Flash High 1-C upgrade

[TiltedFN]

Yeah, so basically, since the speed force got upgraded to High 1-C, here, flash should also scale since he merged with all forces, including the speed force and got access to their full powers. So he should have at High 1-C AP, durability, idk about striking strength since its unknown on the speed force profile. But it would make sense if he did, since barry actually punches, and he merged with the speed force and all the other forces. He also reset a timeline, so yeah, not sure how big a timeline is in CW, so like low 2-C, likely high 1-C if you find it too contentious.

 

[Baabasaplar95]

Yes, Barry merged with all the Forces and we clearly see the Forces entering Barry. CW Flash needs a serious upgrade but we can start from there. I agree with High 1-C Flash with All Focre Key

 

[ByAsura]

They just empowered him as an avatar. He doesn't scale to the entirety of the Forces.

Barry didn't reset the timeline. He reverted time, which is why Thawne's power destroyed him.

 

[Baabasaplar95]

They just empowered him as an avatar. He doesn't scale to the entirety of the Forces.

Barry didn't reset the timeline. He reverted time, which is why Thawne's power destroyed him.

When they choose someone to be their Avatar, they do not enter that person's Body. But in the "All Force" scene, 4 Force gets inside Barry's body.

 

[ByAsura]

Those are just manifestations in the physical world, and we even see the Nora manifestation separate from the Speed Force at some times.

When The Speed Force actually enters the real world (like at the end of Season 3), it threatens to destroy the universe.

 

[AigerTheKing]

Yeah, so basically, since the speed force got upgraded to High 1-C, here, flash should also scale since he merged with all forces, including the speed force and got access to their full powers. So he should have at High 1-C AP, durability, idk about striking strength since its unknown on the speed force profile. But it would make sense if he did, since barry actually punches, and he merged with the speed force and all the other forces. He also reset a timeline, so yeah, not sure how big a timeline is in CW, so like low 2-C, likely high 1-C if you find it too contentious.

Agree

 

[Deleted member 40129]

With Asura FRA

 

[Baabasaplar95]

They just empowered him as an avatar. He doesn't scale to the entirety of the Forces.

Barry didn't reset the timeline. He reverted time, which is why Thawne's power destroyed him.

They were different compared to Thawne, Episode 7x11 is an example of this. They all followed the Speed Force, focusing their power and giving off "just a little bit of energy". At 8x20, direct forces entered Flash's body, enough to stop the tornado, giving him the chance to use the powers fully. We saw it at the last focus point. Since Thawne only received some power from the forces in 8x20, he got extra power even before making the explosion, but despite that strengthening, there was still nothing in the flash anyway. Wonder Woman, Aquaman, which you know as ap dura exchange, is getting dura despite the difference. Ap = Durability, Wonder Woman and Aquaman also take scales from Superman, although they have many differences between them. It doesn't scale completely. flash that scales to all, weaker than Thawne since he can fight it but should scale to the same tier as it.

 

[ByAsura]

I have no idea what this point is supposed to mean, sorry.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

I agree with OP. In episode 11 of season 7, the 4 Forces, not even fully entering his body, but just giving him a boost, made him powerful enough to overpower a tornado that was going to destroy everything in existence according to Cisco. Flash after taking in all of those forces, as they quite literally enter his body, should be far superior to even that. So I think High 1-C All Forces Flash makes sense

 

[ByAsura]

The tornado would've only destroyed everything in existence once it reached a very specific critical mass.

The Forces were gradually returning to their isotopic states (explicitly becoming more powerful in the process), and would have snapped back like a rubber band upon reaching their critical mass, creating an effect similar to the big bang but in reverse.

What Barry explicitly stopped was called a 'reaction', not the universe-destroying effect.

For comparison, this is like moving a fuel tanker out of the way so an incendiary round can't ignite it, rather than overpowering the fuel tanker explosion itself.

 

[Baabasaplar95]

The tornado would've only destroyed everything in existence once it reached a very specific critical mass.

The Forces were gradually returning to their isotopic states (explicitly becoming more powerful in the process), and would have snapped back like a rubber band upon reaching their critical mass, creating an effect similar to the big bang but in reverse.

What Barry explicitly stopped was called a 'reaction', not the universe-destroying effect.

For comparison, this is like moving a fuel tanker out of the way so an incendiary round can't ignite it, rather than overpowering the fuel tanker explosion itself.

Yes, Tornado was getting stronger over time, but in about 3 minutes. In the last scene where they showed the Flash, it was shown that there were 25 seconds left, after that, approximately 50 seconds pass until the Forces power-up part. Even if the sequence ran a few seconds late in time and we couldn't scale it completely, the Tornado would have collected at least 90% of the required power and would destroy a Universe. In this case, even this much power was strengthened by the Forces to stop the Tornado, which was strengthened by the Forces at a very high level, so it definitely increased the level.

And another important issue; In episode 8x20, the forces entered Barry in energy forms like in the scene in S7 when Barry goes back in time to kill them. More than a simple energy boost, it's a greater threat than the Tornado created by Thawne. Otherwise, the Forces would just add energy, and even though Thawne had asked for more energy before the final explosion, and had become stronger, Barry was still superior to him, or at least equal.

 

[ByAsura]

Yes, Tornado was getting stronger over time, but in about 3 minutes.

Doesn't matter. The tornado was going to reach a threshold by gaining enough mass to have the effect.

Flash didn't stop the effect/part of the effect, he stopped the reaction that would have caused the effect. The tornado wasn't at like 90% of its theoretical power, it hadn't even entered that league yet.

In this case, even this much power was strengthened by the Forces to stop the Tornado, which was strengthened by the Forces at a very high level, so it definitely increased the level.

Assuming I'm interpreting your argument right, this supports what I just said.

A) they greatly strengthened the tornado while it was already almost complete, and it still didn't destroy the universe on its own, and B) the universal destruction was going to be achieved by defaulting to their elemental forms, so the fact that they could strengthen the potency of the tornado like this suggests it's completely separate to the big crunch effect.

More than a simple energy boost, it's a greater threat than the Tornado

Sure. It helps that base Season 8 Barry could stomp base Season 7 Barry.

Barry was still superior to him, or at least equal.

Nitpicking here, but he just rewound him and phased through his Power Ranger abilities. Unless Barry got an unseen boost, Thawne was certainly stronger at that point via scaling alone.

 

[Baabasaplar95]

Doesn't matter. The tornado was going to reach a threshold by gaining enough mass to have the effect.

Flash didn't stop the effect/part of the effect, he stopped the reaction that would have caused the effect. The tornado wasn't at like 90% of its theoretical power, it hadn't even entered that league yet.

Assuming I'm interpreting your argument right, this supports what I just said.

A) they greatly strengthened the tornado while it was already almost complete, and it still didn't destroy the universe on its own, and B) the universal destruction was going to be achieved by defaulting to their elemental forms, so the fact that they could strengthen the potency of the tornado like this suggests it's completely separate to the big crunch effect.

Sure. It helps that base Season 8 Barry could stomp base Season 7 Barry.

Nitpicking here, but he just rewound him and phased through his Power Ranger abilities. Unless Barry got an unseen boost, Thawne was certainly stronger at that point via scaling alone.

When it got stronger for 3 minutes, you also confirmed that it was a tornado with a strength of 80% - 90% if we include the last 25 seconds that appeared.
It is not correct to say that he has not yet entered that level, because it is certain that he has already accumulated the majority of his power in 25 seconds of the 3 minutes.
I couldn't understand what you said about effect or reaction. Normally it is called Effect = Reaction. They strengthened the tornado, but it was going to destroy everything in existence within 3 minutes. It should be scaled to Low 2-C level. At full power, Barry stopped it with the power of the forces while the tornado had most of its power. I repeat, we understand from the remaining time that the tornado has most of its power.
Explanation for this; Let me do it, it was also stated in S9 that Thawne was overloaded there, so he took more energy than normal and created an explosion. While rewinding the explosion at the moment the explosion was fired, it did not affect Barry and caused Thawne to pass through a direct attack from his empowered form. In a clear moment of empowerment, he focused his own positive forces against Thawne and gathered the power, Thawne had the power of the negative forces and did not rewind Thawne in time. If he had the strength, he could still fight against Barry's focused state.
And let me tell you, the positive forces gave their power directly to Thawne when he first received the buff, so in the 1v1 form, Thawne was higher than the tornado in 7x11, both of them deserve at least a level like Low 2-C or above. While Dceu Superman has been shown to be superior, the likes of Aquaman and Wonder Woman are on par with him.
While the difference in power between them is quite obvious, they can also be in the same tier, so even if you take Thawne as superior, they should be in the same tier in terms of tier.

 

[ByAsura]

I couldn't understand what you said about effect or reaction. Normally it is called Effect = Reaction.

The Forces were reversing their own creation with a reaction, stripping themselves down to their ionic/elemental states.

Once they'd reversed their creation event (which caused them to gain mass and power), the effect would be achieved.

I repeat, we understand from the remaining time that the tornado has most of its power.

I repeat, the tornado was not the thing that was going to destroy the universe. It was the fact that the tornado would accumulate enough mass to unwind itself and cause the equivalent of the big crunch.

pass through a direct attack from his empowered form

Which isn't AP.

Thawne had the power of the negative forces and did not rewind Thawne in time.

Thawne himself was not reversed when Barry rewound time, just the energy wave he produced. You even see him panic.

If he had the strength, he could still fight against Barry's focused state.

He wanted the strength to one-shot Barry outright because he wasn't even able to hit him. This makes no sense.

While the difference in power between them is quite obvious, they can also be in the same tier, so even if you take Thawne as superior, they should be in the same tier in terms of tier.

If you're saying they're in the same tier all throughout the fight, fair enough. Idc about that.

 

[ByAsura]

Ok, to have a productive discussion, I'll lay out my current view on the topic.

I'm willing to, at the very most, accept a possibly rating for universal destruction scaling until more staff give their input.

I 100% don't agree with them scaling to the entirety of the Forces.

 

[Baabasaplar95]

The Forces were reversing their own creation with a reaction, stripping themselves down to their ionic/elemental states.

Once they'd reversed their creation event (which caused them to gain mass and power), the effect would be achieved.

I repeat, the tornado was not the thing that was going to destroy the universe. It was the fact that the tornado would accumulate enough mass to unwind itself and cause the equivalent of the big crunch.

Which isn't AP.

Thawne himself was not reversed when Barry rewound time, just the energy wave he produced. You even see him panic.

He wanted the strength to one-shot Barry outright because he wasn't even able to hit him. This makes no sense.

If you're saying they're in the same tier all throughout the fight, fair enough. Idc about that.

The thing that will destroy the universe will be when the tornado bounces when it reaches enough power, I already know this, it was the de forces that brought it to that level, the reaction situation is equal to the effect.
Since it was the forces that created the hurricane, it is not strange that they knew how much energy was needed to destroy it. The energy it produced without being strengthened by the forces was not enough, and it still must be scaled to a high level.

Didn't I call this Ap? I think you misunderstood, you said there was a big power difference between the two, that's why I wrote Thawne.

I already said this, is it related to my writing style because you say what I say?
Although Thawne had the time to react, he could not do anything against Barry's focused form. We do not have anything that can be said to be superior to Thawne. Moreover, while Thawne only received energy support, Barry received direct powers, so it is quite normal for him to be able to fight him.

I don't understand why you say it doesn't make sense, because you don't seem to have rejected me here either. As you said, Thawne could not fight properly with Barry until the power-up before the explosion. Even against that state of Thawne, do not forget that the forces entered the body directly in the form of energy when they were recreated.
If Thawne, as the people who power the tornado, were weaker, they would be content with just giving energy.
You admitted that Thawne could be superior to the tornado. If you don't take 7x11 Barr as universe level, you should take 8x20 as at least universe level.

You don't have a complete idea for this, it's pointless to refuse to scale because I re-did the explanations and in addition, it was already said that the timeline is reset before the forces leave Barry's body, so at least it deserves to be scaled in all forces.

 

[Baabasaplar95]

Ok, to have a productive discussion, I'll lay out my current view on the topic.

I'm willing to, at the very most, accept a possibly rating for universal destruction scaling until more staff give their input.

I 100% don't agree with them scaling to the entirety of the Forces.

thank you for that

 

[ByArrow]

I disagree

Flash did not merge with all forces. He was empowered by them.

And it wasn't the Flash who resetting the timeline, it was the universe itself.

Barry: It's the universe resetting itself.

 

[LordVader30]

I agree

 

[ByAsura]

it was the de forces that brought it to that level

No, it was the forces reverting themselves that would've achieved that level.

They did not empower the tornado to that degree, they were using it to disperse themselves, which would've created the big crunch.

the reaction situation is equal to the effect

You've said this a bunch, but you've never actually talked me through an explanation.

How does the tornado scale to a blatantly separate feat achieved only in the aftermath of the tornado? Give me one reason besides 'they empowered the tornado' and 'the tornado was becoming heavier/more powerful'.

you said there was a big power difference between the two

I mean it's not a feat.

Although Thawne had the time to react, he could not do anything against Barry's focused form.

I'm just not going to bother responding at this point. Literally your entire argument is 'Thawne couldn't stop Barry or hit him, so Barry is superior.'

That's really not how feats or power scaling work.

Didn't I call this Ap? I think you misunderstood, you said there was a big power difference between the two, that's why I wrote Thawne.

No, what I'm saying is that none of what Barry did against Thawne in his focused state is an AP feat.

I don't understand why you say it doesn't make sense, because you don't seem to have rejected me here either.

What is this referring to, my guy?

You admitted that Thawne could be superior to the tornado. If you don't take 7x11 Barr as universe level, you should take 8x20 as at least universe level.

Firstly, this argument relies on your logic of 7x11 Barry's level of power being augmented to Universe level in the first place. So it makes 0 difference.

Secondly, this blatantly goes against logical scaling.

The effect would've been achieved by The Forces (in full, not just empowered or some other bs) destroying themselves. How could The Forces augment Season 8x20 Flash to a significantly higher level of power than their own dispersal?

You don't have a complete idea for this

No, I blatantly have a complete idea.

A) either possibly Universe level, or B) leave the ratings as they are.

it's pointless to refuse to scale because I re-did the explanations and in addition,

Bro straight up said "It's pointless to disagree with me"

so at least it deserves to be scaled in all forces.

Literally nobody can scale to even an infinitieth of The Forces in this kind of case.

The Speed Force alone is a fundamental aspect of the multiverse, and can't fully manifest on one level of existence. As we saw with Season 7, even destroying it on one level won't get rid of it. If all four of the positive Forces manifested like that within Barry, the universe would be beyond knackered.

 

[ByArrow]

This is the third thread trying to scale Flash to the Forces. And I'm sure we'll see more of these in the future. So I think we should have a discussion rule for this.

 

[Baabasaplar95]

No, it was the forces reverting themselves that would've achieved that level.

They did not empower the tornado to that degree, they were using it to disperse themselves, which would've created the big crunch.

You've said this a bunch, but you've never actually talked me through an explanation.

How does the tornado scale to a blatantly separate feat achieved only in the aftermath of the tornado? Give me one reason besides 'they empowered the tornado' and 'the tornado was becoming heavier/more powerful'.

I mean it's not a feat.

I'm just not going to bother responding at this point. Literally your entire argument is 'Thawne couldn't stop Barry or hit him, so Barry is superior.'

That's really not how feats or power scaling work.

No, what I'm saying is that none of what Barry did against Thawne in his focused state is an AP feat.

What is this referring to, my guy?

Firstly, this argument relies on your logic of 7x11 Barry's level of power being augmented to Universe level in the first place. So it makes 0 difference.

Secondly, this blatantly goes against logical scaling.

The effect would've been achieved by The Forces (in full, not just empowered or some other bs) destroying themselves. How could The Forces augment Season 8x20 Flash to a significantly higher level of power than their own dispersal?

No, I blatantly have a complete idea.

A) either possibly Universe level, or B) leave the ratings as they are.

Bro straight up said "It's pointless to disagree with me"

Literally nobody can scale to even an infinitieth of The Forces in this kind of case.

The Speed Force alone is a fundamental aspect of the multiverse, and can't fully manifest on one level of existence. As we saw with Season 7, even destroying it on one level won't get rid of it. If all four of the positive Forces manifested like that within Barry, the universe would be beyond knackered.

I'm not offering you anything like scaling the Flash in the 7x11 section to Low 2-C or scaling the Flash in the 8x20 section to High 1-C. I'm already talking about Universe Level for Flash in 8x20 and I thought you could say Accept, am I wrong? It was obvious that Thawne was stronger than in his 7x11 state because he was loaded with a large amount of power and Forces had to enter the body, even against his original state. Positive and Negative Forces do not experience power differences in the normal situation. One is negative and one is positive and that's it. Thawne was only outperformed by 3 Forces overall. We can see this on stage. You admitted that Thawne is stronger than the Tornado, and if he can get the "8x20" forms level increase in those equipped with Forces from his equal gradual scaling with Thawne, it is "at least at Low 2-C" level. I repeat, I am not saying Low 2-C for 7x11 or High 1-C for 8x20.

 

[ByArrow]

And it wasn't the Flash who resetting the timeline, it was the universe itself.

Barry: It's the universe resetting itself.

 

[ByAsura]

I thought you could say Accept, am I wrong?

I said it's ok as a possibly rating for 7x11 Flash and 8x20 Thawne and Flash.

Overall, there's contradictory scaling and pretty much no reason to actually scale the tornado itself to the destruction of the universe, so I feel I'm being quite generous even accepting it as a possibility.

Edit: Also, I realise I've been saying 3-A this whole time. I meant Low 2-C, since that's what you get for a standard Big Bang.

It was obvious that Thawne was stronger than in his 7x11 state because he was loaded with a large amount of power and Forces had to enter the body, even against his original state.

Yes, I've constantly said I agree with 8x20 Barry being stronger than his 7x11 self, but that doesn't make him stronger than The Forces getting destroyed on a universal scale.

Positive and Negative Forces do not experience power differences in the normal situation.

Actually, they do all the time because The Forces have to manifest on different levels of existence.

I repeat, I am not saying Low 2-C for 7x11 or High 1-C for 8x20.

Yeah, I get what you're saying, I just disagree with it and think a possibly rating is far better in this situation.