Arrowverse CRT: Archangels and Angels

[ByArrow]

This thread is about abilities that should be added to archangels and angels and scaling of archangels and angels.

First, let's start with the abilities that every angel has.

• Magic:The power of angels is magic based.

"I call them ghouls."

"They're formed by magic gone wrong."

(Constantine s1 e7)

A preacher with Imogen's wing healed people. (Imogen is a fallen angel)

The people the preacher healed turned into ghouls and followed the wing.

Constantine said that ghouls were created by magic gone wrong.

This shows that the angels' powers are magic-based.

• Clairvoyance: Angels can hear prayers

Angels can hear prayers, as shown in the TV series Lucifer and Constantine

• Reality Warping: Angels can hear prayers and bring them to life.

(In the TV series Lucifer and Constantine, it was shown that angels can reality warping.)

• Limited Non-Physical Interaction: Angels can make physical contact with spirits. (This ability is limited as it seems to work everywhere except on Earth)

Lucifer touches dan's shoulder, Rorry carries Dan in her arms to the world

• Possession: Angels can possess human bodies and use them as hosts while also manifest their supernatural powers through them.[4][1]
• Acausality (Type 4): Angels were created before time.

Lucifer says that his father has been disrespecting him since the beginning of time, which means that Lucifer existed long before the beginning of time.

at the beginning of the series, it is said that Lucifer was expelled from heaven "in the beginning" and became the ruler of hell, which means that Lucifer existed before the beginning.

• Self-Sustenance (Type 1, 2 and 3)
• Power Bestowal: angels can give themselves strength thanks to the ability to self-realization. (Amenadiel gave himself the power to stop time, Lucifer gave himself a demon face)
• Power Nullification: Angels can cancel their own powers thanks to their ability to self-actualize. This was shown by Lucifer losing his desire mojo and Amenadiel losing his angel abilities.
• Invulnerability: Angels are immune to traditional attacks thanks to their physiology

Cain shoots lucifer, and lucifer is not impressed by it

Amenadiel is being shot and is not impressed

It is also mentioned many times during the series that the angels are invulnerability

• Teleportation: They can transport from place to place, seemingly instantaneously[4]
• Resistance to Time Manipulation: It has been shown many times that angels and demons are not affected by time manipulation.
• Extrasensory Perception: Angels can see souls

Angels can see souls, as we see in the TV series Lucifer

When Rorry brought Dan back to earth, Lucifer, Rorry, and Amenadiel could see Dan.

Profiles that will receive these abilities; Manny, Lucifer, Amenadiel, Michael, Azrael, Remiel, Uriel

Now let's move on to the abilities that Lucifer Morningstar has.

• Sound Manipulation: when he returned from heaven, he spoke with a divine voice
• Pain Manipulation: His mere Voice causes mortals to suffer irresistibly
• Hellfire Manipulation: he has full control over hell and can therefore control hellfire
• Enhanced Senses: Lucifer feels is near without seeing Chloe and makes himself vulnerable

If you watch the scene, you can see Lucifer stubs his foot and gets injured before Chloe gets off the elevator

So even though Chloe hasn't entered the room yet, Lucifer feels her presence and makes himself vulnerable

• Cosmic Awareness: When Constantine, Diggle and Mia came to get help from lucifer, lucifer knew that the multiverse had disappeared and that constantine had come from another universe
• İn hell Ice Manipulation (He said he could freeze hell.)

This ability is only in hell

• BFR: He can send demons to hell.
• Body Puppetry: He can control demons.
• Resistance to Electricity Manipulation: Unaffected by Electricity
• Regeneration (Low-Mid):The severed limbs of archangels are regenerated. (Only archangels scale to this.)
• Madness Manipulation: The devil face can drive people crazy.

After Lucifer cuts off his own wings, his wings regenerate.

That's all the abilities were. Now let's move on to scaling

Let's start with the angels first.

Angels should be at least comparable to average demons like Nero.

This scaling is supported by the fact that Manny, an angel, can randomly destroy the rain in a city and bring it back.

Characters that will scale to this: Manny, Azrael, Remiel, Uriel,

Archangels are next

Archangels should at least scale above than angels like Manny, demons like Mallus, Neron and Sabbac, and wizards like Constantine

While the magic of Constantine, one of the most powerful wizards, is not strong enough to go to purgatory during the crisis, Lucifer, an archangel, does this casually.

Characters that will scale to this: Lucifer, Amenadiel, Michael

Those in agreement: @zaraus @E6pire @DarkDragonMedeus @Theglassman12 @FinePoint (He agrees with the abilities but did not say whether he agrees with scaling after the last counter arguments.)

Those in disagreement:

Those yet to form an opinion:

 

[ByArrow]

Bump

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

This thread is about abilities that should be added to archangels and angels and scaling of archangels and angels.

First, let's start with the abilities that every angel has.

• Magic:The power of angels is magic based.

(Constantine s1 e7)

A preacher with Imogen's wing healed people. (Imogen is a fallen angel)

The people the preacher healed turned into ghouls and followed the wing.

Constantine said that ghouls were created by magic gone wrong.

This shows that the angels' powers are magic-based.

Not sure about this one, Lucifer series does not mention magic at any moment and Earth 666 that Lucifer is from is not the prime one constantine lives with the rest of the heroes, but at the same time Lucifer created some magic card for constantine to go to hell.

• Clairvoyance: Angels can hear prayers

Angels can hear prayers, as shown in the TV series Lucifer and Constantine

• Reality Warping: Angels can hear prayers and bring them to life.

(In the TV series Lucifer and Constantine, it was shown that angels can reality warping.)

Seems fine

• Limited Non-Physical Interaction: Angels can make physical contact with spirits. (This ability is limited as it seems to work everywhere except on Earth)

Lucifer touches dan's shoulder, Rorry carries Dan in her arms to the world

An angel can take the soul of a dead one to heaven or hell as we have seen with Amenadiel taking Charlottes soul and even Chloes soul to hell at the end of the show. Apparently the rule is that they can't take a soul back from hell to the living world when their bodies are dead. But then again it's kinda weird because Lucifer goes to hell when his body died and then got ressurected back to his body, also Eve abd Adam can came and go from the living world to heaven as they please, so i guess it's only limited from travelling from Earth back to hell after the body can't be used anymore.

• Possession: Angels can possess human bodies and use them as hosts while also manifest their supernatural powers through them.[4][1]

This is also weird one, while the goddess in lucifer can indeed do possess dead bodies angels like lucifer don't really have that.

• Acausality (Type 4): Angels were created before time.

Lucifer says that his father has been disrespecting him since the beginning of time, which means that Lucifer existed long before the beginning of time.

That doesn't support your claim, he was probably created at the begining of time and they were created as "adults" so it's likely he just refeers to God being an a$$ since his "birth" which happened at the beginning of time

• Self-Sustenance (Type 1, 2 and 3): Angels do not need things like oxygen, food, or sleep because they existed before time.

I think its truew bui i dont go well with that justification

• Power Bestowal: angels can give themselves strength thanks to the ability to self-realization. (Amenadiel gave himself the power to stop time, Lucifer gave himself a demon face)

Don't think so, first i think giving power to themselves seems to contradict the "power bestowal" and second they aren0t actually giving themselves powers, the self realization is based on them uncounsciously stopping themselves from being able to use those powers, it's just a power they always had but sometimes they give themselves a sort of "mental block" that stops them from using it.

• Power Nullification: Angels can cancel their own powers thanks to their ability to self-actualize. This was shown by Lucifer losing his desire mojo and Amenadiel losing his angel abilities.

Again same thing they don't really null their powers they just uncounsciously make themselves unable to use it, i don't think it counts but this one is odd.

• Invulnerability: Angels are immune to traditional attacks thanks to their physiology

Cain shoots lucifer, and lucifer is not impressed by it

Amenadiel is being shot and is not impressed

It is also mentioned many times during the series that the angels are invulnerability

Unless they choose to be vulnerable

• Teleportation: They can transport from place to place, seemingly instantaneously[4]

Dont think it applies to earth 666 as they still need to travel from place to place and even travel from Earth to hell or heaven by flying, which is weird i dont know how to classify that,is there some kind of invisible portal that they need to reach to go to those realms or they make a portal and go through it? It was never shown how does the they travel.

• Resistance to Time Manipulation: It has been shown many times that angels and demons are not affected by time manipulation.

Profiles that will receive these abilities; Manny, Lucifer, Amenadiel, Michael, Azrael, Remiel, Uriel

I think it's more like resistance to powers from other angels like how Lucifer can't charm other celestial beings so the only way for a angel to fight another angel is physical fight, with "artifacts" or indirectly attack one another through someone else. But sure this still applies just that we should assume they have resistance to every power from every angel.

Now let's move on to the abilities that Lucifer Morningstar has.

• Sound Manipulation: when he returned from heaven, he spoke with a divine voice
• Pain Manipulation: His mere Voice causes mortals to suffer irresistibly
• Hellfire Manipulation: he has full control over hell and can therefore control hellfire

His hell doen't seem to have actual fire so that might not apply to 666

• Enhanced Senses: Lucifer feels is near without seeing Chloe and makes himself vulnerable

If you watch the scene, you can see Lucifer stubs his foot and gets injured before Chloe gets off the elevator

So even though Chloe hasn't entered the room yet, Lucifer feels her presence and makes himself vulnerable

That's a weird one might be a passive "miracle" that he put on himself maybe he is not actually sensing her but sure go with that.

• Cosmic Awareness: When Constantine, Diggle and Mia came to get help from lucifer, lucifer knew that the multiverse had disappeared and that constantine had come from another universe
• İn hell Ice Manipulation (He said he could freeze hell. This ability is only in hell

Pretty sure that was not to be taken seriously but sure he seems to be able to control hell loops but he never actually shown to be able to control hell itself, we see that he still needs to go around searchign for the right door, and he even lost control to a certain extent for being inside a weird hell loop

• BFR: He can send demons to hell.

Pretty sure he didn't the demons just obey his orders, so they got sent back to hell because it's what happens when they let go of the body, But he would get BFR anyways since he can transport people to and back from hell or heaven like other angels.

• Body Puppetry: He can control demons.

Again not really, they just serve a master which so happens to be Lucifer, they obey his orders on their own will

• Resistance to Electricity Manipulation: Unaffected by Electricity

This is likely because of his invulnerability so sure.

• Regeneration (Low-Mid):The severed limbs of archangels are regenerated. (Only archangels scale to this.)

After Lucifer cuts off his own wings, his wings regenerate.

Don't know how much i feel about this one but i guess it's fine.

That's all the abilities were. Now let's move on to scaling

Let's start with the angels first.

Angels should be at least comparable to average demons like Nero.

This scaling is supported by the fact that Manny, an angel, can randomly destroy the rain in a city and bring it back.

Characters that will scale to this: Manny, Azrael, Remiel, Uriel,

Archangels are next

Archangels should at least scale above than angels like Manny, demons like Mallus and Neron, and wizards like Constantine

Nero, Mallus, Neuron are very clearly not an average demon even more seeing that Mazekin is supposed to be a special one and she was never shown to even have any magic or supernatural power other than her face and immortality, and i think we should keep it separated, overall i think we should just keep arrow verse hell separated from lucifer, they might be in the same place but they go by different rules and considering they constatly break lucifer's rule of possession humans it's best to separate it

While the magic of Constantine, one of the most powerful wizards, is not strong enough to go to purgatory during the crisis, Lucifer, an archangel, does this casually.

Characters that will scale to this: Lucifer, Amenadiel, Michael

This scaling is useless for their full form self so im guessing you want them to scale for their "earth self" which I disagree since they very clearly do not have any significant powers or magic and they mostly just fully rely on their "innate ability"

 

[ByArrow]

This is also weird one, while the goddess in lucifer can indeed do possess dead bodies angels like lucifer don't really have that.z

You can't say Lucifer doesn't have that. Since Lucifer is against taking over people, he never takes over anyone, and the angels we see in Lucifer do not dare to do something that an archangel with a flaming sword is against.

That doesn't support your claim, he was probably created at the begining of time and they were created as "adults" so it's likely he just refeers to God being an a$$ since his "birth" which happened at the beginning of time

Lucifer's relationship with his father wasn't always bad.

Don't think so, first i think giving power to themselves seems to contradict the "power bestowal" and second they aren0t actually giving themselves powers, the self realization is based on them uncounsciously stopping themselves from being able to use those powers, it's just a power they always had but sometimes they give themselves a sort of "mental block" that stops them from using it.

Giving yourself power is not in conflict with "power bestowal".

Again same thing they don't really null their powers they just uncounsciously make themselves unable to use it, i don't think it counts but this one is odd.

The fact that Lucifer made himself vulnerable and Amenadiel lost all his angel powers shows that they can actually cancel their own powers.

Dont think it applies to earth 666 as they still need to travel from place to place and even travel from Earth to hell or heaven by flying, which is weird i dont know how to classify that,is there some kind of invisible portal that they need to reach to go to those realms or they make a portal and go through it? It was never shown how does the they travel.

In the Arrowverse, there is only one heaven, one hell, and one purgatory. There's no reason why it shouldn't apply to earth-666.

His hell doen't seem to have actual fire so that might not apply to 666

As we saw in the 7th season of Legends of Tomorrow, there really is fire in hell.

Pretty sure that was not to be taken seriously but sure he seems to be able to control hell loops but he never actually shown to be able to control hell itself, we see that he still needs to go around searchign for the right door, and he even lost control to a certain extent for being inside a weird hell loop

Lucifer does not lie due to his personality and can do so considering his control over hell. His search doesn't mean he doesn't have control over all hell. Also lost control because he entered the hell cycle to help the man and if he got out he wouldn't be able to help. Just like he can't get out of his own cycle because he thinks he deserves to be punished. The only reason for these is "self-realization"

Nero, Mallus, Neuron are very clearly not an average demon even more seeing that Mazekin is supposed to be a special one and she was never shown to even have any magic or supernatural power other than her face and immortality, and i think we should keep it separated, overall i think we should just keep arrow verse hell separated from lucifer, they might be in the same place but they go by different rules and considering they constatly break lucifer's rule of possession humans it's best to separate it

I didn't say Mallus was average demon. It is obvious that Mallus is a high-level demon.

Mazikeen doesn't need to be strong to be special. Lucifer had sympathy for her and her mother, which makes her special.

Stop making distinctions between Arrowverse hell and Lucifer hell, they are the same, not different. And what rules are you talking about? They have exactly the same rules, and we don't know if the demons we see in Arrowverse are punished after returning to hell. We also don't know what Lucifer does to demons who break this rule.

Separating the hells means that each earth has a different hell, heaven and purgatory. This contradicts Oliver's death in Earth 1, his resurrection in Earth 18, and Constantine, John and Mia's go from Earth 666 to Purgatory to Oliver's side.

Since Oliver dies on Earth 1, his soul ends up in Earth 1 heaven or hell. In this case, Constantine would not have gone to another world and tried to resurrect Oliver, because Oliver is not in that world's heaven or hell, but he went and tried. Then they went to Earth 666 and bought a card from Lucifer. How can Lucifer know which world's purgatory, heaven or hell Oliver is in? and give them a card to take them there. These show that hell is the same.

This scaling is useless for their full form self so im guessing you want them to scale for their "earth self" which I disagree since they very clearly do not have any significant powers or magic and they mostly just fully rely on their "innate ability"

How can you say they don't have significant power? Their war brought god to earth, lucifer downplayed the antimonitor crisis, casually did something that the most powerful wizard was beyond the power of. Are these unimportant?

and they never mentioned what their powers were based on so you can't say their powers aren't magic based. As Constantine said, they are magic based.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

You can't say Lucifer doesn't have that. Since Lucifer is against taking over people, he never takes over anyone, and the angels we see in Lucifer do not dare to do something that an archangel with a flaming sword is against.

There is no proof he can, we know that the godess and the demons can only go to earth by possessing a body, but no angel possesses a body.

Lucifer's relationship with his father wasn't always bad.

Ludifer is not saying the relationship with his father was always bad but that God desrespects him since always.

Giving yourself power is not in conflict with "power bestowal".

The page for power bestowal very clearly talks about it needing to be given to another person or object.

The fact that Lucifer made himself vulnerable and Amenadiel lost all his angel powers shows that they can actually cancel their own powers.

It's not actually cancel as much as is not using them.

In the Arrowverse, there is only one heaven, one hell, and one purgatory. There's no reason why it shouldn't apply to earth-666.

The very series has many inconsistencies regarding what happened in the rest of the CW shows and it gets even worse because CW did not made the 3 last seasons of Lucifer it was Netflix.

As we saw in the 7th season of Legends of Tomorrow, there really is fire in hell.

Again there are many inconsistencies like why didn't Luffy stop demons from possessing others since that was a very rule made by himself and that he very clearly made sure that the ones who disobeyed are punished.

Lucifer does not lie due to his personality and can do so considering his control over hell. His search doesn't mean he doesn't have control over all hell. Also lost control because he entered the hell cycle to help the man and if he got out he wouldn't be able to help. Just like he can't get out of his own cycle because he thinks he deserves to be punished. The only reason for these is "self-realization"

And again that only proves that he probably just isnt aware that the part of hell that is shown in other series either is exist or that he doesn't control them, anyways just shows his control over hell is not "omnipotent".

I didn't say Mallus was average demon. It is obvious that Mallus is a high-level demon.

Mazikeen doesn't need to be strong to be special. Lucifer had sympathy for her and her mother, which makes her special.

Pretty sure she was presented as the best fighter of the pits of hell or something like that.

Stop making distinctions between Arrowverse hell and Lucifer hell, they are the same, not different. And what rules are you talking about? They have exactly the same rules, and we don't know if the demons we see in Arrowverse are punished after returning to hell. We also don't know what Lucifer does to demons who break this rule.

We know they don't otherwise they wouldnt be allowed to keep doing it, heck some of them had to be "sealed" by constantine. As for rules Lucifer's hell does not have the "shared rooms" they stay in hell loop until they finally go to heaven, there is no coins for souls nothing like that was ever shown to happen. Many of the rules that are shown in Lucifer just mean nothing in the other series and since 3 of the seasons were not even made by CW it should be clear.

Separating the hells means that each earth has a different hell, heaven and purgatory. This contradicts Oliver's death in Earth 1, his resurrection in Earth 18, and Constantine, John and Mia's go from Earth 666 to Purgatory to Oliver's side.

I'm not saying they aren't in the same plane/dimension, im saying that Lucifer rules a part of hell and the rest is off his domain and as such we should treat both differently

How can you say they don't have significant power? Their war brought god to earth, lucifer downplayed the antimonitor crisis, casually did something that the most powerful wizard was beyond the power of. Are these unimportant?

God just didnt want his kids to fight which is likely just something Netflix made up since he never stopped the death of one of his kids. And technically because of crisis Lucifer might not have died but Chloe would have, which clearly is not intended by Lucifer and we know very clearly that all Earth's were destroyed.

and they never mentioned what their powers were based on so you can't say their powers aren't magic based. As Constantine said, they are magic based.

They are considered creations of a celestial being even if their power is magic based that doesnt mean they will scale or have the same powers as other magic being even if considered inferior to them, they never even actually shown any sort of magical energy we are just assuming it's magic.

 

[zaraus]

l agree

 

[E6pire]

I agree to the end.

 

[ByArrow]

There is no proof he can, we know that the godess and the demons can only go to earth by possessing a body, but no angel possesses a body.

In the OP, I gave references proving that angels possessing a body. If you disagree with the OP, prove that angels cannot possess humans.

Ludifer is not saying the relationship with his father was always bad but that God desrespects him since always.

He's not saying he's always been disrespectful, he's saying he's been disrespectful since the beginning of time. And his father didn't always disrespect him.

The page for power bestowal very clearly talks about it needing to be given to another person or object.

So what ability is this supposed to be?

The very series has many inconsistencies regarding what happened in the rest of the CW shows and it gets even worse because CW did not made the 3 last seasons of Lucifer it was Netflix.

You know the Arrowverse has tons of inconsistencies even within itself, right?

Again there are many inconsistencies like why didn't Luffy stop demons from possessing others since that was a very rule made by himself and that he very clearly made sure that the ones who disobeyed are punished.

Lucifer made a rule that prevented demons from possessing others, and most demons followed it. Even in the series, demons did not come to earth unless they thought Lucifer was weakening.

And again that only proves that he probably just isnt aware that the part of hell that is shown in other series either is exist or that he doesn't control them, anyways just shows his control over hell is not "omnipotent".

It doesn't prove any such thing. It doesn't show that he is not capable of everything, it just shows that he can question himself.

Pretty sure she was presented as the best fighter of the pits of hell or something like that.

Best fighter=/=strongest demon

We know they don't otherwise they wouldnt be allowed to keep doing it, heck some of them had to be "sealed" by constantine. As for rules Lucifer's hell does not have the "shared rooms" they stay in hell loop until they finally go to heaven, there is no coins for souls nothing like that was ever shown to happen. Many of the rules that are shown in Lucifer just mean nothing in the other series and since 3 of the seasons were not even made by CW it should be clear.

It's not allowed anyway, but they do it anyway. You know demons are immortal and time is different in hell, right? When the demons in the Arrowverse returned to hell, they could return at some point unless Lucifer destroyed them. You know we didn't see all of hell in the Lucifer series, right? For God's sake, Lucifer and Maze constantly talk about their torture in Hell and say that the people they torture know and remember their torturer. But we have not seen these scenes in hell, but this does not mean that they do not torture in hell. This in itself refutes the argument that souls remain in the loop of hell until they die. In one episode, Lucifer dismisses a demon and the demon goes somewhere. If hell were just hell loops, this demon would have nowhere to go.

I'm not saying they aren't in the same plane/dimension, im saying that Lucifer rules a part of hell and the rest is off his domain and as such we should treat both differently

This is complete nonsense. If this were the case, there would be no need for Lucifer to go back to hell, and there is nothing to support this.

God just didnt want his kids to fight which is likely just something Netflix made up since he never stopped the death of one of his kids. And technically because of crisis Lucifer might not have died but Chloe would have, which clearly is not intended by Lucifer and we know very clearly that all Earth's were destroyed.

God allows one of his children to disappear from existence, but he doesn't allow them to fight? You know how ridiculous this is, right? It didn't matter that Chloe died and Earth 666 was destroyed, Lucifer saw an event of this scale as insignificant.

They are considered creations of a celestial being even if their power is magic based that doesnt mean they will scale or have the same powers as other magic being even if considered inferior to them, they never even actually shown any sort of magical energy we are just assuming it's magic.

You know that magic doesn't always appear as energy, right? In many verses, magic does not even have a physical appearance, but this does not mean that magic does not exist. Also, we do not assume anything. Constantine says that the power of angels is magic. This is not an assumption, it is a fact.

 

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[FinePoint]

First, let's start with the abilities that every angel has.

• Magic: The power of angels is magic based.

Sure.

• Clairvoyance: Angels can hear prayers

This is extrasensory perception, not clairvoyance.

Angels can hear prayers, as shown in the TV series Lucifer and Constantine

• Reality Warping: Angels can hear prayers and bring them to life.

Scan? I don't remember this part.

(In the TV series Lucifer and Constantine, it was shown that angels can reality warping.)

• Limited Non-Physical Interaction: Angels can make physical contact with spirits. (This ability is limited as it seems to work everywhere except on Earth)

Lucifer touches dan's shoulder, Rorry carries Dan in her arms to the world

• Possession: Angels can possess human bodies and use them as hosts while also manifest their supernatural powers through them.[4][1]

Sure.

• Acausality (Type 4): Angels were created before time.

Lucifer says that his father has been disrespecting him since the beginning of time, which means that Lucifer existed long before the beginning of time.

Scan? I remember them existing at the beginning of time, but not before it, and disrespecting him since the beginning of time only inherently implies the former, not the latter.

• Self-Sustenance (Type 1, 2 and 3)

Sure, when invulnerable.

• Power Bestowal: angels can give themselves strength thanks to the ability to self-realization. (Amenadiel gave himself the power to stop time, Lucifer gave himself a demon face)
• Power Nullification: Angels can cancel their own powers thanks to their ability to self-actualize. This was shown by Lucifer losing his desire mojo and Amenadiel losing his angel abilities.

Sure.

• Invulnerability: Angels are immune to traditional attacks thanks to their physiology

Cain shoots lucifer, and lucifer is not impressed by it

Amenadiel is being shot and is not impressed

It is also mentioned many times during the series that the angels are invulnerability

It is indeed mentioned that they are "invulnerable" to everything except for demonic/angelic weapons, and this is demonstrated many times- and even if they do die while "vulnerable" they are merely sent to the afterlife and can travel back.

This is further supported by him being unconcerned with antimatter, and a myriad of other horrible things he shrugs off, and seems distinct from simple high durability in context, so sure.

• Teleportation: They can transport from place to place, seemingly instantaneously[4]

Sure, but I'd point out that this is practically covered by dimensional travel with their wings, and likely also stems from them- I believe in the Lucifer show itself we do see angels often travel almost instantly around the world with their wings, not just between dimensions.

• Resistance to Time Manipulation: It has been shown many times that angels and demons are not affected by time manipulation.

Sure.

• Extrasensory Perception: Angels can see souls

Angels can see souls, as we see in the TV series Lucifer

When Rorry brought Dan back to earth, Lucifer, Rorry, and Amenadiel could see Dan.

Profiles that will receive these abilities; Manny, Lucifer, Amenadiel, Michael, Azrael, Remiel, Uriel

Sure.https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Uriel_(Lucifer_TV_Series)

Now let's move on to the abilities that Lucifer Morningstar has.

• Sound Manipulation: when he returned from heaven, he spoke with a divine voice
• Pain Manipulation: His mere Voice causes mortals to suffer irresistibly

I take issue with both of these. All of the context seems to imply that it's mental suffering, rather than any sort of physical sound thing. I believe this simply ties in with his ability to seemingly induce madness.

• Hellfire Manipulation: he has full control over hell and can therefore control hellfire

Sure.

• Enhanced Senses: Lucifer feels is near without seeing Chloe and makes himself vulnerable

If you watch the scene, you can see Lucifer stubs his foot and gets injured before Chloe gets off the elevator

So even though Chloe hasn't entered the room yet, Lucifer feels her presence and makes himself vulnerable

• Cosmic Awareness: When Constantine, Diggle and Mia came to get help from lucifer, lucifer knew that the multiverse had disappeared and that constantine had come from another universe
• İn hell Ice Manipulation (He said he could freeze hell.)

Sure.

This ability is only in hell

• BFR: He can send demons to hell.
• Body Puppetry: He can control demons.
• Resistance to Electricity Manipulation: Unaffected by Electricity
• Regeneration (Low-Mid):The severed limbs of archangels are regenerated. (Only archangels scale to this.)
• Madness Manipulation: The devil face can drive people crazy.

Sure, but he uses his devil face outside of Hell all the time.

Angels should be at least comparable to average demons like Nero.

This scaling is supported by the fact that Manny, an angel, can randomly destroy the rain in a city and bring it back.

Characters that will scale to this: Manny, Azrael, Remiel, Uriel,

Archangels are next

Archangels should at least scale above than angels like Manny, demons like Mallus, Neron and Sabbac, and wizards like Constantine

While the magic of Constantine, one of the most powerful wizards, is not strong enough to go to purgatory during the crisis, Lucifer, an archangel, does this casually.

Characters that will scale to this: Lucifer, Amenadiel, Michaelhttps://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Michael_Demiurgos_(Lucifer_TV_Series)

I have to disagree. Firstly, the rain feat likely wasn't done by sheer power, but rather by some kind of reality warping.
Secondly, (and this has been discussed and rejected in the past), Lucifer and the crew shouldn't scale to other angels/demons in the Arrowverse.

As mentioned above, a fundamental part of angels is how they self-actualize their powers, which creates a very wide variety in power levels and abilities. Fundamentally, Lucifer, Amenadiel, and Michael simply never showcase anywhere near that level of power, so even if they could theoretically manifest it, we have no solid reason to say their average form has it on a regular basis.

In fact, we have direct counter-evidence to him scaling: see Lucifer being unable to break a steel wall.

 

[ByArrow]

This is extrasensory perception, not clairvoyance.

ByAsura and a few members said it was clairvoyance

Scan? I don't remember this part.

It was a plot point in Lucifer season 6.

Scan? I remember them existing at the beginning of time, but not before it, and disrespecting him since the beginning of time only inherently implies the former, not the latter.

at the beginning of the series, it is said that Lucifer was expelled from heaven "in the beginning" and became the ruler of hell, which means that Lucifer existed before the beginning.

I take issue with both of these. All of the context seems to imply that it's mental suffering, rather than any sort of physical sound thing. I believe this simply ties in with his ability to seemingly induce madness.

The ability page says this can also be done mentally

I have to disagree. Firstly, the rain feat likely wasn't done by sheer power, but rather by some kind of reality warping.
Secondly, (and this has been discussed and rejected in the past), Lucifer and the crew shouldn't scale to other angels/demons in the Arrowverse.

The reason for this was that Hells were thought to be different, and in my messages in the thread, I said that there was no basis for this and that the evidence showed that Hells were the same.

As mentioned above, a fundamental part of angels is how they self-actualize their powers, which creates a very wide variety in power levels and abilities. Fundamentally, Lucifer, Amenadiel, and Michael simply never showcase anywhere near that level of power, so even if they could theoretically manifest it, we have no solid reason to say their average form has it on a regular basis.

Since the Lucifer series was a detective series, there was no situation that required them to use this level of force. Just as there would be no situation requiring Superman to perform a planet-level feat in a Superman series that only deals with farm work.
Also, Lucifer randomly has a Sun destroying feat that is way beyond that. (I know he did this in hell, but this refutes your claim that they never did anything that powerful.)

In fact, we have direct counter-evidence to him scaling: see Lucifer being unable to break a steel wall.

This is an outlier.

 

[FinePoint]

ByAsura and a few members said it was clairvoyance

It seems that by the site's definition it is, my apologies.
I was using the more traditional definition of seeing the future.
Though it seems like the site has clairvoyance fundamentally linked with extrasensory perception.

It was a plot point in Lucifer season 6.

at the beginning of the series, it is said that Lucifer was expelled from heaven "in the beginning" and became the ruler of hell, which means that Lucifer existed before the beginning.

Alright. I can accept that then. I just wanted to make sure.

The ability page says this can also be done mentally

You mean pain manipulation? It still seems like the context suggests his torture is more due to his insanity than an actual mental pain, if that makes sense. I do not have a particular strong opinion on this, though.

The reason for this was that Hells were thought to be different, and in my messages in the thread, I said that there was no basis for this and that the evidence showed that Hells were the same.

Since the Lucifer series was a detective series, there was no situation that required them to use this level of force. Just as there would be no situation requiring Superman to perform a planet-level feat in a Superman series that only deals with farm work.
Also, Lucifer randomly has a Sun destroying feat that is way beyond that. (I know he did this in hell, but this refutes your claim that they never did anything that powerful.)

This is an outlier.

To be an outlier, it would have to be contradicted regularly, but we see none of that in the show.
I don't believe a solid case of demonstrated strength should be dismissed due to the assumption that he scales physically to other manifestations of angels, especially given how we know they vary so much.

So regardless of previous reasons, that would be my current reason.

 

[ByArrow]

To be an outlier, it would have to be contradicted regularly, but we see none of that in the show.
I don't believe a solid case of demonstrated strength should be dismissed due to the assumption that he scales physically to other manifestations of angels, especially given how we know they vary so much.

So regardless of previous reasons, that would be my current reason.

The power required to open a steel door is wall level.
This contrasts with Lucifer getting out of the exploding house without any trouble and Lucifer's other wall level feats
And not to mention it contradicts the other demons and angels in the verse
If you say that this is not outlier, we need to reduce the entire verse to the human level.

 

[ByArrow]

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[DarkDragonMedeus]

FinePoint's recent post makes sense, save I agree Lufifer being unable to break out of the door is PIS.

 

[ByArrow]

FinePoint's recent post makes sense, save I agree Lufifer being unable to break out of the door is PIS.

Just to be sure, you agree with the OP, right?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yes

 

[ByArrow]

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