Kirby Semi-Downgrade

[Arceus0x]

So I have an issue with Kirby's tier. The tier he has is a full on 2-C when he used to have it as a possibly. I kinda want to bring it back to an extent. Why? Simple, I don't think there's enough evidence for a blatant scaling to 2-C because Magolor's feat is way too vague to be blatant, though it is good enough to stay.

2-C FEAT IS TOO VAGUE

Firstly, is the Magolor 2-C feat legitimate? It could be.
In here is an interview that Eficiente placed in his blog. Eficiente interprets the line "there are some elements that are revealed after clearing the story that challenge the continuity of time as a narrative" as almost definitive proof that the destruction we see in the dimensional rift areas are something that we see Magolor cause in the future.
Eficiente does say "Unfortunately, that's all the information we're given. It isn't stated in a bland way that the portals led to the future or something. This means that saying that the portals lead to the future when Magolor got defeated is technically an assumption, however, this is the only assumption that makes any sense." and does provide thoughts on why it is the only reasonable explanation here but I find some issues with this whole thing.

First off Eficiente says that "we can't say that Another Dimension does this on its own at random because other games don't portray it that way, and even then this is proven to be "something bad that needs to be fixed", because Kirby & co. fix it by defeating Sphere Doomers".
The issue with this counter is that one, he never provides evidence for why other games don't portray it that way when they mostly do, and just because it is something bad wouldn't mean it is natural. Earthquakes are natural, Supernovas are natural, the potential Big Crunch or Big Freeze are natural. For all we know this could be a natural event.

Second off, there is the issue of the fact that the spaces are confirmed to be "closing" with the only thing remaining being the area with the doomers. Additionally, the walls do no damage. This leads me to believe this is a natural thing like a big crunch, a space closing in a hole in it. Perhaps it pulsates and that's why it opens and closes. This is very different from outright destruction and sort of feels weird for a wave that was meant to destroy everything. Basically, it is like a bubble being closed in and there is not enough clear indication that magolor did it.

Now there's the next bit, why I think Magolor, perhaps, might have not caused it and it could still be a natural event.
Here is the ending sequence of KRtDLD. As we can see what Magolor caused is the shattering of the entire space they were in. THEN the wave comes in and starts swallowing everything up. It also comes from a different direction unlike the destruction caused by Magolor, it comes from behind while the epicenter of the shattering of the universe seems to be around the part where Magolor was. This is weird as it wouldn't make sense for the wave to come from behind.

So as a TL;DR, the whole 2-C feat thing is a theory. It is a solid theory, but it is too theoretical to be a tier that isn't "possibly"

HOW WOULD WE SCALE THIS NOW?

Well, my proposal is to scale post RTDL Kirby to 3-A, possibly 2-C.
Why 3-A and not anything else? Well, we know the different inner rifts and such are universe sized as they are referred to as "skies", something that Efi has done well to explain in the blog that I linked, not to mention the rifts inside AD that lead to several universes as explained in this cosmology blog. This means that the area where Kirby fought Magolor, the one that got obliterated in the end, only leaving a void behind, had to be a universe. This is consistent with the fact that in the original game Magolor could warp the entire area using his black hole and Magolor implies that a stronger version of his black hole (at that point Magolor was weaker than his Crowned self) could absorb a dimension. I believe this is a good tier to have as a certain point since at least it is relatively consistetn. The explanation would be "Shattered an entire dimension, leaving nothing but void. The different dimensions inside of Another Dimension are heavily implied to be universes due to being called "skies" similarly to how other universes are called in the series. Magolor's black hole could twist the area around him and it is implied that his black hole could absorb a universe".

UPGRADING THE 2-C RATING

Eficiente believes that the 4 dimensions in Magolor epilogue are not really separate universes and are interconnected. This is because they seem to be interconnected in the stage select screen and later in the credits.
I have an issue with this.
First off, stage select screens should mostly not be taken seriously in Kirby. If they are taken seriously, we will have funny things like Kirby sized planets, Castle-sized Kirby and worlds that need to be opened up with doors that seemingly lead into trees only to send you into a mountain range. There are cases where it is reasonable to take them seriously (like trying to figure out planet sizes by comparing the sizes of the planets in the pause screens which are generally close to each other in size) but here it is clearly not meant to be taken seriously. Why?
Well let's start with the fact that this place has conviniently placed portals that lead everywhere.
Then let's look at the fact that the stage doors are...what's that? Interdimensional portals? Portals that have 100% of the time lead to a different universe and not to just another part of the same universe?
Then there's the fact that the fragments he collects are in different skies, aka, in different universes and are quite literally called interdimensional stages.
Finally, the final nail in the coffin, is the fact that the credits contradict the stage select screen.
Yes, the credits show that there are different portals or black holes or whatever in the different universes, while in the stage select screen there is one of those portals that transitions colors every time you go into a different area.

So to sum it all up, the evidence about them sharing the same space is based on a stage select screen, which is notoriously inaccurate, and credits, that aren't meant to be taken literally as there's literally paintings of later events flying around n shit. Meanwhile we have direct confirmation that the stages are interdimensional, different skies, and are accessed by interdimensional rifts that have ALWAYS lead to other dimensions consistently.

Additionally there is even MORE evidence against them sharing a space.
1. This would be weirdly inconsistent not only with the general portrayal of every other dimension in the game, but also with the official concept diagrams of Another Dimension which generally show separate inter-dimensional rift areas.
2. There are dimension walls in the areas. Yes, the same ones that are presumed to be caused by Magolor's crown explosion. If these universes are sharing spaces, why don't we see anything happen in the stage select screen, which is a hub between these dimensions. This would either mean that they are a very local event and thus ruining the 2-C argument or they are happening within different dimensions and the stage select screen is just a hub used to travel to these disconnected universes.

What does this mean? Since there are dimensional walls there it means Magolor's attack, assuming it is his attack, did happen and affected the 4 dimensions we see. This would ugrade the 2-C feat from 15-16 universes as currently assumed and make it 19-20 universes.

CONCLUSION

Everyone post-RTDL should scale to 3-A, possibly 2-C with the latter tier scaling to 19-20 universes.
There should also be a multiplier for 3-A since Kirby could fight VT who could create 4 Master Crowns.

 

[y3p_owo]

I agree

 

[Arceus0x]

Bump

 

[Arceus0x]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

@Eficiente @CrimsonStarFallen @Starter_Pack @DarkDragonMedeus @SamanPatou

Your evaluations would be appreciated here.

 

[Eficiente]

After reviewing this thread, I'll say that you're confused about the topic. This is a fair considering one could use a graphic to keep up with everything going on in the feat. Look:

Eficiente interprets the line "there are some elements that are revealed after clearing the story that challenge the continuity of time as a narrative" as almost definitive proof that the destruction we see in the dimensional rift areas are something that we see Magolor cause in the future.

No, it also matters what he says next; "and since there more than one passage of time, custumers are free to imagine how that would change things" He takes for granted how there are more than 1 passage of time despite the fact that the games never state so directly. This is in continuation to the part of the quote you grabbed, "there are some elements that are revealed after clearing the story": No much happens after clearing the story. Nothing that would "challenge the continuity of time as a narrative" directly. So we have the following:

• objectively "there more than one passage of time" here,
• those may or may not change things previously seen, the wording doesn't portray that objectively,
• and objectively "there are some elements that are revealed after clearing the story that challenge the continuity of time as a narrative"

You can either propose the latter to refer to the time travel I said, or you can ignore it and pretend like there isn't any contradiction going on here. To be fair, in a more sloppy verse ignoring what the creators say like that would be a solid option, but this is Kirby. Half of the lore and worldbuilding is delivered like this in posts or controlled interviews.

First off Eficiente says that "we can't say that Another Dimension does this on its own at random because other games don't portray it that way, and even then this is proven to be "something bad that needs to be fixed", because Kirby & co. fix it by defeating Sphere Doomers".

The issue with this counter is that one, he never provides evidence for why other games don't portray it that way when they mostly do

, and just because it is something bad wouldn't mean it is natural. Earthquakes are natural, Supernovas are natural, the potential Big Crunch or Big Freeze are natural. For all we know this could be a natural event.

I don't need to prove why other games don't have Anather Dimension being destroyed when there is only 1 story (1 game and its remake) where this happens. That's would be like asking proof of why Earth (or whatever) isn't being destroyed in any story of a series just bc it is being destroyed in 1 of its stories, after claiming as reason as why that happens in that 1 story. The other stories will clearly more on from the topic and not talk about it bc it's not happening anymore. If it was the other way around (Another Dimension naturally being destroyed), then yes, other games should talk about it. This is notably confused thing to say as evidence for your disagreement. It's like trivia to it.

More to it, think it logically, what takes the least amount of speculation:

• Part of a multiverse is being destroyed after defeating a reality-warping destroyer with infinite power, one thing lead to another.
• Or
• Part of a multiverse is being destroyed, the multiverse must do that naturally on its own sometimes. The whole thing (Another Dimension) does that, beyond just what we see in this story. In all the other stories & games where this doesn't happen, it was just coincidence. Also all the beings living in Another Dimension, they can all randomly die if their reality crashes that day. Pretty stupid to live there willing, that goes for the Sphere Doomers w/ Energy Spheres stolen and those in alt. versions of Halcandra. Everyone else in Another Dimension doesn't seem to mind or be aware of their potential doom.

It's attribute destruction to the end result of a big battle over a massive assumption with much room for that to not be the case, many improbabilities, and counterintuitive/nightmarish worldbuildingthe most insane worldbuilding ever.

• (Notes:
  • On "a massive assumption": Yes, I do say with self-awareness that assumptions are technically made from my part, since all other option are contradicted. I can confidently say that it's not the same.
  • On "counterintuitive worldbuilding": Yes, I do say with self-awareness that Kirby is a ***** & a half when it comes to complex worldbuilding. But that more so comes from the delivery of it, most of it is pretty reasonable all things considered. And the things that are crazy are crazy from their very execution, most likely as the goal in and of itself. I can confidently say that, again, this is not the same.)

It's a no brainer (Well, the topic is complex as f*ck to understand. But once understood, it's a nobrainer).

, and just because it is something bad wouldn't mean it is natural. Earthquakes are natural, Supernovas are natural, the potential Big Crunch or Big Freeze are natural. For all we know this could be a natural event.

This one's covered above but, to remove some points here; we know why Earthquakes, Supernovas, the potential Big Crunch or Big Freeze happen. But this would be a massive assumption. Think about this: Even if I didn't have all the evidence that I have, what you say here would still have a massive assumption with much room for that to not be the case, many improbabilities, and counterintuitive/nightmarish worldbuilding.

Second off, there is the issue of the fact that the spaces are confirmed to be "closing" with the only thing remaining being the area with the doomers.

You say this as if it was evidence of your case, when it's not. Look at this:

• The translation can also say that the space "disappears", I went with closing bc it's the same and assumes less at the end of the day.
  • Even if it just said "closing," that works perfectly on my stance.
  • For this to be evidence to you, the spaces would need to be "closing" w/o being destroyed, otherwise you say this for no reason. But we know for sure that this is not the case as AD is collapsing, only 1 space remains by the time we get there, and he other translations of the wording.

You said the first thing in your mind while being fully confident of how it plays in your favor, but didn't think too much about it.

Additionally, the walls do no damage. This leads me to believe this is a natural thing like a big crunch, a space closing in a hole in it. Perhaps it pulsates and that's why it opens and closes. This is very different from outright destruction and sort of feels weird for a wave that was meant to destroy everything. Basically, it is like a bubble being closed in and there is not enough clear indication that magolor did it.

You're ignoring information in the blog at this point. The walls do no damage but kill you by crushing you against another way, therefore this is deadly for everyone being chased by them. (Bit of a dogmatic argument, but the whole point of those areas, with the tension music and semi-blocked path, is that you need to outrun the wall "or else." [you die]) It's also stated to be a/the collapse in Another Dimension chasing you, the collapse being the walls themselves. If it was a pulse, Another Dimension would remake itself in the parts it was collapsing itself, and reviving everyone who died. And the wording of the walls "closing" can also be translated as space "disappearing".

Btw, it makes sense that the walls do no damage to you. I'm not as strong as titanium, but I would take no damage from a titanium wall chasing me at speeds far slower than my own. And I will be crushed if that crushes me against another wall. One could argue that the walls should damage you, and that they only don't for gameplay reasons, I don't care, it doesn't matter at the end of the day.

Now there's the next bit, why I think Magolor, perhaps, might have not caused it and it could still be a natural event.

Here is the ending sequence of KRtDLD. As we can see what Magolor caused is the shattering of the entire space they were in. THEN the wave comes in and starts swallowing everything up. It also comes from a different direction unlike the destruction caused by Magolor, it comes from behind while the epicenter of the shattering of the universe seems to be around the part where Magolor was. This is weird as it wouldn't make sense for the wave to come from behind.

This is mostly covered above. I said most of what I need to here; it's speculation that it works the way you say. The destruction is pretty uneven, hence everything. Even that shattering starts away from Kirby & co. What's being destroted is far bigger than smaller spaces like that, after all. I wouldn't say that it's weird that the walls start from their "right," that said, when Landia is taking them away, bigger walls were chasing them from the place Magolor was, and for a longer amount of time. So there is that.

 

[Eficiente]

HOW WOULD WE SCALE THIS NOW?

Well, my proposal is to scale post RTDL Kirby to 3-A, possibly 2-C.
Why 3-A and not anything else? Well, we know the different inner rifts and such are universe sized as they are referred to as "skies", something that Efi has done well to explain in the blog that I linked, not to mention the rifts inside AD that lead to several universes as explained in this cosmology blog. This means that the area where Kirby fought Magolor, the one that got obliterated in the end, only leaving a void behind, had to be a universe. This is consistent with the fact that in the original game Magolor could warp the entire area using his black hole and Magolor implies that a stronger version of his black hole (at that point Magolor was weaker than his Crowned self) could absorb a dimension. I believe this is a good tier to have as a certain point since at least it is relatively consistetn. The explanation would be "Shattered an entire dimension, leaving nothing but void. The different dimensions inside of Another Dimension are heavily implied to be universes due to being called "skies" similarly to how other universes are called in the series. Magolor's black hole could twist the area around him and it is implied that his black hole could absorb a universe".

Wow, hey, hold on. Should you be correct on the other thing (that I disagreed with above), I wouldn't think for a second that destroying a universe that destroys itself at random is solid 3-A. That thing may as well be made of paper. I'm being poetic of course, 3-A is based on our universe, which won't collapse at random. Imagine attacking and destroying a house, and attacking and destroying a house that could collapse at random. Not the same. One could say "Well we have to assume X, which means the feat is 3-A" but no, no we don't have to based on the logic around the topic. Break it down.

This is consistent with the fact that in the original game Magolor could warp the entire area using his black hole

That's only interstellar in range, it goes as far as the eye can see. Saying it was the universe is speculation. I don't care that they do this in other verses, it's nonsense. Magolor's 2-C and that attack is still only interstellar in range.

Magolor implies that a stronger version of his black hole (at that point Magolor was weaker than his Crowned self) could absorb a dimension

When Magolor gets MAX at every ability, he's stronger than Magolor Soul. Getting each MAX ability gets him to say only 1 comment. Therefore, this can easily be a stronger Magolor. If anything, I would think that to be likely given how "Black Hole" is the last ability listed there, if players can level them up in any order.

UPGRADING THE 2-C RATING

Eficiente believes that the 4 dimensions in Magolor epilogue are not really separate universes and are interconnected. This is because they seem to be interconnected in the stage select screen and later in the credits.
I have an issue with this.

That's one reason. The other (I think it's in the blog, I need to update that thing) is how broken that place is. Not physical things, that doesn't matter. I mean space itself, it's way off from other dimensions in AD, the ones we know for sure are universes. Also, a dead Magolor and dead Master Crown are right at home there. Based on that one factor alone, are they dead universes? Are they special realities for the dead? Pick either of those last reasons, 1 alone betrays our trust to consider those universe-sized realities.

First off, stage select screens should mostly not be taken seriously in Kirby. If they are taken seriously, we will have funny things like Kirby sized planets, Castle-sized Kirby and worlds that need to be opened up with doors that seemingly lead into trees only to send you into a mountain range. There are cases where it is reasonable to take them seriously (like trying to figure out planet sizes by comparing the sizes of the planets in the pause screens which are generally close to each other in size) but here it is clearly not meant to be taken seriously.

That's a good line of thinking. We even have a statement from a world map in Star Allies telling us how sizes there are whatever many times.

In this case, we also have to consider how inside the levels themselves, the dimensions changes colors. We're talking about gameplay stuff, not non-canon game map stuff:

• There are "boss"-like sections where many minor enemies come to attack you and that part of the dimension changes color. What's going on there?
• The actual bosses are able to move from dimension to dimension to bring their master stuff. (The Doomers may be the anciant Doomers that had this power in-lore. The other 3 guys would just so happen to have this power. Or they simply walked around.)
• Then in the last level getting shot by cannons makes the sky change, when we know that each color is its own dimension here.

I just remembered the latter point bullet right now as I'm making this comment. Before, I believed it was debatable how the visuals showed the dimensions being physically connected. Now I'm certain, these dimensions are 100% physically connected.

Then there's the fact that the fragments he collects are in different skies, aka, in different universes and are quite literally called interdimensional stages.
Finally, the final nail in the coffin, is the fact that the credits contradict the stage select screen.

• The Jap. language lacks plurals or singulars. I put "skies" there but it could very well be "sky."
• Even then, a reality can be a universe and be smaller than our universe. It's just common practice to assume that to not be the case, as long as nothing goes against that idea.
• We are in AD, the space between dimensions, called interdimensional space over and over. It makes all the sense in the world to call those stages interdimensional stages. An alien living in an Earth city may participate in a race one day and call it being in an "Earth race."

Yes, the credits show that there are different portals or black holes or whatever in the different universes, while in the stage select screen there is one of those portals that transitions colors every time you go into a different area.

The fact that it's uneven like that may or may not be canon. It doesn't have to be "The area in the right leaves to dimension A, there area in the left leaves to dimension B, and that's it. Anything else is a contradiction".

Additionally there is even MORE evidence against them sharing a space.
1. This would be weirdly inconsistent not only with the general portrayal of every other dimension in the game,

Those dimensions are visually inconsistent not only with the general portrayal of every other dimension in the game, you can't just ignore that.

but also with the official concept diagrams of Another Dimension which generally show separate inter-dimensional rift areas.

See above. Not even all of the above, just the sentence I wrote above.

2. There are dimension walls in the areas. Yes, the same ones that are presumed to be caused by Magolor's crown explosion. If these universes are sharing spaces, why don't we see anything happen in the stage select screen, which is a hub between these dimensions. This would either mean that they are a very local event and thus ruining the 2-C argument or they are happening within different dimensions and the stage select screen is just a hub used to travel to these disconnected universes.

This is another of those things you say that I imagine felt right to you but didn't break it down to see if it holds up.

• All of Another Dimension is the space between dimensions. They call those areas Another Dimension "interdimensional" bc localizations call AD that, and in the og Return to Dream Land game those areas were just called Another Dimension," 'cause most of the game took place outside AD. But that doesn't matter.

This would either mean that they are a very local event and thus ruining the 2-C argument

• We don't "see anything happen in the stage select screen," bc it's a stage select screen, it's safe. We don't see them in normal levels bc they're normal levels, it f*cks up the gameplay otherwise. Including the first level where you learn to play, static areas where you fight enemies, or the levels in general doing its own thing. But then, one could say "f*ck that" and ignore it, have it so it is "a very local event"; Doesn't go against the 2-C argument, it just means that the destruction is inconsistent that far away, and only those parts of those dimensions are going down due to it. This destroys your argument for a higher degree of 2-C [not that it wasn't already destroyed].

or they are happening within different dimensions and the stage select screen is just a hub used to travel to these disconnected universes.

• That goes against the notion implied by the game, you being in dimension X in the map, so the level is in dimension X. This is unacceptable to claim that it's yet another dimension that looks the same.

 

[Arceus0x]

I'll be replying to this later today

 

[Arceus0x]

No, it also matters what he says next; "and since there more than one passage of time, custumers are free to imagine how that would change things" He takes for granted how there are more than 1 passage of time despite the fact that the games never state so directly. This is in continuation to the part of the quote you grabbed, "there are some elements that are revealed after clearing the story": No much happens after clearing the story. Nothing that would "challenge the continuity of time as a narrative" directly. So we have the following:

• objectively "there more than one passage of time" here,
• those may or may not change things previously seen, the wording doesn't portray that objectively,
• and objectively "there are some elements that are revealed after clearing the story that challenge the continuity of time as a narrative"

You can either propose the latter to refer to the time travel I said, or you can ignore it and pretend like there isn't any contradiction going on here. To be fair, in a more sloppy verse ignoring what the creators say like that would be a solid option, but this is Kirby. Half of the lore and worldbuilding is delivered like this in posts or controlled interviews.

I don't see how this adds much. We know that there's a passage of time but my main argument in the end is whether or not Magolor actually did it. If there weren't more contradictions I'd probably agree with a straight up rating but I find this whole time thing to be very vague and not enough for straight ratings by vsbw standards.
All we have here is an implication that there's some time shenanigans going on, something that puts this feat into perspective in the first place. Whether the feat is done by Magolor in the past is never really stated, thus it is more so speculation and should be "likely" or "possibly" since firm ratings are usually reserved for very direct feats.

I don't need to prove why other games don't have Anather Dimension being destroyed when there is only 1 story (1 game and its remake) where this happens. That's would be like asking proof of why Earth (or whatever) isn't being destroyed in any story of a series just bc it is being destroyed in 1 of its stories, after claiming as reason as why that happens in that 1 story. The other stories will clearly more on from the topic and not talk about it bc it's not happening anymore. If it was the other way around (Another Dimension naturally being destroyed), then yes, other games should talk about it. This is notably confused thing to say as evidence for your disagreement. It's like trivia to it.

I think I missed sth while writing the argument, I might reply to this part later.

More to it, think it logically, what takes the least amount of speculation:

• Part of a multiverse is being destroyed after defeating a reality-warping destroyer with infinite power, one thing lead to another.
• Or
• Part of a multiverse is being destroyed, the multiverse must do that naturally on its own sometimes. The whole thing (Another Dimension) does that, beyond just what we see in this story. In all the other stories & games where this doesn't happen, it was just coincidence. Also all the beings living in Another Dimension, they can all randomly die if their reality crashes that day. Pretty stupid to live there willing, that goes for the Sphere Doomers w/ Energy Spheres stolen and those in alt. versions of Halcandra. Everyone else in Another Dimension doesn't seem to mind or be aware of their potential doom.

But yet again what i am talking about is the dimension walls, not Magolor not causing destruction. Magolor absolutely caused destruction and we see it in the form of the dimension he was in shattering. The wave comes later after Kirby and co escape and it is never explained how or why it happened. Thus there's my speculation that it is simply something that happens naturally rather than something caused directly by Magolor, especially considering we never see him release it and as I said below, it comes from a different direction.

It's attribute destruction to the end result of a big battle over a massive assumption with much room for that to not be the case, many improbabilities, and counterintuitive/nightmarish worldbuildingthe most insane worldbuilding ever.

• (Notes:
  • On "a massive assumption": Yes, I do say with self-awareness that assumptions are technically made from my part, since all other option are contradicted. I can confidently say that it's not the same.
  • On "counterintuitive worldbuilding": Yes, I do say with self-awareness that Kirby is a ***** & a half when it comes to complex worldbuilding. But that more so comes from the delivery of it, most of it is pretty reasonable all things considered. And the things that are crazy are crazy from their very execution, most likely as the goal in and of itself. I can confidently say that, again, this is not the same.)

It's a no brainer (Well, the topic is complex as f*ck to understand. But once understood, it's a nobrainer).

I understand it is complex and yet that only adds to my point, there are 'possible' explanations for the events and thus what i want is a possibly or a likely 2-C rating. I don't want to straight up delete it. What I am doing here is showing why the things we see are not solid facts but rather speculation, while a straight up 2-C rating would usually require straight up feats, ones that come from direct statements. The destruction at the end of the big battle is the dimension shattering, as I've already said.

This one's covered above but, to remove some points here; we know why Earthquakes, Supernovas, the potential Big Crunch or Big Freeze happen. But this would be a massive assumption. Think about this: Even if I didn't have all the evidence that I have, what you say here would still have a massive assumption with much room for that to not be the case, many improbabilities, and counterintuitive/nightmarish worldbuilding.

You kinda didn't really say anything beyond "this is an assumption" which I also say about your assumption and thus the possibly rating comes in. Additionally we know spaces can shift even irl, the big crunch was a well loved theory before the big freeze theory overtook it.

The translation can also say that the space "disappears", I went with closing bc it's the same and assumes less at the end of the day.

Nah, there's a massive difference between disappearing and closing. Closing can happen naturally, especially if we were to speculate that AD fixes itself, kinda how it quickly covered up the destroyed area that got nuked by Magolor.

• Even if it just said "closing," that works perfectly on my stance.

I still think it is very presumptious. It is weird that a supposed destruction wave causes the dimensions to close and not just nuke them into oblivion.

• For this to be evidence to you, the spaces would need to be "closing" w/o being destroyed, otherwise you say this for no reason. But we know for sure that this is not the case as AD is collapsing, only 1 space remains by the time we get there, and he other translations of the wording.

the statement about AD collapsing comes from a singe tweet, I doubt that it is as reliable as in-game info. Additionally Collapse is a synonym for closing. Something can collapse in on itself, kinda like an implosion. It is very different from straight up destruction, which is what we should be seeing.

You said the first thing in your mind while being fully confident of how it plays in your favor, but didn't think too much about it.

I thought about this extensively and prepared as I read up on your blogs, rewatched scenes ect. I find this to be quite rude of you to say and an assumption that I was super confident. I didn't want to make the CRT but the issues I found with the scaling bothered me to the point where I did make it, and even then I am going for a possibly or likely rating, not deleting the damn thing.

You're ignoring information in the blog at this point. The walls do no damage but kill you by crushing you against another way, therefore this is deadly for everyone being chased by them. (Bit of a dogmatic argument, but the whole point of those areas, with the tension music and semi-blocked path, is that you need to outrun the wall "or else." [you die]) It's also stated to be a/the collapse in Another Dimension chasing you, the collapse being the walls themselves. If it was a pulse, Another Dimension would remake itself in the parts it was collapsing itself, and reviving everyone who died. And the wording of the walls "closing" can also be translated as space "disappearing".

You're contradicting yourself here. First the walls are collapsing and then you bring up the disappearing thing again. The walls of a dimension closing up and a dimension disappearing are very different as one is something akin to a star collapsing in on itself and another is literally just vanishing into nothingness. The fact that the walls do no damage means that it isn't destruction and if it isn't destruction, what is it? Did Magolor release a wave that just randomly closes dimensions? Seems unfair.

Btw, it makes sense that the walls do no damage to you. I'm not as strong as titanium, but I would take no damage from a titanium wall chasing me at speeds far slower than my own. And I will be crushed if that crushes me against another wall. One could argue that the walls should damage you, and that they only don't for gameplay reasons, I don't care, it doesn't matter at the end of the day.

Yet again, how does that support your point? The fact that the walls don't destroy anything already means that it is different from straight up destruction. This puts Magolor actually destroying them into question again as there's no reason why the "big destruction at the end of the big battle" is now a very specific wave of something that for some reason slowly closes dimensions and doesn't destroy them or something. This makes the argument even weirder.

Here is the ending sequence of KRtDLD. As we can see what Magolor caused is the shattering of the entire space they were in. THEN the wave comes in and starts swallowing everything up. It also comes from a different direction unlike the destruction caused by Magolor, it comes from behind while the epicenter of the shattering of the universe seems to be around the part where Magolor was. This is weird as it wouldn't make sense for the wave to come from behind.

This is mostly covered above. I said most of what I need to here; it's speculation that it works the way you say. The destruction is pretty uneven, hence everything. Even that shattering starts away from Kirby & co. What's being destroted is far bigger than smaller spaces like that, after all. I wouldn't say that it's weird that the walls start from their "right," that said, when Landia is taking them away, bigger walls were chasing them from the place Magolor was, and for a longer amount of time. So there is that.

The dimensional destruction still started from around the same area where Magolor was. It also happened immediately after he and the crown vanished. That puts a direect tie in to the feat. The fact that the wave came from a different location entirely is definitely weird because logically it'd make sense only if it came from the place where the energy was released. The crown shattering, releasing energy and thus causing the space around it to shatter makes sense. A weirdly-functioning wave appearing from a different area entirely doesn't.

 

[Arceus0x]

Wow, hey, hold on. Should you be correct on the other thing (that I disagreed with above), I wouldn't think for a second that destroying a universe that destroys itself at random is solid 3-A. That thing may as well be made of paper. I'm being poetic of course, 3-A is based on our universe, which won't collapse at random. Imagine attacking and destroying a house, and attacking and destroying a house that could collapse at random. Not the same. One could say "Well we have to assume X, which means the feat is 3-A" but no, no we don't have to based on the logic around the topic. Break it down.

You missed the point yet again. My point above was that AD 'might' have a system where the spaces inside it close in on themselves big-crunch style. The 3-A destruction we see is different as it straight up shatters the entire dimension into pieces, a completely different event.

That's only interstellar in range, it goes as far as the eye can see. Saying it was the universe is speculation. I don't care that they do this in other verses, it's nonsense. Magolor's 2-C and that attack is still only interstellar in range.

First off, Magolor's 2-C attack being interstellar contradicts itself in many ways so unless you meant something else you would be putting sticks in your own wheels.

Second off, I disagree that it is interstellar range. The space shatters, we see a void behind the shattered space. It fits well and many universe level feats in other verses look similar. There being a void outside of the universe is a classic thing to show and with the entire space shattering it would make sense. I find it to be a bigger assumption that the void behind the destroyed space is just further deep space since it looks nothing like the sky that we see in that universe.

Your blog itself says the place they were fighting in was a different sky as well.

Additionally the shattered bits of the dimension are clearly thin. If those were just interstellar sections shattered they'd still be that big. Instead we see thin slices that seem small on the outside but contains star systems on the inside. It already kinda doesn't make sense but at the same time it'd make far less sense if it was a small chunk of the universe and not the entire universe shattering. Ik this point is weird but basically what I'm trying to say, this was a uniform destruction of spaces that would make far less sense if we assumed it was interstellar.

When Magolor gets MAX at every ability, he's stronger than Magolor Soul. Getting each MAX ability gets him to say only 1 comment. Therefore, this can easily be a stronger Magolor.

What are you even trying to say here man? What proof do you have of this? Like okay he said a comment, so what? What does this change?

If anything, I would think that to be likely given how "Black Hole" is the last ability listed there, if players can level them up in any order.

This yet again adds and changes nothing. Magolor was basically at rock bottom at the start and recovered his abilities. In the game he fights the crown that is using a tree to fight him. The crown didn't grow stronger and the crown usually varies in power based on its user, such as Landia being significantly weaker than crowned Magolor despite both having those abilities. I don't see how this changes anything.

That's one reason. The other (I think it's in the blog, I need to update that thing) is how broken that place is. Not physical things, that doesn't matter. I mean space itself, it's way off from other dimensions in AD, the ones we know for sure are universes. Also, a dead Magolor and dead Master Crown are right at home there. Based on that one factor alone, are they dead universes? Are they special realities for the dead? Pick either of those last reasons, 1 alone betrays our trust to consider those universe-sized realities.

This feels like speculation stacked on top of speculation. Cool, they are further. Guess what? There's no evidence they are genuienly shattered as everything functions well enough, we just seem to be in some abandoned locations there. I know the gameplay and I don't see how it's more broken than places like the SA dimensions. That wave is still there, the one you claim is made by Magolor. This means they're close enough. If you disagree with that then you'll also have to disagree with the wave being Magolors so uh, pick your poison.

That's a good line of thinking. We even have a statement from a world map in Star Allies telling us how sizes there are whatever many times.

In this case, we also have to consider how inside the levels themselves, the dimensions changes colors. We're talking about gameplay stuff, not non-canon game map stuff:

• There are "boss"-like sections where many minor enemies come to attack you and that part of the dimension changes color. What's going on there?

gameplay mechanics at most. The filter changes for the moment of the boss fight, nothing else. It's clearly not a shift in location either since the color changes immediately after we kill the boss. Additionally this only seems to happen with minibosses and the actual bosses have none of that jazz.

• The actual bosses are able to move from dimension to dimension to bring their master stuff. (The Doomers may be the anciant Doomers that had this power in-lore. The other 3 guys would just so happen to have this power. Or they simply walked around.)

There are portals all over the place, the levels are also accessed by portals. Them walking around unnoticed in the place where Magolor is wouldn't make sense either, not to mention it'd be a pretty big distance to cover considering Magolor fully relies on portals for travel here.

• Then in the last level getting shot by cannons makes the sky change, when we know that each color is its own dimension here.

This can be explained away with the fact that it happens only in dimension wall levels. This is a similar mechanic to AD levels in the main game where the sky is grey at first and then gains color when we kill the doomer. Additionally it's not a different color but rather it has no color, it doesn't match any of the 4 locations.

I just remembered the latter point bullet right now as I'm making this comment. Before, I believed it was debatable how the visuals showed the dimensions being physically connected. Now I'm certain, these dimensions are 100% physically connected.

• The Jap. language lacks plurals or singulars. I put "skies" there but it could very well be "sky."

could seems like a stretch, when there's dubiousness use the official translation.

• Even then, a reality can be a universe and be smaller than our universe. It's just common practice to assume that to not be the case, as long as nothing goes against that idea.

Yes because that's the definition. Universes being in one universe is extremely uncommon and usually doesn't make much sense. Here they are very clearly called separate dimensions.

• We are in AD, the space between dimensions, called interdimensional space over and over. It makes all the sense in the world to call those stages interdimensional stages. An alien living in an Earth city may participate in a race one day and call it being in an "Earth race."

Seems like a stretch. You also failed to counter the fact that the portals are being used and they are 100% consistently only used for interdimensional travel.
Also if everything is so close here, why didn't that Magolor wave that is clearly present in most stages already devour literally everything?

The fact that it's uneven like that may or may not be canon. It doesn't have to be "The area in the right leaves to dimension A, there area in the left leaves to dimension B, and that's it. Anything else is a contradiction".

I don't see your point here beyond saying "maybe it is, maybe it isn't" even though that kind of color shift makes no sense if the color represents different dimensions or areas of a reality.

Those dimensions are visually inconsistent not only with the general portrayal of every other dimension in the game, you can't just ignore that.

I am not, but just because there's some contradiction in some parts of the visual protrayal doesn't mean they aren't dimensions

See above. Not even all of the above, just the sentence I wrote above.

This is another of those things you say that I imagine felt right to you but didn't break it down to see if it holds up.

• All of Another Dimension is the space between dimensions. They call those areas Another Dimension "interdimensional" bc localizations call AD that, and in the og Return to Dream Land game those areas were just called Another Dimension," 'cause most of the game took place outside AD. But that doesn't matter.

We already know that AD contains those dimnensions so yet again I don't see your point. Nothings stops them from being interdimensional in the literal sense and the portals support it. If they were interconnected, what would stop Magolor from just using a black door with stars like Kirby does. In Kirby he escapes from the wave of destruction all the way to the doomer arena while in the AD levels, not a portal. Those doors also exist in the dimensions we see. Magolor uses portals instead. This proves that they are interdimensional in the very literal sense.

• We don't "see anything happen in the stage select screen," bc it's a stage select screen, it's safe. We don't see them in normal levels bc they're normal levels, it f*cks up the gameplay otherwise. Including the first level where you learn to play, static areas where you fight enemies, or the levels in general doing its own thing. But then, one could say "f*ck that" and ignore it, have it so it is "a very local event"; Doesn't go against the 2-C argument, it just means that the destruction is inconsistent that far away, and only those parts of those dimensions are going down due to it. This destroys your argument for a higher degree of 2-C

ah yes, the destruction is inconsistent. Next thing its gonna do it is move only in specific locations so that it doesn't contradict your statements. Mmm yes.
Anyways, sure, it is a stage select screen, but it being in another dimension than the dimensions magolor enters is far more consistent as an explanation as to why it isn't affected, rather than relying on the supposedly multiversal destruction being uneven now even though it is a wave that is uniform in every portrayal of it.

• [not that it wasn't already destroyed].

This is how you sound like rn ngl bro


Several years on the wiki and yet you can't stop being condescending to anyone you debate

That goes against the notion implied by the game, you being in dimension X in the map, so the level is in dimension X. This is unacceptable to claim that it's yet another dimension that looks the same.

I never said it is a dimension that looks the same but that it is a hub and the colors we see are representations of the area to which it is connected.

 

[ShionAH]

Agree with the CRT

 

[Eficiente]

I don't see how this adds much. We know that there's a passage of time but my main argument in the end is whether or not Magolor actually did it. If there weren't more contradictions I'd probably agree with a straight up rating but I find this whole time thing to be very vague and not enough for straight ratings by vsbw standards.
All we have here is an implication that there's some time shenanigans going on, something that puts this feat into perspective in the first place. Whether the feat is done by Magolor in the past is never really stated, thus it is more so speculation and should be "likely" or "possibly" since firm ratings are usually reserved for very direct feats.

Already a bad start. Look: You made many arguments, if I counter 1, I would like you to confirm if you agree or not. As a reply to the counter of that 1 argument, I don't care what your main, different argument is. I get to it later on. Now I don't know if you agree or not, you vaguely imply that I'm right and ramble about things you already said. Worse, your words also show that you don't understand the topic:

You say "We know that there's a passage of time" when the quote says that there is more than 1, i.e. (at least) 2. And we know this is something proven by the game's story at the end of it, when nothing time-related is explicitly shown unless I am right on my stance, which is; most of the game happens in 1 passage of time in the present, and the inter-dimensional rift areas happen in another passage of time in the future. 2 passages of time in 1 story that we don't get to be able to understand until the end. This would imply the defeat of Magolor at the end to be responsible for what we see in the inter-dimensional rift areas in the other passage of time. Your words imply that you didn't think or didn't care of how counterintuitive it is

• to do this in the future when you claim it's a natural thing AD does that could have happened in the present as well,
• or how everything is black & white and needing to be fixed back to its og colors, similar to when everything shattered at Magolor's defeat.

It's not vague bc all the information leads to the same result, you claim it's vague bc you didn't understand everything going on here to the point of having a more disconnected version of events. Take no personal offense from it, it is a pretty complex thing. But these are not your private thoughts or a casual comment about it. You're disagreeing with something you don't understand while being pretty confident. Can you at least get to understand all of this, and then disagree? The difference there would be that I wouldn't need to remind you of how things work, connect with each other, or contradict each other should another stance to taken.

Minor nitpick, there are no "vsbw standards," those are the reasonable standards any person should ideally have. Could be that you meant that or not.

All we have here is an implication that there's some time shenanigans going on

You know, worse case scenario, you somehow get angry at me for what I said above. But look at this as an exmple: There a gazillion ways to have "time shenanigans," here we were not just told that there were time shenanigans, we were told specifically that "there more than one passage of time" here. You don't seem to be aware of the implications, based on your words. If you at least had an alternative on what that specific "more than one passage of time" meant, I would say "Ah, understandable. So it could be my stance, or your new proposal." But you explicitly lead me to believe that you don't know what they're saying, and that in your view of things they said less things & so everything's vague. If that were to be true the feat would be vague.

Whether the feat is done by Magolor in the past is never really stated

You got past, present, and future. My stance is that earlier in the story you get sent to the future, so you could say that Magolor did the feat in the future. By the end of the game, the feat happens, so you could also say that Magolor did the feat in the present. But you could never say "the feat is done by Magolor in the past," that's nonsense.

I think I missed sth while writing the argument, I might reply to this part later.

Why would you need to is beyond me, the argument I reply to is broken. You never come back to it in the end.

But yet again what i am talking about is the dimension walls, not Magolor not causing destruction. Magolor absolutely caused destruction and we see it in the form of the dimension he was in shattering. The wave comes later after Kirby and co escape and it is never explained how or why it happened. Thus there's my speculation that it is simply something that happens naturally rather than something caused directly by Magolor, especially considering we never see him release it and as I said below, it comes from a different direction.

You can't say "yet again" here when you're the one limiting the information we have down a few things here & there: The destruction isn't just the dimension walls. You see how the inter-dimensional rift areas are black & white, until fixed at the end of them? (The same happens in the remake, but it's hard to see as the colors are clearer, and there is a long loading right before everything gets fixed.) See how when you deafeat Magolor everything that gets shattered away is more colorful than the space left behind? My stance is that this is the same. Your stance is straight up incomplete, you claim this could be natural like pulses but you omit to go over how everything got black & white before the pulses even happened. I have to wait for your next comment to see what's up with that. That's how correct you are in the topic at this point in time.

Minor point but the narrative implies that Kirby could save the universe after defeating Magolor, saying as much, and then it gets destroyed in your stance. Doesn't happen in my stance.

You just repeat yourself in the quoted part of the comment; I already know how some of what I say isn't stated directly, and I already gave my reasons as to why that the case anyway. In general you don't address my arguments at all, so your reply looks like this:

• Me: We would need to assume the following for your stance to work:
  • Part of a multiverse is being destroyed, the multiverse must do that naturally on its own sometimes.
    • Me: That's insane, but it could work if consistent and not contradicted [i.e. if we were living in 2011, the year the og story came out].
    • You: It's fine.
  • The whole thing (Another Dimension) does that, beyond just what we see in this story.
    • Me: Just as insane, but it could work if consistent and not contradicted.
    • You: It's fine.
  • In all the other stories & games where this doesn't happen, it was just coincidence.
    • Me: That's insane. Wait, are you going to care when more and more games come up and this still doesn't happen?
    • You: It's fine.
  • Also all the beings living in Another Dimension, they can all randomly die if their reality crashes that day. Pretty stupid to live there willing, that goes for the Sphere Doomers w/ Energy Spheres stolen and those in alt. versions of Halcandra. Everyone else in Another Dimension doesn't seem to mind or be aware of their potential doom.
    • Me: That's insane. It contradicts common sense.
    • You: It's fine.

I understand it is complex and yet that only adds to my point, there are 'possible' explanations for the events and thus what i want is a possibly or a likely 2-C rating. I don't want to straight up delete it. What I am doing here is showing why the things we see are not solid facts but rather speculation, while a straight up 2-C rating would usually require straight up feats, ones that come from direct statements. The destruction at the end of the big battle is the dimension shattering, as I've already said.

I heard you the first time. See above what I say your issues are here.

A bad or potentially accurate interpretation of what you say makes the standards you use wrong: An accurate stat can be found via "speculation," it's not a bad word bc sometimes you need to decipher what's going on via speculation. The Kirby series especially implies to us that we're allowed to do this. Saying that "a straight up 2-C rating would usually require straight up feats" or "direct statements" is useless information. You're not saying that this needs to be the case 100% of the time, which would be dogmatic. You're not putting anything of merit on this debate with what you do say, so why say it at all; It's as if, you want or need that to be the case here, and if so that would be a dogmatic insecurity. The [real] issue comes with stuff being wrong, or too unlikely to be portrayed as something objective. Arguments to reach that get the debate going. You made many of those and I replied to them, but don't say irrelevant beliefs. Not only that, what you propose is to replace speculation with more speculation, now being far, far less likely, affecting the worldbulding rather than giving new stats [which is irrelevant]. From there to the next thing you say:

You kinda didn't really say anything beyond "this is an assumption" which I also say about your assumption and thus the possibly rating comes in. Additionally we know spaces can shift even irl, the big crunch was a well loved theory before the big freeze theory overtook it.

By pointing that out I do get closer to your stance being less likely, you just don't care. When I said "to remove some points here" I clearly implied to know that it was a small thing to say, you either don't care or you didn't get it. You again go over covered ground by saying "which I also say about your assumption"; Politely, do you think it's possible that to you things reset to 0 to you after a while, and hence you have a different perception of the values of the stances here?

Nah, there's a massive difference between disappearing and closing. Closing can happen naturally, especially if we were to speculate that AD fixes itself, kinda how it quickly covered up the destroyed area that got nuked by Magolor.

What was the process of what you did to make this comment? This is the statement, the translations can be:

• "The dimension closes as time passes" (or "As time passes, the space is closed")
• "Space fades with time"
• "As time passes, the space disappears"

You seem to be appealing to semantics, but you do so by being picky of only 1 meaning for "closing," which is wrong. You ignore the context in which is said and alt. translations.

I still think it is very presumptious. It is weird that a supposed destruction wave causes the dimensions to close and not just nuke them into oblivion.

It makes perfect sense. Are you thinking "closing" as in, a door physically closing? Or closing an area behind a door, as if the edge of the dimensional walls were the door? It goes in the poetic sense that you can no longer go into those places ('cause they don't exist). This fits with the other translations and even if those didn't exist, it fits with the fact that those waves crush everything in their way (which as we know, you ignored in the OP, so it would make sense that you believe this at first. But only at first, I already reminded you what those things are capable of, therefore there is no logic behind what you say here).

Essentially, you want the dimensions nuked, but they got shattered and their spaces were being all crushed or they were disappearing. And you find that very presumptious. You don't have a good argument here.

the statement about AD collapsing comes from a singe tweet, I doubt that it is as reliable as in-game info. Additionally Collapse is a synonym for closing. Something can collapse in on itself, kinda like an implosion. It is very different from straight up destruction, which is what we should be seeing.

So part of this is covered above. For the rest,

• doubting that statement is 1 thing. Pretty reasonable. All I have to say is point out the massive amount of new information in Kirby that comes from sources outside the games. Or just twitter, and this is crazy stuff we're talking about, like Void's vessel having arrived from Another Dimension. This would be the 1º time they state something wrong. I imagine you're aware of that if you saw my blogs.
• Beyond that, do you realize you're having issues with the semantics? Collapse may be a synonym for closing but it also means other things on its own. Different words can be synonyms to each other but different in their main meaning. The rest I need to tell you in the manner is stuff I already told you above.

I thought about this extensively and prepared as I read up on your blogs, rewatched scenes ect. I find this to be quite rude of you to say and an assumption that I was super confident. I didn't want to make the CRT but the issues I found with the scaling bothered me to the point where I did make it, and even then I am going for a possibly or likely rating, not deleting the damn thing.

I either don't believe you or don't believe it was good enough to matter, which I can prove very fast: Why didn't say your isssue with the twitter statement in the OP, and waited until replying to me to bring it up? In this comment, in the 3º quoted bit of your comment I replied to, why is your stance incomplete, to the point where I need you to reply to my comment to see what new issues you have with that will be? Why do you constantly omitted information in either a proveable way, or implied with your wording? You led me to believe what I said, and I said so not bc I'm"rude," but bc it helps the debate, as a reasonable person would see. If you would like me to, I can source to you how commonplace and inoffensive my words are. But talk to me elsewhere about it.

You're contradicting yourself here. First the walls are collapsing and then you bring up the disappearing thing again. The walls of a dimension closing up and a dimension disappearing are very different as one is something akin to a star collapsing in on itself and another is literally just vanishing into nothingness. The fact that the walls do no damage means that it isn't destruction and if it isn't destruction, what is it? Did Magolor release a wave that just randomly closes dimensions? Seems unfair.

I am not contradicting myself. You believe I'm contradicting myself bc you don't see the possibility of both being correct at the same time. You could say it in many ways:

• What we see after defeating Magolor is the collapse, the dimensional walls are space disappearing.
• The dimensional walls are the collapse and the space disappearing, bc the disappearing of space can be caused by a collapse in AD, or bc they're the same.
• What we see after defeating Magolor is space disappearing due to being gone; like a glass disappearing if you punch it & is no longer there. And it's also a collapse.

I could make up some more, you keep arguing semantics from a limited perspective on what words mean and how things "should play out according to you," but you're confused on the topic.

Yet again, how does that support your point? The fact that the walls don't destroy anything already means that it is different from straight up destruction. This puts Magolor actually destroying them into question again as there's no reason why the "big destruction at the end of the big battle" is now a very specific wave of something that for some reason slowly closes dimensions and doesn't destroy them or something. This makes the argument even weirder.

That "Yet again" is based nothing, there is nothing said above that would support my point should I be right.

Your comment is nonsense: I proposed the dimensional walls to be a tangible, hard thing encompassing the dimensions, but now in your mind the dimensions aren't being destroyed. That's not possible. You were thinking so much in your own stance that you didn't break down what I meant in the comment, so you replied from your own point of view.

Have it your way for a second; the dimensions are being closed & the dimensional walls aren't a form of destruction bc they don't harm you on contact. I have so many questions then: What does it mean to have the dimensions being closed, mechanically? Why the dimensional walls crush Kirby & co. but not the rest of the dimensions? In what sense is this a "collapsing" AD if it's not destruction? Why are the dimensions black & white and later fixed, mechanically speaking? Why ignore the alt. translations rather than understand the wording in a way that they're all correct? It's all nonsense, I don't believe for a second that you're keeping up with each unlikely and nonsensical thing you keep building along the way.

The dimensional destruction still started from around the same area where Magolor was. It also happened immediately after he and the crown vanished. That puts a direect tie in to the feat.

I didn't forget any of the things you already said.

The fact that the wave came from a different location entirely is definitely weird because logically it'd make sense only if it came from the place where the energy was released. The crown shattering, releasing energy and thus causing the space around it to shatter makes sense. A weirdly-functioning wave appearing from a different area entirely doesn't.

The waves never appear in the regular spaces of Another Dimension, only the broken ones. The proposed implication is that 1 led to the other. There are many ways to view this:

• Everything is breaking, so the waves fall bc of it from places beyond that. It fits with space facing / disappearing.
• Space is breaking, the broken space accumulates & forms the waves.
• The waves are a natural result of reality breaking. (They don't come from the edges of reality, but they're formed in any place inside a reality at random)
• Since the waves were also portrayed as space facing / disappearing, everything is being erased as a result of reality breaking.
• The waves are the main thing Magolor caused, the breaking of everything had to happen first as a byproduct bc the waves were too much.

You're not putting into perspective what your stance implies to replace mine, you give too much meaning to the fact that they appear "from a different area entirely" when in your take they also work randomly for no reason.

You missed the point yet again. My point above was that AD 'might' have a system where the spaces inside it close in on themselves big-crunch style. The 3-A destruction we see is different as it straight up shatters the entire dimension into pieces, a completely different event.

When did I miss the point a first time? Arrogance is no substitute for competence.

I didn't miss the point bc my stance works in accordance with that fact, you just don't see how. I don't care how the events aren't the same, the automatic collapse of a dimension is detrimental enough. You have semantics issues with the shattering of a dimension and its collapse not being the same and I don't agree. And this is with you not having replied to information you missed about the event.

First off, Magolor's 2-C attack being interstellar contradicts itself in many ways so unless you meant something else you would be putting sticks in your own wheels.

Second off, I disagree that it is interstellar range. The space shatters, we see a void behind the shattered space. It fits well and many universe level feats in other verses look similar. There being a void outside of the universe is a classic thing to show and with the entire space shattering it would make sense. I find it to be a bigger assumption that the void behind the destroyed space is just further deep space since it looks nothing like the sky that we see in that universe.

Your blog itself says the place they were fighting in was a different sky as well.

Additionally the shattered bits of the dimension are clearly thin. If those were just interstellar sections shattered they'd still be that big. Instead we see thin slices that seem small on the outside but contains star systems on the inside. It already kinda doesn't make sense but at the same time it'd make far less sense if it was a small chunk of the universe and not the entire universe shattering. Ik this point is weird but basically what I'm trying to say, this was a uniform destruction of spaces that would make far less sense if we assumed it was interstellar.

You're confused again. There is no "Magolor's 2-C attack." There is one 2-C feat, it's not an attack mid-combat. You said "Magolor could warp the entire area using his black hole" while linking the gif I made of Magolor using his Black Hole attack, we're talking about his black hole, not his defeat.

I disagree that it is interstellar range. The space shatters, we see a void behind the shattered space.

That's his defeat, not his Black Hole.

It fits well

It would, he's very powerful. That's called circumstantial evidence, but you have no evidence [for the Black Hole to be at that level].

many universe level feats in other verses look similar

Terrible argument. Give the reasons for it, don't appeal to others needing to be correct.

There being a void outside of the universe is a classic thing to show and with the entire space shattering it would make sense

We're talking about the Black Hole. Not his defeat. Also I don't care that it's a classic thing to show, neither should you.

I find it to be a bigger assumption that the void behind the destroyed space is just further deep space since it looks nothing like the sky that we see in that universe.

Same as before. Also this is the epicenter of the collapse that was destroying whole dimensions, w/o that we would need to see how it holds up as a Universe level feat. I didn't put much thought into that subtopic before.

Your blog itself says the place they were fighting in was a different sky as well.

It's even stated to be a universe. This is not even circumstantial evidence, you're just saying where it took place. Don't say arguments that don't matter.

Additionally the shattered bits of the dimension are clearly thin. If those were just interstellar sections shattered they'd still be that big. Instead we see thin slices that seem small on the outside but contains star systems on the inside.

Ik this point is weird but basically what I'm trying to say, this was a uniform destruction of spaces that would make far less sense if we assumed it was interstellar.

It's uneven. Those details don't matter.

It already kinda doesn't make sense but at the same time it'd make far less sense if it was a small chunk of the universe and not the entire universe shattering.

That makes an equal amount of sense actually. That is, mechanically, but in a proveable way, you need evidence for the higher range of how it happened.

What are you even trying to say here man? What proof do you have of this? Like okay he said a comment, so what? What does this change?

This is not hard to understand.

1. You claimed that this was a weaker Black Hole: "(at that point Magolor was weaker than his Crowned self)"
2. I point out how likely it is that he's not weaker.

That's what I said.

What proof do you want if you think I tried to say something & failed? The stuff in Magolor's profile: "Previously died as Magolor Soul & lost most of his power, regaining it "all" & further developing into having "surpassed [his] limits" & being "the strongest Magolor" because of all the absorbed Magic Points from the Master Crown & how he collected all the Fruit Fragments, which have developing [...] properties" There are not many Magolors he's aware of, being the strongest Magolor is about his current state in his life. It's a tiny bit poetic, I hope you don't have an issue with that.

This yet again adds and changes nothing. Magolor was basically at rock bottom at the start and recovered his abilities.

Ironically you start with irelevant information while telling me that I add and change nothing based on your disagreement with me, not the proposal itself I give. It doesn't matter how Magolor was at rock bottom at the start when talking about him at the end, or just talking about a Magolor not at rock bottom. That's something you say w/o putting things in perspective. As he was recovering abilities he was growing stronger and stronger, to the point of being stronger than before.

In the game he fights the crown that is using a tree to fight him. The crown didn't grow stronger

We don't know that actually, it used the same apple Magolor used to grow stronger. But sure.

and the crown usually varies in power based on its user, such as Landia being significantly weaker than crowned Magolor despite both having those abilities. I don't see how this changes anything.

The crown doesn't vary in power, that's your headcanon.

• Using the crown gets you some of its power, mainly bc being possessed leads to more power, and secondarily bc Landia is unable to use its full power.
• Being possessed by the crown is described as being dominated by its power all the time. The crown is in control here, therefore it's just as powerful as before.

This feels like speculation stacked on top of speculation.

See what I said above about speculation. And at the current moment we think of these dimensions, you can call that speculation, but we are trying to make sense of alien dimensions. It's not the same.

Cool, they are further. Guess what?

No, when I said "how broken that place is. Not physical things, that doesn't matter. I mean space itself, it's way off from other dimensions in AD" I meant "off" as in "characterized by performing or feeling worse than usual; unsatisfactory or inadequate"

There's no evidence they are genuienly shattered as everything functions well enough,

If you ignore the reasons I said and go over the things they do well then yeah, they function in the ways that they function.

we just seem to be in some abandoned locations there.

Not my argument, I know that doesn't matter.

I know the gameplay and I don't see how it's more broken than places like the SA dimensions.

There look like a tv or computer screens if you use a drill to put a hole in them. But my arguments are written above, and you go over none of them here.

That wave is still there, the one you claim is made by Magolor. This means they're close enough. If you disagree with that then you'll also have to disagree with the wave being Magolors so uh, pick your poison.

This doesn't follow from what I wrote.

gameplay mechanics at most. The filter changes for the moment of the boss fight, nothing else. It's clearly not a shift in location either since the color changes immediately after we kill the boss. Additionally this only seems to happen with minibosses and the actual bosses have none of that jazz.

You don't know nor can you be sure of it. There are alien dimensions that do similar things to that already.

There are portals all over the place, the levels are also accessed by portals. Them walking around unnoticed in the place where Magolor is wouldn't make sense either, not to mention it'd be a pretty big distance to cover considering Magolor fully relies on portals for travel here.

Could be, now that really is speculation. There are portals where Magolor is, we don't know if they are in other places. Heck, some of the portals may even be gameplay mechanics and not be there.

This can be explained away with the fact that it happens only in dimension wall levels. This is a similar mechanic to AD levels in the main game where the sky is grey at first and then gains color when we kill the doomer. Additionally it's not a different color but rather it has no color, it doesn't match any of the 4 locations.

It's not similar. In 1 we see that happen, in the other we are moved into a place with a new color, therefore nothing changed colors here, we were logically moved into a dimension of another color. Going from grey and colorful isn't the the same as supposedly changing between the same colors that those dimensions are made of. You're stubbornly assuming way too much from what's logical just to make your take fit in.

could seems like a stretch, when there's dubiousness use the official translation.

Official translation are awful in Kirby. They have no saying in anything.

Yes because that's the definition. Universes being in one universe is extremely uncommon and usually doesn't make much sense. Here they are very clearly called separate dimensions.

You don't reply to my comment. My reasons are already knowing how uncommon that is and you don't reply to them most of the time.

Seems like a stretch. You also failed to counter the fact that the portals are being used and they are 100% consistently only used for interdimensional travel.

No, that's your headcanon that they always have to be used that way and an appeal to tradition. A portal is a portal, could be used for all sorts of lesser ranges. When Magolor summons Doomers we don't know if they come from other dimensions or the same, when he makes his Magolor Cannon travel across portals we don't know if it travels into other dimensions when we don't see it for a time, but when we always see it on-screen we know the portals are connected to the same dimension. But even with the rest, the lesser assumption is always talking about the same dimension. Magolor also asked himself if he could warp into other planets via a MAX Dimensional Vanish.

Also if everything is so close here, why didn't that Magolor wave that is clearly present in most stages already devour literally everything?

I already go over this, you should have deleted this when you saw that.

I don't see your point here beyond saying "maybe it is, maybe it isn't" even though that kind of color shift makes no sense if the color represents different dimensions or areas of a reality.

You claim it doesn't make sense, I say there are many ways to interpret how the alien dimensions work as some things may be gameplay or not. But you lack any reason to apply the specific rules you claim.

I am not, but just because there's some contradiction in some parts of the visual protrayal doesn't mean they aren't dimensions

That's a premise, where are the arguments to everything else I said above? You limit it to "some contradiction" when I said much more. Nor am I saying they aren't dimensions, just that they're physically connected and unknwon in size.

We already know that AD contains those dimnensions so yet again I don't see your point. Nothings stops them from being interdimensional in the literal sense and the portals support it.

At that point you would want that to be the case, but you don't have reasons for it.

If they were interconnected, what would stop Magolor from just using a black door with stars like Kirby does. In Kirby he escapes from the wave of destruction all the way to the doomer arena while in the AD levels, not a portal. Those doors also exist in the dimensions we see. Magolor uses portals instead. This proves that they are interdimensional in the very literal sense.

You're using irrelevant trivia as evidence, your points don't logically lead to your result.

ah yes, the destruction is inconsistent. Next thing its gonna do it is move only in specific locations so that it doesn't contradict your statements. Mmm yes.

Again, arrogance is no substitute for competence. I got the right statements to prove how all of those regular dimensions were being destroyed. But for these dimensions, you don't, so you're being arrogant over nothing that you might have in your favor. Yes, this is the type of thing one would say if they had a contradiction and they were playfully pointing it out. That sums up the way you argued throughout the entire thread: you lack substance, yet you still feel entitled to the same results as if you both had substance and were right in what you say. There is not going to be process if you don't face that fact.

Anyways, sure, it is a stage select screen, but it being in another dimension than the dimensions magolor enters is far more consistent as an explanation as to why it isn't affected, rather than relying on the supposedly multiversal destruction being uneven now even though it is a wave that is uniform in every portrayal of it.

I don't agree with the logic at the start. And the "uniform" waves were always uneven in how they travel, and how fast we are next to them.

This is how you sound like rn ngl bro


Several years on the wiki and yet you can't stop being condescending to anyone you debate

Anyone I debate that you see maybe. There is a saying in my country that translates to "To good understander, fewer words." I'm not always detailed if I don't need to. But in threads like this I legit build my comments and think "They might forget X / misunderstand X / misinterpret X / reply with X, which I already account for" before being done with them, so I try to be as complete as reasonably possible. And in this very thread I still have references for things you forgot, misunderstood, misinterpreted, or replied with something I already accounted for, despite having all the tools to avoid doing that. But this is not the norm, I assure you.

So your reference of me being condescending is me reiterating that I disagree with your premise after entertaining how it would be if that premise was correct. I wanted to remind you of that, I wanted to establish that I don't remove any value from my disagreement to your premise before. Stop being so insecure about anything that isn't nice to hear, please grow up. I don't believe I'm "condescending to anyone debate," I believe you have a warped view of what it means to be condescending, to the point where not-worthy comments like that are dick moves that need to be avoided. I think I can source to you how you shouldn't be bothered by such small things at all, but again, if you want to be personal about me and not cover the thread itself, talk to me elsewhere. Last time I said so.

I never said it is a dimension that looks the same but that it is a hub and the colors we see are representations of the area to which it is connected.

Can't be, moving there makes the game tell you in which dimension you are. Logically, you are now in the dimension it says. We cannot say it's just connected to those via portals while not being the same dimension but sharing the same colors.

 

[Arceus0x]

I'll reply tomorrow, I'm sick

 

[Arceus0x]

Already a bad start. Look: You made many arguments, if I counter 1, I would like you to confirm if you agree or not. As a reply to the counter of that 1 argument, I don't care what your main, different argument is. I get to it later on.

Ok, the reason I replied that way was because I was kinda confused on what you were getting at but after re-reading I kinda get it. You are pointing out that the statement most likely covers time travel, but my issue with it is that the weirdness in continuity that was mentioned to be at the end of the game could be the reveal that Magolor is gone while Merry Magoland is still there. Basically I do think it is about time travel but I don't think it is guaranteed to be about the destruction wave.

You say "We know that there's a passage of time" when the quote says that there is more than 1, i.e. (at least) 2. And we know this is something proven by the game's story at the end of it, when nothing time-related is explicitly shown unless I am right on my stance, which is; most of the game happens in 1 passage of time in the present, and the inter-dimensional rift areas happen in another passage of time in the future. 2 passages of time in 1 story that we don't get to be able to understand until the end. This would imply the defeat of Magolor at the end to be responsible for what we see in the inter-dimensional rift areas in the other passage of time. Your words imply that you didn't think or didn't care of how counterintuitive it is

• to do this in the future when you claim it's a natural thing AD does that could have happened in the present as well,
• or how everything is black & white and needing to be fixed back to its og colors, similar to when everything shattered at Magolor's defeat.

Still don't see how this really proves anything since yet again this relies on assumptions rather than direct statements, thus putting direct scaling into question. Sure, we have 2 passages of time, but it would explain Magoland existing as the main point, while nobody ever brings up the wave. Additionally at the end we don't actually see the world turn grey, we don't see that in neither the modern nor the old ending. Not only do the dimensional rift areas turn grey WHILE the wave is going, Magolor's attack never actually does turn anything grey. It being counterintuitive is your opinion, personally I think breaking chronology with time travelling in the rift areas if more counterintuitive for a kirby game and doesn't fit the usual narration style. Finally there's yet again the fact that the rift areas being in the future is based on speculation rather than direct proof, thus making the ratings less sturdy and thus making it a likely or possibly rating.

It's not vague bc all the information leads to the same result, you claim it's vague bc you didn't understand everything going on here to the point of having a more disconnected version of events.

Seems like bias from your pov tbh. It's YOUR interpretation of the statements and not the official information. Thus it should be a likely rating rather than a full on rating. Simple as that.

Take no personal offense from it, it is a pretty complex thing. But these are not your private thoughts or a casual comment about it. You're disagreeing with something you don't understand while being pretty confident.

Yet again you are the one being oh so confident in your understanding of it all while basing it all on a few connections we see and some words from an interview. The interpretation is game theory level stuff, no blatant statements, and doesn't deserve to be a singular rating.

Can you at least get to understand all of this, and then disagree?

I get it? You are very confident that I don't understand anything while I do. The road can cause time travel so the rifts we go in dreamland are in the future where Magolor destroyed the world. What I'm saying is that this interpreation, while possible, is not set in stone fact and thus should not support a 2-C rating but a possibly 2-C.

The difference there would be that I wouldn't need to remind you of how things work, connect with each other, or contradict each other should another stance to taken.

sure, once I post this reply, see my interpretation and correct it in one simple explanation if you see fit.

Minor nitpick, there are no "vsbw standards," those are the reasonable standards any person should ideally have. Could be that you meant that or not.

If that is so then it is weird since having tons of abilties and such that have standards but having no standards on the tiers would be extremely weird. If we go to the profiels in most if not all cases the main rating comes from a direct feat or statement while the possible rating comes from an interpretation of a statement.

You know, worse case scenario, you somehow get angry at me for what I said above. But look at this as an exmple: There a gazillion ways to have "time shenanigans," here we were not just told that there were time shenanigans, we were told specifically that "there more than one passage of time" here. You don't seem to be aware of the implications, based on your words. If you at least had an alternative on what that specific "more than one passage of time" meant, I would say "Ah, understandable. So it could be my stance, or your new proposal." But you explicitly lead me to believe that you don't know what they're saying, and that in your view of things they said less things & so everything's vague. If that were to be true the feat would be vague.

Yet again, implications, not direct statements that contradict what I suggest. The separate passage of time could be related to the fact that Magolor made Magoland and most likely comes from that other passage of time since the main Magolor ended up in the Clashverse. There are more ways to interpret it rather than just one and that is why I want to change the rating to some extent.

You got past, present, and future. My stance is that earlier in the story you get sent to the future, so you could say that Magolor did the feat in the future. By the end of the game, the feat happens, so you could also say that Magolor did the feat in the present. But you could never say "the feat is done by Magolor in the past," that's nonsense.

Mb, I think I misspoke here.

You can't say "yet again" here when you're the one limiting the information we have down a few things here & there: The destruction isn't just the dimension walls. You see how the inter-dimensional rift areas are black & white, until fixed at the end of them? (The same happens in the remake, but it's hard to see as the colors are clearer, and there is a long loading right before everything gets fixed.) See how when you deafeat Magolor everything that gets shattered away is more colorful than the space left behind? My stance is that this is the same. Your stance is straight up incomplete, you claim this could be natural like pulses but you omit to go over how everything got black & white before the pulses even happened. I have to wait for your next comment to see what's up with that. That's how correct you are in the topic at this point in time.

So how is being black and white destruction again? Additionally it makes no sense that everything is already destroyed and then the walls come in. Yes, I said that correctly. We enter the areas, they are grey, the walls start chasing us and then we fix it by killing a doomer. Firstly it makes no sense that we fixed anything at all here since all we did was kill a doomer, secondly I seriously don't understand how any of what you said really helps you since the two are seemingly unrelated. If you can prove that the black and white symbolize destruction and that its somehow related to the walls then be my guest.

Minor point but the narrative implies that Kirby could save the universe after defeating Magolor, saying as much, and then it gets destroyed in your stance. Doesn't happen in my stance.

I don't really think it makes sense either way, whether it is my point or yours we see the universe get nuked.

You just repeat yourself in the quoted part of the comment; I already know how some of what I say isn't stated directly, and I already gave my reasons as to why that the case anyway. In general you don't address my arguments at all, so your reply looks like this:

• Me: We would need to assume the following for your stance to work:
  • Part of a multiverse is being destroyed, the multiverse must do that naturally on its own sometimes.

first of all, all we see get destroyed is a universe, it gets shattered. We don't see anything else get affected. My argument is that the rift areas, which we established are separate areas, close in on themselves which might be a natural thing that happens to them rather than being connected with something Magolor did. The fact that there's doubt that can be cast means that we shouldn't use a straight rating.

• Me: That's insane, but it could work if consistent and not contradicted [i.e. if we were living in 2011, the year the og story came out].
• You: It's fine.
• The whole thing (Another Dimension) does that, beyond just what we see in this story.
  • Me: Just as insane, but it could work if consistent and not contradicted.
  • You: It's fine.
• In all the other stories & games where this doesn't happen, it was just coincidence.
  • Me: That's insane. Wait, are you going to care when more and more games come up and this still doesn't happen?
  • You: It's fine.
• Also all the beings living in Another Dimension, they can all randomly die if their reality crashes that day. Pretty stupid to live there willing, that goes for the Sphere Doomers w/ Energy Spheres stolen and those in alt. versions of Halcandra. Everyone else in Another Dimension doesn't seem to mind or be aware of their potential doom.
  • Me: That's insane. It contradicts common sense.
  • You: It's fine.

There's no real point to reply to any of this since it's a summary of your pov with arguments that I already replied to.

I heard you the first time. See above what I say your issues are here.

Everything you've said so far still makes it clear that the whole thing comes from an interpreatation rather than a direct statement which in turn makes the 2-C rating less solid.

A bad or potentially accurate interpretation of what you say makes the standards you use wrong: An accurate stat can be found via "speculation," it's not a bad word bc sometimes you need to decipher what's going on via speculation. The Kirby series especially implies to us that we're allowed to do this. Saying that "a straight up 2-C rating would usually require straight up feats" or "direct statements" is useless information.

I'll let admins decide that

You're not saying that this needs to be the case 100% of the time, which would be dogmatic. You're not putting anything of merit on this debate with what you do say, so why say it at all;

because I think the feat is way too vague and requires game theory levels of research into the topic to even come up with the explanation which makes it vague.

It's as if, you want or need that to be the case here, and if so that would be a dogmatic insecurity.

It seems to me you are too confident in your own interpretation of things to the point where you don't see just how ridiculously long of an explanation you need to get the 2-C rating, an explanation that requires assumptions to be made.

The [real] issue comes with stuff being wrong, or too unlikely to be portrayed as something objective.

When that happens the ratings don't go through at all.

Arguments to reach that get the debate going. You made many of those and I replied to them, but don't say irrelevant beliefs. Not only that, what you propose is to replace speculation with more speculation, now being far, far less likely, affecting the worldbulding rather than giving new stats [which is irrelevant].

Don't see how it affects the worldbuilding at all.

From there to the next thing you say:

By pointing that out I do get closer to your stance being less likely, you just don't care.

I find it to be slightly less likely than the interpretation you have, that's why a "likely" or "possibly" rating is being proposed. I am not trying to nuke the rating but to nerf it down a peg, that's why I keep making arguments, to prove that the rating isn't rock solid and shouldn't be treated as something blatant and undeniable.

Politely, do you think it's possible that to you things reset to 0 to you after a while, and hence you have a different perception of the values of the stances here?

What are you even trying to say here lmao

What was the process of what you did to make this comment? This is the statement, the translations can be:

• "The dimension closes as time passes" (or "As time passes, the space is closed")
• "Space fades with time"
• "As time passes, the space disappears"

You seem to be appealing to semantics, but you do so by being picky of only 1 meaning for "closing," which is wrong. You ignore the context in which is said and alt. translations.

You think it is semantics yet it makes sense that the "walls" are "closing in" and less sence that the space literally disappears. I am going of semantics combined with what is shown and what is shown is a classic game cliche where the walls are closing in and you need to escape them. Additionally the official translation of the game says "closing" and we take official translations with high priority when a meaning is debatable.

It makes perfect sense. Are you thinking "closing" as in, a door physically closing? Or closing an area behind a door, as if the edge of the dimensional walls were the door?

Closing as in "big crunch" closing, a 3D space collapsing in on itself kinda like when a star collapses before it becomes a black hole.

It goes in the poetic sense that you can no longer go into those places ('cause they don't exist). This fits with the other translations and even if those didn't exist, it fits with the fact that those waves crush everything in their way (which as we know, you ignored in the OP, so it would make sense that you believe this at first. But only at first, I already reminded you what those things are capable of, therefore there is no logic behind what you say here)

You prove nothing here. You use, yet again, your personal interpretation of what happens.
And no, I didn't ignroe it. Just because something can crush something doesn't mean it is equivalent to a wave of pure destruction. If you're stuck in a room and a wall closes in it will kill you. It makes no sense that Magolor created a wave that for some reason closes space but doesn't actually destroy anything.

Essentially, you want the dimensions nuked, but they got shattered

They didn't, we have evidence that one space got shattered, that's it. Unless you assume all the spaces are in one space that is and aren't separate, in which case the whole feat crashes down and gets nuked.

and their spaces were being all crushed or they were disappearing. And you find that very presumptious. You don't have a good argument here.

I do, since I am basing myself on visual information, intentional game mechanics and official translations, rather than a variant of a translation and an assumption.

So part of this is covered above.

Which in turn covers nothing and contradicts official information.

For the rest,

• doubting that statement is 1 thing. Pretty reasonable. All I have to say is point out the massive amount of new information in Kirby that comes from sources outside the games. Or just twitter, and this is crazy stuff we're talking about, like Void's vessel having arrived from Another Dimension. This would be the 1º time they state something wrong. I imagine you're aware of that if you saw my blogs.

I am not saying the info is wrong I am saying that the way it is phrased doesn't need to be fully accurate. Yet again, collapse is a synonym for closing.

• Beyond that, do you realize you're having issues with the semantics? Collapse may be a synonym for closing but it also means other things on its own. Different words can be synonyms to each other but different in their main meaning. The rest I need to tell you in the manner is stuff I already told you above.

You act like arguing semantics is some unholy blasphemous thing you can't do and yet it is important. Sure, collapse is a synonym for destruction as well, but the fact that it is a synonim for closing takes priority due to being official.

I either don't believe you or don't believe it was good enough to matter, which I can prove very fast: Why didn't say your isssue with the twitter statement in the OP, and waited until replying to me to bring it up?

Because I forgot about it existing in the first place and countered it when you brought it up.

In this comment, in the 3º quoted bit of your comment I replied to, why is your stance incomplete, to the point where I need you to reply to my comment to see what new issues you have with that will be?

Cause I'm not perfect and I don't remember the exact thought process I put into this uhhhh checks date 29 days ago, before I thought about it carefully, reassessed my own position and came to further conclusions.

Why do you constantly omitted information in either a proveable way, or implied with your wording?

Either I didn't remember the entire kirby bible of information you've stored up because I am sane or because I didn't think it was relevant while you do.

You led me to believe what I said, and I said so not bc I'm"rude," but bc it helps the debate, as a reasonable person would see.

More like what a rude person would see cause this helps nothing beyond make me dislike the opposition more and making me even more willing to continue arguing with you

If you would like me to, I can source to you how commonplace and inoffensive my words are. But talk to me elsewhere about it.

I can source you the definition of getting off your high horce but I think you can google it well enough by yourself

I am not contradicting myself. You believe I'm contradicting myself bc you don't see the possibility of both being correct at the same time. You could say it in many ways:

• What we see after defeating Magolor is the collapse, the dimensional walls are space disappearing.
• The dimensional walls are the collapse and the space disappearing, bc the disappearing of space can be caused by a collapse in AD, or bc they're the same.
• What we see after defeating Magolor is space disappearing due to being gone; like a glass disappearing if you punch it & is no longer there. And it's also a collapse.

I could make up some more, you keep arguing semantics from a limited perspective on what words mean and how things "should play out according to you," but you're confused on the topic.

Again, dimensional walls being disappearing space makes no sense. One they're literally called dimensional walls. If you burn down a paper do you call the burnt borders of it the wall of the paper? No, but it would make sense if it was the wall, aka the end of the dimension closing in as it collapses in on itself. You're trying to fuse the two ideas despite them being very different to each other.

That "Yet again" is based nothing, there is nothing said above that would support my point should I be right.

Your comment is nonsense: I proposed the dimensional walls to be a tangible, hard thing encompassing the dimensions, but now in your mind the dimensions aren't being destroyed. That's not possible. You were thinking so much in your own stance that you didn't break down what I meant in the comment, so you replied from your own point of view.

I call bull. Here you're saying the walls are tangible. If it is space disappearing then why is it tangible? This is what makes no sense, not my interpretation of things.

Have it your way for a second; the dimensions are being closed & the dimensional walls aren't a form of destruction bc they don't harm you on contact. I have so many questions then: What does it mean to have the dimensions being closed, mechanically?

Don't get what you mean by that question

Why the dimensional walls crush Kirby & co. but not the rest of the dimensions?

the crush Kirby and co and just absorb everything else, but they never damage anyone. I think that's just a game mechanic. Also what do you mean by the rest of the dimensions?

In what sense is this a "collapsing" AD if it's not destruction?

closing, I already brought it up.

Why are the dimensions black & white and later fixed, mechanically speaking?

idk man, they're clearly not destroyed and they're clearly not destroyed by the wave either since it is happening as they're already grey. Maybe that's why they changed the whole thing up with the color in the new game since it didn't make much sense.

Why ignore the alt. translations rather than understand the wording in a way that they're all correct? It's all nonsense, I don't believe for a second that you're keeping up with each unlikely and nonsensical thing you keep building along the way.

Nonsence this, nonsence that, you're so curled up in your own beliefs of how the story played out that you call anything that contradicts it nonsence.

I didn't forget any of the things you already said.

you better not

The waves never appear in the regular spaces of Another Dimension, only the broken ones. The proposed implication is that 1 led to the other. There are many ways to view this:

Which makes no sense since you're putting the horse behind the carriage here. Why are we running away from a wave if it already destroyed everything? Why isn't it everywhere? Or rather, why is there even a wave if supposedly the space already disappeared.

• Since the waves were also portrayed as space facing / disappearing, everything is being erased as a result of reality breaking.
• The waves are the main thing Magolor caused, the breaking of everything had to happen first as a byproduct bc the waves were too much.

You're not putting into perspective what your stance implies to replace mine, you give too much meaning to the fact that they appear "from a different area entirely" when in your take they also work randomly for no reason.

But my take assumes that the event is natural and thus not related to Magolor and thus doesn't really require an explanation since it becomes irrelevant, while your entire scaling rides on the fact that Magolor was the one who made them.

When did I miss the point a first time? Arrogance is no substitute for competence.

You should follow that rule more ngl

I didn't miss the point bc my stance works in accordance with that fact, you just don't see how. I don't care how the events aren't the same, the automatic collapse of a dimension is detrimental enough. You have semantics issues with the shattering of a dimension and its collapse not being the same and I don't agree. And this is with you not having replied to information you missed about the event.

Finally got you to the "I don't care" part lel. Shattering of a dimension and a dimensional wave chasing you are entirely different things and I don't see why it doesn't bother you.

You're confused again. There is no "Magolor's 2-C attack." There is one 2-C feat, it's not an attack mid-combat.

I'm not stupid, I just used a throw away word combination to say the destruction of AD. Now who's arguing semantics?

You said "Magolor could warp the entire area using his black hole" while linking the gif I made of Magolor using his Black Hole attack, we're talking about his black hole, not his defeat.

You failed to account for the fact that I am arguing that the destruction we see post-fight is 3-A and the black hole feat is a supporting feat that solidifies it.

That's his defeat, not his Black Hole.

And yet again, I know, I am using one feat to support the other to make it more solid.

It would, he's very powerful. That's called circumstantial evidence, but you have no evidence [for the Black Hole to be at that level].

We do, we know crownless Magolor could make it that strong if he tried and Crowned Magolor has an attack that twists everything we see and all our surroundings, which makes it good support.

Terrible argument. Give the reasons for it, don't appeal to others needing to be correct.

If others are correct then it sets a standard across the wiki. Just because it rubs you the wrong way doesn't matter.

We're talking about the Black Hole. Not his defeat. Also I don't care that it's a classic thing to show, neither should you.

You don't care about anything except for your own opinions so that checks out. Additionally the black hole is not straight up 3-A by itself, I am using it to support the argument for the 3-A feat that happens at the end of the fight.

Same as before. Also this is the epicenter of the collapse that was destroying whole dimensions, w/o that we would need to see how it holds up as a Universe level feat. I didn't put much thought into that subtopic before.

Well you should since we're arguing about it rn. I think it holds up since it is a place that is called a universe/sky that gets destroyed and a void is left behind its shattered pieces which makes it pretty blatant 3-A.

It's even stated to be a universe. This is not even circumstantial evidence, you're just saying where it took place. Don't say arguments that don't matter.

Tf are you talking about here I am literally agreeing with you here. Universe = sky you literally brought that up several times.

It's uneven. Those details don't matter.

Prove it

That makes an equal amount of sense actually. That is, mechanically, but in a proveable way, you need evidence for the higher range of how it happened.

Technically nah since the fact that there's a void already proves that it is universal destruction.

This is not hard to understand.

1. You claimed that this was a weaker Black Hole: "(at that point Magolor was weaker than his Crowned self)"
2. I point out how likely it is that he's not weaker.

What I asked for is proof.

What proof do you want if you think I tried to say something & failed? The stuff in Magolor's profile: "Previously died as Magolor Soul & lost most of his power, regaining it "all" & further developing into having "surpassed [his] limits" & being "the strongest Magolor" because of all the absorbed Magic Points from the Master Crown & how he collected all the Fruit Fragments, which have developing [...] properties" There are not many Magolors he's aware of, being the strongest Magolor is about his current state in his life. It's a tiny bit poetic, I hope you don't have an issue with that.

-"What proof do you want?"
-proceeds to send proof
Like bruh do you not hear yourself?

Anyways this proved nothing since the fact that the crown did survive and has some of its original power while Magolor only collected some of the scattered power. It makes far more sense that his transformed state with the crown would be stronger than himself with some of the crown's power absorbed. Him surpassing his limits means he surpassed the limits of his normal self and nowhere does it say that he surpassed his+crown's limits.

Ironically you start with irelevant information while telling me that I add and change nothing based on your disagreement with me, not the proposal itself I give. It doesn't matter how Magolor was at rock bottom at the start when talking about him at the end, or just talking about a Magolor not at rock bottom. That's something you say w/o putting things in perspective. As he was recovering abilities he was growing stronger and stronger, to the point of being stronger than before.

stronger than his normal self, sure, him becoming stronger than his cronwed state makes no sense since he has to absorb some of the crowns power to even get this far.

We don't know that actually, it used the same apple Magolor used to grow stronger. But sure.

k

The crown doesn't vary in power, that's your headcanon.

• Using the crown gets you some of its power, mainly bc being possessed leads to more power, and secondarily bc Landia is unable to use its full power.
• Being possessed by the crown is described as being dominated by its power all the time. The crown is in control here, therefore it's just as powerful as before.

Ok sure, I agree, except that it actually supports my point since that means that the crown would be consistently strong and thus Magolor wouldn't surpass his crowned state since the crown in the game is shattered.

See what I said above about speculation. And at the current moment we think of these dimensions, you can call that speculation, but we are trying to make sense of alien dimensions. It's not the same.

So its better to go off of statements then.

No, when I said "how broken that place is. Not physical things, that doesn't matter. I mean space itself, it's way off from other dimensions in AD" I meant "off" as in "characterized by performing or feeling worse than usual; unsatisfactory or inadequate"

changes nothing really. Like cool, the dimensions suck, it doesn't affect their spatiotemporal state.

If you ignore the reasons I said and go over the things they do well then yeah, they function in the ways that they function.

You didn't say any good reasons beyond it feeling off and not proving it.

Not my argument, I know that doesn't matter.

Then why bring it up?

There look like a tv or computer screens if you use a drill to put a hole in them. But my arguments are written above, and you go over none of them here.

I very much went over them and your little theory about it being a dimension for the dead doesn't make this argument any better.

This doesn't follow from what I wrote.

You didn't counter it though, how are there waves if the dimensions aren't close?

You don't know nor can you be sure of it. There are alien dimensions that do similar things to that already.

Nah, you are extrapolating a minor thing that changes once during mini bosses and trying to make it some major point when all it is is a filter that disappears the moment you kill the boss.

Could be, now that really is speculation. There are portals where Magolor is, we don't know if they are in other places. Heck, some of the portals may even be gameplay mechanics and not be there.

That is very much a stretch. Every portal we've seen of this type has been a portal to a different dimension. This is consistent. If you can prove that they aren't, then prove it.

It's not similar. In 1 we see that happen, in the other we are moved into a place with a new color, therefore nothing changed colors here, we were logically moved into a dimension of another color. Going from grey and colorful isn't the the same as supposedly changing between the same colors that those dimensions are made of. You're stubbornly assuming way too much from what's logical just to make your take fit in.

except that color in those areas is different from any of the main 4 dimensions. it is dark, almost black, while other dimensions have a main color that is very presistent thoughout the background.

Official translation are awful in Kirby. They have no saying in anything.

They should, just because there were a few moments of error doesn't mean we should disregard everything just because it fits your idea of it.

You don't reply to my comment. My reasons are already knowing how uncommon that is and you don't reply to them most of the time.

What??

No, that's your headcanon that they always have to be used that way and an appeal to tradition. A portal is a portal, could be used for all sorts of lesser ranges. When Magolor summons Doomers we don't know if they come from other dimensions

They are, it's literally stated in the main descriptions for the doomers that they come from another dimension to feast on the gears so it makes sense that he pulls them from other dimensions.

or the same, when he makes his Magolor Cannon travel across portals we don't know if it travels into other dimensions

"we don't know" is your entire argument here rn.

when we don't see it for a time, but when we always see it on-screen we know the portals are connected to the same dimension.

what do you mean we know? Where is the evidence? Every single time we see them they are used for interdimensional travel

But even with the rest, the lesser assumption is always talking about the same dimension. Magolor also asked himself if he could warp into other planets via a MAX Dimensional Vanish.

And then he warps into a different dimension at the end of the game lmao

I already go over this, you should have deleted this when you saw that.

don't tell me what to do

You claim it doesn't make sense, I say there are many ways to interpret how the alien dimensions work as some things may be gameplay or not. But you lack any reason to apply the specific rules you claim.

what rules? That the color shifts shouldn't instantly change when you walk a meter away when the colors are supposed to be representative of the dimensions?

That's a premise, where are the arguments to everything else I said above?

you got them

You limit it to "some contradiction" when I said much more. Nor am I saying they aren't dimensions, just that they're physically connected and unknwon in size.

Which is already weird considering the other dimensions are unconnected. Why are these dimensions special now? They have the same dimensional walls so it makes no sense that they aren't the same type.

At that point you would want that to be the case, but you don't have reasons for it.

same goes for you, you don't want them to be separate so you do everything and pull out game mechanics to try and state your case.

You're using irrelevant trivia as evidence, your points don't logically lead to your result.

That's just because you can't argue against them so you prefer to try and paint them as meaningless trivia, even though it has all the relevance.

Again, arrogance is no substitute for competence.

touche

I got the right statements to prove how all of those regular dimensions were being destroyed. But for these dimensions, you don't, so you're being arrogant over nothing that you might have in your favor.

Except you're twisting and turning arguments to try and make them fit your perspective while I go off the things we actually see.

Yes, this is the type of thing one would say if they had a contradiction and they were playfully pointing it out. That sums up the way you argued throughout the entire thread: you lack substance, yet you still feel entitled to the same results as if you both had substance and were right in what you say. There is not going to be process if you don't face that fact.

Lmao the guy whose entire kirby rating is based on a theory is trying to teach me that I am the one who lacks substance, even though I've stated my case and given my evidence while I had to press you for evidence on as small of a thing as Magolor being strong.

I don't agree with the logic at the start. And the "uniform" waves were always uneven in how they travel, and how fast we are next to them.

show me

Anyone I debate that you see maybe. There is a saying in my country that translates to "To good understander, fewer words." I'm not always detailed if I don't need to. But in threads like this I legit build my comments and think "They might forget X / misunderstand X / misinterpret X / reply with X, which I already account for" before being done with them, so I try to be as complete as reasonably possible.

Except instead I do end up forgetting things because the stuff you could've simplified ends up being written out with improper grammar. Go by your saying and actually use fewer words and make the arguments normal instead of me having to analyze and entire paragraph to see the argument in the midst of unnecessary extrapolation and insults towards me and my skills.

And in this very thread I still have references for things you forgot, misunderstood, misinterpreted, or replied with something I already accounted for, despite having all the tools to avoid doing that. But this is not the norm, I assure you.

I forgot about a few things but me misunderstanding things is untrue, I went by what is written in the profiles and in the blogs.

So your reference of me being condescending is me reiterating that I disagree with your premise after entertaining how it would be if that premise was correct. I wanted to remind you of that, I wanted to establish that I don't remove any value from my disagreement to your premise before.

Bro you literally said "not that it wasn't destroyed already" which is very condescending. This is my reference of you being condescending.

Stop being so insecure about anything that isn't nice to hear, please grow up.

There's a thing called etiquette and if you can't hold that up then it means you don't know it. Every time we've argued you did this, you started getting arrogant and belittling me or others who disagree with you. Currently I am also being condescending but that is because you started it when I stated nothing against you beforehand. The only reason I am even being lightly rude and not calling you out more seriously is because I don't wanna get into RVR.

I don't believe I'm "condescending to anyone

Many would disagree

debate," I believe you have a warped view of what it means to be condescending, to the point where not-worthy comments like that are dick moves that need to be avoided. I think I can source to you how you shouldn't be bothered by such small things at all

If there's something that one can be bothered by and that something is unnecessary to the argument then it means it is a useless rude comment and nothing more.

but again, if you want to be personal about me and not cover the thread itself, talk to me elsewhere. Last time I said so.

Except the one who got personal was you. You're the one who started letting personal comments seep through, not me.

Can't be, moving there makes the game tell you in which dimension you are. Logically, you are now in the dimension it says. We cannot say it's just connected to those via portals while not being the same dimension but sharing the same colors.

But the fact that the colors shift along means that it is illogical since the colors are supposed to be the main color of the dimension. If these are 4 dimensions stacked up on top of each other then there isn't supposed to be a place where all 4 dimensions can be viewed simultaneously.

 

[Arceus0x]

Anyways I will have things to do later on so I doubt I'll reply to anything else anytime soon. I should be available around sunday or monday for a serious reply.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Almost all the main stances in Arceus0x VS Eficiente involve at least one of the claims that the other person's idea proves nothing, changes nothing, is nonsense, has arrogance, has a lack of knowledge, and so on, all while the responses are annoying to read due to disorganization. There ought to be a more productive way of going about this. I don't see a meaningful understanding being reached between the discussers any time soon.

 

[Eficiente]

Ok, the reason I replied that way was because I was kinda confused on what you were getting at but after re-reading I kinda get it.

Do you concede that you should have known this already when you made the thread as it was explained in the blog, and that my comments went over it twice already?

You are pointing out that the statement most likely covers time travel, but my issue with it is that the weirdness in continuity that was mentioned to be at the end of the game could be the reveal that Magolor is gone while Merry Magoland is still there. Basically I do think it is about time travel but I don't think it is guaranteed to be about the destruction wave.

We explicitly know it's not about Merry Magoland. Here are the statements:

• It's talking about Another Dimension (also called Another Dimension Road): "In particular, there is the "Another Dimension Road" that transcends time and space, and since there is more than one passage of time, customers are free to imagine how that would change things."
  • Merry Magoland doesn't take place in Another Dimension. Magolor escapes Another Dimension, going into the dimension the Dream Kingdom is in, also outside Another Dimension.
• Right after that, the topic changes to something else when talking about Merry Magoland: "In addition, Merry Magoland is a place... "
  • That's not to say that we completely changed the topic, we're still talking about time-related bs. If the "continuity of time as a narrative" is "challenged," it can happen more than once, and we do know how much time travel there is in Kirby.
• Added to it, your take would not lead customers to believe what you say bc Merry Magoland makes a consistent amount of sense at this point in the game, it doesn't "challenge the continuity of time": All across the game we can go to Merry Magoland and find Magolor there. A player may think "the mage Magolor did some magic to be there," w/o thinking it's him from the future. But remember, we're talking about "elements that are revealed after clearing the story" (of RtDL & RtDLD), and by the end of the story nothing happens that contradicts that notion.

I want to say, I concede you a lot of room for error bc time travel & the stuff going on here is complicated. But that has its limits, and having issues understanding text, semantics, the logic of what is or isn't gameplay, and being confident of understanding everything when you don't goes way past that.

I tried my own translation and "the continuity of time as a narrative." came out as "the continuity of time within the story." And "free to imagine how that would change things." came out as "free to imagine how things have changed." Both being slightly more specific, but I don't care leaving it as it is.

Still don't see how this really proves anything since yet again this relies on assumptions rather than direct statements, thus putting direct scaling into question.

I already went over how dumb that mentality is, on its own, and how hypocritical it is in this context as you want to add a lot of objectively worse assumptions to the worldbuilding. Please consider to re-draft your comments before posting them. Scaling is not the end-all be-all, all information should be accurate, period.

I'm trying to understand you here: Where does that mentality come from? Is it that you care way too much about what other people think, and "most people" are in it to use the stats of the characters? That would explain why you have that being so overrated at the detriment of the rest of the information that makes up a verse. If that rings true then it is completely superficial, and thinking like that keeps making you claim more and more wrong things. If not, you may ignore it.

Sure, we have 2 passages of time, but it would explain Magoland existing as the main point, while nobody ever brings up the wave.

• Wording. It says there are more than 1 passage of time. That's why I said "(at least) 2"
• I went over how you misundertood the rest of the wording above. It's unnecessary for me to say this, but I'll say it again: The "2 passages of time" are in reference to Another Dimension. Merry Magoland is not in Another Dimension. It doesn't make sense in your stance, but it makes sense in mine, as realities outside Another Dimension are in their own passage of time while the weird Another Dimension has its own. (Please don't reply to this bit here, just reply to the part where I go over this better)

Additionally at the end we don't actually see the world turn grey, we don't see that in neither the modern nor the old ending.

We do see the setting getting more dark colors after everything broke down, black & dark blue. And the inter-dimensional rift areas are more colorful than grey in the remake, actually being the same black & dark blue. So

• They may be one & the same
• or the setting may have gotten worse over time
• or the one I personally believe (but don't force others to buy), the grey-ness is a stand-in for everything being shattered, dead.

This is one of those arguments you make in which you place too much value over insignificant details that can easily be interpreted in ways that contradict you, which you don't buy.

Not only do the dimensional rift areas turn grey WHILE the wave is going,

That's wrong, they're already grey before we enter in them.

Magolor's attack never actually does turn anything grey.

That's irrelevant trivia. Your position is not being supported with it, mine stands on its own w/o that fact.

It being counterintuitive is your opinion, personally I think breaking chronology with time travelling in the rift areas if more counterintuitive for a kirby game and doesn't fit the usual narration style.

You already forgot something again; how this was stated to be the case. Stop using appeals to tradition as an excuse to ignore the context of whatever is challenging you.

Finally there's yet again the fact that the rift areas being in the future is based on speculation rather than direct proof, thus making the ratings less sturdy and thus making it a likely or possibly rating.

You sound like a broken record going over that again, just say it once and refer to that every time you may need to. Or don't refer to it assuming I already know that believe that, a pro move.

I believe you use this dogmatic argument as an internal reinforcement that you can't be wrong as you're up against something that must be not good enough. Feelings rather than logic.

Seems like bias from your pov tbh.

Important; you don't break down how in a sensical way. Yes, it's my interpretation of events, but I support them based on logic & reason, being able to back it up whenever necessary. I also know that you disagree. Where is the bias part tho?

This goes back to the superficiality I implied before. Calling bias is common, calling bias in one's interpretation of events would make sense in most context. But how common that is is not indicative of how likely & accurate is it to claim that. When people do so, they have their reasons for it. Here you appear to say that bc you felt like it applied, and that was the extent of that.

It's YOUR interpretation of the statements and not the official information. Thus it should be a likely rating rather than a full on rating. Simple as that.

3º time you go over this. For all the aspects in which it's wrong, it's bizarre to me how you don't react to the hypocritical implications of saying that.

Also you don't reply to what I say, regardless of agreeing from time to time to things that would imply I'm correct in what said about you having a more disconnected version of events based on lack of understanding. You essentially said "How dare you believe your stance?" and left it at that. Possibly the worse part of your appear to vagueness is that it's a means to not answer how your stance doesn't make sense during specific arguments. So you don't need to polish your stance, you already know it's not perfect & that means everything's fine to you. But those are terrible standards, everything is not fine, your stance is absolutely broken.

Yet again you are the one being oh so confident in your understanding of it all while basing it all on a few connections we see and some words from an interview. The interpretation is game theory level stuff, no blatant statements, and doesn't deserve to be a singular rating.

Idk where to start:

• Same as before, you don't concede to the point of the comment regardless of the evidence of you not performing well in the thread. You defence is to throw bad stuff at me.
• For the 4º time you appear to the speculation side of things rather than limiting to present the reasons as to why the stance is wrong.
• Your shameful portrayal of what I understand is wrong, either bc you need to exaggerate how much I don't know for your dish to work or bc you legit forgot everything going on. I mean it when I say that "all the information leads to the same result," someone who may keep up with that fact may not say the things you say here. A more reasonable, and humble person would understand that, if you were to be wrong in your claims, nothing would trouble my stance and it would go smoothly. So the whole shameful and theory stuff is irrelevant, only meaningful arguments of why I might be wrong get us somewhere.
• You can't ridicule the interview w/o putting into question its veracity, which you can't do. You would know this already if you read the canon blog, the series always neglects to put important information in the games themselves ever since Return to Dream Land, relying on other sources where to put them. From controlled interviews like that way, we got to know the following new, canon information:
  • nintendoeverything.com, Kirby: Planet Robobot director on the story, characters, Robobot Armor, and abilities, May 29, 2016: A f*ck ton of new or confirmed info on the HMC, Haltmann himself, Pop Star's uniqueness, and Susie.
  • Nintendo DREAM magazine, August 2017: First stated here that Waddle Dees don't talk with words, but onomatopoeia, and that Kirby senses them. Later in Forgotten Land it was 100% confirmed that they do not talk with words. The Taranza from the Dream Kingdom started the plot of Team Kirby Clash Deluxe bc he wanted to revive his version of Queen Sectonia.
  • Nintendo DREAM magazine, July 2018: An insane amount of info about Void.
  • Nintendo Dream magazine, June 2022: Dedede spending several months before Kirby arrived in the new world is new info, and it helps to understand the time dilation the game vaguely implies on its own. You know, "game theory level stuff," objective information since it has everything to be so.
• You also ignore how the secrecy of these events is on purpose, being meant to only be understood by those who may care to piece it together. "Of course, this is only for those who mind." Ridicule the fact that you need speculation and a theory to get there is very disingenuous.

I get it? You are very confident that I don't understand anything while I do. The road can cause time travel so the rifts we go in dreamland are in the future where Magolor destroyed the world. What I'm saying is that this interpreation, while possible, is not set in stone fact and thus should not support a 2-C rating but a possibly 2-C.

My whole quote there would be "You're disagreeing with something you don't understand while being pretty confident. Can you at least get to understand all of this, and then disagree? The difference there would be that I wouldn't need to remind you of how things work, connect with each other, or contradict each other should another stance to taken."

You exaggerate to create a straw man you can beat in your mind and feel better. I don't say you literally don't understand anything. I say you don't understand all the fundamental things you were proven not to understand. I don't care about those things you do understand, it's not good enough bc you were constantly giving me a hard time based on all the things you didn't understand. You're impossible to work here, I try to tell you your issues and it doesn't reach you.

sure, once I post this reply, see my interpretation and correct it in one simple explanation if you see fit.

Do you just don't care about all the times that happened already? Whatever 1 instance you're talking about, what about the rest? Idk what to tell you to make you see it.

If that is so then it is weird since having tons of abilties and such that have standards but having no standards on the tiers would be extremely weird. If we go to the profiels in most if not all cases the main rating comes from a direct feat or statement while the possible rating comes from an interpretation of a statement.

You again made up your own idea of what I said regardless of my words, again bc it fits what you were beliving beforehand. That should be very worrisome to you. I didn't say "having no standards," I said "those are the reasonable standards any person should ideally have." That very much means do having standards. Please consider to read what I said again, try to understand it, and compare it next to what you understood the first time.

What you say again fits with the superficiality I described you with. As if you see others do things that reach a result, but you don't understand how everything fits in a meaningful way, but you don't know that you don't understand that, so you think you have all the knowledge you need. In this case, you care too much about what most profiles say, w/o undestanding how irrelevant that info is next to how you should be arguing how it is that I'm wrong. 5º time you appear to the speculation side of things.

Yet again, implications, not direct statements that contradict what I suggest.

6º time you appear to the speculation side of things. Also you seem to agree that you got that wrong, but you almost never concede things like that, you just move on to whatever new things you claim.

The separate passage of time could be related to the fact that Magolor made Magoland

I replied to that above.

and most likely comes from that other passage of time since the main Magolor ended up in the Clashverse.

They're talking about the RtDL version of the stoy and the RtDLD version of the story ("Is the relationship between the Wii story and the Switch version of the story to be treated as a parallel?"). What you say happens in Magolor Epilogue, which is exclusive to RtDLD. We are talking about the Story Mode (& Extra Mode) both games have.

I need to again point out how hypocritical your stance is, as you don't like taking his words here to mean what I said, as that's speculation, but you're willing to replace that with your own speculation, which is to become the main thing we would hypothetically show should you have your way. All bc of your dogmatic view of how we can't have that influence stats if it's not as "Likely" or "Possibly," whereas changing other things via speculation (w/o a "Likely" or "Possibly") doesn't operate by the same rules. I say that expecting a reader to just understand how nonsensical that is. Please don't reply to this paragraph, it's clearly a smaller version of what I said above.

(Also Clashverse is not a thing. Verse is a whole series, you can't have verses within verses and the Team Kirby games were always canon.)

There are more ways to interpret it rather than just one and that is why I want to change the rating to some extent.

Yeah, it's layered with meaning referencing many things simultaneously if taken casually, but the prime meaning is the one I said for the reasons I said. You're the one limiting it tho, removing 1 way to interpret it as understood right now.

So how is being black and white destruction again? Additionally it makes no sense that everything is already destroyed and then the walls come in. Yes, I said that correctly. We enter the areas, they are grey, the walls start chasing us and then we fix it by killing a doomer. Firstly it makes no sense that we fixed anything at all here since all we did was kill a doomer, secondly I seriously don't understand how any of what you said really helps you since the two are seemingly unrelated. If you can prove that the black and white symbolize destruction and that its somehow related to the walls then be my guest.

1. It was stated to be a collapsing Another Dimenision, therefore, there is a collapse in those areas.
2. It was stated that the dimension closes / space disappears / space fades in all of those dimensions, minus the areas where the Energy Spheres are. Therefore, there is no space beyond those small areas, all the grey background you see is actually gone.
3. In the remake it's dark blue and black, same colors as the "void" after the dimension where we fought Magolor got shattered.

Don't say "it makes no sense that we fixed anything at all here since all we did was kill a doomer," I grant you that it is stupid. Very stupid. But it does make sense in-universe: That's the Doomer with the 2 Energy Spheres. Energy Spheres are creations of the anciants, same as the Master Crown, and hold alien technology that's viewed as very mysterious to even the HWC. We see this happen on-screen, you kill the Doomer and from it, energies come out all over space, and everything is back to normal. You don't propose an alternative as to what's happening there, or how that never happens in other cases. You just complain that it doesn't make sense, that's just you not liking how things don't fit how you would like them to be. That's not good enough at all.

I don't really think it makes sense either way, whether it is my point or yours we see the universe get nuked.

No, we see on-screen everything going back to normal via our actions. So again,

1. "Minor point but the narrative implies that Kirby could save the universe after defeating Magolor, saying as much, and then it gets destroyed in your stance. Doesn't happen in my stance."
2. What he actually needs to do to save the universe is defeat Magolor. That universe would be saved from the shattering after doing this 15 times, which Kirby already did.

first of all, all we see get destroyed is a universe, it gets shattered. We don't see anything else get affected. My argument is that the rift areas, which we established are separate areas, close in on themselves which might be a natural thing that happens to them rather than being connected with something Magolor did. The fact that there's doubt that can be cast means that we shouldn't use a straight rating.

Already know that. Well now you say doubt rather than speculation, so if you appeal to your other reasons then I can take that. Both of these are the same:

• Part of a multiverse is being destroyed, the multiverse must do that naturally on its own sometimes.
• =
• the rift areas, which we established are separate areas, close in on themselves which might be a natural thing that happens to them rather than being connected with something Magolor did.

There is no meaningful difference to it.

There's no real point to reply to any of this since it's a summary of your pov with arguments that I already replied to.

You almosy never concede to all the unlikely things that build up your stance. Moving on as if there was no issue.

Everything you've said so far still makes it clear that the whole thing comes from an interpreatation rather than a direct statement which in turn makes the 2-C rating less solid.

7º time.

I'll let admins decide that

See the hypocrisy of that stance above.

because I think the feat is way too vague and requires game theory levels of research into the topic to even come up with the explanation which makes it vague.

Research is not the enemy or a bad thing. A theory is a bad thing when proven wrong, and a theory that ends up being correct is not a bad thing. Something isn't vague bc it takes someone too much time to build a stance over it, something may be vague for the actual reasons that makes that vague.

It seems to me you are too confident in your own interpretation of things to the point where you don't see just how ridiculously long of an explanation you need to get the 2-C rating,

No, you have a dogmatic view of things, I pointed that out as the terrible thing that it is, and your reply is this. Can you at least concede that, should I be correct in needing to point out the error of your ways, you wouldn't have grounds to say this?

Before you slipped up a "research bad," now you take issue with an explanation being too long as being indicative of how wrong it must be. Again, another dogmatic view of things. And now I know that I tell you this and it will mean nothing to you. I don't know what to do.

an explanation that requires assumptions to be made.

8º time.

When that happens the ratings don't go through at all.

Yes. But the fact that you say that as I reply to what I said implies that you're just saying things automatically at this point, expecting everything to be in your favor or meaningful to the debate, just bc you said so. In other words, why would I say "no" to that sentence?

Don't see how it affects the worldbuilding at all.

You ignored the part that went over that by saying "There's no real point to reply to any of this since it's a summary of your pov with arguments that I already replied to." Please go back, read again that, and reply to this.

I find it to be slightly less likely than the interpretation you have, that's why a "likely" or "possibly" rating is being proposed. I am not trying to nuke the rating but to nerf it down a peg, that's why I keep making arguments, to prove that the rating isn't rock solid and shouldn't be treated as something blatant and undeniable.

I know already. So you concede to that, yes?

What are you even trying to say here lmao

Since you keep forgetting things, not being aware of things, replying to things by reflecting the topic, saying things you already said, or ignoring my words & placing part of what I said in the world of your stance, it would make sense that you would be forgetful of the arguments against you. So instead of piling up to destroy your stance, you only keep some things in mind and ignore the rest. Just moments ago you took issue with an explanation being too long, portraying it as an indicative of how wrong it must be. Why would anyone not believe that maybe things reset to 0 to you after a while? So I asked it politely there.

You think it is semantics yet it makes sense that the "walls" are "closing in" and less sence that the space literally disappears. I am going of semantics combined with what is shown and what is shown is a classic game cliche where the walls are closing in and you need to escape them.

Yes, it is semantics. The Dimensional Walls aren't the ones closing tho, it's the dimension itself, i.e. its space is closing, a side effect of the walls. That dimension closing, space fading, or disappearing, it's all the same. You can't have it your way bc the logic doesn't follow.

Additionally the official translation of the game says "closing" and we take official translations with high priority when a meaning is debatable.

Another dogmatic view of things with how terrible official translations are in Kirby, but it's the same so I don't care for now.

Closing as in "big crunch" closing, a 3D space collapsing in on itself kinda like when a star collapses before it becomes a black hole.

Why were you arguing before then?

You prove nothing here. You use, yet again, your personal interpretation of what happens.

But your own interpretation ("Closing as in "big crunch" closing, a 3D space collapsing in on itself") fits what I claim anyway. How can you not see that you're arguing semantics? Even if the thing you're hyper-focusing right now was true, I can apply your own interpretation to replace it.

And no, I didn't ignroe it. Just because something can crush something doesn't mean it is equivalent to a wave of pure destruction. If you're stuck in a room and a wall closes in it will kill you. It makes no sense that Magolor created a wave that for some reason closes space but doesn't actually destroy anything.

Again, semantics. I can use "crush something" or "pure destruction" to refer to the same if feel like it, and if "a wall closes in on me & kills me" then that isn't something that "doesn't actually destroy anything." That's completely, utterly nonsensical.

They didn't, we have evidence that one space got shattered, that's it. Unless you assume all the spaces are in one space that is and aren't separate, in which case the whole feat crashes down and gets nuked.

No, no. You didn't understand the comment. The point is that you're arguing semantics. "Essentially, you want the dimensions nuked, but they got shattered" So, "they got shattered" is my stance, which I know you disagree with. And I am not saying "This happened!" so that you may reply "No, this happened instead!"

Given your lack of leverage to claim that the feat "crashes down and gets nuked," it leads me to believe you're just copying when I said essentially the same for your take on the feat. But I had reasons to say that. You should already know all the long list of reasons as to why they're different dimensions, if you don't even try to argue against that then why contemplate assuming that they're 1 dimension.

I do, since I am basing myself on visual information, intentional game mechanics and official translations, rather than a variant of a translation and an assumption.

As said before, the visual information and intentional game mechanics cause destruction, and the official translation (singular btw) goes against you.

Which in turn covers nothing and contradicts official information.

See above.

I am not saying the info is wrong

Cool, process.

I am saying that the way it is phrased doesn't need to be fully accurate. Yet again, collapse is a synonym for closing.

Well, you already know that I argue you're going over semantics. So let's leave it at that.

You act like arguing semantics is some unholy blasphemous thing you can't do and yet it is important. Sure, collapse is a synonym for destruction as well, but the fact that it is a synonim for closing takes priority due to being official.

What? No, that's an insecure reaction, one can argue semantics. It's ok to do so. The social implication in context is that, I consider you're being very wrong and that it's very clear why you're wrong in this topic. And that it's worrying bc we're talking about semantics of all things.

They're not the same statement, 1 says the dimension is closing, 2 say it's collapsing.

Because I forgot about it existing in the first place and countered it when you brought it up.

Ok.

Cause I'm not perfect and I don't remember the exact thought process I put into this uhhhh checks date 29 days ago, before I thought about it carefully, reassessed my own position and came to further conclusions.

Ok.

Either I didn't remember the entire kirby bible of information you've stored up because I am sane or because I didn't think it was relevant while you do.

Not ok. You are expected to know X topic if you're going to disagree with it. I'm talking, the info we as a wiki use, if there was more info about X topic we didn't use, you could ignore that. Sounds reasonable? Otherwise, one ends up giving people a hard time in a debate as they need to rebuild why they disagree with X topic, in the middle of the debate, which is annoying and entirely avoidable.

More like what a rude person would see cause this helps nothing beyond make me dislike the opposition more and making me even more willing to continue arguing with you

I can source you the definition of getting off your high horce but I think you can google it well enough by yourself

I can, literally, prove to you how that helps the debate, and how irrational you're being by assuming that it has to be rude.

Likewise I can prove how that doesn't help the debate at all, be an asshole again in this thread and I will delete the paragraph where it happens. You can explain your reasons while being witty, no issue there. I humbly proposed to talk about it elsewhere and that I would source my claim, there is no high horce there, you're just pissed off that I implied myself to be correct.

Again, dimensional walls being disappearing space makes no sense. One they're literally called dimensional walls. If you burn down a paper do you call the burnt borders of it the wall of the paper? No, but it would make sense if it was the wall, aka the end of the dimension closing in as it collapses in on itself. You're trying to fuse the two ideas despite them being very different to each other.

See above. You again use speculation despite not being a fan of it, whereas my stance is more open about that.

I call bull. Here you're saying the walls are tangible. If it is space disappearing then why is it tangible? This is what makes no sense, not my interpretation of things.

Maybe tangible is the wrong word; as tangible as what they consume anyway. Or maybe they are tangible, it doesn't matter. Either way the destroy what they consume, thus the consumed space disappears, regardless of the dimensional walls being tangible or not.

Don't get what you mean by that question

Please read it again. What do you think the question means?

the crush Kirby and co and just absorb everything else, but they never damage anyone. I think that's just a game mechanic.

You keep making up game mechanics for your stance to work. Do you know how many you invented by now? Other sources state that the dimensional walls do what they do to Kirby & co, but ig you don't care since they're guides and magazines.

Also what do you mean by the rest of the dimensions?

"The dimension closes as time passes, and only the place with the spheres remains"

idk man, they're clearly not destroyed and they're clearly not destroyed by the wave either since it is happening as they're already grey. Maybe that's why they changed the whole thing up with the color in the new game since it didn't make much sense.

That's not compelling.

Nonsence this, nonsence that, you're so curled up in your own beliefs of how the story played out that you call anything that contradicts it nonsence.

No, you got the pattern of a word being used a lot and that's now the same as when someone is irrational like that. I give my reasons as to why something is nonsense. Ig it doesn't demonize me to say "you're so curled up in your own beliefs of how the story played out that you call some things that contradicts it nonsence, giving your reasons for it should that happen. Other times you disagree with things w/o calling them nonsense, bc it's not the same type of disagreement."

you better not

Ok?

Which makes no sense since you're putting the horse behind the carriage here. Why are we running away from a wave if it already destroyed everything? Why isn't it everywhere? Or rather, why is there even a wave if supposedly the space already disappeared.

Easy. The dimensions are always almost destroyed, but only the places where the Spheres are remains. So the rest of the inter-dimensional rift areas are being destroyed as we play in them, being destroyed by the dimensional walls. So no, the wave didn't "already destroyed everything" and hasn't "already disappeared," it was close to by some seconds.

It's not everywhere bc it's not everywhere, this is the type of collapse where 1 area will be the last to be destroyed. Which is where the Doomers are.

But my take assumes that the event is natural and thus not related to Magolor and thus doesn't really require an explanation since it becomes irrelevant, while your entire scaling rides on the fact that Magolor was the one who made them.

I went over above how the mindset here is broken.

You should follow that rule more ngl

You still talk with no self-awareness. Look:

1. You said I missed the point of an argument again.
2. I say "When did I miss the point a first time? Arrogance is no substitute for competence." as to point out that you're trying to be rude to be similar to someone who would be easily correct in what they say in a debate.
3. You reply with more arrogance while ignoring the question.

I don't care about the arrogance, I care that you're being entitled to be correct w/o thinking that you need to give the reasons for it. Bc that's a broken way of doing things. I care about the emotional intelligence needed to think this is essentially a rap battle, interpreting something rude necessitating a reply with something rude as well, I don't think you can control yourself there.

Finally got you to the "I don't care" part lel.

Again being superficial. Yes, that is something people have said when not caring about things that matter, it pops up a lot in videos of people getting arrested & all. In this context however, it goes as in, "it's not relevant." Please do better.

It also fits with how you were demonizing me before, or your isssues with semantics.

Shattering of a dimension and a dimensional wave chasing you are entirely different things and I don't see why it doesn't bother you.

I gave a small list of how both work, therefore should anything in that list be true nothing needs to bother me.

I'm not stupid, I just used a throw away word combination to say the destruction of AD. Now who's arguing semantics?

If you trace back the replies you will see that I'm talking about the Black Hole and then you tackle that as "Magolor's 2-C attack," it stands to reason anyone would believe you confused the 2-C with the Black Hole.

You failed to account for the fact that I am arguing that the destruction we see post-fight is 3-A and the black hole feat is a supporting feat that solidifies it.

And yet again, I know, I am using one feat to support the other to make it more solid.

I didn't fail to account information I already know and that I talk about in the comment you reply to. You don't have a basis as to why I would know those things.

We do, we know crownless Magolor could make it that strong if he tried and Crowned Magolor has an attack that twists everything we see and all our surroundings, which makes it good support.

I went over that before in the comment you reply to.

If others are correct then it sets a standard across the wiki. Just because it rubs you the wrong way doesn't matter.

It doesn't rub me the wrong way for no reason, it's dogmatic. There is not a rule for it, in fact if you can make an actual rule for it I guarantee you I'll eat my shoe. I think we have agreed on things other verses disagreeed on and disagreed things other verses agree on. The idea of not being able to do so is stupid bc other verses could get things wrong, and one would need to go try to change things in verses they don't know, for context they would need to learn first. People try to make their verses accurate and that's that, for the most part. I wouldn't think any of this needs to be said, but you even disagree with me after I said so. It's very strange to me.

You don't care about anything except for your own opinions so that checks out.

Again? Same as befere, "In this context, it goes as in, "it's not relevant."" I don't literally don't care, if you weren't so focus in being arrogant maybe you wouldn't make mistakes like this. How can I don't care about anything except for my own opinions when I break down yours while understanding them time and time again, giving my reasons as to why I disagree? If anything that fits you better. Again something negative to say pops up in your mind and you just say it regardless of what references you have for its accuracy.

Additionally the black hole is not straight up 3-A by itself, I am using it to support the argument for the 3-A feat that happens at the end of the fight.

I already know and even if I didn't, you said so before.

Well you should since we're arguing about it rn. I think it holds up since it is a place that is called a universe/sky that gets destroyed and a void is left behind its shattered pieces which makes it pretty blatant 3-A.

Same as what's in the comment you reply to.

Tf are you talking about here I am literally agreeing with you here. Universe = sky you literally brought that up several times.

No, no. It's said to be a universe. Not even a sky, which bizarrely means universe in Kirby. It's called "universe." But my point is that you bring up how the area takes place in a universe as part of your evidence for the feat to be 3-A, when logically, when talking about the feat, doesn't affect the feat's power. That's just the place where the feat happened.

Prove it

Kirby & co. look into X direction, the dimensional walls come from their right. Later they're moving forwards into that X direction, the dimensional walls come befind them. And when they're gone they contract into the place where the portal was. In the interdimensinal rift areas they come from the left, right and from above, across the 5 tips of Planet Popstar.

Beyond that I appeal to common sense on the "Those details don't matter." and I leave it at that.

Technically nah since the fact that there's a void already proves that it is universal destruction.

Agree to disagree.

What I asked for is proof.


-"What proof do you want?"
-proceeds to send proof
Like bruh do you not hear yourself?

At least you're having fun.

Anyways this proved nothing since the fact that the crown did survive and has some of its original power while Magolor only collected some of the scattered power. It makes far more sense that his transformed state with the crown would be stronger than himself with some of the crown's power absorbed. Him surpassing his limits means he surpassed the limits of his normal self and nowhere does it say that he surpassed his+crown's limits.

That's your headcanon and you don't reply to the stronger argument there.

stronger than his normal self, sure, him becoming stronger than his cronwed state makes no sense since he has to absorb some of the crowns power to even get this far.

See above.

Ok sure, I agree, except that it actually supports my point since that means that the crown would be consistently strong and thus Magolor wouldn't surpass his crowned state since the crown in the game is shattered.

You don't seem to explain yourself well. The crown revived. The consistently strong crown got defeated, making Magolor at least scale. See above as to why he's stronger.

So its better to go off of statements then.

There aren't any.

changes nothing really. Like cool, the dimensions suck, it doesn't affect their spatiotemporal state.

Agree to disagree.

You didn't say any good reasons beyond it feeling off and not proving it.

Do you want me to cover all the visuals that make space broken there or can I trust you to remember them?

Then why bring it up?

That's what I asked to you, as a means to make you understand that you shouldn't.

I very much went over them and your little theory about it being a dimension for the dead doesn't make this argument any better.

You disagreed with what you could, neglected to say anything about other arguments (which to be fair, you disagree with), and now bring up the whole thing in a shorter, easier to make fun of version. You know how many times you did this already?

You didn't counter it though, how are there waves if the dimensions aren't close?

They are close enough, sure. They have to be and it makes sense with the diagram. But being close or not being close, the topic I was covering applies either way, which makes it odd that you bring that up as if it supports those dimenisons not being physically connected.

Nah, you are extrapolating a minor thing that changes once during mini bosses and trying to make it some major point when all it is is a filter that disappears the moment you kill the boss.

I'm not "extrapolating" something shown on-screen. I don't try to make it into a major point, I try to say that what we see happen, happens. So the rest of your argument it's that it's minor, thus we need to ignore it bc of it. Whereas mine is that it's an alien dimension, therefore all bets are off, and there are refs of similar things happening there.

That is very much a stretch. Every portal we've seen of this type has been a portal to a different dimension. This is consistent. If you can prove that they aren't, then prove it.

You say nothing of the speculation you use. I went over that in the comment you reply to.

except that color in those areas is different from any of the main 4 dimensions. it is dark, almost black, while other dimensions have a main color that is very presistent thoughout the background.

That doesn't counter what I said. How do you think it would counter it?

They should, just because there were a few moments of error doesn't mean we should disregard everything just because it fits your idea of it.

There are not "a few moments," there are dozens upon dozens of mistakes and made up information. Those who know Kirby lore are well aware of that.

Actually, when do you propose official translations should be ignored?

What??

"already knowing how uncommon that is": I already know that, therefore when you point it out as part of your arguments, you don't say anything new to me.

"you don't reply to them most of the time": You're replying more now, I give you that. So that can be wrong now.

They are, it's literally stated in the main descriptions for the doomers that they come from another dimension to feast on the gears so it makes sense that he pulls them from other dimensions.

You forgot things again. You're thinking the interdimensional rift areas, those have those descriptions. I said "When Magolor summons Doomers," in his boss battle.

"we don't know" is your entire argument here rn.

If by "rn" you mean "the moment I said those few words, while ignoring the rest of what I said," sure. Later I say, "But even with the rest, the lesser assumption is always talking about the same dimension." and you ignore how that applies to this part.

what do you mean we know? Where is the evidence? Every single time we see them they are used for interdimensional travel

You said that already. I meant this: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:True_Arena_Magolor_Soul's_Magolor_Cannon_combo-KsRtDLD.gif

And then he warps into a different dimension at the end of the game lmao

Not by his power, that portal opened on its own.

don't tell me what to do

You want me to not point out your mistakes. I won't. Your perception of how many you make is different than mine, imagine if I had never pointed out any mistake.

what rules? That the color shifts shouldn't instantly change when you walk a meter away when the colors are supposed to be representative of the dimensions?

Those rules. It's consistent with all the other bizarre stuff we see there.

you got them

I don't.

Which is already weird considering the other dimensions are unconnected. Why are these dimensions special now?

See the comment you reply to.

They have the same dimensional walls so it makes no sense that they aren't the same type.

You made that up, it's nonsense: If A destroys B, and A destroys C, then B and C don't have to be "the same type." They were simply targets of A, and that's that.

same goes for you, you don't want them to be separate so you do everything and pull out game mechanics to try and state your case.

Agree to disagree.

That's just because you can't argue against them so you prefer to try and paint them as meaningless trivia, even though it has all the relevance.

How do your points logically lead to your result then? Please explain to me.

touche

See above.

Except you're twisting and turning arguments to try and make them fit your perspective while I go off the things we actually see.

If it makes you feel happy to say that I do that then you do you. I argue for things we actually see too, you call them gameplay to disagree.

Lmao the guy whose entire kirby rating is based on a theory is trying to teach me that I am the one who lacks substance, even though I've stated my case and given my evidence while I had to press you for evidence on as small of a thing as Magolor being strong.

Idk where to start

• 9º time.
• You keep building your confidence with ridiculisation and being dismissible, you really can't help yourself. It's very insecure of your part. Can you see why I say this? You could have said that at any time, and you did so 8 times before, but now you bring it up as a reply to me making a negative observation. It's transparent.
• No, look: One can be wrong w/o having substance, and one can be wrong while having substance. You stated your case & gave your evidence, and you do have substance for the most part. But there are a very uncomfortable amount of times in which you don't. And a competent enough person can reach the point where they just don't claim things w/o substance in a debate, ever, it's very easy. So by those standards, don't pat yourself on the back for what you did well, try to do better.
• The example of how you needed to press me on is the thing you could have known already if you had read Magolor's profile, my mistake being assuming that you would do so.
• You also seem to have a warped view of things if you think you're the one having a hard time in the thread. There is no point in elevating average, tiny complications like that beyond what's reasonable.
• I made a CRT, they agreed to it, and I applied it, it's not mine alone. I still agree with it and can defend it. If you had a point with the theory thing, and if this was the first time you bring that up, that would be something. More taunt than argument, but effective at least.

show me

See above.

Except instead I do end up forgetting things because the stuff you could've simplified ends up being written out with improper grammar. Go by your saying and actually use fewer words and make the arguments normal instead of me having to analyze and entire paragraph to see the argument in the midst of unnecessary extrapolation and insults towards me and my skills.

• No, I'm pretty sure you forget things by youself, not bc of the grammar. One thing doesn't lead to the other, unless I were to say something incomprehensible, so it stands to reason that it's an excuse. I will work on my grammar tho.
• I go by that saying already, with other people. Again, I think you have a warped view of how awful was this thread; If you performed like this with me breaking things down in detail, imagine how you would do with me being casual. Part of the point of the saying is that it only applies to the people with the proven merits, the "good understander." It can be a friendly encouragement for someone who is not a good understander to do better and not be addressed in a longer way.
• You're exaggerating, you don't need to analyze an entire paragraph to see the argument. There may be many arguments in the paragraph or the whole paragraph may be the argument, but in a way that you can understand it way before finishing it. Show me in private 5 times you needed to do that.
• When talking about insults, one ideally refers to "the thing you're not allowed to do bc of how uncalled for & unhelpful it is." Not remarks one doesn't like bc they're witty. If you think I insulted you at any point here, call me out for it, hold me accountable for it. If not in the rule violation thread then in a private talk. I will defend myself, but if that doesn't matter to you this should: If I don't understand that I'm insulting you, I won't stop doing the same in the future. From my part, it's an opportunity to prove how one should not be offended by certain things. It's a win-win.
• Either way, you should know well that I try to help you as the goal in and of itself. If it's tied to a thread, or will make the debate better should you take what I say, I will say it. A more healthy person debates better. If I'm wrong (objectively or w/ my comment quickly dismissed), you can disagree and move on. But it clearly bothers you from what you say here and how you had thrown me actual insults for it. I think you know I'm onto something, even if you don't admit it. I think that alone can make you do better. That and I try to make you understand certain other things.

I forgot about a few things but me misunderstanding things is untrue, I went by what is written in the profiles and in the blogs.

The first thing that I remember that you disunderstood is the statement in the interview, the whole "Eficiente interprets the line "there are some elements that are revealed after clearing the story that challenge the continuity of time as a narrative" as almost definitive proof" while missing the part that says "and since there more than one passage of time, custumers are free to imagine how that would change things" After I went over that I had to tell you the implications of both things bc everything was less meaningful in your portrayal of things.

Bro you literally said "not that it wasn't destroyed already" which is very condescending. This is my reference of you being condescending.

I keep my reasons for disagreeing that you just replied to. "I wanted to remind you of that, I wanted to establish that I don't remove any value from my disagreement to your premise before." Destroyed is slang for the argument being very much wrong. You're being overly sensitive there. As in, it's not polite, ok, but to make a deal out of it, it's bizarre. I can easily imagine an adult saying that to another, being right or wrong, and the debate moves on from there w/o any issue or comment about it. Bc of how small it is. Same with teens.

I do appreciate that we can over an example rather than generalizing my behavior in a way that it is literally impossible for me to defend himself.

There's a thing called etiquette and if you can't hold that up then it means you don't know it. Every time we've argued you did this, you started getting arrogant and belittling me or others who disagree with you.

• "if you can't hold etiquette then you don't know it" is not a rule, that's made up. Etiquette doesn't mean conversations have to be dull or humorless, witty comments can fit within etiquette, as long as they are respectful enough and appropriate for the context. The issue is what you qualify as respectful enough or appropriate.
• If you generalize my behavior then I can't defend himself, I'm up against your idea of what I do.
• I believe you say it's belittling bc you're overly sensible, and that I am justified to say what I said in the context of a debate. I can only pray implying that you're overly sensible isn't considered belittling in and of itself, and that I am given the proper room to defend myself on how it is that I say I'm justified, otherwise things would be rigged. As in, you defame me, and I should have just said nothing. However I already imagine that you don't care about giving me a fair chance considering the following:
• I offered you to test out how appropriate it is something I said elsewhere, I said "If you would like me to, I can source to you how commonplace and inoffensive my words are. But talk to me elsewhere about it." and you replied "I can source you the definition of getting off your high horce but I think you can google it well enough by yourself" So, I actually give you the same offer again.

Currently I am also being condescending but that is because you started it when I stated nothing against you beforehand. The only reason I am even being lightly rude and not calling you out more seriously is because I don't wanna get into RVR.

• Well, even if I won't stop criticizing you when appropriate, you could have told me to stop with the witty nature of some of the things I say. Since you did the same, it was reasonable to assume you didn't mind. That can stop some of the condescending attitude you don't like, and that was absolutely an issue of communication.
• However, it seems clear to me that most of that condescending attitude you don't like simply comes from me being sure of myself or how I explain "me being right over something in detail." That can't be stopped bc you're concerning, taking issue, and being insecure over things that you shouldn't. I absolutely argue this is something unhealthy to overcome, not a stance that you could ever reasonably justify. You're essentially taking passive cheap damage to your stress levels and patience just by reading whatever I say, when people in this world is allowed to act the way I do in all kinds of areas, none having rules or guidelines against it. You can't live like that; As in, you can, but I when you face people like that, what are you going to do?
• Idk what RVR is.

Many would disagree

I can't put those many into question right now tho. You should be able to give your reasons by yourself.

Also what do you mean, condescending like in a casual talk, or "you need to stop doing this" condescending. If it's the latter, I have been told in good authority that I do fine, and many don't prove I need to stop doing that in any meaningful way. They will never propose a guideline of behavior that would nuke me out of the wiki bc of how contradictory their own behavior is. I also said many times already that it's no coincidence how they never report me or achieve anything when they do so. And that use tactics like talking behind my back, derail threads to defame me, and overreact to things I say or small mistakes, all as a means to disapprove me w/o needing to touch the rules. If you talk to me elsewhere, I can show you the last argument I have with those "many."

If there's something that one can be bothered by and that something is unnecessary to the argument then it means it is a useless rude comment and nothing more.

Wait so you agree with what I said? I politely disagree with the standards on "can be bothered by" being reasonable as you have them. Being hurt emotionally doesn't inherently, always make you entitled to those feelings being reasonable and have it so the perpetrator was rude. No always, there are extremes, which are unhealthy. In such a case portraying the comment as "useless" is needlessly dismissible to cope with that.

Except the one who got personal was you. You're the one who started letting personal comments seep through, not me.

With proper communication, you could have said yes to that and asked me to only leave those comments outside the thread. I'm not sure if I wouldn't have done so by myself anyway. Either way, they're also not the same type of personal, what I said to you is in reference to the thread like 90% of the time, things for you that would indirectly help the thread 10% of the time. And it is 100% of the time not the same as "Several years on the wiki and yet you can't stop being condescending to anyone you debate," since you defame me beyond what's happening here and w/o a way for me to defend myself, with how large the claim is.

Now this is really the last time I say so, talk to me elsewhere if it's personal (not related to the thread), or state how you want things to be. Meaning, re-draft your comment if it's 1 long one. If you judge my character, mindset in the thread, or standards based on my arguments here only, and you think that relates to the thread, keep that if you feel like it.

But the fact that the colors shift along means that it is illogical since the colors are supposed to be the main color of the dimension. If these are 4 dimensions stacked up on top of each other then there isn't supposed to be a place where all 4 dimensions can be viewed simultaneously.

We don't know if there are "4 dimensions stacked up on top of each other" in the same way as 4 balls touching each other. The mechanics are are wide as all the ways space can be manipulated.

 

[Eficiente]

Almost all the main stances in Arceus0x VS Eficiente involve at least one of the claims that the other person's idea proves nothing, changes nothing, is nonsense, has arrogance, has a lack of knowledge, and so on, all while the responses are annoying to read due to disorganization. There ought to be a more productive way of going about this. I don't see a meaningful understanding being reached between the discussers any time soon.

I see Arceus0x progressively understanding what I say and see him understanding more in the future. From my part, that's for you to judge.

Maybe replying to the whole thing at once is a bad habit in this case, and we should focus on the more meaningful parts there.

 

[Arceus0x]

-

I'mma be real with you man, I got sick and I don't really have the energy to reply to a novel-worth of arguments
I'll let you keep your 2-C but I want a compromise.
You disagree with the 4 universes, sure I could tackle it when I am feeling better.
For now I want a compromise - whether you like it or not the 4 universes, even if connected, are still something that is affected by Magolor's power as we see the waves. Since that is how it is, they should operate under the same time. Since it is as such, this should add a universe to the current 15-16 universes, making it 16-17.
Additionally, we should just stop with the variable and accept it as 16 universes, add the 1 connected dimension and make it plainly 17 universes.

 

[Eficiente]

I'mma be real with you man, I got sick and I don't really have the energy to reply to a novel-worth of arguments

It's ok. Get better, and then you can have all the time in the world to debate this, if you still want to. It doesn't have to go down as fast as most threads go, take all the time you need and I will accept that. Although if it does come to that, you can bring your points to a private chat as to not drag others into it and we can discuss there.

I'll let you keep your 2-C but I want a compromise.
You disagree with the 4 universes, sure I could tackle it when I am feeling better.
For now I want a compromise - whether you like it or not the 4 universes, even if connected, are still something that is affected by Magolor's power as we see the waves. Since that is how it is, they should operate under the same time. Since it is as such, this should add a universe to the current 15-16 universes, making it 16-17.

add the 1 connected dimension and make it plainly 17 universes.

Well, a compromise for the sake of a compromise is no good. A compromise is to be deserved to be applied, since we're not 2 sides in conflict and this is a debate to understand what makes the most sense.

I have my reasons as to why I believe we shouldn't believe that those dimensions are universe-sized, instead each one being interstellar in size. You would need to counter those, or stick to your reasons and see what happens. I can also go above and repost my reasons if you would like me to.

Additionally, we should just stop with the variable and accept it as 16 universes,

Fortunately this part is easy for anyone to keep up with: 2-C being "15 or 16 universes" comes from the fact that we know 15 universes were affected, and this started in some universe. So, if that was already one of the universes affected, it's 15 universes. If it's a new one being affected, it's 16 universes. There is no confirmation about it.

Well, it's a tiny bit more complex than that: The diagram of Return to Dream Land shows that last universe being at the "bottom" of Another Dimension, almost as if being a sort of special dimension next to the ones above it. How canon is that? It was presumably used when making the og game and showed in a public showcase. The real problem is, it's a diagram, the info is true but the sizes and proportions can be exaggerated based on importance & the space used to make everything fit. That may not be "a dimension at the bottom of all other dimensions," but "a dimension at the bottom, yes, but in line with all the other dimensions there." As in, there is a series of dimensions there, this one can be at the buttom within that series, or at the bottom outside of that series. And if it's the former the 2-C feat may remain as "15 universes being affected."

 

[Arceus0x]

Whatevs man, I'll make a thread about the extra universes once I get better

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

I agree that a re-proposal in the future would be a more beneficial way of settling the discussion than continuing the thread as it is now. Debating extensively about advanced level Kirby lore with a sickness is a rough time. Should this thread be closed now?