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A monster fights 2 other monsters (Johan Liebert vs Clover (Undertale yellow))

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  • While team Undertale Yellow is stacked in it's advantages, please remain calm and take breaks from this thread if it's too much for anyone participating. This is so people on both sides (even people advocating for team Undertale Yellow) can remain rational.
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Conditions:
  • Clover's profile is pretty extensive, so forgive me if I miss a factor or two, but...
    • Speed is equalized
    • Battle takes place within a town in Germany
      • Starting distance is between the edge of opposite sides of the town.
      • Johan can freely influence the people within Germany and has prior knowledge of the duo.
    • Genocide Clover is used
      • Flowey is standard equipment, so technically, this is going to be a duo fight anyways with Azzy's Flowey key.
2 psychopathic children:

A psychopathic man:

Incon:
 
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What can Johan do to bypass the massive AP gap?
Johan does have hax and versatility in his SI and intellect. He used a detective's trauma to make the latter off themselves. So it's fair to say Johan could mentally wear down Clover and Flowey and put them into positions where they're cornered.

And considering Johan predicted where Tenma was going to shoot him with precision days before the library fire, and mentally scarred an ordinary child in canon, I'm sure he could find at least a bajillion other ways to indirectly hurt Clover and Flowey.

If you want, I could give examples.
 
Johan does have hax and versatility in his SI and intellect. He used a detective's trauma to make the latter off themselves. So it's fair to say Johan could mentally wear down Clover and Flowey and put them into positions where they're cornered.
But how can he SI when he gets splattered before he has a chance to open his mouth?
And considering Johan predicted where Tenma was going to shoot him with precision days before the library fire,
I guess he could avoid Clover and Flowey for a while, but considering that Flowey can teleport around and create attacks that are impossible to dodge, and Clover can level buildings with giant soul lasers, I feel like they could get him eventually (plus they also have resets to know exactly what Johan will do)
and mentally scarred an ordinary child in canon,
Clover and Flowey are pretty far from ordinary children, this is a genocidal maniac and a flower who can’t feel emotions (except fear that one time but that was Chara who has fear manip)
I'm sure he could find at least a bajillion other ways to indirectly hurt Clover and Flowey. If you want, I could give examples.
Yes pls
 
But how can he SI when he gets splattered before he has a chance to open his mouth?

I guess he could avoid Clover and Flowey for a while, but considering that Flowey can teleport around and create attacks that are impossible to dodge, and Clover can level buildings with giant soul lasers, I feel like they could get him eventually (plus they also have resets to know exactly what Johan will do)

Clover and Flowey are pretty far from ordinary children, this is a genocidal maniac and a flower who can’t feel emotions (except fear that one time but that was Chara who has fear manip)

Yes pls
Do I have to link you to speed equalization and standard battle assumptions? Clover and Flowey's combat speed is lowered to Johan's with the same multiplier to running speed.

And exactly how are they going to counter Johan's social influencing and Intelligence when Johan is capable of knowing both can reset? I started them in a position where they have no line of sight, did you read the match conditions?
 
Both opponents start at the opposite sides of the town, so Flowey has a lot to time to scout the area before having to confront Johan (and possibly Clover) themselves. Flowey is not one to get confrontational, especially with a human with them, and would probably observe the situation and then inform Clover after they RESET or LOAD.

Flowey could also just kill anyone Johan SI's without him or Clover knowing, because why would Johan suspect a talking flower without a soul to be responsible for such things? His world seems pretty realistic, as far as I can tell, and that was one of his reasons for why he lost against a supernatural opponent on the only match on his profile.
 
Do I have to link you to speed equalization and standard battle assumptions? Clover and Flowey's combat speed is lowered to Johan's with the same multiplier to running speed.
I was exaggerating, my point was that if he starts talking he'll get killed before he can say anything meaningful. A gun tends to be faster than speaking.
And exactly how are they going to counter Johan's social influencing and Intelligence when Johan is capable of knowing both can reset?
By flattening him the second he gets close. How is he gonna socially influence them if he's nowhere near them? Also, him knowing they can reset doesn't change the fact that they will still know exactly what he'll do in given situations after resetting.
I started them in a position where they have no line of sight, did you read the match conditions?
One of my main points was that they'd be able to locate him decently easily, did you read my message?
 
I was exaggerating, my point was that if he starts talking he'll get killed before he can say anything meaningful. A gun tends to be faster than speaking.

By flattening him the second he gets close. How is he gonna socially influence them if he's nowhere near them? Also, him knowing they can reset doesn't change the fact that they will still know exactly what he'll do in given situations after resetting.

One of my main points was that they'd be able to locate him decently easily, did you read my message?
Oh, looks like I didn't absorb your point in one of your previous messages, sorry.

For SI: Johan has disguises, and he's influenced someone anonymously with letters before (meaning he can always indirectly communicate with him). Since Clover is violent here, his presence will be made very easily to Johan within the first couple of resets.

Monster psychology is still alike to regular people. Like explain to me how Johan wouldn't pick up another "human" flower psychopath is interfering with his plans. Johan would adapt accordingly to the fact he's dealing with time travelers, and the moment he sees Clover's face, he'll plan to imprint psych-ops memories onto his opponents since it's a more permanent option for progress.

And when would they know to reset in the first place if Johan doesn't make his presence easily known? Inspector Lunge couldn't detect a thing when he investigated one of the rooms Johan was at.
 
Examples of indirectly hurting the duo:
  • Psychological warfare
  • Technically using hax that exists in the real world through his criminal connections like
    • Drugs (depressants that could make a person fall asleep (Canon in Johan's Canon since there are alcohol present), maddening drugs, etc)
    • Smoke inhalation from fire
    • Non-canon stuff, but would technically be available to Johan like Acid, and more practically, electricity if he could incap them and tackle Flowey first.
 
What I don’t get about this is how Johan is actually supposed to take either of them out. Both of them are tier 8 and can take a lot of damage, so I doubt a 9-C gun will do much to them, they’ve handled way worse than piercing damage before.

Only thing I can really think of is maybe turning them against each other, but clover will take flowey out pretty handily from what I know about UTY, and he’ll still be looking for Johan.
 
Drugs would require Joahn to actually get close to both of them tho, and how would you realistically make him inhale smoke? There's no way for Joahn to trap him via his AP and ability to reset
 
I don't think any of the IRL "hax" can really do much against these two. Practically none of it works on Flowey, and even if something does, he can just burrow underground to escape. And if Clover's in any danger either Flowey or Clover themselves would just LOAD back to an earlier SAVE.

Psychological warfare is gonna be tricky here. Johan doesn’t know anything about them and can’t really dig up information, so he’ll have to figure things out as he goes.
But Ig hypothetically it might work on Clover, everything they do is for "Justice" and all, so maybe Johan could exploit that? They still very much have a "shoot first" mentality in the Genocide route and all of Martlet's attempts at talking them out of it don't really work.

Flowey’s a completely different story. He literally can't feel compassion, so Johan’s usual approach (like with the detective) isn’t going to work. Flowey's outlook on the world would also make him see Johan as just another "NPC" and not take anything he says seriously. Remember, this is the same guy who only wanted the six human SOULs so he could wipe out everyone on the surface because he was bored. Reasoning with him is off the table unless we’re talking about very specific circumstances.

So at best, Johan will convince Clover to give up or something of that nature, and this ends up happening.
It wouldn't matter much that Clover and Flowey would fight after, since Johan would be already dead :P
 
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Monster psychology is still alike to regular people. Like explain to me how Johan wouldn't pick up another "human" flower psychopath is interfering with his plans.
By the fact that sentient flowers that talk are not normal in his world? Also Flowey's situation is far from a "regular human", as he's a monster child forced into a violent plan by their best friend Chara, died because they refused to cooperate at the end, came back as a flower with the ability to SAVE & LOAD and a lack of empathy, essentially viewing the world as a game. Flowey would analyse Johan's actions until he's reduced to just another NPC because he never let's his own presense known when another human has control over the timeline (which would be Clover in this case, as they're in their Geno Key).

And if Clover ever loses control over the timeline, Flowey would just take control and restore Clover back without any memories and probably take it more seriously or just deal with Johan directly.
 
I don't think any of the IRL "hax" can really do much against these two. Practically none of it works on Flowey, and even if something does, he can just burrow underground to escape. And if Clover's in any danger either Flowey or Clover themselves would just LOAD back to an earlier SAVE.

Psychological warfare is gonna be tricky here. Johan doesn’t know anything about them and can’t really dig up information, so he’ll have to figure things out as he goes.
But hypothetically, it might work on Clover, everything they do is for "Justice" and all, so maybe Johan could exploit that? They still very much have a "shoot first" mentality in the Genocide route and all of Martlet's attempts at talking them out of it don't really work.

Flowey’s a completely different story. He literally can't feel compassion, so Johan’s usual approach (like with the detective) isn’t going to work. Flowey's outlook on the world would also make him see Johan as just another "NPC" and not take anything he says seriously. Remember, this is the same guy who only wanted the six human SOULs so he could wipe out everyone on the surface because he was bored. Reasoning with him is off the table unless we’re talking about very specific circumstances.

So at best, Johan will convince Clover to give up or something of that nature, and this ends up happening.
It wouldn't matter much that Clover and Flowey would fight after, since Johan would be already dead :P
And since when does all this make the duo immune to Johan specifically? The Hinata vs Johan only said more supernatural things lessened the effectiveness of Johan's abilities, it never said it rendered the duo immune. And why are people here trying to "say" that Marlet's "SI" would be on the level of Johan's? People are going to be ironic here you're all "I never said that"

So? Drugs have memory impacting properties (ex: alcohol causes memory loss, and I could find plenty more substances that cause memory loss). And no, I'm not advocating for dura negation alone, that's missing/miscommunicating the point for all of you. I'm advocating for more creative ways to target the duo's causality. Like what's the point of saying save and load if you can't remember what happened?

Johan is on the intelligence of flowey in his own way. He's not going to barge in front of Clover once he knows Clover is violent. He can analyze him from a distance and ya know, recognize he needs to target their minds first before deciding if he should dispose them or not. That should take care of the Information problem.

And why would he dispose Clover first if he indirectly knows Flowey has a similar power to him?
 
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Drugs have memory impacting prproperties
The thing is Johan would need to administer them, Clover isn't just gonna randomly get himself drunk for thr hell of it. Literally anyone who Johan could SI into helping would get utterly destroyed by the duo the moment they tried to approach them. So drugs is easily a no go, even then, I got put to sleep via drugs for a tooth extraction, literally went directly into my bloodstream and it took a bit of time to kick in, the moment Clover gets injected with something he can easily load a save, sense it's literally thought based.


Johan is on the intelligence of flowey in his own way. He's not going to barge in front of Clover once he knows Clover is violent. He can analyze him from a distance and ya know, recognize he needs to target their minds first before deciding if he should dispose them or not. That should take care of the Information problem.
How would he target their minds tho? He has absolutely nothing on them, so far the only usage of SI you've showcase for Johan was him utilzing someone's trauma, which won't work since he doesn't know who Clover even is and the trauma he could try and use on Flowey the latter doesn't give a damn about anymore
 
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The thing is Johan would need to administer them, Clover isn't just gonna randomly get himself drunk for thr hell of it. Literally anyone who Johan could SI into helping would get utterly destroyed by the duo the moment they tried to approach them. So drugs is easily a no go, even then, I got put to sleep via drugs for a tooth extraction, literally went directly into my bloodstream and it took a bit of time to kick in, the moment Clover gets injected with something he can easily load a save, sense it's literally thought based.



How would he target their minds tho? He has absolutely nothing on them, so far the only usage of SI you've showcase for Johan was him utilzing someone's trauma, which won't work since he doesn't know who Clover even is and the trauma he could try and use on Flowey the latter doesn't give a damn about anymore
1: Johan already knows of Clover's violence. While I never thought I'd say this, he's knowledgeable enough to literally outsmart people and get in their head much like Dr. Tenma. He's mentally ahead of Clover by miles, so I'd prefer seeing something on the Azzy/save and load front.

2: Are you exaggerating? He literally upscales from manipulation and Intelligence from when he was younger. Examples:
  • Manipulating tens of people without saves at a young age isn't a feat the duo could do with saves. That's literally on Johan's profile, and they weren't stated to all have trauma directly.
  • He has as much control over Germany as Flowey could by a home field advantage and having an underground bank. Not relevant here unless you count the people involved that aren't traumatized.
  • He literally casually outplayed regular people like his sister and Tenma throughout the series.
And that's not mentioning Flowey technically is psychopathic but not emotionless. Flowey was able to cry like a child to his parents upon his birth as a flower and he even gets mad if you disobey him in the OG game. Johan's knowledge of psychology doesn't stop at body language or gender (stuff greatly impacted by supernatural stuff so far), it extends to behaviors of people too.

If he wants to, he could traumatize Clover since this isn't just a close range match from the start, but that seems hard for his capacities so far.
 
1: Johan already knows of Clover's violence. While I never thought I'd say this, he's knowledgeable enough to literally outsmart people and get in their head much like Dr. Tenma. He's mentally ahead of Clover by miles, so I'd prefer seeing something on the Azzy/save and load front.

2: Are you exaggerating? He literally upscales from manipulation and Intelligence from when he was younger. Examples:
  • Manipulating tens of people without saves at a young age isn't a feat the duo could do with saves. That's literally on Johan's profile, and they weren't stated to all have trauma directly.
  • He has as much control over Germany as Flowey could by a home field advantage and having an underground bank. Not relevant here unless you count the people involved that aren't traumatized.
  • He literally casually outplayed regular people like his sister and Tenma throughout the series.
And that's not mentioning Flowey technically is psychopathic but not emotionless. Flowey was able to cry like a child to his parents upon his birth as a flower and he even gets mad if you disobey him in the OG game. Johan's knowledge of psychology doesn't stop at body language or gender (stuff greatly impacted by supernatural stuff so far), it extends to behaviors of people too.

If he wants to, he could traumatize Clover since this isn't just a close range match from the start, but that seems hard for his capacities so far.
It'd be pretty hard to outplay flowey and clover mentally anyway, considering that johan won't have a way of knowing about SAVE & LOAD, let alone remembering it. Flowey and Clover also don't necessarily have to manipulate anyone lol, they just gotta take johan out which is easy if they know what he's gonna do before he does it. Unless johan has acausality then he won't remember anything, while flowey and clover will.

It's kind of hard to just traumatize someone with supernatural willpower anyway even if johan got the chance. In the vast majority of timelines clover has also canonically died many times (Which he remembers) and hasn't been evidently affected mentally by the pain or anything either.

Considering the actual nature of floweys own Genius intelligence it's not that hard for him to figure out who/where johan is, or at the very least what he's going to do. Essentially, he'll know a whole lot about him if clover does enough resets which is a huge advantage since johan doesn't have prior knowledge of them either.
To compare, it's like having total precognition of everything your opponent will do in the future. Your opponent may be very intelligent, but if you know all actions they will take then it becomes essentially irrelevant as a factor, because no matter what they do, you have plenty of time to work around it.
 
Johan already knows of Clover's violence. While I never thought I'd say this, he's knowledgeable enough to literally outsmart people and get in their head much like Dr. Tenma. He's mentally ahead of Clover by miles, so I'd prefer seeing something on the Azzy/save and load front.
Being mentally ahead won't do him any good if he can't do anything to Clover, at best he'll be able to hide away for a while while the kid just guns down anyone he tries to send.
Manipulating tens of people without saves at a young age isn't a feat the duo could do with saves. That's literally on Johan's profile, and they weren't stated to all have trauma directly.
Completely irrelevant, the duo doesn't need to influence anyone, were those people by chance a a young child that went on and killed off an entire race to uphold their form of justice? If not, yeah i don't see how Johan is gonna convince Clover to stop trying to kill him.
He literally casually outplayed regular people like his sister and Tenma throughout the series.
Yeah, but that's mental games, Clover isn't here for a talk, he's very much so shoot first ask never in the genocide run, really i don't even see how Johan is meant to mentally mess with him
And that's not mentioning Flowey technically is psychopathic but not emotionless. Flowey was able to cry like a child to his parents upon his birth as a flower and he even gets mad if you disobey him in the OG game
That was literally his first ever time being flowey, nowadays he doesn't care at all about killing anyone in his way, heck he even killed himself before. Getting mad wouldn't really help Johan at all sense Flowey usually use an undodgeable attack by that point and that's game over.
If he wants to, he could traumatize Clover
Literally how, Clover went on and slaughtered an entire race to uphold their form of justice, they saw numerous people die before their very eye and didn't even bat an eye, so tell me how is Johan supposed to pull off something possibly more traumatzing than being responsible of a genocide
 
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Both opponents don't know each other, and Flowey isn't knowledgable in Germany from the start. He's relying on Clover first or himself to gain precog. I presume we're on the basis that they'll reset once they're in-trouble (which probability wise from the start, isn't going to be ultra 100% in awareness). They're not going to know who Johan really is 100% once the duo meets him since he's just as elusive as Flowey, otherwise the manga/anime of monster would get boring pretty quickly as we would know everything about him from the start.

Why is everyone here thinking or treating the duo like they would be in their late stages of resets? I get UT Yellow is pretty stacked hard. Johan at the start of the resets would just be cautious and analyze a Bloodlusted Clover without the duo realizing, and at that point, he would indirectly know Flowey exists through Clover. Exactly how would they know of Johan's ability to "find the root and foundation of an individual's personality within moments of meeting them" from the start?

Johan is smart enough to take down organizations and should in-turn, be able to orchestrate mass murders anyways. Germany is huge in comparison to the Underground. Clover is technically a child anyways and hasn't resisted a single well-placed word from someone like Johan (a person higher than Marlet), I don't think it's out of the possibility that Johan could manipulate Clover from there into killing Flowey, and then haxxing them into something like incapacitation or getting knocked out. Johan could even use the hypocrisy of killing others for justice and the missing children as leverage in his manipulation skills.
  • And as DontTalk stated in the Hinata v. Johan thread, he could just stop someone in their tracks with a single well-placed word.
  • Question, another thread awhile ago had a user make a point that knocking out Frisk would be a wincon. But another user said Frisk could still reset while unconscious. Do we have evidence that either are the case? I have no idea if this could work.
  • I should mention for some reason, characters doing out-of-character wincons are allowed. I could find high disagreement with this standard, but apparently this means that Johan technically has a wincon of SI-ing Clover to give up after killing Flowey? I'm pretty sure this is a weird standard NGL.
 
This should address everything.

Johan and RESETs​

The crux of the issue is that you're assuming that Johan can analyze and adapt effectively across RESETs.
Clover and Flowey retain their memories throughout RESETs. Johan does not. Every time a RESET occurs, Johan would revert to his first timeline counterpart, with no knowledge of the events that transpired post-RESET. His strategy and analysis would reset along with him, forcing him to start from scratch every time.
Johan will unknowingly repeat the same actions he did in the first run, while the duo would use the knowledge they gain from each RESET to perfectly counter him.

SI-ing Clover​

As previously said, Clover isn't really your ordinary kid, or "psychopath," not only are they supernaturally determined, but they’ve slaughtered an entire race, endured death countless times and the madness that is Flowey's boss fight. What “single word” could possibly shake someone so desensitized?
Plus to even attempt this, Johan needs intimate knowledge on Clover’s motivations, past and personality, which he simply doesn’t have.

Even IF Johan somehow successfully plants doubt in Clover’s mind, Flowey would almost certainly intervene and "steal the kill."
A similar thing happens in the Aborted Genocide route. After forgiving Axis, Clover isn't as hellbent on vengeance anymore and as such hesitates when it comes to killing Martlet, which Martlet leverages to plead with Clover to put an end to the death, and come live a "happy, violence-free childhood" by staying with her.
Clover isn't opposed to that, so Flowey just ends up impaling Martlet with a vine before they can leave.

One could then say,
Why not take care of Flowey first then?
The main problem with that is that he really can't.
Flowey is virtually a god in Johan's world. A magic flower that’s bulletproof, can crush buildings with a thought, and burrow underground to escape any of his "hax"
Johan has no means to target Flowey psychologically either. Flowey rarely exposes himself to anyone but Clover, so even if Johan tried to study Flowey, he'd have nothing to go off. Not that knowing Flowey’s motivations would change anything, since Flowey is again utterly devoid of compassion. In fact, Frisk who has supernatural SI could only manage to talk Flowey down after the latter absorbed their friends' SOULs and literally received their love, and even then it was a drawn out battle.
 

Johan and RESETs​

The crux of the issue is that you're assuming that Johan can analyze and adapt effectively across RESETs.
Clover and Flowey retain their memories throughout RESETs. Johan does not. Every time a RESET occurs, Johan would revert to his first timeline counterpart, with no knowledge of the events that transpired post-RESET. His strategy and analysis would reset along with him, forcing him to start from scratch every time.
Johan will unknowingly repeat the same actions he did in the first run, while the duo would use the knowledge they gain from each RESET to perfectly counter him.
And what does he do in the first timeline? Know straight away he's dealing with time travelers, directly or indirectly. Their causality is why I bring up SI, Johan's actions to them mentally are permanent.

And when does either of the duo RESET in-character? I haven't played Undertale Yellow, but for the OG game, Flowey has only likely done resets to see what happens to satisfy his boredom, and in his current state he would only do that when there's trouble. And his motivation is to win the fight by killing, not by boredom.

SI-ing Clover​

As previously said, Clover isn't really your ordinary kid, or "psychopath," not only are they supernaturally determined, but they’ve slaughtered an entire race, endured death countless times and the madness that is Flowey's boss fight. What “single word” could possibly shake someone so desensitized?
Plus to even attempt this, Johan needs intimate knowledge on Clover’s motivations, past and personality, which he simply doesn’t have.

Even IF Johan somehow successfully plants doubt in Clover’s mind, Flowey would almost certainly intervene and "steal the kill."
A similar thing happens in the Aborted Genocide route. After forgiving Axis, Clover isn't as hellbent on vengeance anymore and as such hesitates when it comes to killing Martlet, which Martlet leverages to plead with Clover to put an end to the death, and come live a "happy, violence-free childhood" by staying with her.
Clover isn't opposed to that, so Flowey just ends up impaling Martlet with a vine before they can leave.
And how supernaturally determined are they going to be to persuasion that wouldn't go against their beliefs? Johan's murdered countless couples and can always go to manipulation that doesn't go against a person's mental resistance (bias, emotions, etc).

I've established Johan is capable of knowing Flowey exists. And I've linked in one of the scans that Johan can not only SI from a distance, but also analyze people psychologically to their intimate past from a distance. Through indirect means and learning Azzy's behavior, he can predict if Flowey's stalking in the background and adapt accordingly and heavily to time travelers.
The main problem with that is that he really can't.
Flowey is virtually a god in Johan's world. A magic flower that’s bulletproof, can crush buildings with a thought, and burrow underground to escape any of his "hax"
Johan has no means to target Flowey psychologically either. Flowey rarely exposes himself to anyone but Clover, so even if Johan tried to study Flowey, he'd have nothing to go off. Not that knowing Flowey’s motivations would change anything, since Flowey is again utterly devoid of compassion. In fact, Frisk who has supernatural SI could only manage to talk Flowey down after the latter absorbed their friends' SOULs and literally received their love, and even then it was a drawn out battle.
And since you've accepted that Johan can interact with Clover (or not, depending on your intended words), and I've established SI and info analysis from a distance. Not only that, Volt if I'm correct claims that Flowey's only examples of emotion won't help Johan (which isn't my intended point, but I'll be direct). If a Psychopath has at least a single emotion, that means any sufficient manipulator can target the said emotions since that's pretty much why people IRL can get manipulated easily. If you don't feel empathy, that doesn't mean you can't be manipulated by other emotions you have that would get you irrational.
 
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  • While team Undertale Yellow is stacked in it's advantages, please remain calm and take breaks from this thread if it's too much for anyone participating. This is so people on both sides (even people advocating for team Undertale Yellow) can remain rational.
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If anyone is wondering, I decided to put this disclaimer up and 2nd spoiler up since I want everyone (even those vouching for UTY) can remain rational.

And trust me, I know how it feels to debate against someone I'm agitated at. I just don't want people to make the same mistake I did and let emotions cloud their judgement.
 
How does Johan do this when he doesn’t have type 1 acausality and has never encountered time travellers before?
I don't care how many times all us not understand what Johan can do. I'll tell it a billion times if I have to.

Johan is capable of psychologically analyzing people by meeting them indirectly rather than face to face. He's done this to other people, if anything, he can do it to the duo.

He's a smart monster himself and will figure out the limitation that "oh, their memories are more permanent? Why not exploit that?" Given a lotta probabilities he can think of himself.

Not only that, I can also say the duo hasn't met and beaten a manipulator as smart as Johan in a psychological and wit battle. Not to mention, why would they prefer to reset when it's easier to save and load?
 
Johan is capable of psychologically analyzing people by meeting them indirectly rather than face to face. He's done this to other people, if anything, he can do it to the duo.
You're saying that like he can do that in literally ANY scenario, despite the lack of knowledge in such topics and dealing with supernatural forces. Toriel & Asoge have lived for millenia alongside humans and had a human child in their care for long enough to remember their unique quirks like filling cups "the most efficient way", yet they are only aware of the possibility of time travel after witnessing (and being told) by the 6 human souls that fell into the underground before Frisk. Asriel himself was also unaware until they became a flower.

You could maybe argue he could this because Sans could, but that guy has actual scientific knowledge on timelines, can read expressions to count how many times a human has died/if the human has killed him and could actually get close to the duo without risking instant death (+ he's at least Genius and more likely to be extraoadinary compared to Johan's simple Genius rating)
He's a smart monster himself and will figure out the limitation that "oh, their memories are more permanent? Why not exploit that?" Given a lotta probabilities he can think of himself.
Once again, this wouldn't significantly effect Clover and CERTAINLY not Flowey.

Clover has literally been told that they've died a hundred times by Flowey AFTER dying to Flowey and they still refused to submit and give up their SOUL. They've resisted until Flowey gave up and reset because he realized Clover was "too determined" and that was when they were just LV 1 with a single kill (the only requirement to get to Neutral) and Geno Clover has enough determination to surpass Flowey's SAVE & LOAD, meaning if Johan even got the duo to fight eachother that'd mean he'd still have to deal Clover who can get pretty violent at pretty much anything that gets in his way, is immensely strong and is unlikely to want anything get near their face.

Flowey has reset the world and done ever possible thing that he reduced it to just "sets of numbers" and "lines of dialogue" with the only obstacle he couldn't get by with his knowledge being Asgore, in fact that's the only monster he couldn't get past because otherwise he'd have the human SOULs already. Flowey could get past Sans eventually and only found his brother Papyrus the most entertaining, with him stating that it took very long for him to get bored of Papyrus. The only instance of Flowey "giving up" is at the end of both game's geno route, where he pleads with Chara (who he realized would kill him if he got in the way) and where he mocks Clover by saying the underground will be their grave before dying, both instances involve him losing the power to SAVE & LOAD which Johan doesn't have. Flowey literally has the psychology of a Player, if Johan tries to SI him he's more likely to get his or someone's SOUL snatched alongside Clover's like in any neutral ending or the beginning of UNDERTALE.

Retaining memory is more of an advantage for both of them, since they're going to learn how Johan behaves through trial and error. Either that, or they just brute force through everything out of frustration, they are both above 8-C by a significant margin and Flowey has a significant range advantage with his vines after all.
Not only that, I can also say the duo hasn't met and beaten a manipulator as smart as Johan in a psychological and wit battle. Not to mention, why would they prefer to reset when it's easier to save and load?
Flowey has, his name is Sans the Skeleton. This also acts as an answer to the reset thing, cause Flowey does that if Sans knows anything about him. If Sans and Johan actually have comparable psychological wit in your mind, Flowey would reset if given the chance and Clover has (somehow) been taken out.
 
And when does either of the duo RESET in-character? I haven't played Undertale Yellow, but for the OG game, Flowey has only likely done resets to see what happens to satisfy his boredom, and in his current state he would only do that when there's trouble. And his motivation is to win the fight by killing, not by boredom.
Basically each time Clover reaches a "dead end," Flowey resets and steers them off that path. Got Ninjaed rip

Also thinking about it, Clover's memories getting wiped by RESETs kind of shuts down the whole "permanent mental damage" argument.
Since, as mentioned earlier, Clover’s the one doing all the heavy lifting while Flowey stays on the sidelines, so they'd be the one subject to Johan's brainwashing.
While Flowey will really only step in to encourage Clover, LOAD the SAVE whenever they're in danger, or stab Johan if Clover hesitates.
 
You're saying that like he can do that in literally ANY scenario, despite the lack of knowledge in such topics and dealing with supernatural forces. Toriel & Asoge have lived for millenia alongside humans and had a human child in their care for long enough to remember their unique quirks like filling cups "the most efficient way", yet they are only aware of the possibility of time travel after witnessing (and being told) by the 6 human souls that fell into the underground before Frisk. Asriel himself was also unaware until they became a flower.

You could maybe argue he could this because Sans could, but that guy has actual scientific knowledge on timelines, can read expressions to count how many times a human has died/if the human has killed him and could actually get close to the duo without risking instant death (+ he's at least Genius and more likely to be extraoadinary compared to Johan's simple Genius rating)

Once again, this wouldn't significantly effect Clover and CERTAINLY not Flowey.

Clover has literally been told that they've died a hundred times by Flowey AFTER dying to Flowey and they still refused to submit and give up their SOUL. They've resisted until Flowey gave up and reset because he realized Clover was "too determined" and that was when they were just LV 1 with a single kill (the only requirement to get to Neutral) and Geno Clover has enough determination to surpass Flowey's SAVE & LOAD, meaning if Johan even got the duo to fight eachother that'd mean he'd still have to deal Clover who can get pretty violent at pretty much anything that gets in his way, is immensely strong and is unlikely to want anything get near their face.

Flowey has reset the world and done ever possible thing that he reduced it to just "sets of numbers" and "lines of dialogue" with the only obstacle he couldn't get by with his knowledge being Asgore, in fact that's the only monster he couldn't get past because otherwise he'd have the human SOULs already. Flowey could get past Sans eventually and only found his brother Papyrus the most entertaining, with him stating that it took very long for him to get bored of Papyrus. The only instance of Flowey "giving up" is at the end of both game's geno route, where he pleads with Chara (who he realized would kill him if he got in the way) and where he mocks Clover by saying the underground will be their grave before dying, both instances involve him losing the power to SAVE & LOAD which Johan doesn't have. Flowey literally has the psychology of a Player, if Johan tries to SI him he's more likely to get his or someone's SOUL snatched alongside Clover's like in any neutral ending or the beginning of UNDERTALE.

Retaining memory is more of an advantage for both of them, since they're going to learn how Johan behaves through trial and error. Either that, or they just brute force through everything out of frustration, they are both above 8-C by a significant margin and Flowey has a significant range advantage with his vines after all.

Flowey has, his name is Sans the Skeleton. This also acts as an answer to the reset thing, cause Flowey does that if Sans knows anything about him. If Sans and Johan actually have comparable psychological wit in your mind, Flowey would reset if given the chance and Clover has (somehow) been taken out.
1: That's not what I'm trying to say; Johan can't do stuff on timelines directly, he can indirectly through the duo's acausality.

2: Sans doesn't have the manipulative, machiavellian, or social intelligence of Johan. not to mention if Flowey has a mind comparable to us, that means he can be SIed and predicted

3: And ask your self this, what would the duo have to go through first to consider a reset?

4: I asked if Flowey could in character reset, not that if he's capable of doing it. Small difference. Eden_Warlock took care of this front for you.
Basically each time Clover reaches a "dead end," Flowey resets and steers them off that path. Got Ninjaed rip

Also thinking about it, Clover's memories getting wiped by RESETs kind of shuts down the whole "permanent mental damage" argument.
Since, as mentioned earlier, Clover’s the one doing all the heavy lifting while Flowey stays on the sidelines, so they'd be the one subject to Johan's brainwashing.
While Flowey will really only step in to encourage Clover, LOAD the SAVE whenever they're in danger, or stab Johan if Clover hesitates.
Johan would know that Flowey exists through Clover. If anything, he would plan ahead for Flowey and make the duo fight each other first. And if the analysis goes on to Flowey for long enough, Johan can exploit Flowey's death trauma and memories with Chara.

Not to mention, see point 3 I made for Diamond_D. The duo won't ever reset if there's no motive to in the first place.
 
That's not what I'm trying to say; Johan can't do stuff on timelines directly, he can indirectly through the duo's acausality.
I never said Johan would do stuff directed at the timelines, the point was it would too much of a supernatural ability for him to consider and play around, especially when Flowey and Clover have the advantage of being too determined to submit to Johan SI and being able to remember it through LOADs (and resets for Flowey)
Sans doesn't have the manipulative, machiavellian, or social intelligence of Johan. not to mention if Flowey has a mind comparable to us, that means he can be SIed and predicted
Sans has more fitting knowledge to "adapt" to timelines, yet doesn't despite that because he can't remember when those abilities are used. Flowey may be misled initially, but he's going to keep trying things that aren't expected (like Clover intentionally hitting bullets during a dodging tutorial and Frisk avoiding pellets during Flowey's trick tutorial) and Johan won't be able to predict because those with knowledge have shown they can't.
And ask your self this, what would the duo have to go through first to consider a reset?
They don't have to reset if they don't have to, it can literally work as a failsafe if (somehow) they softlock themselves in one of their saves, bringing them right back to the beginning of the fight. It's also an instant "no you don't get to keep the progress you made against us" since one of them (or partially both, considering Eden's post) will always remember what happened in between all that.
I asked if Flowey could in character reset, not that if he's capable of doing it. Small difference. Eden_Warlock took care of this front for you.
That's literally what I answered. Why are you claiming I answered a completely different question?
Johan would know that Flowey exists through Clover. If anything, he would plan ahead for Flowey and make the duo fight each other first. And if the analysis goes on to Flowey for long enough, Johan can exploit Flowey's death trauma and memories with Chara.
He'd never know about Flowey through Clover, Flowey literally disguises himself as save points that are only visible to Clover whenever people are around and can hide out of sight and range by burrowing underground. Even if he did know and did what you said effectively, he'd still have to deal with one of them (that or they refuse to fight eachother after enough resets) and they're basically impossible for Johan to deal with physically even if he managed to SI the entire town.

Also he wouldn't know Flowey's past, he never told it to Clover and he would certainly avoid interaction with others while he's at Clover's side. Even then, Flowey literally has higher determination than a neutral route Clover, who is already immensily persistent as established earlier, and has come back from when he tried to remove himself from existence because he thought he couldn't live in a world without Chara or love, just out of a primal desire to continue living even he couldn't overcome. Plus Johan would have to be in earshot of Flowey to do that, where he risks being stabbed by kilometer long vines and getting obliterated by pellets just for a chance for Flowey to become surprised.
 
I never said Johan would do stuff directed at the timelines, the point was it would too much of a supernatural ability for him to consider and play around, especially when Flowey and Clover have the advantage of being too determined to submit to Johan SI and being able to remember it through LOADs (and resets for Flowey)

Sans has more fitting knowledge to "adapt" to timelines, yet doesn't despite that because he can't remember when those abilities are used. Flowey may be misled initially, but he's going to keep trying things that aren't expected (like Clover intentionally hitting bullets during a dodging tutorial and Frisk avoiding pellets during Flowey's trick tutorial) and Johan won't be able to predict because those with knowledge have shown they can't.

They don't have to reset if they don't have to, it can literally work as a failsafe if (somehow) they softlock themselves in one of their saves, bringing them right back to the beginning of the fight. It's also an instant "no you don't get to keep the progress you made against us" since one of them (or partially both, considering Eden's post) will always remember what happened in between all that.

That's literally what I answered. Why are you claiming I answered a completely different question?

He'd never know about Flowey through Clover, Flowey literally disguises himself as save points that are only visible to Clover whenever people are around and can hide out of sight and range by burrowing underground. Even if he did know and did what you said effectively, he'd still have to deal with one of them (that or they refuse to fight eachother after enough resets) and they're basically impossible for Johan to deal with physically even if he managed to SI the entire town.

Also he wouldn't know Flowey's past, he never told it to Clover and he would certainly avoid interaction with others while he's at Clover's side. Even then, Flowey literally has higher determination than a neutral route Clover, who is already immensily persistent as established earlier, and has come back from when he tried to remove himself from existence because he thought he couldn't live in a world without Chara or love, just out of a primal desire to continue living even he couldn't overcome. Plus Johan would have to be in earshot of Flowey to do that, where he risks being stabbed by kilometer long vines and getting obliterated by pellets just for a chance for Flowey to become surprised.
1: Why are you under the implication Sans and others with such knowledge is comparable to Johan? Johan literally gets very intimate knowledge from people just by meeting them (and in this case that would include what the duo did in each timeline more precisely). Sans' feats are more limited than Johan's reach to the duo's time travel (exaggeration, but wanted to make a point). If Sans did mental analysis feats like knowing Frisk's childhood prior to the underground or extremely small details from each save and load, maybe I'd be convinced.

2: What? I know I only played through Undertale once, but I've most definitely watched some playthroughs of Undertale Yellow. It's in-character for Flowey to pop up to Clover first and talk to him like the latter's a child before each save. If anything, Clover remembering that would open up Johan knowing another psychopath is trying to oof him.

3: Johan's established to gather intimate knowledge on people when meeting them. He would know at least that either or both are capable of reset-based time travel. And I've already established it's in-character for Johan to use indirect communication like letters. Johan doesn't have to get in earshot of Flowey to do any SI.
 
1: Why are you under the implication Sans and others with such knowledge is comparable to Johan? Johan literally gets very intimate knowledge from people just by meeting them (and in this case that would include what the duo did in each timeline more precisely). Sans' feats are more limited than Johan's reach to the duo's time travel (exaggeration, but wanted to make a point). If Sans did mental analysis feats like knowing Frisk's childhood prior to the underground or extremely small details from each save and load, maybe I'd be convinced.
Johan "intimately knowing" of the duo’s backstories or timeline activities just by meeting them feels like a bit of an overreach, doesn't Johan operate in a semi-realistic setting? Like I'm sure he's able to read body language, tone, and patterns to make educated guesses about someone’s emotions, motivations and such, but Flowey’s backstory and the timey wimey stuff aren't at all apparent (The former is virtually impossible to deduce through observation alone) so unless they openly talk about these things (I see no reason why they would), he’d have no way of knowing.

As for sans, he is indeed leagues more perceptive than Johan. We're talking about the guy who can accurately deduce the exact number of times Frisk has died, if he successfully tricked and dunked them in a past timeline, and even whether Frisk has already killed him but has reset the timeline just to fight him once more, all of which is done by merely reading their expression. Blud can even tell if Frisk LOAD-ed back and killed someone on purpose to see what he'd say just from the look on their eyes.
This level of deduction is beyond anything any human can really do. Literally just by looking at Frisk, he somehow knows what they have done in 10 different timelines. With 10 different sans-es. And was always 100% right.

Even if Johan could glean details about Flowey and Clover's methods, it'd be a massive leap to assume he’d reach Sans's level, especially since Sans's knowledge is also based on hard data, as he actively monitors and runs reports on timeline activity, something Johan has no access to.
2: What? I know I only played through Undertale once, but I've most definitely watched some playthroughs of Undertale Yellow. It's in-character for Flowey to pop up to Clover first and talk to him like the latter's a child before each save. If anything, Clover remembering that would open up Johan knowing another psychopath is trying to oof him.
Flowey doesn't appear when interacting with save points when either Martlet or Ceroba are following Clover. Lad also hides away whenever Clover is approached by someone.
3: And I've already established it's in-character for Johan to use indirect communication like letters. Johan doesn't have to get in earshot of Flowey to do any SI.
Flowey would likely laugh it off or dismiss it entirely. Without any physical or intellectual leverage (Which he couldn’t possibly get even if he got a glimpse of Flowey interacting with Clover, since Flowey reveals practically nothing about himself in those) over Flowey, Johan’s words would be utterly meaningless to him.

And if he does so to Clover and Clover actually gives up, Flowey would consider it a "dead end," RESET to wipe Clover's memories and wouldn’t even let Clover read them.
 
Johan "intimately knowing" of the duo’s backstories or timeline activities just by meeting them feels like a bit of an overreach, doesn't Johan operate in a semi-realistic setting? Like I'm sure he's able to read body language, tone, and patterns to make educated guesses about someone’s emotions, motivations and such, but Flowey’s backstory and the timey wimey stuff aren't at all apparent (The former is virtually impossible to deduce through observation alone) so unless they openly talk about these things (I see no reason why they would), he’d have no way of knowing.

As for sans, he is indeed leagues more perceptive than Johan. We're talking about the guy who can accurately deduce the exact number of times Frisk has died, if he successfully tricked and dunked them in a past timeline, and even whether Frisk has already killed him but has reset the timeline just to fight him once more, all of which is done by merely reading their expression. Blud can even tell if Frisk LOAD-ed back and killed someone on purpose to see what he'd say just from the look on their eyes.
What? In many of the scans I've linked, Johan is at least implied either to have known about a killer's past abuse from their mother, and in killing a detective by SI, knew about their precise regrets. His profile even states he can analyze people to the root of their personality. How is that below timeline level info analysis? Sans doesn't know an ounce of Frisk's childhood.
Flowey doesn't appear when interacting with save points when either Martlet or Ceroba are following Clover. Lad also hides away whenever Clover is approached by someone.
Johan analyzes people to their root of their personality, not the root of if they appear during a boss fight.
Flowey would likely laugh it off or dismiss it entirely. Without any physical or intellectual leverage (Which he couldn’t possibly get even if he got a glimpse of Flowey interacting with Clover, since Flowey reveals practically nothing about himself in those) over Flowey, Johan’s words would be utterly meaningless to him.

And if he does so to Clover and Clover actually gives up, Flowey would consider it a "dead end," RESET to wipe Clover's memories and wouldn’t even let Clover read them.
Johan would know the root of Flowey's personality just by interacting with him indirectly. Explain to me how Johan's words would be meaningless by the time Azzy would start to consider a reset.
 
What? In many of the scans I've linked, Johan is at least implied either to have known about a killer's past abuse from their mother, and in killing a detective by SI, knew about their precise regrets. His profile even states he can analyze people to the root of their personality. How is that below timeline level info analysis? Sans doesn't know an ounce of Frisk's childhood.
I mean, Johan didn’t deduce Richard’s past regrets out of thin air. He extensively researched Stefan's case, only knew about Richard’s daughter because he overheard their phone call and Richard literally told him that he regrets it ("What I did is unforgiveable, drunk or not").

Johan can't really research anything about Flowey. Even in UT, besides Frisk and maaaybe Toriel, no one even knows that Flowey is Asriel. The only records that exist about Flowey are in the True Lab, and even they only reveal that Flowey was supposed to be a vessel for the human SOULs. Not that Johan could even access these logs.
Johan analyzes people to their root of their personality, not the root of if they appear during a boss fight.
You misunderstood. Flowey doesn't show himself when anyone is around, I don't think any of the monsters in the UTY cast even know he exists.
Even sans thought that Flowey was just an Echo Flower some monster was using to prank Papyrus.
Explain to me how Johan's words would be meaningless by the time Azzy would start to consider a reset.
The RESET thing was about if Johan makes Clover give up, since Flowey would consider that a "dead end." Plus, how would he even deliver letters to Flowey lol
 
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