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interesting...
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Dragon Ball Daima Spoiler Discussion Thread
- Thread starter StarShooter80
- Start date
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interesting...
Hasty12345
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Why does he know so much
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No Dragon Ball super
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Another episode where the heroes struggle against fodder. Said fodder is somehow stronger than Dabura. A ship plane beat Vegeta's ass so hard he cried for Goku to help him.
TegamiBachi25
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lmao
Another episode where the heroes struggle against fodder. Said fodder is somehow stronger than Dabura. A ship plane beat Vegeta's ass so hard he cried for Goku to help him.
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They got up right after this btwlmao
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This is equivalent to Goku and Vegeta in RoF going back to Namek Saga and needing back-up against the Ginyu Force.
Another episode where the heroes struggle against fodder. Said fodder is somehow stronger than Dabura. A ship plane beat Vegeta's ass so hard he cried for Goku to help him.
It's the main thing I dislike about Daima. Not even on a powerscaling level, just in terms of how it's weird and annoying on a level of common sense. Goku and Vegeta, even as kids, are at least stronger than Dabura. And even if they've been nerfed, this is still post-Buu Saga. Even excluding Z and just focusing on Daima in itself, Goku and Vegeta have both defeated Tamagami's, who are meant to possess virtually unparalleled power within the Demon Realm, untouchable even to the likes of Supreme Demon King's, yet people who defeat them almost lose to actual random grunt soldiers. Does this mean a random Gendarmerie soldier from the Demon Realm would literally kill Namek Saga Frieza? On so many levels it just feels wrong.
Daima essentially throws the series' scaling and any aspect of consistency in power levels into the garbage and just has their power levels fluctuate depending on what the plot wants. And unfortunately, in Daima, most of the opponents are random nameless fodder, and the plot WILL make the gang struggle against them for dramatic tension.
And also, none of this explains why Goku and Vegeta didn't at least go Super Saiyan in a supposed "life or death" battle where they got caught and were injured multiple times. For Vegeta I could see it being out of ego, but Goku knows when to get serious and he only did it AFTER being saved by more literal fodder.
It sucks because all of these guys look like Mercenary Tao victims.
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Scaling wise? No, not really.
Basically all that happened was Goku and co. went up against the Gendarmerie army, kept getting hurt and almost losing, and had to get saved by the Demon King of the 3rd realm alongside some random fodder, because the Gendarmerie had tanks that fired pools of electricity at the ground in a small circle (Goku, Vegeta, and Piccolo forgot they can fly I think so they ran at human level speeds on foot).
The B plot was about the annoying pilot guy having the Evil Third Eye which Gomah wants, then we got a flashback where Dabura plotted to overthrow his father. So he had the Evil Third Eye get stolen, which got lost in the Third Demon Realm, and then Dabura took over by overpowering Abura or something.
And that's about it.
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Namekians die from fatal injuries and can't regenerate vital organs, just a bit nerfed
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On the flip side, high 4C to 4B tanks is deeply funny so I'm not gonna ***** about it
Those tanks solo so many verses now
Those tanks solo so many verses now
Dust_Collector
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Never, NEVER, diss the GOAT Hybis ever again
Spinoirr
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That guy Is attracted to kid Bulma
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daima as a whole so far has been extremely disappointing
TegamiBachi25
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Really? I'm guessing that only applies to Canon DBZ and not Toei then
Those tanks now solo SSJ3 Buu Saga Goku
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This is so weird because like on one end, yeah. I mean, Frieza and Vegeta killed a bunch of Namekians without killing them whole. On the other end, noooo—because Cell and Buu Saga say that they can regenerate whole bodies so long as their head is around, so…?
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If I understood correctly, the problem is mostly the electrical effect, so I wouldn't say that it breaks the scale too much,
Besides the first Katagami needed a Super Saiyan Goku, the second one came by needing Vegeta SSJ 3 (although thanks to Neva) and the last one was defeated by Majin Doo...
Add to that the problem is the weapons, since all their wielders are oneshotted
They haven't broken the scale yet, although it does seem strange
plus: Vegeta never healed from his fight, right? He was already half tired
Besides the first Katagami needed a Super Saiyan Goku, the second one came by needing Vegeta SSJ 3 (although thanks to Neva) and the last one was defeated by Majin Doo...
Add to that the problem is the weapons, since all their wielders are oneshotted
They haven't broken the scale yet, although it does seem strange
plus: Vegeta never healed from his fight, right? He was already half tired
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Piccolo hasn't always been like that tbf
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I don’t really think any of this acting is a problem nor do I actually believe base goku is a match for debura. I could definitely believe it would take SS2 forms to beat him in there current state and neba would have to intervine id the Demon king himself fought one of his creations. If the 3 could handel fine on there own why would he need to stay behind after all?
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I saw some of your comments and would like to delve into them because I don’t find them correct at all.
The correct way to interpret this is to compare both when neither knew anything about SSJ3, considering the time it took them to achieve or not achieve SSJ3. Remember that Goku didn’t know anything about SSJ3 either, so I think it’s unfair to measure Goku’s time this way but view Vegeta’s from a different perspective. Why, then, aren’t Vegeta’s seven years, during which he failed to achieve SSJ3, taken into account?
In a span of seven years, Goku achieved SSJ2 and SSJ3, while Vegeta only reached SSJ2. So, I don’t think it makes any sense to say that Vegeta achieves things faster than Goku. Moreover, I find it a bit absurd, considering that Goku achieves things first, even within similar timeframes for achieving such transformations. But for some reason, you say that Vegeta achieves them faster, which is contradictory.
Why is Vegeta’s timeframe considered until after Goku achieves them? That doesn’t make sense to me either. And how would it even make sense to count Vegeta’s timeframe from when he learns about a transformation or perfecting a form, already knowing how to do it after having a reference in Goku, with Goku, who doesn’t yet know about that form, just to say Vegeta achieves them faster?
"Six months for Vegeta to achieve SSJ3" haha.
Lastly, you claim that Vegeta constantly masters things faster than Goku. Which ones, exactly?
I hope you’re not going to bring up Vegeta’s training on Yardrat, considering they’re very different versions of Goku and Vegeta—one having already trained with an Angel and achieved all those forms.
It has always been shown in the narrative that Goku has a superior learning ability compared to Vegeta.
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Except Vegeta literally knows about SSJ3, why in the hell would you ever compare it as if he doesn't? He literally does.
Nobody is comparing that specific case. Just that Vegeta can, and has, learned things quicker than Goku before. If you want to compare that specific case, it wouldn't matter because Goku throws himself under the bus and said it took him years to master it after learning it was a thing.
Because why would it be? Goku's shouldn't even be counted either, he only managed to figure out it was a thing because of the way the after life worked in the first place. Once people actually knew it was a thing, it didn't take them long to copy it. We see it with Gotenks who pulls it out his ass in 2 weeks, and we see it with Vegeta as per the very point.
And Goku had the benefit of a body and the other world mechanics enabling him to push beyond in a way that wouldn't be feasible on earth.
It does because it's literally happened. Moro Arc is an example, Vegeta learned the funny alien stuff at a far quicker rate compared to Goku explicitly.
Goku learning SSJ3 first because he was dead, doesn't detract from Vegeta, or hell even Gotenks, learning it as soon as they know it's a thing with a bit of training.
Because simply knowing it exists, doesn't mean you can master it.
Goku himself literally, unironically, says it took him years in the manga to master SSJ3. Not learn it mind you, just master it to the point he had, which is why he's astounded Gotenks already reached that point. The fact Vegeta also got to said point, in a much shorter time just corroborates that.
You're ignoring the actual details in what this involves.
Yep, it took Goku literal years to actually master it, not find it was a thing, which he only did because of being dead in the first place. Vegeta took less time to "master it". Vegeta has also shown the ability, elsewhere, to learn things quicker, like, again, Moro arc. Not sure why you're acting like this is the only time but sure go on.
Sucks, I'll bring up whatever I want given your reasoning here isn't stated at all.
They're not "vastly different", they didn't get some sort of "learn better" buff.
This was something Vegeta literally had no experience with, they even give him slack for it. He learned it quicker.
Arguing that training in completely other things enabled him to somehow pick up this completely different thing ain't gonna fly.
"Always", bar the times the manga goes out of its way to show Vegeta doing stuff quicker.
Now, did you really quote like a month old post just to yap?
Goku learned of SSJ3 due to being dead, the conditions enabled him to find out it was a thing in the first place.
Vegeta wasn't dead, of course he wouldn't have found it himself. In spite of this, it still took Goku years by his own admission to actually master it. Vegeta took less time, so did Gotenks which astounded Goku, showing it isn't just a matter of "knowing" it's a thing, but actually doing so is complex. This makes the entire premise of your point faulty in how Goku learned it was a thing when nobody else did. Which was never the point anyway, given we're talking about time to master it, not figure out it's a thing to begin with.
Vegeta learned spirit stuff and IT at a explicitly noted quicker time compared to Goku. This isn't attributed to unrelated training.
Gets to a further point than Goku, in less time. Note, the only thing it's attributed to, is that fact he's "cut from a different cloth". That's it.
Unless you have actual canonical non-conjecture, Vegeta progressed quicker and further than Goku in something without having any prior training in it (To the point they call him out on how skewed his actual chi is and how imbalanced it is), don't waste my time.
We could bring up other times, but that's beside the point. But regardless. Vegeta learning SSJ3 in less time, is fine and dandy and not at all a contradiction given it isn't unprecedented, and Vegeta, can, and has, progressed at stuff quicker than Goku, this is a fact. Goku has found things quicker, but it isn't a universal thing.
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Vegeta is like straight up more talented than Goku. Goku just typically has superior training and a more productive healthy mindset when it comes to growth, which is why he is almost always ahead.
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Well yes, it is literally said that Vegeta has superior genetics because he is a high-class warrior.
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Eh
Vegeta's entire character in the Saiyan and Frieza saga is that he is stronger than Goku because he is a high-class warrior and that Goku only surpassed him with training.
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Cell, if I'm not wrong, says that he improved the Regeneration of piccolo
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No entendiste el punto aquí. Lo que quiero decir es que ambos tienen contextos diferentes y no se pueden comparar de la misma manera porque como tú mismo dices, Vegeta literalmente sabía sobre SSJ3 mientras que Goku no. Entonces, comparar a alguien que logra algo sin ningún conocimiento con alguien que ya tiene el conocimiento y se enfoca en ello no es lo mismo.
Mencionaste el caso de SSJ3 para discutir esta supuesta capacidad de aprendizaje más rápida de Vegeta en comparación con Goku.
Seamos claros: es bien sabido que los beneficios del más allá no son necesarios para alcanzar el SSJ3. El problema con lo que dices es que parece ignorar un contexto clave: descubrir algo no es lo mismo que simplemente aprenderlo una vez que ya sabes que existe. Vegeta no logró el SSJ3 por sí solo, a pesar de que entrenó durante años, incluso con la motivación de superar a Goku. Si aprender las cosas más rápido fuera su ventaja, habría podido descubrirlo por sí solo, pero no lo hizo hasta que Goku le allanó el camino.
Dices, “una vez que se supo que existía, rápidamente lo consiguieron”, pero esto solo refuerza la idea de que la verdadera dificultad radica en el descubrimiento inicial. Goku no tuvo el beneficio de saber sobre SSJ3 de antemano, por lo que su tiempo no se puede comparar directamente con el de Vegeta. No se puede medir cuánto tiempo le habría llevado a Goku si ya hubiera sabido que SSJ3 existía, porque él fue quien lo descubrió.
Además, si Vegeta realmente aprendía más rápido, ¿por qué necesitaba que Goku lo aprendiera antes de siquiera intentarlo? Lo mismo se aplica a Gotenks, ya que su caso tampoco es comparable: él tuvo orientación y conocimiento previo gracias a Goku.
Comparar esto es como medir quién domina más rápido un teorema: el que lo formula por primera vez o el que simplemente lo estudia después. La lógica de medir el tiempo sólo después de saber algo omite todo el proceso de descubrimiento, que es mucho más complejo.
¿Cómo es que no es factible en la Tierra? ¿Y qué pasa con Gotenks y Vegeta entonces? Esa excusa no se sostiene porque, como dije, está demostrado que esos beneficios no son necesarios. Tú mismo dijiste que lo lograron una vez que supieron que existía.
Aun así, si ese fuera el caso, ¿cuánto tiempo ahorrarían realmente esos beneficios en comparación? ¿Cuánto deberíamos restarle al desconocimiento de Goku sobre esa fase para calcular el tiempo que ambos tardaron en aprender SSJ3? Es imposible saberlo.
Lo único que sabemos es que Goku descubre técnicas y transformaciones antes que Vegeta, en plazos temporales similares y sin saber nada de antemano. Vegeta solo aprende o domina cosas cuando ya tiene conocimientos y referencias previas.
Y no sé por qué sigues apoyándote en el mismo ejemplo para decir que Vegeta aprende más rápido, y lo haces como si hubiera muchos más ejemplos, que debería ser así según lo que dices. Sigues haciendo hincapié en que Goku lo hizo porque estaba muerto, como si hubiera un escenario en el que no lo hubiera podido hacer estando vivo. Lo mismo que dicen algunos fans de Vegeta sobre el Dios SSJ. Eso pasó por sus circunstancias, pero no puedes afirmar que no hubiera podido hacerlo si sus circunstancias hubieran sido diferentes. Lo que sí se puede asegurar es que Vegeta no pudo lograrlo estando vivo y sin saberlo de Goku para copiarlo, jaja.
¿Quién le está quitando el mérito a Vegeta? Lo que dices no coincide con las palabras que estás citando. Decir que Goku logra las cosas primero no es lo mismo que decir que los demás no merecen el crédito. Simplemente es afirmar un hecho.
Por otro lado, estás restando méritos a los logros de Goku al decir que Vegeta logra las cosas primero, comparándolo con un Goku que es el que las descubre primero, mientras que otros simplemente se aferran a eso y lo copian. Uno tiene un nivel de dificultad mucho mayor para ser medido en la misma escala.
Está bien, y nadie está diciendo lo contrario. Antes, me dijiste que lo copian una vez que saben que existe, por lo que eso enfatiza la diferencia entre saber y no saber. Y eso todavía no responde la pregunta; más bien confirma el punto. Dado que saber no significa dominarlo, no debería contarse después de que Goku logre sus formas, sino antes, porque saber no es importante y no hace ninguna diferencia, ¿verdad?
Y estoy hablando de aprender la forma, no de quién la domina (tal como tú entiendes la maestría). Tú también lo mencionaste. La pregunta aquí es quién aprende las cosas primero, así que ¿por qué mencionar todo eso sobre dominar la forma? ¿O quieres hablar de quién la domina más rápido?
What does Vegeta confirm? We haven't seen Vegeta's mastery of the form enough to even discuss it. In any case, that would be a different discussion, and not about who learned it first, which is not the same thing, as you yourself point out.
You can mention whatever you want, I just said I hoped you wouldn't. How come he has no experience with it? You talk like it's a completely different power system. He's being taught things about spirit and how to control it, the powers in DB are interconnected(those kind of powers), they're the basics. How come it's not useful? According to the concept of ki, both things are intrinsically related; for the Yardrats, it's the equivalent of ki but more advanced.
Of course, Vegeta's previous training helped him a lot and gave him a ton of knowledge about it. There's no way to deny it. All the time, we see how some teachings are useful for what they're learning even much later on, and here we're talking about something basic, like controlling power. Not that I'm saying that the knowledge of the Garlic Ho gave him experience in achieving the Ultra Ego, haha.
And what are those times? The times when Vegeta copied what Goku discovered?Or are you referring to the moments when Goku surpassed him?
And what does it matter if it's a post from a month ago or if i quoted just for that? You keep saying the same thing before and after and talking the same thing. Well, Goku finding out about SSJ3 because he was dead is your assumption, which surprises me from someone who said something like: knowing something doesn't mean you can master it. It's the same logic as saying: just because you have the conditions or the means doesn't mean you can learn about something, haha.
And I don't understand, it is known that SSJ3 can be obtained without being in the same circumstances as Goku, which clarifies that the means and circumstances do not prevent someone from knowing about SSJ3 as you say. Where do circumstances block the epistemic leap?
Knowing and making it real? But what are you talking about if Goku had to make it real to know it because he was the one who discovered it? And you yourself talk about mastering it in a different sense, learning to do something is making it real. Goku learned to do it before knowing how others did it. And that's the complex part, making something real that you don't know.
The question wasn't who got things faster. I see you're referring to mastery, as I suspected earlier, but I thought you were referring to the concept of getting it first, since it seems to me that the concept of mastery, as you use it, i.e. perfecting, comes after getting something.
Spiritual stuff, as you mention, refers to the advanced equivalent of ki, which is still part of the same energy system. Saying "not related" is meaningless because all ki training, whether basic or advanced, contributes to handling techniques and transformations. Vegeta developed a more refined spirit, but that doesn't necessarily mean he learned forms or techniques faster. In fact, Pybla says that Vegeta is a genius of effort.
Furthermore, even if we accept his argument and leave aside the direct relationship between spiritual training and advanced techniques, prior experience in handling complex powers is still a crucial advantage. Someone who has already trained with Whis and learned how to handle divine ki has more elaborate knowledge and skills that put them in a better position compared to someone who has never handled something similar.
This doesn't mean that the topics are the same, but prior experience speeds up learning. It's like putting two people to learn something new: one who only has basic knowledge and another who has worked with much more complex concepts. Even if the topic is different, the person with more prior experience will have an easier time adapting and learning quickly because they already have a more advanced frame of reference.
You can’t ignore that Vegeta’s training and experience with Whis and handling divine ki put him in a more advantageous position to learn new techniques or forms. Saying it doesn’t influence anything simply has no basis and is ignoring what experience means.
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In the freezer saga??? Goku surpassed him by training you say, and Vegeta scratches his head? Haha we see that he trains more than Goku sometimes. Both in the same circumstances, Goku ends up taking advantage of him. Also, there I think there is more talk about estatus. And it is constantly mentioned that Goku is a prodigy.
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That doesn't make sense, superior training in what sense and talent in what sense? Talent is the ability to learn, Goku's learning ability is superior and that is why his training is more productive and makes him grow more. Besides, why when they both train under the same regime, Goku still gain an advantage? Where did that supposed "much more talent" go?
In fact, I've been looking for the Japanese translation of the episode where Goku and Vegeta fight in the buu saga. In manga 459, Vegeta says that Goku is more gifted while others say that he is stronger. In Spanish in the anime it says that Goku is more talented too. I don't know what it's said in english.
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That's almost nothing to do with genetics, the upper class only defines the fighting power you are born with but it does not define your talent or your potential. Because talent is the ability to learn that has nothing to do with the fighting power you are born with and the potential, the margin of development that you have, which is not defined by the classification given by the Saiyans, because potential is based on a lot of different factors, even where you grow up counts
Goku has always been shown as a character with a superior learning capacity, which is why he is even shown learning things by seeing them once. Learning things that others find difficult or discovering ways to improve that no one had thought of.
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Who's gonna tell lil bro where he is.
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Talent is innate ability first and foremost. And even then this splitting hair about it actually being learning ability still falls flat as Vegeta has picked up stuff quicker than Goku has.
So Goku doesn't have superior innate power, nor does he have superior learning ability/potential.
I'm not saying Goku isn't a prodigy, but everyone in the series is tbh.
I don't care what Vegeta says when he is being humble, I care about what the series itself shows us, and it's shows us Goku's advantage is his ability to learn from many sources and use those teachings the best he can. His willingness to learn and relax is what sets him apart. Vegeta's stubbornness and pride holds him back.
It's not really super up for debate.
Talent is clearly innate ability first and foremost.
Superior training means Goku has trained under more masters and has learned several different styles of said training.
These being confusing is silly.
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Demon Realm is confirmed to be Universe Size.
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ドラゴンボール完全版(日文原版34卷全) - DragonBall 鸟山明 - 龙珠完全版漫画|七龙珠完全版漫画|七龙珠日文完全版漫画
ドラゴンボール完全版(日文原版34卷全)七龙珠完全版漫画，七龙珠日文完全版。
comic.dragonballcn.com
link to the entire Dragon Ball manga in raw Japanese above. Just in case people want to see the raw scans for feats or statements or whatever
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iirc, the translations of the raw japanese text got "realm" and not "universe"Demon Realm is confirmed to be Universe Size.
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What method did you use? I got both realm and universe so I think I need to put down my translator site because it is not being helpful
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iirc it was translated by Herms, i guess it is one of those kanji that can mean either
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We finna sneak into his house and beat the translations out of him
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