All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread

[Nullflowerblush]

Hm.
Then, >11.0779159 Zettatons Post-Ultra Divine Water Goku, perhaps?
That places Tien Shinhan Saga Goku (est.) twenty-times higher than MAX Power Roshi from the Tournament Saga.

The explanation implies the only significant boost Goku received between the King Piccolo Saga and the Raditz Saga was from training with Kami and Mr. Popo, which further suggests he either trained very little/not at all, or that he only engaged in light training between the end of DB and Z, unlike Piccolo.

 

[AguilaR202]

Future Gohan and 17 scaling doesn’t make sense, IIRC Trunks was only around Future Gohans level before he traveled to the past
If anything F.17 (2x)> F. Gohan ~ F. Trunks > Mecha Freeza.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

IIRC Trunks was only around Future Gohans level before he traveled to the past

Before he fought the Androids and was defeated. An unknown period of time passed between then and when he leaves for the past. Furthermore, he is depicted as and explicitly confirmed by supplementary material to possess power comparable to Goku's—Future Gohan was weaker than Goku.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Before he fought the Androids and was defeated. An unknown period of time passed between then and when he leaves for the past. Furthermore, he is depicted as and explicitly confirmed by supplementary material to possess power comparable to Goku's—Future Gohan was weaker than Goku.

Right, Trunks probably got a Zenkai boost from his ass beating and then probably got a little stronger again from his brief sparring match with Goku due to his Saiyan biology. Honestly I feel like Trunks needs a new key for his History of Trunks self.

 

[AguilaR202]

Before he fought the Androids and was defeated. An unknown period of time passed between then and when he leaves for the past. Furthermore, he is depicted as and explicitly confirmed by supplementary material to possess power comparable to Goku's—Future Gohan was weaker than Goku.

That would still leave the issue of F.17 scaling below Mecha Freezas level, If Trunks had grown strong enough to casually defeat someone 2x stronger than 17 he’d have no need for time traveling in the first place or alternatively would have beaten them as soon as he returned to the future.

About F. Gohan he was most likely him referring to post yardrat Goku and in the 3 years before he died, not Namek era Goku pre yardrat training.

Also I wouldn’t take guide statements saying F. Trunks and Goku were comparable, in the manga and their sparring it’s made clear Goku has a substantial advantage over Trunks, he was focusing his ki in one finger and didn’t even take fighting stance to block Trunks’ serious two handed swings.

Edit: Super in both versions reinforces the idea of what a sparring between Goku and Trunks that are evenly matched would look like, their android saga encounter is nothing like that further solidifying Goku was > Tunks at that point.

TL;DR
F.17 >/~ Post Yardrat Goku >Trunks > Mecha Freeza ~ /> Gohan ~ Namek Goku.

 

[BlastX]

Trunk was also holding back, although I do agree Future Gohan was referring to Post-Yadrat Goku.

Although it should be noted that even if Trunks was stronger than a single android, he often has to 1v2 them and especially cause they never tire.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I think we need keys for the Future Timeline Androids since the ones in the Present Timeline are both stronger and have more techniques at their disposal.

 

[BlastX]

I feel they should have different profiles since they're different characters.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I feel they should have different profiles since they're different characters.

Either way they need to be added in some capacity since they're a huge cornerstone in the scaling.

 

[AguilaR202]

Trunk was also holding back, although I do agree Future Gohan was referring to Post-Yadrat Goku.

Although it should be noted that even if Trunks was stronger than a single android, he often has to 1v2 them and especially cause they never tire.

No, Trunks actually says he is going to get serious before they start, and he has a strained expression through all of the panels where he swings at Goku.

 

[BlastX]

Either way they need to be added in some capacity since they're a huge cornerstone in the scaling.

Honestly I feel you should have them both in a single profile, considering they don't hesitate when to jump in when the other is in trouble.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Honestly I feel you should have them both in a single profile, considering they don't hesitate when to jump in when the other is in trouble.

Maybe.

 

[AguilaR202]

Trunk was also holding back, although I do agree Future Gohan was referring to Post-Yadrat Goku.

Although it should be noted that even if Trunks was stronger than a single android, he often has to 1v2 them and especially cause they never tire.

Yeah but the basis of this scaling is the 2x raw power = tanking/ nullifying with 0 damage, androids can’t be half as strong as someone Trunks made short work off and prove to be an issue to him afterwards, and even though we don’t see them fighting a lot, on their final encounter both androids were confident 18 alone could kill trunks, meaning that they were either at least on par or outright superior to him individually ( before RoSAT training)

 

[Spinoirr]

Yeah it's at bare minimum stronger then blue evolved even in sign, but it's power does varies and Ultra Instinct adapts to its opponents strength without limit and Ultra Ego grows stronger without limit the more Vegeta's battle spirt grows

Both of their powers depend on their mindset

What you guys think about listing UI and Vegeta in UE have a "varies from higher to Far Higher with Ultra Instinct/Ultra Ego" ratting for their manga counterparts given their power varies depending on their mindset

 

[BlastX]

Yeah but the basis of this scaling is the 2x raw power = tanking/ nullifying with 0 damage, androids can’t be half as strong as someone Trunks made short work off and prove to be an issue to him afterwards, and even though we don’t see them fighting a lot, on their final encounter both androids were confident 18 alone could kill trunks, meaning that they were either at least on par or outright superior to him individually ( before RoSAT training)

Why did you reply to me twice?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

About F. Gohan he was most likely him referring to post yardrat Goku and in the 3 years before he died, not Namek era Goku pre yardrat training.

Ah, right.
I completely forgot about that.

Also I wouldn’t take guide statements saying F. Trunks and Goku were comparable, in the manga and their sparring it’s made clear Goku has a substantial advantage over Trunks, he was focusing his ki in one finger and didn’t even take fighting stance to block Trunks’ serious two handed swings.

Trunks was only testing Goku's ability; nothing implies that they were competing with all of their strength; that, and concentrating Ki towards a smaller, singular point on the body significantly amplifies its power.

If anything, Goku taking up such a defensive stance only confirms how close Trunks is to Goku.

further solidifying Goku was > Tunks at that point.

Goku can be stronger than Future Trunks and Future Trunks still be stronger than Future Gohan by virtue of his proximity to the former.

TL;DR
F.17 >/~ Post Yardrat Goku >Trunks > Mecha Freeza ~ /> Gohan ~ Namek Goku.

That's fine.
All that means is that the scaling chain gets bumped by another two-fold.

Although, I'm not sure about Gohan scaling to Post-Zenkai Goku. We don't really have any evidence to support that, do we?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

We got a fight and a quick fix CRT.

 

[RedReaper616]

Speaking of Trunks, why isn’t Future Trunks separated into two profiles based on his different eras? (Z and Super respectively).

 

[BlastX]

Although, I'm not sure about Gohan scaling to Post-Zenkai Goku. We don't really have any evidence to support that, do we?

I remember one interview stating that there's a threshold of power level a saiyan must hit before being able to become a Super Saiyan (probably 3 million) so we can scale Future Gohan from that.

 

[BlastX]

Speaking of Trunks, why isn’t Future Trunks separated into two profiles based on his different eras? (Z and Super respectively).

Not everything requires separation, only when a profile gets too bloated for it.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Shouldn't Yajirobe be Planet Level with his Katana since he cut through Vegeta's armor as well as cut off his tail? Yeah, he was surprised by the second one but he explicitly stated he was on-guard due to Krillin being out of sight.

 

[BlastX]

Shouldn't Yajirobe be Planet Level with his Katana since he cut through Vegeta's armor as well as cut off his tail? Yeah, he was surprised by the second one but he explicitly stated he was on-guard due to Krillin being out of sight.

Vegeta was also in his last legs at that point.

 

[RedReaper616]

Not everything requires separation, only when a profile gets too bloated for it.

Sure, but I think Trunks qualifies for that bloating. At least to me, personally.

I remember one interview stating that there's a threshold of power level a saiyan must hit before being able to become a Super Saiyan (probably 3 million) so we can scale Future Gohan from that.

If we’re to use interviews on power thresholds, that means I can totally say Super Bardock’s PL is beneath 24K, since that’s seemingly when the “so strong your Tail stops regrowing” mark is. (This is where Vegeta was in power when his tail didn’t regrow). However, Kid Gohan at 2800 still could regrow his tail. Maybe I can do something with this…

 

[Nullflowerblush]

(probably 3 million)

Toriyama said "one can’t reach the quantity necessary for becoming a Super Saiyan simply by having a gentle spirit, so a certain amount of battle power is indeed necessary", but arguing said amount is that of post-Zenkai Goku requires that Gohan be stronger than Goku was as a Super Saiyan, given he squarely outclasses young Trunks.

 

[BlastX]

Not really, Gohan even said trunks was gonna surpass him in a few months, of course that would have happened hadn't he went to his death.

 

[RedReaper616]

Toriyama said "one can’t reach the quantity necessary for becoming a Super Saiyan simply by having a gentle spirit, so a certain amount of battle power is indeed necessary", but arguing said amount is that of post-Zenkai Goku requires that Gohan be stronger than Goku was as a Super Saiyan, given he squarely outclasses young Trunks.

I meeeeeaaaaaaaannnnnnn….mmmmmm. The gap between Namek Goku and Yardrat Goku was never really substantiated all that well beyond the fact that SSJ Goku >~ SSJ Trunks, who casually nuked M.Frieza, and M.Frieza > (by some large degree) 100% Frieza (and probably SSJ Namek Goku given his confidence). So it’s not impossible that the gap is actually this large. Especially since there’s the 3 years training to account for, too.

 

[BlastX]

Sure, but I think Trunks qualifies for that bloating. At least to me, personally.

If we’re to use interviews on power thresholds, that means I can totally say Super Bardock’s PL is beneath 24K, since that’s seemingly when the “so strong your Tail stops regrowing” mark is. (This is where Vegeta was in power when his tail didn’t regrow). However, Kid Gohan at 2800 still could regrow his tail. Maybe I can do something with this…

I thought 2.8K was only for Angry Masenko.

 

[RedReaper616]

I thought 2.8K was only for Angry Masenko.

I mean, it is, but it’s also stated to be his PL in Dai.7, so I just used it as shorthand.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Especially since there’s the 3 years training to account for, too.

Goku was only on Yardrat for about a year.
The future Z-Fighters didn't have the three years notice to begin preparing for the Androids so we don't know if they grew similarly in strength.

I thought 2.8K was only for Angry Masenko.

Piccolo's Power Level (three thousand-something) exceeded that of the Masenko's, and he stated that, at full power, Gohan surpassed him.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Honestly, you could probably argue, narratively, that 3,000,000 is the required Power Level for Super Saiyan.

Numerous times is Goku described as having transcended the limits of a normal Saiyan by that time, and Vegeta goes from "He may be the Super Saiyan" after he arrives on Namek to "He is the Super Saiyan" after he emerges from the Medical Machine.

but like
might not pass here

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Honestly, you could probably argue, narratively, that 3,000,000 is the required Power Level for Super Saiyan.

Numerous times is Goku described as having transcended the limits of a normal Saiyan by that time, and Vegeta goes from "He may be the Super Saiyan" after he arrives on Namek to "He is the Super Saiyan" after he emerges from the Medical Machine.

but like
might not pass here

Unless the plot demands it like with Bardock and Saiyan Saga Vegeta in the Budokai 1 What If about him winning.

 

[Damage3245]

Numerous times is Goku described as having transcended the limits of a normal Saiyan by that time, and Vegeta goes from "He may be the Super Saiyan" after he arrives on Namek to "He is the Super Saiyan" after he emerges from the Medical Machine.

Being real, Vegeta had no idea what a Super Saiyan really was.

 

[RedReaper616]

Being real, Vegeta had no idea what a Super Saiyan really was.

Sure, but this implication is supported by Ginyu, who considered Goku a “mutant” for being what he estimated was 60K, and beyond Saiyan norms. Given Toriyama said there is a minimum, Vegeta’s references, and Ginyu’s statement, it’s not strange to consider that 3 million is the minimum in question.

 

[BlastX]

Unless the plot demands it like with Bardock and Saiyan Saga Vegeta in the Budokai 1 What If about him winning.

Non-Canon doesn't count.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Perfect Cell vs Bojack [0-0-0]

This is is Perfect Cell (obviously) and Full Power Bojack being used and the fight takes place in the Cell Games Arena. Cell : Bojack : Incon :

vsbattles.com

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I think profiles for the Budokai versions of the characters would be awesome since they have a lot of what if possibilities in them, though I still think SSJ Saiyan Saga Vegeta is hilarious in concept, especially with his trigger for it.

 

[BlastX]

I think profiles for the Budokai versions of the characters would be awesome since they have a lot of what if possibilities in them, though I still think SSJ Saiyan Saga Vegeta is hilarious in concept, especially with his trigger for it.

There's a lot of them that got left on the wayside, like SSJ4 Buu Saga Goku or SSJ3 Cell Game Goku based on the voice lines.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

There's a lot of them that got left on the wayside, like SSJ4 Buu Saga Goku or SSJ3 Cell Game Goku based on the voice lines.

No, you can still unlock SSJ4 in the Buu Saga.

 

[BlastX]

No, you can still unlock SSJ4 in the Buu Saga.

Yeah but I was referring to Goku getting it to fight Kid Buu...and still losing.