OMORI if it was good and didn't suck (OMORI Revisions)

[azontr]

I finished playing OMORI and it SUCKS and I HATE IT (lie). And so I looked on OMORI profiles, and realized they had some things that I didn't like. I'm going through basically everything to find if there's things to revise or change, so here's the first batch of relatively(?) simple changes that aren't simple and are actually quite complicated

• Saving and Loading: Is a game mechanic. Considering that you can save even in Faraway Town, where Sunny certainly does not have the power to control timelines, it is very unlikely that Sunny or Omori are capable of resetting the timeline through saving and loading. Hence, "Can SAVE using MARI's picnic basket, allowing him to make new timelines (without it, he can only LOAD, allowing him to travel to other timelines or reset the current timeline to a point in the past)" should be removed. Saving and Loading isn't even specific to Omori, since you can save and load with any of the friends tagged while in Headspace, so it's evidently not a special ability.

• Heat resistance: The main cast are capable of withstanding being set on fire by Lucius, so heat resistance should be added to their profile.

• Weapon Mastery: Omori and Aubrey (Headspace) should have Weapon Mastery like Hero and Kel, for obvious reasons. Omori personally has mastered J. SHROOM's intricate cutting technique, which allows him to easily slice through the hard bulbs containing other shrooms, a technique that takes decades to master, and they can also battle against the Sprout Moles in Sweetheart's castle, most of which have trained in the art of combat for years.

• Flight: Sweetheart can fly with her umbrella. I would suggest it be limited since people float with Umbrellas all the time in fiction, but Sweetheart doesn't descend with her umbrella, she just floats across the distance, so I think she can just use her umbrella to fly.

• AFRAID & ERASE: ERASE should be noted that it reduces defense, if survived. I also suggest that Omori and Something's AFRAID be layered in some way. When fighting SOMETHING, it will passively inflict Afraid as soon as the fight begins. CALM DOWN negates this effect and allows Sunny to be unaffected by SOMETHING's passive fear, granting a resistance to fear manipulation. In later fights, SOMETHING can inflict fear even after the CALM DOWN skill has been used, and Omori is capable of doing the same and outright disabling the skill. Hence, I believe Omori and SOMETHING should have one (1) layer to their AFRAID hax.

• SOMETHING Range: SOMETHING should have Interdimensional range with teleportation, as it can appear in basically any of the spaces, whether it be Headspace or Whitespace. It should inherently be able to appear anywhere within the game and is even capable of locking Omori/Sunny out of whitespace.

• Faraway Stats: The CRT that removed 9-C stats from the Real-World friends uses the reasoning that Aubrey had to have been holding back her strength when fighting Kel and Sunny, as they don't receive notable injury from her baseball bat, despite being wounded by objects such as knives. This is faulty reasoning for a couple of reasons: One, a knife and a baseball bat cause entirely different forms of damage, and a getting hit with a baseball bat, even if it has nails in it, is still blunt force while a knife is piercing force, and we all know that piercing is much more dangerous than blunt force. Two, it would be completely impossible for Aubrey to hold her strength back to the extent that she would hit Sunny and Kel with a bat, and they wouldn't come out with wounds. To avoid notable injury with from getting hit by a bat with nails in it, Aubrey would've had to have been swinging it as slow as a snail, and if she was swinging with barely any speed or force, then Kel would've noted it. It's unlikely Aubrey was holding back and more so that the game simply doesn't find it necessary to display all damage taken in dialogue once the fight is over— unless it's a significant event like Sunny having a knife (which is story relevant, as Aubrey brings up the fact Sunny swung around a knife like a psycho later in the game), I don't think it's a sound argument that just because the game doesn't acknowledge damage taken in gameplay that the damage didn't happen. Hence, the 9-C stats that were removed should be reinstated.
  • I can't obtain a scan or video, but Aubrey is also capable of launching Kel into the air with a single hand while they're reading comics. So, Aubrey is at the very least not an average human in terms of strength. EDIT: I obtained a video.

And that's about it. So yeah.

 

[azontr]

Bump
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/1056800628099256360/1262996937548759071/trump-mewing-sigma.gif?ex=6698a10f&is=66974f8f&hm=a43641422085fd388c88832e33721c511a3d5b1ca86221434359fa153e707a8b&

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

First agreement for your thread

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

I strongly agree that the fact we list "Save and Load" as an actual mechanic in the verse is frankly, extremely weird. As it would imply Faraway Sunny, someone with no preternatural abilities, is somehow able to manipulate and alter time without any canon explanation for it.

I have no idea how that even got past, without some kind of CRT.

 

[azontr]

True.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

The Save and Load Stuff is so clearly a game mechanic, big agree on that. Rest seems fine. So that's an agree from me. Not sure about the layered fear hax, rather neutral there.

 

[azontr]

Unfortunately we only accept agrees or disagrees in this part of town. Neutrals are banished to the Abyss. I don't make the rules.

 

[Zabazab]

preternatural

Put the thesaurus down

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

Put the thesaurus down

I LIKE THE WORD OK

 

[azontr]

Letting yourself get punked in public is crazy.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

I agree with all the revision proposals except for the one I address below.

• Faraway Stats: The CRT that removed 9-C stats from the Real-World friends uses the reasoning that Aubrey had to have been holding back her strength when fighting Kel and Sunny, as they don't receive notable injury from her baseball bat, despite being wounded by objects such as knives. This is faulty reasoning for a couple of reasons: One, a knife and a baseball bat cause entirely different forms of damage, and a getting hit with a baseball bat, even if it has nails in it, is still blunt force while a knife is piercing force, and we all know that piercing is much more dangerous than blunt force. Two, it would be completely impossible for Aubrey to hold her strength back to the extent that she would hit Sunny and Kel with a bat, and they wouldn't come out with wounds. To avoid notable injury with from getting hit by a bat with nails in it, Aubrey would've had to have been swinging it as slow as a snail, and if she was swinging with barely any speed or force, then Kel would've noted it. It's unlikely Aubrey was holding back and more so that the game simply doesn't find it necessary to display all damage taken in dialogue once the fight is over— unless it's a significant event like Sunny having a knife (which is story relevant, as Aubrey brings up the fact Sunny swung around a knife like a psycho later in the game), I don't think it's a sound argument that just because the game doesn't acknowledge damage taken in gameplay that the damage didn't happen. Hence, the 9-C stats that were removed should be reinstated.

Even though your assessment raises points that are worth keeping in mind, I think it led you to an unreliable conclusion. I think it's more reliable to consider Aubrey as having hit Sunny and Kel in a way that only did regular damage, as was shown to be the case in gameplay, rather than to consider Aubrey as having hit Sunny and Kel in a way that would've immediately injured them enough for them to stop fighting if they weren't very durable.

It's true that a knife is a sharp weapon and a baseball bat is a blunt weapon, but the different kinds of damage they do doesn't make them completely incomparable all of a sudden. A knife and a baseball bat are still both objects that can be used as dangerous weapons to give injuries to another person. Sunny injured Aubrey with one hit, which was due to the sharpness of his knife, yet Sunny and Kel could take multiple hits from Aubrey using her baseball bat, which was only regular damage rather than an injury like breaking their bones to prevent them from fighting back. All three of them are comparable to each other, so it's not as though Sunny and Kel are simply that strong. The description for the nail baseball bat is: "AUBREY's weapon of choice. More dangerous than a STEAK KNIFE." You can see this when Aubrey is considered as in Sunny's team during “ONE DAY LEFT”. Aubrey is portrayed as the strongest out of the three when they have their tools, but Aubrey is only a delinquent, not a savage who would try splitting open their skulls for defending Basil, so during the fight in question, it's most likely that Aubrey wasn't too careless. Aubrey didn't have to be "holding back" to the point of swinging her bat "as slow as a snail," as she was still trying to injure her opponents and would've succeeded by doing enough damage to make them no longer able to fight. She just wasn't trying to do it all at once to risk doing more damage than she intended to do.

For the raw numbers, look at this: "KEL attacks AUBREY! AUBREY takes 33 damage!" "AUBREY attacks KEL! KEL takes 34 damage!" "[SUNNY] attacks AUBREY! AUBREY takes 61 damage!" How can it follow that Aubrey's weapon is more dangerous than Sunny's when Aubrey did 34 damage, Sunny did 61 damage, and Kel is a character comparable to them both? The answer is that there is another factor, such as Aubrey not having struck in a way that did the full damage she could have done.

 

[azontr]

It's true that a knife is a sharp weapon and a baseball bat is a blunt weapon, but the different kinds of damage they do doesn't make them completely incomparable all of a sudden.

Blunt damage and piercing damage are not at all comparable. Just because you can endure a punch to the gut doesn't mean you can endure a stab to the gut. They ARE incomparable, which is why piercing weapons are dangerous; you don't need to apply much force to do major damage with them.

Sunny injured Aubrey with one hit, which was due to the sharpness of his knife, yet Sunny and Kel could take multiple hits from Aubrey using her baseball bat, which was only regular damage rather than an injury like breaking their bones to prevent them from fighting back.

No matter how much she holds back, if she hits Kel and Sunny with a bat that has nails sticking out of it with the intent to harm them, it doesn't matter if it's "regular damage", it would still be severe bruising. If Sunny and Kel can endure these wounds, even if they don't break bones, they still scale.

We've never required typically severe levels of damage to be necessary for scaling whatsoever, and I feel like most of your premise hinges on such an idea.

The description for the nail baseball bat is: "AUBREY's weapon of choice. More dangerous than a STEAK KNIFE."

This argument only works if you look at the words "more dangerous" and use no critical thought as to what this means at all. A baseball bat with nails in it can be more dangerous than a knife for a variety of reasons— it's longer/larger, it's heavier, it has NAILS in it. In a confrontation, you would very easily be more wary of someone with a huge bat than against someone who only has a knife.

but Aubrey is only a delinquent, not a savage who would try splitting open their skulls for defending Basil

For one, we can't possibly know where Aubrey struck them. Even if blows she dealt were inflicted on the body/torso, they would still be dangerous and enduring them would still scale them to the output of the weapon. I agree she wasn't trying to kill them so she didn't hit them in their neck or some shit, but she doesn't have to strike a vital spot with the intent to maim for Sunny and Kel to scale to her bat.

Aubrey didn't have to be "holding back" to the point of swinging her bat "as slow as a snail," as she was still trying to injure her opponents and would've succeeded by doing enough damage to make them no longer able to fight.

For them to come out with no notable wounds she objectively had to be swinging that slowly. The nature of the weapon makes it impossible for her to have inflicted no notable wounds while using any amount of speed or force— it's a wooden bat with nails in it, if you get hit anywhere with it, it doesn't matter if the person hitting you is holding back, if it connects, that's a wound that's going to put you out of commission.

It's simply not possible to not harm a person with a weapon like this, unless you're just not trying, and Sunny and Kel take damage, so evidently we know she is trying.

How can it follow that Aubrey's weapon is more dangerous than Sunny's when Aubrey did 34 damage, Sunny did 61 damage, and Kel is a character comparable to them both?

Read above, you're thinking in terms of a game setting when Faraway is the "real world". A wooden bat with nails in it can absolutely pose more of a threat in a fight than a STEAK KNIFE, even if it can't necessarily do more lethal damage.

 

[Nierre]

got baited into thinking you hated the game and came in here guns ablazing.

this isfine

 

[azontr]

got baited into thinking you hated the game and came in here guns ablazing.

Erm, I do, it sucks and I hate it....

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Blunt damage and piercing damage are not at all comparable. Just because you can endure a punch to the gut doesn't mean you can endure a stab to the gut. They ARE incomparable, which is why piercing weapons are dangerous; you don't need to apply much force to do major damage with them.

That is true. I need to be more specific. What I mean is any weapon can make a target become too injured to continue fighting, even though the exact injuries can vary. Even though a knife and a baseball bat provide different injuries, they're still both capable of hurting someone enough to provide the same practicality of stopping someone from fighting back immediately.

No matter how much she holds back, if she hits Kel and Sunny with a bat that has nails sticking out of it with the intent to harm them, it doesn't matter if it's "regular damage", it would still be severe bruising. If Sunny and Kel can endure these wounds, even if they don't break bones, they still scale.

We've never required typically severe levels of damage to be necessary for scaling whatsoever, and I feel like most of your premise hinges on such an idea.

For them to come out with no notable wounds she objectively had to be swinging that slowly. The nature of the weapon makes it impossible for her to have inflicted no notable wounds while using any amount of speed or force— it's a wooden bat with nails in it, if you get hit anywhere with it, it doesn't matter if the person hitting you is holding back, if it connects, that's a wound that's going to put you out of commission.

It's simply not possible to not harm a person with a weapon like this, unless you're just not trying.

I interpret the damage Sunny and Kel can take during the battle as something like bruising. Damage taken in Faraway Town is best healed by bandages and first aid kits, so they probably get bruised even though we don't see their appearances change. I'm not familiar with getting hit by a baseball bat, but it seems normal to get bruised from being hit by one, when the wielder doesn't want to kill the target. I'm reluctant to count this as Street level durability.

This argument only works if you look at the words "more dangerous" and use no critical thought as to what this means at all. A baseball bat with nails in it can be more dangerous than a knife for a variety of reasons— it's longer/larger, it's heavier, it has NAILS in it. In a confrontation, you would very easily be more wary of someone with a huge bat than against someone who only has a knife.

Read above, you're thinking in terms of a game setting when Faraway is the "real world". A wooden bat with nails in it can absolutely pose more of a threat in a fight than a STEAK KNIFE, even if it can't necessarily do more lethal damage.

That's my point. The baseball bat is indeed the stronger one. With the baseball bat being the stronger one, Sunny's knife having been more effective than it means Aubrey was trying to not be too rough. I'm pretty sure a baseball bat with nails could be lethal if the wielder intended to use it that way. The nails could cause grievous pokes.

For one, we can't possibly know where Aubrey struck them. Even if blows she dealt were inflicted on the body/torso, they would still be dangerous and enduring them would still scale them to the output of the weapon. I agree she wasn't trying to kill them so she didn't hit them in their neck or some shit, but she doesn't have to strike a vital spot with the intent to maim for Sunny and Kel to scale to her bat.

I won't protest this part.

 

[azontr]

That is true. I need to be more specific. What I mean is any weapon can make a target become too injured to continue fighting, even though the exact injuries can vary. Even though a knife and a baseball bat provide different injuries, they're still both capable of hurting someone enough to provide the same practicality of stopping someone from fighting back immediately.

Correct, but the point is that a knife can do this much more effectively than a bat, as piercing and cutting attacks are more difficult to endure than typical blunt damage. Both are forms of injury and both can put anyone out of commission, the point is that one is more effective at that.

I interpret the damage Sunny and Kel can take during the battle as something like bruising. Damage taken in Faraway Town is best healed by bandages and first aid kits, so they probably get bruised even though we don't see their appearances change. I'm not familiar with getting hit by a baseball bat, but it seems normal to get bruised from being hit by one, when the wielder doesn't want to kill the target. I'm reluctant to count this as Street level durability.

Does this not support my premise, though? If they gained bruises or any relevant damage, then that proves Aubrey was attempting to harm them, even if not to a lethal extent, and that they do scale to 9-C. The original premise of the downgrade was that a lack of bruising or injury proves that Aubrey had to have been holding back.

Can you explain your reluctance, if you would, because I don't seem to understand? Do you really believe Aubrey was holding back that much?

That's my point. The baseball bat is indeed the stronger one. With the baseball bat being the stronger one, Sunny's knife having been more effective than it means Aubrey was trying to not be too rough. I'm pretty sure a baseball bat with nails could be lethal if the wielder intended to use it that way. The nails could cause grievous pokes.

I don't believe you understood me. My point is that lethality does not always decide danger. If I poked you really hard in the stomach with the front end of a bat, that'd hurt a lot, but it's likely not going to break your skin. If I stab you, it's going to break skin and muscle alike. A knife has greater lethality, as in, it does more damage, but that doesn't mean that strictly it's more dangerous than a bat with nails, as a lot of factors (such as the things I mentioned) can determine danger in battle.

This is true in both weapons and in actual characters and fighters— the one with more power is not always the most dangerous fighter.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Correct, but the point is that a knife can do this much more effectively than a bat, as piercing and cutting attacks are more difficult to endure than typical blunt damage. Both are forms of injury and both can put anyone out of commission, the point is that one is more effective at that.

I don't believe you understood me. My point is that lethality does not always decide danger. If I poked you really hard in the stomach with the front end of a bat, that'd hurt a lot, but it's likely not going to break your skin. If I stab you, it's going to break skin and muscle alike. A knife has greater lethality, as in, it does more damage, but that doesn't mean that strictly it's more dangerous than a bat with nails, as a lot of factors (such as the things I mentioned) can determine danger in battle.

This is true in both weapons and in actual characters and fighters— the one with more power is not always the most dangerous fighter.

I like this explanation. I don't want to protest it.

Does this not support my premise, though? If they gained bruises or any relevant damage, then that proves Aubrey was attempting to harm them, even if not to a lethal extent, and that they do scale to 9-C. The original premise of the downgrade was that a lack of bruising or injury proves that Aubrey had to have been holding back.

Can you explain your reluctance, if you would, because I don't seem to understand? Do you really believe Aubrey was holding back that much?

I do believe Aubrey was attempting to somewhat harm them and they can survive damage from her, but I also agree with the following part of the original downgrade: "But a bat with nails would realistically cause even more damage than that, you'd have to be superhumanly tough to survive it without wounds, which clearly isn't the case here as a steak knife works perfectly well, even when used by Sunny who's likely physically weaker than Aubrey since he's a hikikomori. There's also the fact that all the real world fights are between kids your age, I think it's unrealistic to say all of these teens are pro athlete tier." While I like your explanation about the difference between the dangerousness of a knife and a baseball bat, Aubrey's bat has nails, which would've realistically caused Sunny and Kel to bleed, but they didn't bleed. They still took damage and got bruised, but since they would've been bleeding if Aubrey weren't trying to prevent that from happening, it's implied that she was being careful to not cause too much damage at once, and since the characters are portrayed as weaker than "pro athlete tier," the conclusion drawn from interpreting this as meaning Aubrey was aiming to use less than Streel level damage is consistent.

 

[azontr]

The characters aren't really portrayed as any real tier, though. This argument has always bugged me— just because characters aren't "portrayed" as a certain tier doesn't mean that aren't a certain tier. If there aren't anti-feats or anything contradicting them being on that level of strength, then I don't really see why we would not index them as the most accurate tier due to some arbitrary standards of "portrayal".

If we want to be heavily particular about what they are portrayed as, Aubrey is capable of easily launching Kel into the air and across a room with a single hand (the link to which I posted at the bottom of the OP). Such a feat is definitely more than just "average teen level", for obvious reasons.

 

[InfiniteDay]

sure

 

[azontr]

Facts.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

The characters aren't really portrayed as any real tier, though. This argument has always bugged me— just because characters aren't "portrayed" as a certain tier doesn't mean that aren't a certain tier. If there aren't anti-feats or anything contradicting them being on that level of strength, then I don't really see why we would not index them as the most accurate tier due to some arbitrary standards of "portrayal".

If we want to be heavily particular about what they are portrayed as, Aubrey is capable of easily launching Kel into the air and across a room with a single hand (the link to which I posted at the bottom of the OP). Such a feat is definitely more than just "average teen level", for obvious reasons.

Character portrayal is important when analyzing context, and analyzing context is important when trying to index characters as accurately as possible. Counting feats versus anti-feats is only quantitative observation, but qualitative observation such as considering the narrative itself are essential in accurately representing the characters in the processes and conclusions we make. When I think of what counts as something like "consistent," I don't only think about what demonstrations occur the most often, I also consider whether or not something is "consistent" with the character's purpose and place in their setting, among other similar factors. The characters in Faraway Town have the context of being realistic and practically superpowerless, in major contrast to the fantastic events that can take place in Headspace. Sunny has the context of having been home for years doing nothing to improve himself, which are characteristics of someone who lacks peak human physical characteristics. It isn't arbitrary for me to point these out, since they are relevant to what is (qualitatively) consistent in the setting we're discussing.

Aubrey is strong, so it makes sense for her to be able to launch Kel a few meters away in a casual scenario. Aubrey might even be able to do it in a serious scenario, but we never see this during any serious scenarios.

 

[azontr]

That is, by definition, arbitrary though. That is applying made-up standards of "realism" to a setting to go against the feats that have no direct contradictions. Yes, Faraway is meant to be a parallel to the "Real World", but it isn't actually the real world, and we can only use "realism" as an excuse to deny the showings so much before it moves into the territory of simply ignoring what happens on the screen. If the characters weren't meant to be this powerful, they simply wouldn't be shown as this powerful, and it isn't anymore complicated than that.

I would likely agree with Sunny not being on this level due to his general inactivity over 4 years, though. But to begin with, I believe the 9-C ratings were only "possibly" ratings, so it's not like we're even going to be rating him as solidly "peak human" anyways.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

That is, by definition, arbitrary though. That is applying made-up standards of "realism" to a setting to go against the feats that have no direct contradictions. Yes, Faraway is meant to be a parallel to the "Real World", but it isn't actually the real world, and we can only use "realism" as an excuse to deny the showings so much before it moves into the territory of simply ignoring what happens on the screen. If the characters weren't meant to be this powerful, they simply wouldn't be shown as this powerful, and it isn't anymore complicated than that.

Maybe you think they're made-up standards because the versus battles community often neglects discussing them in regards to its endeavors, but it's certainly not something I conjured one day to make supposed feats look unimpressive. Analyzing the context and making qualitative observations is a part of analyzing fiction that lets us factor in all the individual pieces of evidence as a whole, including events that are neither feats nor anti-feats yet still relevant to what is being analyzed. I learned the importance of this over time, rather than having made it up on a whim. Also, my idea isn't the appeal to reality fallacy like you're implying it is, if that's even an official fallacy. I'm not claiming that settings that are meant to be the "real world" can't have fantastic features. One of the reasons I love fiction is because it isn't bound by realism. What I am claiming is that Faraway Town in particular is an example of a realistic setting that is accordingly realistic and that can be directly compared to a separate unrealistic fantastic setting (that is Headspace) in the same story.

I would likely agree with Sunny not being on this level due to his general inactivity over 4 years, though. But to begin with, I believe the 9-C ratings were only "possibly" ratings, so it's not like we're even going to be rating him as solidly "peak human" anyways.

Right, I forgot they were only "possibly" ratings. In that case, I don't mind this passing, since it acknowledges that there are other well-thought-out interpretations of the information.

 

[azontr]

If you have no issues with the possibly rating, then I believe there's no need to continue the debate for the sake of not wasting time. The profile would list them as "10-B, possibly 9-C" rather than just "Possibly 9-C", cause the old crappy 2021 profiles had them listed as that for some reason.

 

[the_doctor]

I strongly agree that the fact we list "Save and Load" as an actual mechanic in the verse is frankly, extremely weird. As it would imply Faraway Sunny, someone with no preternatural abilities, is somehow able to manipulate and alter time without any canon explanation for it.

I have no idea how that even got past, without some kind of CRT.

So real, i really confused

 

[the_doctor]

Agree af

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

If you have no issues with the possibly rating, then I believe there's no need to continue the debate for the sake of not wasting time. The profile would list them as "10-B, possibly 9-C" rather than just "Possibly 9-C", cause the old crappy 2021 profiles had them listed as that for some reason.

Yes. Thanks for the chat.

 

[azontr]

Bump

 

[Armorchompy]

Disagree with 9-C even as a possibly. These are normal teenagers who lose fights to other teenagers, 9-C makes zero sense and is based on a quick gag that's probably inflated by the limited graphics, and the assumption that Audrey was swinging at full force in a fight that gets interrupted the second gets cut up a bit.

Agree with the rest.

 

[azontr]

and the assumption that Audrey was swinging at full force in a fight that gets interrupted the second gets cut up a bit.

Aubrey holding back in of itself is an assumption based on nothing. I can stab a pro athlete with a knife and they can get hurt or put out of commission— being 9-C doesn't mean you can tank getting stabbed if you don't have a calc or something. With all due respect, your disagreement is a complete nothing burger.

Kel is also literally an aspiring professional athlete so like he's not even just a normal teenager.

I'm reluctant to count your disagreement because you haven't really addressed anything I've said, but I will anyways.

 

[Armorchompy]

Aubrey holding back in of itself is an assumption based on nothing. I can stab a pro athlete with a knife and they can get hurt or put out of commission— being 9-C doesn't mean you can tank getting stabbed if you don't have a calc or something. With all due respect, your disagreement is a complete nothing burger.

The fact that they didn't get stabbed is obvious evidence she wasn't swinging with much force because if she was they'd be wounded seriously. Even if you do wanna say she did swing at a reasonable level of strength, eventual injuries can be abstracted away (a nail bat is inevitably going to cause cuts unless you're saying they're durable enough for it to just bounce off with no damage, which is even sillier) and just not dying doesn't make them scale to 9-C, she's a 16 years old girl who probably barely knows how to use the thing and is on the verge of an emotional breakdown, she's not gonna be swinging that hard on her former friends.

Kel is also literally an aspiring professional athlete so like he's not even just a normal teenager.

That doesn't really mean much either. Someone his size and his age being athletic wouldn't get him anywhere near 9-C.

 

[azontr]

The fact that they didn't get stabbed is obvious evidence she wasn't swinging with much force because if she was they'd be wounded seriously.

For them to have no cuts or bruises she would have to have been swinging with no force whatsoever, which is an even sillier interpretation. If you read the OP, I already addressed this:

the game simply doesn't find it necessary to display all damage taken in dialogue once the fight is over— unless it's a significant event like Sunny having a knife (which is story relevant, as Aubrey brings up the fact Sunny swung around a knife like a psycho later in the game)

You can literally go to Othermart and purchase bandages and first aid kits to heal damage taken from the fight, lol. It's still an RPG, they aren't going to break down every injury dealt in meticulous detail after every fight.

and just not dying doesn't make them scale to 9-C, she's a 16 years old girl who probably barely knows how to use the thing

You can't prove she doesn't know how to use the thing. For all we know, this is a weapon Aubrey has been using for years before the fight took place, during the 4 year period Sunny was being a goon, or at the very least during the time period she's been hanging out with her friend group. Her being 16 doesn't make it impossible for her to know how to literally just swing a hunk of wood with nails in it.

and is on the verge of an emotional breakdown,

What? She's not on the verge of an emotional breakdown whatsoever. She's as stable as she can possibly be given the circumstances and is actively taunting Sunny and Kel before they fight for the first time.

The only time she's in a state like that is during the church fight, where yeah, I can see your point kinda, but she's not getting on her knees and bawling her eyes out, she's violently lashing out after getting confronted by the people she thinks have abandoned her. She yells, in big bold shaky letters, "OR I'LL COME AT YOU FIRST!!" before attacking Kel and Sunny in a church, where she goes to mourn Mari's death, a place she would never start a fight unless she was angry enough to hurt somebody. This is a violent breakdown that would only prompt her to hit them even harder— which she actually does, because her hits do more damage in the church than they do in the park.

That doesn't really mean much either. Someone his size and his age being athletic wouldn't get him anywhere near 9-C.

What is "near 9-C" to you, to begin with? Our tiering system page says "Olympic level athletes an trained martial artists", yet not all Olympic level athletes are going to be superior to the average person who works out in every possible physical aspect, nor is a martial artist depending on what they practice.

Any criteria you could lay out that says any and all hypothetical training Kel would be doing could never get him to 9-C is inherently arbitrary.

 

[Armorchompy]

You can literally go to Othermart and purchase bandages and first aid kits to heal damage taken from the fight, lol. It's still an RPG, they aren't going to break down every injury dealt in meticulous detail after every fight.

The entire point of that very same fight is to show you that the real world isn't operating by RPG rules and that people will react realistically to injuries?

I'm gonna be real Aubrey's nail bat just makes contextually no sense whatsoever though. Like Omocat just clearly thought it'd be cool to give her one without thinking at all of if it fit in the setting. Everyone freaks out when Sunny pulls out a kitchen knife meanwhile she's swinging around a much deadlier and intentionally crafted weapon, shit doesn't make sense

That doesn't mean we should go "yeah we don't see it but they're all bleeding and injured and as far as they know dying from tetanus" in a fight that gets ended the second you give her a bit of a cut

You can't prove she doesn't know how to use the thing. For all we know, this is a weapon Aubrey has been using for years before the fight took place, during the 4 year period Sunny was being a goon, or at the very least during the time period she's been hanging out with her friend group. Her being 16 doesn't make it impossible for her to know how to literally just swing a hunk of wood with nails in it.

Using it on who? I understand she's a ruffian but she's not going around hospitalizing people.

What? She's not on the verge of an emotional breakdown whatsoever. She's as stable as she can possibly be given the circumstances and is actively taunting Sunny and Kel before they fight for the first time.

Yeah, and in that one she's clearly just trying to boss them around. Like no matter what she's not swinging with intent to kill/cripple, she's aggressive and upset at them but she's not a psychopath.

What is "near 9-C" to you, to begin with? Our tiering system page says "Olympic level athletes an trained martial artists", yet not all Olympic level athletes are going to be superior to the average person who works out in every possible physical aspect, nor is a martial artist depending on what they practice.

Any criteria you could lay out that says any and all hypothetical training Kel would be doing could never get him to 9-C is inherently arbitrary.

A teenager is incredibly far away from an adult in terms of physical potential, their bodies haven't finished developing yet, which is why most sports see athletes hitting their peak in their mid 20s (and why someone playing in the big leagues before like, 20, is a very rare occasion). Add to that that Kel's pretty short and not actually training for a combat sport and he's nowhere near 9-C (He also just visibly isn't that buff). I'll grant you he's 10-A though.

 

[azontr]

The entire point of that very same fight is to show you that the real world isn't operating by RPG rules and that people will react realistically to injuries?

Okay but that's the issue. Kel and Sunny literally cannot have gotten no notable injuries from being hit with a bat with nails in it, unless two things happened: 1. Aubrey was holding back. 2. They tanked it.

We know they probably didn't just tank it, because you can purchase normal medical supplies that would treat wounds you'd typically get from being bludgeoned with a bat. Which, if they weren't injured, they wouldn't need bandaids or first aid kits.

And it's even more unlikely she was holding back, because for her to hold back to the extent that Kel and Sunny appeared to have just tanked her blows, she would've had to have been putting basically no force behind her hits. We can both agree that a wooden bat with nails in it inherently is just a weapon that if you hit someone with it, even if you aren't following through all the way, it's going to hurt like hell and cause major.

If Aubrey was holding back to the point Kel and Sunny could seem perfectly okay, then Kel would've noted this— but he doesn't, because for most of the future events he maintains the stance that shes just being a b*tch and a bully, and never once does he say "oh shes clearly holding back she must still care about us!" He only makes up with her when Hero steps in, and she explains her abandonment issues. Aubrey holding back would be a major plot point but it's never made a point.

That doesn't mean we should go "yeah we don't see it but they're all bleeding and injured and as far as they know dying from tetanus" in a fight that gets ended the second you give her a bit of a cut

Okay but this applies to literally every other attack in the game. Why is Aubrey getting cut with a knife noted but not having a basketball thrown at her face? You can't make an exception for the knife being noted and yet say that every other attack actually does no damage whatsoever and they're all just holding back.

Using it on who? I understand she's a ruffian but she's not going around hospitalizing people.

You don't have to violently bludgeon a man to death with a bat to know how to swing a bat. Like, I imagine people who play baseball can swing a baseball bat rather accurately but aren't using said skill to just BEAT PEOPLE.

Not saying Aubrey is a baseball player or that she's a skill god (though she is in my heart), but like, she's not just a stupid little baby swinging something to big for her britches.

Yeah, and in that one she's clearly just trying to boss them around

Wdym bro she literally challenges them to a 2v1 fight and threatens to get them back for this if that's bossing someone around then that's the bossiest ass mf I've seen in my life. This is just silly now.

Like no matter what she's not swinging with intent to kill/cripple, she's aggressive and upset at them but she's not a psychopath.

Okay but she doesn't have to be swinging with the intent to maim them to death lol. Like, yeah, she wasn't trying to KILL THEM, but the intent is very clearly to hurt them badly.

A teenager is incredibly far away from an adult in terms of physical potential

This really kinda depends on genetics, as I've seen teenagers who are taller and larger than any adults I know.

Add to that that Kel's pretty short and not actually training for a combat sport

I wouldn't think that combat sport training is inherently anymore intense than training for other sports where you have to run around while outmoving multiple people at once. The point wasn't to prove that Kel is 9-C because of his training anyways, but rather that he's not "just a normal teenager".

 

[Armorchompy]

We know they probably didn't just tank it, because you can purchase normal medical supplies that would treat wounds you'd typically get from being bludgeoned with a bat. Which, if they weren't injured, they wouldn't need bandaids or first aid kits.

I understand you're claiming that the blunt force is being withstood, not the cuts, but like, you can very easily swing a nail bat with enough force to cause bleeding but not enough to break bones, one happening doesn't imply the other.

Okay but this applies to literally every other attack in the game. Why is Aubrey getting cut with a knife noted but not having a basketball thrown at her face? You can't make an exception for the knife being noted and yet say that every other attack actually does no damage whatsoever and they're all just holding back.

A basketball doesn't do nearly as much damage as a knife? Like at absolute most it's gonna break your nose, but it's not something that immediately becomes a threat to someone's life the second you pull it out like a knife is, it's probably less threatening than a punch.

Not saying Aubrey is a baseball player or that she's a skill god (though she is in my heart), but like, she's not just a stupid little baby swinging something to big for her britches.

(Her entire character is that she's a stupid little baby trying to be threatening, I'm not saying she's ridiculously unskilled but it's not that unlikely for someone to not know how to bring out the full power of a swing. Hell I wouldn't know how to)

Wdym bro she literally challenges them to a 2v1 fight and threatens to get them back for this if that's bossing someone around then that's the bossiest ass mf I've seen in my life. This is just silly now.

??? How else would you describe this? She's not trying to maim them, she's just being a bully through relatively mild physical violence (emphasis on the relatively).

Okay but she doesn't have to be swinging with the intent to maim them to death lol. Like, yeah, she wasn't trying to KILL THEM, but the intent is very clearly to hurt them badly.

"Hurt them badly", sure but how badly? Like this is the crux of things, she's just trying to assert superiority/get them to back off, she's not trying to hospitalize them, so you're scaling them to attacks that were intended to somewhat injure them via being somewhat injured by them.

This really kinda depends on genetics, as I've seen teenagers who are taller and larger than any adults I know.

Yeah 16 years old Shaq is probably 9-C but Kel isn't really a genetic outlier like that, he's a normal kid in terms of stature and build, he's just athletic, he's gonna be above the average but not by a crazy extent.

 

[azontr]

If they're being injured by the strikes they're not scaling to them

What ??? You don't have to tank strikes with no notable injuries to scale to the person striking them. That's like saying because two comparable people fight but they're able to injure each other means they don't scale to each other.

A basketball doesn't do nearly as much damage as a knife? Like at absolute most it's gonna break your nose,

Okay but the point is the realistic portrayal of injury, not which poses more of a threat. If Kel throws a basketball at Aubrey and it breaks her nose, would it not be unrealistic for her to not note that as a significant injury, but to note getting nicked a bit on her arm a bit, a wound we wouldn't even fully see to know it's severity? Exceptions like this just don't work.

Her entire character is that she's a stupid little baby trying to be threatening, I'm not saying she's ridiculously unskilled but it's not that unlikely for someone to not know how to bring out the full power of a swing. Hell I wouldn't know how to)

I don't think that's her character at all whatsoever, but that's an argument that depends entirely on interpretation of the character which isn't one to have in a CRT. Either way, you don't have to be an expert major league batter to bring out 9-C energy with a bat.

How else would you describe this? She's not trying to maim them, she's just being a bully through relatively mild physical violence (emphasis on the relatively).

Hurt them badly", sure but how badly? Like this is the crux of things, she's just trying to assert superiority/get them to back off, she's not trying to hospitalize them, so you're scaling them to attacks that were intended to somewhat injure them via being somewhat injured by them.

(Quoting these both cause they kinda play into the same argument and i wouldn't want to repeat myself to many times)

Okay, but like, you're operating under the idea that just because they get hurt from her strikes means they don't scale. But when have we ever needed there to be complete tanking of an attack for there to be relative scaling? If Aubrey hits Kel, and Kel blocks it, but it bruises his arm and it scratches up the skin, why wouldn't he scale to the bat? Because he got kinda injured from it? It didn't put him out of commission and he could still use the arm (in this hypothetical scenario), so why do we not scale them? I'm not even trying to SOLIDLY scale them, because all I'm trying to do is reinstate the possibly rating, which isn't even a likely rating.

Not gonna respond to the last bit because I think we don't need to explore that any further.

 

[IDK3465]

I know that everyone on the site hates whatabout-ism, but I just wanted to mention how we already have ‘normal teenagers’ being rated at f**king tier 5.
I don’t think it’s that ridiculous if everyone in OMORI’s version of the real world is 9-C if we have bullsh*t like this.

 

[azontr]

I know that everyone on the site hates whatabout-ism, but I just wanted to mention how we already have ‘normal teenagers’ being rated at f**king tier 5.
I don’t think it’s that ridiculous if everyone in OMORI’s version of the real world is 9-C if we have bullsh*t like this.

So true @IDK3465 the goat

Save the OMORI society

 

[Armorchompy]

What ??? You don't have to tank strikes with no notable injuries to scale to the person striking them. That's like saying because two comparable people fight but they're able to injure each other means they don't scale to each other.

My point is just the fact that she causes some injuries with the nails isn't evidence that she's swinging with such strength that you'd need superhuman durability to withstand them without breaking bones.

But since you mentioned it, a bat is a huge force multiplier. If someone were to swing one at a comparable character with serious force there'd be serious damage, not just a few scrapes. So that's another inconsistency.

Okay but the point is the realistic portrayal of injury, not which poses more of a threat. If Kel throws a basketball at Aubrey and it breaks her nose, would it not be unrealistic for her to not note that as a significant injury, but to note getting nicked a bit on her arm a bit, a wound we wouldn't even fully see to know it's severity? Exceptions like this just don't work.

"The point" doesn't work at all because the reason he freaks out at the knife is that Sunny just pulled out a real ass weapon and wielded it with intention to injure, a half kg rubber ball isn't the same thing, given that it is 1) something he was just happened to be carrying and used for self-defense 2) not something you can realistically kill people with.

Okay, but like, you're operating under the idea that just because they get hurt from her strikes means they don't scale. But when have we ever needed there to be complete tanking of an attack for there to be relative scaling? If Aubrey hits Kel, and Kel blocks it, but it bruises his arm and it scratches up the skin, why wouldn't he scale to the bat? Because he got kinda injured from it? It didn't put him out of commission and he could still use the arm (in this hypothetical scenario), so why do we not scale them? I'm not even trying to SOLIDLY scale them, because all I'm trying to do is reinstate the possibly rating, which isn't even a likely rating.

What is there to scale to? There's no evidence the bat is being swung hard enough to break bones to begin with, all context points to her not wishing to cause such extensive damage so why are we saying she's attacking that hard anyways?

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

What ??? You don't have to tank strikes with no notable injuries to scale to the person striking them. That's like saying because two comparable people fight but they're able to injure each other means they don't scale to each other.

Okay, but like, you're operating under the idea that just because they get hurt from her strikes means they don't scale. But when have we ever needed there to be complete tanking of an attack for there to be relative scaling? If Aubrey hits Kel, and Kel blocks it, but it bruises his arm and it scratches up the skin, why wouldn't he scale to the bat? Because he got kinda injured from it? It didn't put him out of commission and he could still use the arm (in this hypothetical scenario), so why do we not scale them? I'm not even trying to SOLIDLY scale them, because all I'm trying to do is reinstate the possibly rating, which isn't even a likely rating.

I think Armorchompy and you are thinking of different things when considering what qualifies as an injury. Kel doing damage to Aubrey with his basketball can be called an "injury," yet Aubrey's durability scales to it. However, if an injury is severe enough, it doesn't scale to durability. Durability is how much power something can withstand without the power breaking through, so if the power breaks through, then there isn't proof that the target was durable enough to withstand it. This is why Aubrey's durability doesn't scale to Sunny's knife despite Aubrey having survived a hit from it. Armorchompy points out the realism of Sunny cutting Aubrey, which was emphasized by the story, and how the nails on Aubrey's baseball bat would've realistically done something similar if she weren't trying to prevent that from happening. This makes it seem like Aubrey was specifically trying to use less than Street level strength when attacking.

I know that everyone on the site hates whatabout-ism, but I just wanted to mention how we already have ‘normal teenagers’ being rated at f**king tier 5.
I don’t think it’s that ridiculous if everyone in OMORI’s version of the real world is 9-C if we have bullsh*t like this.

I haven't watched Ben 10, so I can't compare it with Omori. However, I know that not every fiction handles "normal teenagers" the same way. If Ben always gets into fights with super powerful entities, then he probably defied his origins as a mundane human, or maybe mundane humans in Ben 10 are stronger than in real life. Maybe "normal teenager" is just a name we can use for in-setting tiering relative to in-setting scaling, which doesn't necessarily have to mean characters within it are Human level, since different fictions have different evidence for different Tiering System tiers.