, just because an ability can achieves effects similar to concept hax or info 2 hax, doesn't mean it is concept hax and info 2 hax

So what ability do you think would qualify?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

what requirement you said is just Starseed perform things that CM hax and Info hax can perform, so you think they must be Info 2 and CM hax. Literally your logic is: Starseed can do X, CM hax and Info hax can do X, so Starseed must be Info 2 and Concept. Like the first thread and the downgrade thread

so what are requirements then?

Since me linking the text from the respective pages and showing how star feeds fit in both definitions isn’t enough.

 

[Johner2133451]

Honestly I could see Starseed can have CM2 like how Ichibei has it as he manipulate names which governs the nature of people

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Honestly I could see Starseed can have CM2 like how Ichibei has it as he manipulate names which governs the nature of people

The difference between 1 and 2 is that, star seeds are unaffected by the destruction of their forms, Sailor Saturn still existed even though Hotaru’s mind, body, and soul were destroyed. If it was CM2 star seeds would disappeared of the form was destroyed.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Honestly I could see Starseed can have CM2 like how Ichibei has it as he manipulate names which governs the nature of people

What IamUnanimousInThat said + Affecting the Star Seed directly would erase the object it represents permanently, whereas the opposite wouldn't affect the Star Seed.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Bump

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Bump

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Bump

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Bump

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Bump

 

[Johner2133451]

The difference between 1 and 2 is that, star seeds are unaffected by the destruction of their forms, Sailor Saturn still existed even though Hotaru’s mind, body, and soul were destroyed. If it was CM2 star seeds would disappeared of the form was destroyed.

Ok CM1 ig

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Bump

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

So would anyone get concept/info manipulation from this?

Also, type 2 concept manipulation looks ok at a glance, not sure about information manipulation.

Given my explanation here about the difference between Type 1 Concepts and Type 2 concepts:

The difference between 1 and 2 is that, star seeds are unaffected by the destruction of their forms, Sailor Saturn still existed even though Hotaru’s mind, body, and soul were destroyed. If it was CM2 star seeds would disappeared of the form was destroyed.

Do you think think this explanation would convince for you to change your vote from Type 2 to Type 1?

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Still waiting for mods willing to evaluate the vote on the CRT

 

[Reiner04]

So whats the main argument against concept type 1? Any tldr? @Vietthai96

 

[HenshinIntervention]

So whats the main argument against concept type 1? Any tldr? @Vietthai96

what requirement you said is just Starseed perform things that CM hax and Info hax can perform, so you think they must be Info 2 and CM hax. Literally your logic is: Starseed can do X, CM hax and Info hax can do X, so Starseed must be Info 2 and Concept. Like the first thread and the downgrade thread

Issue with this is that the Site Standards quite literally allow you to equalize Metaphysical concepts to the closest hax indexxed on the site given the evidence is provided. I explained to Vietthai that their issues are a site-wide one but they keep denying Type 1 Conc for Star Seeds because they don't agree with what the site practices.

Other than that it's a whole lot of "it's too vague" with nothing beyond that. I already went through the major contentions earlier on this thread and nobody replied with a proper debunk.

 

[Reiner04]

Issue with this is that the Site Standards quite literally allow you to equalize Metaphysical concepts to the closest hax indexxed on the site given the evidence is provided. I explained to Vietthai that their issues are a site-wide one but they keep denying Type 1 Conc for Star Seeds because they don't agree with what the site practices.

Other than that it's a whole lot of "it's too vague" with nothing beyond that. I already went through the major contentions earlier on this thread and nobody replied with a proper debunk.

Alight. I find myself being fine with concept type 1.

Star seeds contain all the information that makes a sailor guardian. When in control of a star seed, a person can completely change aspects of a person's being. Can turn someone who is good to evil. Can increase their power, and change their abilities.

Neutral on infos.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Neutral on infos.

Anything I can do to clear up things regarding Info Type 2?

 

[Reiner04]

Anything I can do to clear up things regarding Info Type 2?

Nothing much. It's just I don't feel strongly about infos type 2 reading the OP. Are there any evidence regarding Starseed being info that are fundamentals of the universe? If there it can help.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Nothing much. It's just I don't feel strongly about infos type 2 reading the OP. Are there any evidence regarding Starseed being info that are fundamentals of the universe? If there it can help.

wdym by the bolded part? Are you asking if Information is fundamental in Sailor Moon?
The argument is that Star Seeds are both Conceptual and (Fundamental) Information, they are what is necessary for anything to be anything.
For example, a Sailor Guardian isn't a Sailor Guardian without their Sailor Crystal. Their abilities, appearance, age, weapons etc are entirely based on their Star Seed. Likewise, a Planet's surface, atmosphere etc are dictated by its star seed (All Sizes, forms and names have Star Seeds and Galaxia has directly destroyed Planets by simply pointing at their Seed and taking it)

These "information" or "aspect" can be directly manipulated by certain individuals (Sailor Galaxia) to the point where they can hinder specific abilities that Guardians have (regeneration). Likewise, if Galaxia or whoever wanted to, they can change a Planet or anything else's entire makeup to their whim by manipulating the Star Seed of the object. Galaxia had managed to remake the Guardian's bodies to her whim and gave them powers that they never had prior.

 

[Reiner04]

For example, a Sailor Guardian isn't a Sailor Guardian without their Sailor Crystal. Their abilities, appearance, age, weapons etc are entirely based on their Star Seed. Likewise, a Planet's surface, atmosphere etc are dictated by its star seed (All Sizes, forms and names have Star Seeds and Galaxia has directly destroyed Planets by simply pointing at their Seed and taking it)

These "information" or "aspect" can be directly manipulated by certain individuals (Sailor Galaxia) to the point where they can hinder specific abilities that Guardians have (regeneration). Likewise, if Galaxia or whoever wanted to, they can change a Planet or anything else's entire makeup to their whim by manipulating the Star Seed of the object. Galaxia had managed to remake the Guardian's bodies to her whim and gave them powers that they never had prior.

Ig that's fine then.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Ig that's fine then.

Here's the scans for what I said (they were on the thread already but I'll repost them again)
OP has scans for the Guardians being remade.

 

[Vietthai96]

Somehow i was completely lost the notification of this thread, bruhh, anyway, will be busy for a while before i can look at this thread again