Lucifer Downgrade cw

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Lucifer and co are currently scaling to

Attack Potency: At least Mountain level+, likely at least Multi-Continent level, likely higher (As an Archangel, he should be superior to angels like Manny, demons like Neron, Mallus and Sabbac, and wizards like Constantine.)

But I will show how that's not true. As there is no reason for Lucifer to scale massively above any of those. First there is no justification shown in any profile for why they should be above any of them.

Angels
There is no actual justification to scale him above other angels, them being archangels means little even more on Earth. Actually considering Lucifer is a fallen angel we know that fallen angels should be weaker than other angels since Imogen was easily killed by Manny. Also either because of his subconsious, because he is a fallen angel or whatever, his power's on earth are very clearly limited. It was also agreed with this thread that Manny's weather feat should not scale.
Uriel who is not an archangel can beat Lucifer too, he was inicially losing but after starting to predict Lucifer's patterns he beat him completely.

Demons
Again we have no reason to scale Lucifer above demons and even less for them to scale while on Earth.
I will start to say that in Lucifer series is specifically stated that demons cannot became rulers of hell, simply because the ruler needs to be an angel, it's a huge plot for season 4 that's why the demons even tried to kidnap Charlie to rule over hell, so it doesn't really matter if Lucifer is weaker or not, there is also the fact that he controls hell which apparently give him tier 4 power which is above any demon.
Also why would Neron be considered an average demon? Considering what we saw in Lucifer with Maze and all her brothers and sisters it seems the average demon should be at best as strong as Maze herself, Lilith is stated to have had millions of kids some of which we saw in the Lucifer series as being barely stronger than a human during the entirety of season 4 and some at Maze's wedding
And more importantly Maze can fight and hurt archangels/angels Maze also fights Michael in episode 5x2 beating him but I can't find a youtube video, and it's implied to have killed angels before (I couldn't find the scene but it's episode 3x13 when Lucifer asks Maze on ways to kill Cain, she talks about her fight's with celestial beings) which would contradict demons bellow archangels and angels, Maze herself can be hurt by normal humans although she clearly outskill's them since she trainned in hell at least since before Abel was killed, the same way angels outskill Maze yet she is more than capable of making them bleed with her own hands and not just her hell blades. Given that Maze can hurt them, they cannot be massively stronger than she is.

Wizards
Again no justification in the other thread he says that he want to scale based on the fact Lucifer can go to hell while Constantine can't, but that's clearly hax not power scalable. Actually him having a card to go to Hell in any circumstance doesn't really make sense with the plot of Lucifer since he wasn't supposed to be capable of travelling to and from Hell without his wings or his special coin.

The explosion
The feat that seemingly conviced the staff to scale Lucifer was him being capable of walking out of an explosion. That explosion was a gas explosion which duo to it's earthly natura cannot hurt Lucifer because he has invulnerability to those, it's an hax feat not an actual durability feat. There is also the fact that we have no reason to scale Lucifer's attack potency from a durability feat since those who are capable of hurting him are angels and demons to whom the invulnerability doesn't work.

Conclusion
I's not saying that angels and archangels don't have super strenght, they do but they are shown to be just a bit stronger than humans surely not tier 7 or 6.
Lucifer, Amenadiel, Michael, Azrael, Remiel, Uriel should go back to

At least''' Small Building level''

Agree: DarkDragonMedeus, FinePoint, ByAsura

 

[Pepsimanslover]

Actually considering Lucifer is a fallen angel we know that fallen angels should be weaker than other angels since Imogen was easily killed by Manny.

Those two points don't correlate, Imogen could've always been stronger regardless of what angel he was, you'd have to prove his superiority is through being a normal angel while Manny was fallen.

It doesn't help that the scene you used had Imogen kill Manny by surprise before she can react, it's legit a non viable scaling method to begin with.

Also either because of his subconsious, because he is a fallen angel or whatever, his power's on earth are very clearly limited.

I mean sure, but irrc that was only with when Chloe was around no?

It was also agreed with this thread that Manny's weather feat should not scale.

Yeah true.

Uriel who is not an archangel can beat Lucifer too, he was inicially losing but after starting to predict Lucifer's patterns he beat him completely.

Which isn't exactly demoting, Uriel won because fancy percog, not by strength or speed or power, infact he was losing in said categories, hence this does the opposite of your point.

I agree on the Demon point as nothing seems sketchy there tbh, explosion too, Wizard's weird but I'd rather point to it out to be inconsistency.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Those two points don't correlate, Imogen could've always been stronger regardless of what angel he was, you'd have to prove his superiority is through being a normal angel while Manny was fallen.

Manny wasn't fallen though

It doesn't help that the scene you used had Imogen kill Manny by surprise before she can react, it's legit a non viable scaling method to begin with.

He was right there. Also I don't need to prove Imogen and Manny as relative since the entire point of their scaling is that all angels are somehow relative in all attributes, being capable of killing them that easily contradicts them being relative

I mean sure, but irrc that was only with when Chloe was around no?

I meant his power limited compared to his full power self on heaven or hell.

Yeah true.

Which isn't exactly demoting, Uriel won because fancy percog, not by strength or speed or power, infact he was losing in said categories, hence this does the opposite of your point.

Fancy precog doesn't make him go from 9-A to tier 7 to defeat Lucifer. I'm not saying Lucifer isn't stronger only that they are close enough that they can fight each other. Currently Lucifer is scaled to 7-A possibly high 6-A while Uriel is 9-A.

 

[Pepsimanslover]

Manny wasn't fallen though

My bad, don't have much knowledge on Constantine. Kinda confused them both with each other.

He was right there. Also I don't need to prove Imogen and Manny as relative since the entire point of their scaling is that all angels are somehow relative in all attributes, being capable of killing them that easily contradicts them being relative

Now that I think about it yeah, if they were relatively not that far off Manny shouldn’t be able to literally tear her heart out, even in surprise or not.

I meant his power limited compared to his full power self on heaven or hell.

Alr.

Fancy precog doesn't make him go from 9-A to tier 7 to defeat Lucifer. I'm not saying Lucifer isn't stronger only that they are close enough that they can fight each other. Currently Lucifer is scaled to 7-A possibly high 6-A while Uriel is 9-A.

Nah Uriel is 7-B from what I checked on the wiki, still a big power difference but not really as big as 9-A.

So yeah still an anti-feat problem but not that big of a one.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Nah Uriel is 7-B from what I checked on the wiki, still a big power difference but not really as big as 9-A.

So yeah still an anti-feat problem but not that big of a one.

Everyone is scaling to Neron because of "he is an average demon" with no actual evidence and it's why I have a part in the op about average demon, so I was ignoring the tier 7 but sure I guess it's lower but an antifeat nonetheless

 

[ByArrow]

I don't have time right now. But I will answer all this tomorrow during the day. But I'll tell in advance that I disagree.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I don't have time right now. But I will answer all this tomorrow during the day. But I'll tell in advance that I disagree.

I presumed you would since you made the upgrade to begin with

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

OP seems reasonable from a glance.

 

[ByArrow]

Actually considering Lucifer is a fallen angel we know that fallen angels should be weaker than other angels since Imogen was easily killed by Manny.

Not a fallen angel, but a fallen archangel.

Also either because of his subconsious, because he is a fallen angel or whatever, his power's on earth are very clearly limited.

Lucifer's powers were not limited on Earth, he was just holding back. All angels restrain themselves on earth.

Lucifer: Meaning that ever since you've been here, you've had to restrain yourself. But this is Uriel. You're you.

Lucifer 2x5 "Weaponizer"

Uriel who is not an archangel can beat Lucifer too, he was inicially losing but after starting to predict Lucifer's patterns he beat him completely

This is clearly PIS.

Lucifer said that Amenadiel was a super powerful angel.

Lucifer: So, you will go and convince him that he needs to go back. Or, you know, just punch him in his smug face. Dealer's choice. (chuckling) God, it's nice having a super powerful angel on your side, isn't it? Good luck with that.

Lucifer 2x5 "Weaponizer"

And when Uriel beat Amenadiel (Amenadiel had no powers here.) Lucifer said how is possible. Amenadiel said it happened because he had no powers.

Lucifer: Ah! Right, let me just make myself comfy because I cannot wait to hear how you sent Urinal packing.(chuckles) And please do not skimp on any of the gory details.

Maze: This would never have happened if you'd listened to me earlier.(scoffs)

Lucifer: How is this possible, brother?

Amenadiel: I no longer have my powers.

They are clearly saying that it is not possible for an angel like Uriel to defeat an Archangel like Amenadiel.

And Amanediel was able to defeat two angels without any difficulty by a single attack in the battle for godhood.

Clearly the Archangels are superior to normal angels.

Demons

Again we have no reason to scale Lucifer above demons and even less for them to scale while on Earth.

Are you serious?

I will start to say that in Lucifer series is specifically stated that demons cannot became rulers of hell, simply because the ruler needs to be an angel, it's a huge plot for season 4 that's why the demons even tried to kidnap Charlie to rule over hell,

Irrelevant

Also why would Neron be considered an average demon? Considering what we saw in Lucifer with Maze and all her brothers and sisters it seems the average demon should be at best as strong as Maze herself, Lilith is stated to have had millions of kids some of which we saw in the Lucifer series as being barely stronger than a human during the entirety of season 4 and some at Maze's wedding

Because he is superior to weak demons like Tiberius and weaker than powerful demons like Pazuzu, demon kings, lords and gods.

And given what we've seen throughout the Arrowverse, it seems that he should be an average demon and the angels should be at least comparable to those on his level.

And more importantly Maze can fight and hurt archangels/angels

Maze could fight Lucifer and Michael because Lucifer and Michael allowed her to. We saw that the Archangels could take Maze in one hit without difficulty, and even here they were retreating for her.

She couldn't really hurt Uriel, she could only resist him for a while thanks to her fighting skills. Then Uriel locked her down and broke her arm. Then Maze hit Uriel directly in the head one after the other, but Uriel was unharmed, and he knocked Maze unconscious by one hit. Clearly Uriel is stronger than Maze.

And Amanadiel said that Maze could not beat him. And he easily defeated her. Twice.

Maze also fights Michael in episode 5x2 beating him but I can't find a youtube video,

Maze didn't fight Michael. Maze sneak attacked him from behind and put him in a neck lock. Michael did not fight back or try to break free.

and it's implied to have killed angels before (I couldn't find the scene but it's episode 3x13 when Lucifer asks Maze on ways to kill Cain, she talks about her fight's with celestial beings) which would contradict demons bellow archangels and angels,

She said she fought against the angels, but she didn't say she did it one-to-one. And she has weapons that can kill angels and she's a very skilled warrior, so it doesn't contradict the fact that demons are weaker.

Maze herself can be hurt by normal humans although she clearly outskill's them since she trainned in hell at least since before Abel was killed, the same way angels outskill Maze yet she is more than capable of making them bleed with her own hands and not just her hell blades. Given that Maze can hurt them, they cannot be massively stronger than she is.

This is an outlier/PIS.

Also, Amenadiel said that a demon could not beat a angel. And while the demons could not defeat Amenadiel and Lucifer, they both defeated the demons with a single attack. Clearly the Archangels are superior to the demons.

Also, Michael said a demon army wouldn't stand a chance against them.

Wizards

Again no justification in the other thread he says that he want to scale based on the fact Lucifer can go to hell while Constantine can't, but that's clearly hax not power scalable. Actually him having a card to go to Hell in any circumstance doesn't really make sense with the plot of Lucifer since he wasn't supposed to be capable of travelling to and from Hell without his wings or his special coin.

I literally gave the justification in the OP. Not because Lucifer can go to hell, but because during the crisis, when every magic user in the multiverse was weakened and even a powerful wizard like Constantine had no power to reach Purgatory, Lucifer saw this crisis as insignificant and created a card that could go to Purgatory. This literally means that Lucifer is stronger than Constantine.

Also, John said he couldn't stop Imogen, a fallen angel. And he needed the help of another angel, Manny. Clearly even normal angels are beyond a powerful sorcerer like John.

The explosion
The feat that seemingly conviced the staff to scale Lucifer was him being capable of walking out of an explosion. That explosion was a gas explosion which duo to it's earthly natura cannot hurt Lucifer because he has invulnerability to those, it's an hax feat not an actual durability feat. There is also the fact that we have no reason to scale Lucifer's attack potency from a durability feat since those who are capable of hurting him are angels and demons to whom the invulnerability doesn't work.

This feat convinced the staff because the staff wanted proof that Lucifer was beyond the human level. Instead of this feat, any wall-breaking feat too would have convinced them.

There is also a prophecy that Lucifer, an archangel, can bring about the end of the world. This was the main plot of the fourth season.

Conclusion

I's not saying that angels and archangels don't have super strenght, they do but they are shown to be just a bit stronger than humans surely not tier 7 or 6.
Lucifer, Amenadiel, Michael, Azrael, Remiel, Uriel should go back to

That's exactly what you're saying. You just claimed that humans (And these humans are not even 9-B.) can harm archangels, angels and demons. And by the way, the 9-A ratings come from the feat you claim is unusable. So you are proposing to downgrade them to 9-C. And because of the Scaling, you are proposing to downgrade all the magic users, demons and gods in the Verse and those who scale to them, to that level.
By the way, I am not against downscaling angels from Archangels. But clearly the Archangels are superior to the angels.

 

[Baabasaplar95]

I agree with ByArrow

 

[FinePoint]

Conclusion
I's not saying that angels and archangels don't have super strength, they do but they are shown to be just a bit stronger than humans surely not tier 7 or 6.
Lucifer, Amenadiel, Michael, Azrael, Remiel, Uriel should go back to

What makes Lucifer difficult to scale in general is the nature of how angels work in this universe. That is: he really shouldn't have a consistent power rating. Something heavily emphasized in the show is that angels self-actualize their abilities, which seems to include their general statistics as well. Therefore, they should really have a varies statistic with a high and low listed as examples.

As for his durability, I think I agree with you.
One of the angel abilities he regularly manifests is invulnerability to mortal threats, which is implied to be hax rather than just a durability buff since it doesn't apply to other holy/demonic objects and comes and goes along with other powers like the devil face and mojo.

In fact, when he's not invulnerable, his durability seems very low, since he's harmed by normal knives and bullets if I recall.

The only thing which seems to be clearly above human levels no matter what is his strength, of which there are plenty of clear feats of in the show without us needing to make all these heinous assumptions of who he scales to or not.

 

[ByAsura]

I don't agree or disagree with downgrading Lucifer overall yet, but I have some problems with this, aside from some of what Arrow already mentioned.

since Imogen was easily killed by Manny

Imogen wasn't just fallen, because Fallen Angels are still incorporeal on the mortal plane.

Basically, Imogen is cast to Earth (but still in her incorporeal form) due to killing a mortal, she tears off a feather from her own wing to become corporeal (which also causes her to become extremely weak and start dying) and gives the feather to a pastor who uses it to acquire a significant amount of soul energy on her behalf, she then reincorporates her feather so that she can remain physically manifested on Earth but with at least some abilities.

Imogen was effectively just a super-powered mortal at that point.

his power's on earth are very clearly limited

What about the fact that Lucifer has reversed his self-actualisation multiple times and fought on par with full strength Archangels? This supposed limitation completely stops applying to Lucifer at a certain point. Also, even in his fallen state, we see Lucifer is still relative to fully-powered, high-tier Angels like Pre/Post-Fall Amenadiel.

Uriel who is not an archangel can beat Lucifer too

Amenadiel (who we've established is = Uriel) is explicitly much stronger than Uriel at full strength, and Lucifer was wiping the floor with him until he uses his abilities.

Lucifer is definitely way stronger than mid-tier Angels like Uriel, just not far enough above them that they aren't somewhat relative.

Conclusion

Overall, my problem with the ratings is that we're cross-scaling series and universes that don't seem to be compatible in terms of rules and magic systems.

Constantine Angels are like spirits that don't even seem to have the kind of presence for something like self-actualisation. If they actually possess a human body to manifest corporeally, they have none of the power or knowledge of their Angel form.

• MANNY: John. Listen to me. Listen. Do you know why I don't stay in a human body for very long? [...] John... when I am in a body I lose contact with the heavenly host, its vast stores of knowledge, and, more importantly, all of my angelic powers. - Angels and Ministers of Grace

They're even said to have souls of their own.

 

[ByArrow]

In fact, when he's not invulnerable, his durability seems very low, since he's harmed by normal knives and bullets if I recall.

Because he cancels all his angelic abilities, all his powers and reduces himself to the level of a human being. What would be the point of he being vulnerable if he remained durability?

The only thing which seems to be clearly above human levels no matter what is his strength, of which there are plenty of clear feats of in the show without us needing to make all these heinous assumptions of who he scales to or not.

It would be heinous if we didn't do this scaling. The most powerful magic user in the Multiverse is 9-C, but another magic user who is not as powerful is Low 7-B. The Archangel Amenadiel, the invincible warrior of God and Heaven, who is said to be a super-powerful angel, is only 9-C, but a fallen angel is Low 7-B. Oliver Queen, who is just a normal superhuman and an incompetent magic user, is thousands of times more powerful than an archangel, the most powerful magic user in the Multiverse. That's the real heinous. This is what the OP asserts and what you accept.

 

[ByArrow]

Overall, my problem with the ratings is that we're cross-scaling series and universes that don't seem to be compatible in terms of rules and magic systems.

In fact, on closer inspection, they compatible better than they look at first glance.

Constantine Angels are like spirits that don't even seem to have the kind of presence for something like self-actualisation.

It was never said that you need a body for self-actualization. People were going to hell because of self-actualization and could reach heaven through self-actualization even though they had no body.

If they actually possess a human body to manifest corporeally, they have none of the power or knowledge of their Angel form.

• MANNY: John. Listen to me. Listen. Do you know why I don't stay in a human body for very long? [...] John... when I am in a body I lose contact with the heavenly host, its vast stores of knowledge, and, more importantly, all of my angelic powers. - Angels and Ministers of Grace

This is an angel in the body of a human being, whereas the body of the Angels in Lucifer is not a human body but their own angelic bodies. So that's not much of a problem

 

[ByAsura]

In fact, when he's not invulnerable, his durability seems very low, since he's harmed by normal knives and bullets if I recall.

Lucifer's not just vulnerable around Chloe in those seasons, he can supposedly die (meaning he's not immortal at all) and is unable to use his power on her. We don't know if this is an accurate representation of Lucifer's durability without invulnerability.

It was never said that you need a body for self-actualization.

When I say presence, I don't mean body. I mean the level of existence they're on. They seem unable to really comprehend anything related to corporeality, such as self-doubt, without experiencing it as an ephemeral.

This is an angel in the body of a human being, whereas the body of the Angels in Lucifer is not a human body but their own angelic bodies. So that's not much of a problem

This is my point. Angels (including regular Angels) in Lucifer have their own physical bodies, whereas ones in Constantine don't and will lose their powers if they manifest corporeally, bar what Imogen did.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Not a fallen angel, but a fallen archangel.

Doesn't really matter.

Lucifer's powers were not limited on Earth, he was just holding back. All angels restrain themselves on earth.
Lucifer 2x5 "Weaponizer"

BS he couldn't have been holding back some of the times his life was in danger

This is clearly PIS.

You gonna have to use that excuse for 90% of Lucifer just to force him to scale to another shows that have little to no connection to Lucifer.

Lucifer said that Amenadiel was a super powerful angel.

Lucifer 2x5 "Weaponizer"

And when Uriel beat Amenadiel (Amenadiel had no powers here.) Lucifer said how is possible. Amenadiel said it happened because he had no powers.

They are clearly saying that it is not possible for an angel like Uriel to defeat an Archangel like Amenadiel.

Being slightly more powerful would have been enough to defeat them yet your scaling puts them tier apart which is clearly ridiculous when they are shown to be relative many times in the show, also Amenadiel is constantly refered to his ability on combat not so much for his strenght, having better martial arts than Maze would have still made him a really hard opponent since Uriel wouldn't be capable of properly predict his patters just like he said about Maze.

And Amanediel was able to defeat two angels without any difficulty by a single attack in the battle for godhood.

So? I can just say "PIS" to most of your arguments and I would still be using it less than you need to prove Lucifer is tier 7 to tier 6. And he used his wings against angels who weren't using theirs and just going for close combat, angels also have wings and are capable of using them to.

Irrelevant

Relevant to prove Lucifer doesn't need power superiority over demons to rule them

Because he is superior to weak demons like Tiberius and weaker than powerful demons like Pazuzu, demon kings, lords and gods.

And given what we've seen throughout the Arrowverse, it seems that he should be an average demon and the angels should be at least comparable to those on his level.

You said Lucifer is part of arrowverse the demons shown in Lucifer which appear in a lot more quantity than the ones shown on the rest of the arrowverse Lilim demons which are a lot more should be the average, and they are clearly just midly above human level.

Maze could fight Lucifer and Michael because Lucifer and Michael allowed her to. We saw that the Archangels could take Maze in one hit without difficulty, and even here they were retreating for her.

I'm not trying to prove Maze is stronger than them, I'm proving she can hurt them and is close enough in power to actually have fights with them.

She couldn't really hurt Uriel, she could only resist him for a while thanks to her fighting skills. Then Uriel locked her down and broke her arm. Then Maze hit Uriel directly in the head one after the other, but Uriel was unharmed, and he knocked Maze unconscious by one hit. Clearly Uriel is stronger than Maze.

They bleeded so they are hurt. Uriel won by outskilling using precog not because he is massively above her which would be what happends in a fight between a tier 7 and a tier 9 like maze.

And Amanadiel said that Maze could not beat him. And he easily defeated her. Twice.

Outskilled her.

Maze didn't fight Michael. Maze sneak attacked him from behind and put him in a neck lock. Michael did not fight back or try to break free.

He was being strangled by her and very clearly feeling out of breath.

She said she fought against the angels, but she didn't say she did it one-to-one. And she has weapons that can kill angels and she's a very skilled warrior, so it doesn't contradict the fact that demons are weaker.

IT contradicts your scaling that puts her massively bellow angels and archangels, it wouldn't even make a difference because a single attack from an angel should be capable of vaporizing Maze so skill wouldn't allow her to kill an angel.

This is an outlier/PIS.

Again how many times are you gonna use that argument?

Also, Amenadiel said that a demon could not beat a angel. And while the demons could not defeat Amenadiel and Lucifer, they both defeated the demons with a single attack. Clearly the Archangels are superior to the demons.

Again outskil which is what happens often in the show.

Also, Michael said a demon army wouldn't stand a chance against them.

Yet that wasn't what happened was it? Many angels died on that fight.

I literally gave the justification in the OP. Not because Lucifer can go to hell, but because during the crisis, when every magic user in the multiverse was weakened and even a powerful wizard like Constantine had no power to reach Purgatory, Lucifer saw this crisis as insignificant and created a card that could go to Purgatory. This literally means that Lucifer is stronger than Constantine.

You literally just said they were weakened, just because Lucifer has a different power source that allows him to get there doesn't prove power level superiority.

Also, John said he couldn't stop Imogen, a fallen angel. And he needed the help of another angel, Manny. Clearly even normal angels are beyond a powerful sorcerer like John.

Jonh's powers are inconsistent and usually require outside objects.

This feat convinced the staff because the staff wanted proof that Lucifer was beyond the human level. Instead of this feat, any wall-breaking feat too would have convinced them.

No, no it's not about beyond human level considering the staff mentioned that Lucifer was incapable of escaping and needed Maze to save him.

There is also a prophecy that Lucifer, an archangel, can bring about the end of the world. This was the main plot of the fourth season.

And season 4 is about demons going to earth controlling and killing humans, he is clearly refering to demons endind humanity.

That's exactly what you're saying. You just claimed that humans (And these humans are not even 9-B.) can harm archangels, angels and demons.

Not what I said, for starters you need a way to bypass their invulnerability to hurt Lucifer, that's an hax not durability.

And by the way, the 9-A ratings come from the feat you claim is unusable. So you are proposing to downgrade them to 9-C. And because of the Scaling, you are proposing to downgrade all the magic users, demons and gods in the Verse and those who scale to them, to that level.

So be it get them to wall level, and no this would not affect other magic users and demons or gods, just Lucifer shows characters and their power level on earth

 

[ByAsura]

BS he couldn't have been holding back some of the times his life was in danger

I don't mean to cherry pick your arguments, but can you elaborate on this here? What times are you referring to?

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

What about the fact that Lucifer has reversed his self-actualisation multiple times and fought on par with full strength Archangels? This supposed limitation completely stops applying to Lucifer at a certain point. Also, even in his fallen state, we see Lucifer is still relative to fully-powered, high-tier Angels like Pre/Post-Fall Amenadiel.

Either the limitations apply to all of them when they came to earth or they are just wall level too, simple as that.

Amenadiel (who we've established is = Uriel) is explicitly much stronger than Uriel at full strength, and Lucifer was wiping the floor with him until he uses his abilities.

His ability is precog it doesn't affect his stats, and surely wouldn't affect his ability hurt Lucifer.

Lucifer is definitely way stronger than mid-tier Angels like Uriel, just not far enough above them that they aren't somewhat relative.

Exacly my point, even if they are somehow stronger just isn't enough to push them to be tier above them as it is right now.

Overall, my problem with the ratings is that we're cross-scaling series and universes that don't seem to be compatible in terms of rules and magic systems.

Constantine Angels are like spirits that don't even seem to have the kind of presence for something like self-actualisation. If they actually possess a human body to manifest corporeally, they have none of the power or knowledge of their Angel form.

• MANNY: John. Listen to me. Listen. Do you know why I don't stay in a human body for very long? [...] John... when I am in a body I lose contact with the heavenly host, its vast stores of knowledge, and, more importantly, all of my angelic powers. - Angels and Ministers of Grace

They're even said to have souls of their own.

There are a lot of contradictions between Lucifer and the rest of the shows, God who is now rated as tier 1 always talks about his creation as a universe, Constantine even introduces Satan and other demons who was the snake on Eden both of which should be Lucifer as it was left clear he was all those on the bible.

 

[ByAsura]

Either the limitations apply to all of them when they came to earth or they are just wall level too, simple as that.

I'll bypass the Wall level stuff for now.

Ok, then prove there are limitations on Earth, because you're making the claim and you don't seem to have any evidence here outside of Imogen, who's not actually applicable.

His ability is precog it doesn't affect his stats, and surely wouldn't affect his ability hurt Lucifer.

I'm not saying it does, I'm addressing your point that this is proof that Lucifer was weakened.

Exacly my point, even if they are somehow stronger just isn't enough to push them to be tier above them as it is right now.

That'd just mean they downscale from Lucifer, if we go by the current ratings.

There are a lot of contradictions between Lucifer and the rest of the shows, God who is now rated as tier 1 always talks about his creation as a universe, Constantine even introduces Satan and other demons who was the snake on Eden both of which should be Lucifer as it was left clear he was all those on the bible.

Yeah, we definitely need to do something to recognise this. I'm fine with outright cutting the chord on Lucifer scaling to the Angels and Demons in the wider multiverse.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I don't mean to cherry pick your arguments, but can you elaborate on this here? What times are you referring to?

Clear example was him fighting Ureal which Chloe was on the line who he values enough to kill him.
There is also Lucifer is scaling to sub relativist while other angels scale to supersonic (BTW angels were being killed by bullets during the war to godhood) which makes no sense as Lucifer is clearly incapable of dodging bullets or he wouldn't have almost died in season 1, or be in trouble when he was about to die to Pierce's men.
BTW regarding something you mentioned when Lucifer is close to Chloe he has all his powers except his invulnerability, he is still super strong, he can still use his devil face, he can even use his wings, in season 4 when Chloe gets back after finding out about Lucifer, he starts to brag about his Devil strenght so it shouldn't affect his strenght while close to chloe, also the whole point about why he loses his invulnerability is a metaphor for being emotionally vulnerable with chloe.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I'll bypass the Wall level stuff for now.

Ok, then prove there are limitations on Earth, because you're making the claim and you don't seem to have any evidence here outside of Imogen, who's not actually applicable.

I don't want to prove it, I'm making a guess for why they just cannot use the powers that they are currently scaling to since the entire show makes so many contradictions

I'm not saying it does, I'm addressing your point that this is proof that Lucifer was weakened.

I never said that was proof he was weakened.

That'd just mean they downscale from Lucifer, if we go by the current ratings.

The current ratings are absurdly inconsistent to the point they contradict entire plots of Lucifer show

Yeah, we definitely need to do something to recognise this. I'm fine with outright cutting the chord on Lucifer scaling to the Angels and Demons in the wider multiverse.

I'm more in line with a cosmology split on Lucifer from the whole arrowverse, aside the contradictions there is the fact that Lucifer isn't even a fully CW show, and I don't think it was ever supervised by the same people who made the rest of the arrowverse, there is even the fact that Lucifer was dropped and picked up by netflix which brought most of the info about God.
But my main point with this is that Lucifer can't scale to what happens in other shows as it outright contradicts it.

 

[ByAsura]

There is also Lucifer is scaling to sub relativist

I can't see Lucifer having anything more than Subsonic reflexes and combat speed, if I'm being honest. I support the downgrade, even if I don't agree with a lot of your points.

so it shouldn't affect his strenght while close to chloe

Yeah, he's definitely not punching any less hard around Chloe, at least as far as we can tell.

I don't want to prove it, I'm making a guess for why they just cannot use the powers that they are currently scaling to since the entire show makes so many contradictions

I was asking because we'd need to apply new keys on the profiles if this was the case. I guess no keys, then.

I'm more in line with a cosmology split on Lucifer from the whole arrowverse, aside the contradictions there is the fact that Lucifer isn't even a fully CW show, and I don't think it was ever supervised by the same people who made the rest of the arrowverse, there is even the fact that Lucifer was dropped and picked up by netflix which brought most of the info about God.

I think this is what we should do, as well.

There is an appearance during Crisis, but it's really just a cameo.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I can't see Lucifer having anything more than Subsonic reflexes and combat speed, if I'm being honest. I support the downgrade, even if I don't agree with a lot of your points.

Even if most of my points were wrong there is something clear, Lucifer being above Maze doesn't prove he is above Sabbac who he is curretly scaling to, nor does he being superior to Ureal make him superior to Manny, it's clear that angels and demons have their own powers.

I think this is what we should do, as well.

There is an appearance during Crisis, but it's really just a cameo.

There were many cameos in Crisis just because this one was a bigger one shouldn't really make it cannon. Also it's pretty contradictory, if he could just make a card that can make them travel to purgatory easily there was no point in killing himself to go to hell save Chloe in season 2

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I can't see Lucifer having anything more than Subsonic reflexes and combat speed, if I'm being honest. I support the downgrade, even if I don't agree with a lot of your points.

Yeah, he's definitely not punching any less hard around Chloe, at least as far as we can tell.

I was asking because we'd need to apply new keys on the profiles if this was the case. I guess no keys, then.

I think this is what we should do, as well.

There is an appearance during Crisis, but it's really just a cameo.

What makes Lucifer difficult to scale in general is the nature of how angels work in this universe. That is: he really shouldn't have a consistent power rating. Something heavily emphasized in the show is that angels self-actualize their abilities, which seems to include their general statistics as well. Therefore, they should really have a varies statistic with a high and low listed as examples.

As for his durability, I think I agree with you.
One of the angel abilities he regularly manifests is invulnerability to mortal threats, which is implied to be hax rather than just a durability buff since it doesn't apply to other holy/demonic objects and comes and goes along with other powers like the devil face and mojo.

In fact, when he's not invulnerable, his durability seems very low, since he's harmed by normal knives and bullets if I recall.

The only thing which seems to be clearly above human levels no matter what is his strength, of which there are plenty of clear feats of in the show without us needing to make all these heinous assumptions of who he scales to or not.

So how should this proceed? You both seem to agree that Lucifer shouldn't scale as he is now but have different views of what it should be scaled to. And a cosmology split is way too big to be discussed in this thread considering it would for certain affect God with a bunch of tier 1s

 

[ByAsura]

I think so, yes.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I think so, yes.

So how should this proceed? You both seem to agree that Lucifer shouldn't scale as he is now but have different views of what it should be scaled to. And a cosmology split is way too big to be discussed in this thread considering it would for certain affect God with a bunch of tier 1s

Bump?

 

[ByAsura]

I'll go over some of the TV show again for new ratings. I remember some stuff like Lucifer holding back a car, but being unable to punch through reinforced steel.

Also, Arrow won't be participating in any significant way due to being on a break.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I'll go over some of the TV show again for new ratings. I remember some stuff like Lucifer holding back a car, but being unable to punch through reinforced steel.

I remember he breaking his own wall which was ststed to be some fancy kinda stone, I remember maze breaking handcuffs, he throwing that guy through glass, bending a weapon. That's what came to mind right now. I think he will be wall level, just can't scale him to his invulnerable.

Also, Arrow won't be participating in any significant way due to being on a break.

Yeah, it really was felt strange that even after so much time he wasn't responding.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

What makes Lucifer difficult to scale in general is the nature of how angels work in this universe. That is: he really shouldn't have a consistent power rating. Something heavily emphasized in the show is that angels self-actualize their abilities, which seems to include their general statistics as well. Therefore, they should really have a varies statistic with a high and low listed as examples.

As for his durability, I think I agree with you.
One of the angel abilities he regularly manifests is invulnerability to mortal threats, which is implied to be hax rather than just a durability buff since it doesn't apply to other holy/demonic objects and comes and goes along with other powers like the devil face and mojo.

In fact, when he's not invulnerable, his durability seems very low, since he's harmed by normal knives and bullets if I recall.

The only thing which seems to be clearly above human levels no matter what is his strength, of which there are plenty of clear feats of in the show without us needing to make all these heinous assumptions of who he scales to or not.

Bump

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

bump

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Bump

 

[ByArrow]

I don't have time to argue, but here's what I'd like to say. Let's split Lucifer's profile into two keys, a series key and an Arrowverse key. Let the series key consist of his feats and the Arrowverse key hold this scaling.

The Series key holds only its own abilities, and the Arrowverse key holds abilities from both the series and scaling.

And let's apply it to all the angels (series).

As I mentioned in previous threads, the Lucifer series was retroactively incorporated into the arrowverse multiverse, and it was shown that realms outside the multiverse, like hell and purgatory, are same. So I don't think there is a need to split the cosmology and split God’s profile.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I don't have time to argue, but here's what I'd like to say. Let's split Lucifer's profile into two keys, a series key and an Arrowverse key. Let the series key consist of his feats and the Arrowverse key hold this scaling.

I'm not totally against that but seems kinda overkill since we will be basing a key on a single cameo and a lot of vague scaling.

The Series key holds only its own abilities, and the Arrowverse key holds abilities from both the series and scaling.

And let's apply it to all the angels (series).

As far as I'm aware no other angel (from Lucifer show) but Lucifer appeared in the arrowverse.

As I mentioned in previous threads, the Lucifer series was retroactively incorporated into the arrowverse multiverse, and it was shown that realms outside the multiverse, like hell and purgatory, are same. So I don't think there is a need to split the cosmology and split God’s profile.

Just to let clear DC comics had way less inconsistencies and way better reasons to be in the same cosmology but it was split, so did Marvel. Also Hell being outside the multiverse contradicts with what is shown in the Lucifer show, Goddess is incapable of travelling between her own universe and God's universe aside from a one time thing, God also said he wanted to see the Goddess's universe so his omniscience surely doesn't go that far.
Also there is a big contradiction which is the way Lucifer describes the creation of the universe, he says that God and goddess banged and created the big bang, problem is the crises event happened before the Lucifer show begin which means the multiverse was not created by god but Specter and the paragons, so we do need to split god's profile anyways.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Bump

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Bimp

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Bomp

 

[ByAsura]

I've just got off a work thing. That's why I've been gone between tuesday and friday.

I'm neutral on the cosmology keys.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I've just got off a work thing. That's why I've been gone between tuesday and friday.

I'm neutral on the cosmology keys.

I think we can just downgrade now and then make another CRT about the cosmology split, so I think there are 3 staff who agreed with the downgrade but we need to know what to replace with.
Regarding the cosmology split do you wanna do it or it's fine if I did? I might take sometime to do it.
Would like to finish the Kree sandbox first

 

[ByAsura]

I have a quintillion other projects going on right now, so you or someone else can handle it.

If I want to change anything about the profiles, I'll make another CRT.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I have a quintillion other projects going on right now, so you or someone else can handle it.

If I want to change anything about the profiles, I'll make another CRT.

Finepoint doesn't seem to be caming back, so how can we finish this? Also gonna need their pages unlocked.

And I have a question about the whole cosmology split, how would heaven and hell work? Lucifer cut space time for the goddess but that place shouldn't be connected to neither hell or heaven since God's omniscience doesn't reach there, so is Heaven and Hell just spiritual dimensions instead of being "outside time and space"?