[STAFF NEEDED] Reinstating Sailor Moon Conceptual Manipulation and Information Manipulation standing

[HenshinIntervention]

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[Iamunanimousinthat]

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[HenshinIntervention]

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[HenshinIntervention]

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[Iamunanimousinthat]

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[HenshinIntervention]

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[HenshinIntervention]

Just want to point this out to newcomers reading this thread
It's blatantly stated that Star Seeds encompass all sizes, shapes and names. However, some of these beings don't have a "shape" or any real "size". Some of them are just darkness (Chaos, Metalia), some of them are just Will with no form (Nemesis' True Form), Chaos is functionally Nonexistent and the Ghosts and all Chaos Spawns are purely Non-Physical.

My point is that Star Seeds aren't just limited to all sizes, shapes and names. They encompass things that lack all of those, as evidenced by the existence of the Dark Seeds of the Cauldron (All of Chaos' Spawns). Whilst Usagi wields the Light of the Cauldron, Chaos wields the Darkness of the Cauldron. There are Physical beings and Non Physical beings, there are existing beings and there are Nonexistent beings (Chaos, Metalia), it's dualistic. It's what makes up everything. Star Seeds make up everything.

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[Iamunanimousinthat]

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[HenshinIntervention]

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[Agnaa]

Just want to point this out to newcomers reading this thread
It's blatantly stated that Star Seeds encompass all sizes, shapes and names. However, some of these beings don't have a "shape" or any real "size". Some of them are just darkness (Chaos, Metalia), some of them are just Will with no form (Nemesis' True Form), Chaos is functionally Nonexistent and the Ghosts and all Chaos Spawns are purely Non-Physical.

My point is that Star Seeds aren't just limited to all sizes, shapes and names. They encompass things that lack all of those, as evidenced by the existence of the Dark Seeds of the Cauldron (All of Chaos' Spawns). Whilst Usagi wields the Light of the Cauldron, Chaos wields the Darkness of the Cauldron. There are Physical beings and Non Physical beings, there are existing beings and there are Nonexistent beings (Chaos, Metalia), it's dualistic. It's what makes up everything. Star Seeds make up everything.

Pinging as per request.

@Executor_N0 @Elizhaa @PrinceofPein @Bobsican @Everything12 @Deceived3596 @TheGreatJedi13

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Will give it a long read after I get home. Since the images won't load.

Also would it be possible to get the references for each scans used so I can check context myself

 

[Deceived3596]

I'll comment right now as a reminder that I got the ping, and for me to address this later whenever I have the time and desire to delve into the OP and the proceeding messages.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Hard disagree with Information Manipulation

The scans used can be interpreted both ways whether it is conceptual or not
and contextually reading it I haven't seen any clear indication it is referencing abstractions.

furthermore, history doesn't necessarily mean it is concept as well

What I can gather are mostly space-time hax which might fall into Causality hax since it is history related
while the incarnation references mostly planets rather than abstract God from Myths.

I'll wait for other opinion but my current stance is
Disagree for Information
Neutral for Concept

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Just to clarify for future discussion: People often say that the point about Mamoru's star seed being erased affecting his daughter is merely related to Acausality and nothing Conceptual. However, this is ignoring how in the same Arc, Mamoru had already been erased from existence in the Present. This is what happens to him a couple panels into the first chapter.

The fact that Existence Erasure in the present wasn't enough to erase his daughter (in the future) but his star seed being erased did the job, indicates that affecting Star Seeds have far more disastrous consequences than simply erasing/killing beings. Which ties into how Star Seeds are fundamental objects in Sailor Moon, because if you erase the Star Seed of something, everything that depends on that thing (Mamoru) is immediately affected (Chibiusa perma dying).

Also, SM characters already have Acausality. Mamoru in previous arcs had already interacted with and even channeled power from his Future Self, King Endymion. King Endymion himself was unaffected by Mamoru's existence being erased in the present and only got erased after Mamoru's star seed got erased, which in turn erased Chibiusa.

A common refute to this is that "Star Seeds just bypass Acausality then"... Except Star Seeds are literally stated to contain everything about the entity it represents. If you erase that than you erase everything pertaining to that individual or entity. This has nothing to do with Star Seeds simply having a special power to negate Acausality, it's fundamental.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

while the incarnation references mostly planets rather than abstract God from Myths.

It actually references both, as seen with both Sailor Venus and Sailor Moon:

contextually reading it I haven't seen any clear indication it is referencing abstractions.

I also want to refute this misconception. Concepts do not have to reference an abstraction, they can also be the abstraction itself. In Platonism, the form of chairs, is the abstraction of the chair. The form, which is what we would index as a type 1 concept, is referencing a material object. The form is seen as the most perfect version that the physical manifestation is based on.

Star seeds are the same way, they are the abstraction of the physical manifestation (also keep in mind that star seeds also give form to non-physical and abstract manifestations as well). And just like Platonism, as they are inside the Galaxy Cauldron, the star seeds are in their complete/perfect form. (these words are interchangeable in Japanese).

furthermore, history doesn't necessarily mean it is concept as well

As henshin thoroughly explained above, it's not about just erasure from history, but destruction of the fundamental aspect, erases its influence across reality, which would include history. (the main requirement for type 1 concept)

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Hard disagree with Information Manipulation

The scans used can be interpreted both ways whether it is conceptual or not

Just asking, why do you think it can be "interpreted both ways whether it is conceptual or not"?

How else would you interpret Galaxia taking a Guardian's Star Seed, claiming that all she needs is their Sailor Crystal, and then proceeding to make them Evil and subservient to her, and reconstructing their body and adding new Galactica abilities? Also note that Galaxia was capable of suppressing the regenerative powers of Sailor Guardians just by having their Star Seed as well.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Just asking, why do you think it can be "interpreted both ways whether it is conceptual or not"?

How else would you interpret Galaxia taking a Guardian's Star Seed, claiming that all she needs is their Sailor Crystal, and then proceeding to make them Evil and subservient to her, and reconstructing their body and adding new Galactica abilities? Also note that Galaxia was capable of suppressing the regenerative powers of Sailor Guardians just by having their Star Seed as well.

because one does not necessarily need to manipulate concepts to achieve those.
vague powers without any indication of whether they are conceptual, Information, or just prime energy (prime matter) would be rated as reality warping.

this is a common misconception that just because an ability did something a concepts and information can do means they are that.
After all, you don't need those concepts information and such existing to bend reality.
this is the reason why the Anti-realist concept as a theory exists which claims plato's conception of what a form or idea is may not be true and the same way Aristotle claims otherwise but claims that conception may exist in my own words "like a process" and as it is observed and understood not as something that exist purely as an abstraction

It actually references both, as seen with both Sailor Venus and Sailor Moon:

nothing here suggests that clearly

I also want to refute this misconception. Concepts do not have to reference an abstraction, they can also be the abstraction itself. In Platonism, the form of chairs, is the abstraction of the chair. The form, which is what we would index as a type 1 concept, is referencing a material object. The form is seen as the most perfect version that the physical manifestation is based on.

They do. that's how we separate and differentiate fundamental information, Causality based reality, Reality warping, and Conceptual manipulation.

Because what I mentioned above can basically achieve what other abilities can do but their difference is fundamentally about the mechanics and how they are described and interpreted and proven in said fiction

Star seeds are the same way, they are the abstraction of the physical manifestation (also keep in mind that star seeds also give form to non-physical and abstract manifestations as well). And just like Platonism, as they are inside the Galaxy Cauldron, the star seeds are in their complete/perfect form. (these words are interchangeable in Japanese).

yes but platos idea can also be interpreted differently by other theories which may not require these complete or perfect form
that's why being discreet and direct is necessary to grant these abilities.
They can give it another name like pathos but if pathos is something described in verbatim an idea and abstract rather than

and none of your scans suggest it because the Cauldron completely breaks down forms into pure energy and is reborn as a new entity or star seed. these do not prove abstraction or idea at all

As henshin thoroughly explained above, it's not about just erasure from history, but destruction of the fundamental aspect, erases its influence across reality, which would include history. (the main requirement for type 1 concept)

Yes and fundamental aspects can also mean mind, soul, history, and physical existence. not necessarily concepts or information about you. and you have to prove that mind and soul are something akin to Idea and abstraction rather than just soul as it is defined as one's identity or ego. the Cauldron explanation did not give full detail as to what these fundamental aspects are but shows how it can basically affects ones existence

my conclusion regarding conceptual manipulation is it has the prerequisite supporting statement but not the main argument for it
I think a possibly rating may be possible for concept hax as I said earlier. it can be argued by both sides but it has prerequisites that also somehow can be used to argue for the other side.
Though I believe it is only Concept Type 2 as possibly as it lines up more with Aristotelian idea of concept

As for information manipulation I really cannot agree to it honestly

 

[Hypertornado099]

The fact that Existence Erasure in the present wasn't enough to erase his daughter (in the future) but his star seed being erased did the job, indicates that affecting Star Seeds have far more disastrous consequences than simply erasing/killing beings. Which ties into how Star Seeds are fundamental objects in Sailor Moon, because if you erase the Star Seed of something, everything that depends on that thing (Mamoru) is immediately affected (Chibiusa perma dying).

Still not evidence of it being conceptual

How else would you interpret Galaxia taking a Guardian's Star Seed, claiming that all she needs is their Sailor Crystal, and then proceeding to make them Evil and subservient to her, and reconstructing their body and adding new Galactica abilities? Also note that Galaxia was capable of suppressing the regenerative powers of Sailor Guardians just by having their Star Seed as well.

Mind control, power modification and nullification

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

nothing here suggests that clearly

Your statement, " incarnation references mostly planets rather than abstract God from Myths." is directly proved false by the scans.

They do. that's how we separate and differentiate fundamental information, Causality based reality, Reality warping, and Conceptual manipulation.

Look at the conceptual Manipulation page.

This is the first image:



It clearly shows the form of a table giving rise to physical tables. Concepts can be the abstraction themselves. They do not need to only represent an abstraction.

and none of your scans suggest it because the Cauldron completely breaks down forms into pure energy and is reborn as a new entity or star seed. these do not prove abstraction or idea at all

Are possibilities and potential abstract or concrete?

Yes and fundamental aspects can also mean mind, soul, history, and physical existence. not necessarily concepts or information about you. and you have to prove that mind and soul are something akin to Idea and abstraction rather than just soul as it is defined as one's identity or ego. the Cauldron explanation did not give full detail as to what these fundamental aspects are but shows how it can basically affects ones existence

I don't understand your statement, because when I said destruction of the fundamental aspect, I mean star seed. Star seeds are the fundamental aspect of Sailor Moon. Destroying Mamoru's star seed caused him to be erased from reality and everything dependent on him. The destruction of his mind, body, and soul did not have the same affect.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Still not evidence of it being conceptual

This is the same non argument that doesn't acknowledge the point.

Mind control, power modification and nullification

She is not mind controlling them she literally remade them from scratch. This is a useless overcomplication of what she does.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

because one does not necessarily need to manipulate concepts to achieve those.
vague powers without any indication of whether they are conceptual, Information, or just prime energy (prime matter) would be rated as reality warping.

this is a common misconception that just because an ability did something a concepts and information can do means they are that.
After all, you don't need those concepts information and such existing to bend reality.
this is the reason why the Anti-realist concept as a theory exists which claims plato's conception of what a form or idea is may not be true and the same way Aristotle claims otherwise but claims that conception may exist in my own words "like a process" and as it is observed and understood not as something that exist purely as an abstraction

I really don't understand your contention here because the Star Seed/Sailor Crystal is the thing being argued here to be equivalent to a Type 1 Concept. If Galaxia can manipulate that to a high degree than she gets conceptual/info hax, it's not that complicated.

"Reality Warping" is an infamously vague term because having virtually any superpower can be considered "warping reality". I do not think indexing this as "reality warping" would make much sense or be true to what was actually done.

 

[Hypertornado099]

This is the same non argument that doesn't acknowledge the point.

Your points don't even prove conceptual manipulation so why does that matter?

She is not mind controlling them she literally remade them from scratch. This is a useless overcomplication of what she does.

How is that conceptual manipulation?

"Reality Warping" is an infamously vague term because having virtually any superpower can be considered "warping reality". I do not think indexing this as "reality warping" would make much sense or be true to what was actually done.

That is true, but by your logic almost nothing would count as reality warping on this site

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Your points don't even prove conceptual manipulation so why does that matter?

How is that conceptual manipulation?

Recreating someone from the metaphysical fundamental aspect which gives everything in reality their form is called what?

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Your points don't even prove conceptual manipulation so why does that matter?

You did not read the OP

How is that conceptual manipulation?

You did not read the OP

That is true, but by your logic almost nothing would count as reality warping on this site

I did not say that, I said "Reality Warping" is such a general term that a lot of abilities would by default be "warping reality". For example, somebody manipulating Time is warping reality, somebody manipulating energy is "warping reality" etc etc

Seriously dude, I don't want to have to repeat myself here.

A common refute to this is that "Star Seeds just bypass Acausality then"... Except Star Seeds are literally stated to contain everything about the entity it represents. If you erase that than you erase everything pertaining to that individual or entity. This has nothing to do with Star Seeds simply having a special power to negate Acausality, it's fundamental.

Erasing his Star Seed erased his influence across all of space and time, while erasing his mind, body and soul had no effect. The Star Seeds do not have some arbitrary power to negate Acausality, it's the fact that they are more fundamental than mind, body and soul. Obviously if you erase something more fundamental than those three than you cause far more severe consequences.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Recreating someone from the metaphysical fundamental aspect which gives everything in reality their form is called what?

Reality warping. A "metaphysical fundamental aspect" is not always the same as a concept lol

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Reality warping. A "metaphysical fundamental aspect" is not always the same as a concept lol

Yeah you're clearly a troll, lmfao

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

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[Agnaa]

Reality warping. A "metaphysical fundamental aspect" is not always the same as a concept lol

Technically yeah. ig it could also be their soul, mind, information, "history", or "place in the narrative". Really it does feel like it deserves something more specific than Reality Warping, but I'm not sure what should be done for something this vague.

My best guess would be, take any other implications/restrictions on what that fundamental aspect could be, and give an ability in line with that. Henshin/Unanimous may have already evidenced that, so if you had to pick from those options, which do you think are hinted at or ruled out?

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Bump.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

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[Iamunanimousinthat]

Technically yeah. ig it could also be their soul, mind, information, "history", or "place in the narrative". Really it does feel like it deserves something more specific than Reality Warping, but I'm not sure what should be done for something this vague.

I was waiting for tornado to respond but since they haven't, I will say that the series has shown that souls are distinct from crystals. (And I would also say mind too since in the example below, since both Chibi-usa's and Hotaru's souls have ability of conscious thought):



Chibi-Usa's soul and silver crystal (her sailor crystal/star seed) are devoured by Mistress 9, and Hotaru as a pure soul, shields her and keeps her safe. This shows that the soul is separate from the star seed.



Also, while in her soul form, Hotaru speaks about her "bigger self", that's within her self. Something more foundational to her being than her soul. This bigger self of course is Sailor Saturn who will be awakened.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Also, while in her soul form, Hotaru speaks about her "bigger self", that's within her self. Something more foundational to her being than her soul. This bigger self of course is Sailor Saturn who will be awakened.

Should be noted that Sailor Saturn awakens after Hotaru's Soul and Body truly diminish. So her "bigger self" is not even close to being reliant on her Soul, body and mind. That "bigger self" is the Saturn Spirit/Sailor Crystal.

 

[Agnaa]

Pinging as per request

@DarkDragonMedeus @Celestial_Pegasus @Theglassman12 @Planck69

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Pinging as per request

@DarkDragonMedeus @Celestial_Pegasus @Theglassman12 @Planck69

Since Mods have been pinged to this thread, I decided to make a brief Summary since @Iamunanimousinthat is unavailable right now and they can use a Summary of the CRT and the discussion so far. Before reading this I advise reading the brief introduction on the OP regarding some disclaimers on Inverse terminology.

Summary Of Arguments

• Star Seeds are fundamental, metaphysical entities that encompass all aspects of the entity it represents (Ex: Everything about a Sailor Guardian, from their powers to the Planet, Mind, Soul, Body and the Ideals/Abstractions they are the incarnation of are included) This is explained on the OP. This would include things like: Love, Beauty, Space-Time, Death, Destruction etc. Sailor Guardians are Reincarnations of the Deities that embody/created these concepts, so it's not just a baseless announcement of their beliefs.
  
  
• Star Seeds encompass all sizes, forms/shapes and names (see OP for scan) and the Perfect Forms of everything in the Verse are located inside the Galaxy Cauldron, which created all Star Seeds. The Kanji used for "Perfect Form" when referring to "Form" has the same definition as the one used for the one describing Star Seeds encompassing all sizes, names and forms --> So all things in Sailor Moon have Perfect Star Forms.
  
  
• Beings that are formless, shapeless, have no "size", are Nonexistent and are Darkness also have Star Seeds pertaining to them. This means Star Seeds also encompass all things that lack form, shape, size etc. It should also be noted that Star Seeds encompass everything in a sort of dualistic fashion.
  
  
• Star Seeds fit the bill for all the rest of the Type 1 Concept Manipulation requirements, such as being Independent. (see OP)
  
  
• When you manipulate a Star Seed, you can change or add things to the entity it represents, all you need is their Star Seed. This is pretty clear-cut an example of Information Manipulation Type 2 (see OP for more details)

There is some contention regarding one argument for Star Seeds being Independent Concepts that involves Mamoru's Star Seed erasure which I explained here:

Just to clarify for future discussion: People often say that the point about Mamoru's star seed being erased affecting his daughter is merely related to Acausality and nothing Conceptual. However, this is ignoring how in the same Arc, Mamoru had already been erased from existence in the Present. This is what happens to him a couple panels into the first chapter.

The fact that Existence Erasure in the present wasn't enough to erase his daughter (in the future) but his star seed being erased did the job, indicates that affecting Star Seeds have far more disastrous consequences than simply erasing/killing beings. Which ties into how Star Seeds are fundamental objects in Sailor Moon, because if you erase the Star Seed of something, everything that depends on that thing (Mamoru) is immediately affected (Chibiusa perma dying).

Also, SM characters already have Acausality. Mamoru in previous arcs had already interacted with and even channeled power from his Future Self, King Endymion. King Endymion himself was unaffected by Mamoru's existence being erased in the present and only got erased after Mamoru's star seed got erased, which in turn erased Chibiusa.

A common refute to this is that "Star Seeds just bypass Acausality then"... Except Star Seeds are literally stated to contain everything about the entity it represents. If you erase that than you erase everything pertaining to that individual or entity. This has nothing to do with Star Seeds simply having a special power to negate Acausality, it's because it's fundamental.

Note: This doesn't debunk the other argument that indicates that Star Seeds are Independent Concepts, which can be found in the OP yet again.

End (Bottom is my opinion)

If you ask me, most of the other arguments against this boil down to "I don't think it's conceptual" with essentially no good reason to believe otherwise. People often posit this as being "vague" while ignoring clear storytelling details and allusions to stuff like Plato's Forms. Just because it doesn't say to your face that it's a concept, doesn't mean it's not a concept. Since Star Seeds are clearly not Souls or some other metaphysical entity, are fundamental and have an all encompassing range of Forms, entities, Names etc they can only really be indexed as Concepts.

That's All.

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah this feels nothing different from what I've seen when I removed it a while ago, still not convinced this is conceptual, let alone type 1 or information manipulation.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Yeah this feels nothing different from what I've seen when I removed it a while ago, still not convinced this is conceptual, let alone type 1 or information manipulation.

Well to be fair your removal thread was just a series of "It's not conceptual" and "it's just acasuality" which is a gross oversimplification of Star Seeds. So no wonder it passed lol

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

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Agnaa, I am curious as to what you think as well.

 

[Agnaa]

I think I don't have time to evaluate threads that aren't about big standards issues.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm no expert on conceptual manipulation, but I do agree with other ability additions beyond it being just reality warping.

 

[Agnaa]

Pinging some other staff who evaluated the previous thread on this @Maverick_Zero_X @LephyrTheRevanchist

Since Mods have been pinged to this thread, I decided to make a brief Summary since @Iamunanimousinthat is unavailable right now and they can use a Summary of the CRT and the discussion so far. Before reading this I advise reading the brief introduction on the OP regarding some disclaimers on Inverse terminology.

Summary Of Arguments

• Star Seeds are fundamental, metaphysical entities that encompass all aspects of the entity it represents (Ex: Everything about a Sailor Guardian, from their powers to the Planet, Mind, Soul, Body and the Ideals/Abstractions they are the incarnation of are included) This is explained on the OP. This would include things like: Love, Beauty, Space-Time, Death, Destruction etc. Sailor Guardians are Reincarnations of the Deities that embody/created these concepts, so it's not just a baseless announcement of their beliefs.
  
  
• Star Seeds encompass all sizes, forms/shapes and names (see OP for scan) and the Perfect Forms of everything in the Verse are located inside the Galaxy Cauldron, which created all Star Seeds. The Kanji used for "Perfect Form" when referring to "Form" has the same definition as the one used for the one describing Star Seeds encompassing all sizes, names and forms --> So all things in Sailor Moon have Perfect Star Forms.
  
  
• Beings that are formless, shapeless, have no "size", are Nonexistent and are Darkness also have Star Seeds pertaining to them. This means Star Seeds also encompass all things that lack form, shape, size etc. It should also be noted that Star Seeds encompass everything in a sort of dualistic fashion.
  
  
• Star Seeds fit the bill for all the rest of the Type 1 Concept Manipulation requirements, such as being Independent. (see OP)
  
  
• When you manipulate a Star Seed, you can change or add things to the entity it represents, all you need is their Star Seed. This is pretty clear-cut an example of Information Manipulation Type 2 (see OP for more details)

There is some contention regarding one argument for Star Seeds being Independent Concepts that involves Mamoru's Star Seed erasure which I explained here:

Note: This doesn't debunk the other argument that indicates that Star Seeds are Independent Concepts, which can be found in the OP yet again.

End (Bottom is my opinion)

If you ask me, most of the other arguments against this boil down to "I don't think it's conceptual" with essentially no good reason to believe otherwise. People often posit this as being "vague" while ignoring clear storytelling details and allusions to stuff like Plato's Forms. Just because it doesn't say to your face that it's a concept, doesn't mean it's not a concept. Since Star Seeds are clearly not Souls or some other metaphysical entity, are fundamental and have an all encompassing range of Forms, entities, Names etc they can only really be indexed as Concepts.

That's All.