Bungou Strays Dogs, Downgrade

[Vzearr]

Speed:​

Oda Dodges A Bullet:​

This feat is extremely contradictory, I mean, he can dodge bullets and move 4x faster then them but is using guns close range ? He then can't dodge bullets from a relatively far range which makes no sense whatsoever, contradicting the calc.

Also the gun is a Walther P38

Chuuya Blocks A Bullet:​

You can't angsize to Chuuya's head then in the next panel draw the (green) line to his legs which are considerably further back then his face. Drawing the line from his head to the bullet makes it correct.

Atsushi Catches A Bullet:​

The gun used is quite clearly not an UZI, this gun seem eerily similar to the gun the kid is using so I think its the better gun to use.

Also, the pixel scaling is done slightly wrong, the green line should be at least a quarter deep into the bullet seeing as that's when he caught it/chomped down.

Lifting Strength:​

Chuya swings a building​

Quora isn't a reliable source. The source is also just assumption based.

 

[Arceus0x]

Oda isn't quite contradictory. Bullets are small and harder to spot than someone large moving at that speed. We're 2x faster than house flies and 5x+ faster than Mosquitoes and yet we can have a hard time reacting to their movements. Additionally he dodged the bullet and it scraped him, which is a miscalculation of distance rather than a speed issue as if he couldn't dodge it he would've gotten shot in the face. Additionally movement speed is never constant in combat especially when you get more tired and the part that you showed had Oda fighting for quite a bit with his life on the line, which could be grounds for a miscalculation.

Gonna ignore the Chuya calc cause i am confused at what's going on and I am to sleepy to deal with it.

Agree on the gun

Agree with removing Quora. The method we use for calcing buildings is different and there should be a calc of the volume of a building somewhere in the references for common feats. You can just remake it to gain the weight of the building.

 

[Zefra3011]

Speed:​

Oda Dodges A Bullet:​

This feat is extremely contradictory, I mean, he can dodge bullets and move 4x faster then them but is using guns close range ? He then can't dodge bullets from a relatively far range which makes no sense whatsoever, contradicting the calc.

The fact he uses guns I think it's just his fighting style and he adapts it against character faster than bullets by shotting at close range, he physically is still faster than his bullets, here he could dash to Akutagawa with him barely reacting, and Akutagawa can parry bullets and he is relative to Atsushi who can catch a point-blank bullet.
Also if you notice, for the most of the fight they shoot at close range, even Hypersonic characters would have hard time dodging bullets from that distance and in the entire fight he never got directly hit, only a single time but he still moved his head out and the bullet barely grazed him so he techinically still dodged it.

Chuuya Blocks A Bullet:​

You can't angsize to Chuuya's head then in the next panel draw the (green) line to his legs which are considerably further back then his face. Drawing the line from his head to the bullet makes it correct.

Mh... I guess it's fair

Atsushi Catches A Bullet:​

The gun used is quite clearly not an UZI, this gun seem eerily similar to the gun the kid is using so I think its the better gun to use.

Fair, when I made the calc I was pretty sure there were an UZI model like that but I can't really find it.

Also, the pixel scaling is done slightly wrong, the green line should be at least a quarter deep into the bullet seeing as that's when he caught it/chomped down.

He kinda bite the tip of the bullet so a quarter seems to much imo and I don't really think makes much sense since he would still need to move his mouth up before the bullet reaches him and not when the bullet is inside him.

 

[Vzearr]

Oda isn't quite contradictory. Bullets are small and harder to spot than someone large moving at that speed. We're 2x faster than house flies and 5x+ faster than Mosquitoes and yet we can have a hard time reacting to their movements. Additionally he dodged the bullet and it scraped him, which is a miscalculation of distance rather than a speed issue as if he couldn't dodge it he would've gotten shot in the face. Additionally movement speed is never constant in combat especially when you get more tired and the part that you showed had Oda fighting for quite a bit with his life on the line, which could be grounds for a miscalculation.

The thing is he wouldn't need to spot a small bullet, he would need to spot the large blast that comes before the bullet, which is entirely possible especially if he's capable of moving 4x its speed. If he's really 4x faster then bullets there should be no reason to struggle to dodge a bullet that is well over 3 meters away.

he physically is still faster than his bullets, here he could dash to Akutagawa with him barely reacting, and Akutagawa can parry bullets and he is relative to Atsushi who can catch a point-blank bullet.

This isn't in any way how it works. One you're assuming Akutagawa is constantly the same speed. Two you're hiding calculations, in no way is this feat where he catches bullets close to bullet level speeds, also its only scale would be an excessively large highball seeing as we don't know when he began moving to block the bullets. But even with the highball this feat would just scale to subsonic+ if you're being kind.

and the bullet barely grazed him so he techinically still dodged it.

If a character gets grazed in a fight with another character, would they be comparable ? The simple answer is yes, Oda is comparable to bullets/guns. You can't dodge something close range and then get grazed by it when its shot at from multiple meters away (where you would only need to move a quarter of its speed to dodge), it just makes no sense.

Also, don't you think its weird that Gide (who is seemingly comparable to Oda) is still using a gun even after he sees Oda move largely faster then them ? It'd make no sense to keep using a gun if you know your opponent is just going to never be hit.

He kinda bite the tip of the bullet so a quarter seems to much imo and I don't really think makes much sense since he would still need to move his mouth up before the bullet reaches him and not when the bullet is inside him.

Eh.

 

[Arceus0x]

The thing is he wouldn't need to spot a small bullet, he would need to spot the large blast that comes before the bullet, which is entirely possible especially if he's capable of moving 4x its speed. If he's really 4x faster then bullets there should be no reason to struggle to dodge a bullet that is well over 3 meters away.

It's not a large blast at all. WE see a large blast, the bullet, meanwhile, travels faster and further than any visible blast. That's literally how guns work mate, a small explosion happens which propells the bullet. The bullet comes out first and thus you'd need to react to it rather than the blast. This counterargument makes no sense.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Speed:​

Oda Dodges A Bullet:​

This feat is extremely contradictory, I mean, he can dodge bullets and move 4x faster then them but is using guns close range ? He then can't dodge bullets from a relatively far range which makes no sense whatsoever, contradicting the calc.

This reasoning is not too good for the reasons Arceus mentioned.

Chuuya Blocks A Bullet:​

You can't angsize to Chuuya's head then in the next panel draw the (green) line to his legs which are considerably further back then his face. Drawing the line from his head to the bullet makes it correct.

Makes sense, I expect higher results from this calc though, he has his legs on the right side of the frame and has swung it noticeably.

Atsushi Catches A Bullet:​

The gun used is quite clearly not an UZI, this gun seem eerily similar to the gun the kid is using so I think its the better gun to use.

Yes, using a KEDR is a better option if there's an exact gun like that IRL.

Lifting Strength:​

Chuya swings a building​

Quora isn't a reliable source. The source is also just assumption based.

I don't think Quora is always an unreliable source. The dude has qualifications like Project Director/Construction Manager/Project Manager. But anyways, he (the person from Quora) still calculated his stuff via using his own measurements which might heavily differ from what is shown in an anime feat.

 

[Vzearr]

It's not a large blast at all. WE see a large blast, the bullet, meanwhile, travels faster and further than any visible blast.

Yes but to dodge the bullet is simple. You see the blast and move your head away from it. If he can't even do that how can you expect him to scale 4x above the speed of bullets.

 

[Arceus0x]

Yes but to dodge the bullet is simple. You see the blast and move your head away from it. If he can't even do that how can you expect him to scale 4x above the speed of bullets.

Fire cloud is as fast as the bullet and spreads over a wide area, thus dodging the blast is inefficient since the actual fully visible part of it comes out like less than a centimeter away from the bullet.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Yes but to dodge the bullet is simple. You see the blast and move your head away from it. If he can't even do that how can you expect him to scale 4x above the speed of bullets.

Akutagawa himself mentioned how bullets were powerless in their world and how low tiers (his friends in the slum were still killed because of it).

The fact that the author intended on Odasaku being faster than Akutagawa is basically Odasaku being faster than a gun. These characters can also do more damages to stuff than bullets (I don't mean AP). Their movements are legit so fast that they can cause buildings to collapse just from their shockwaves.

You are heavily underestimating Odasaku. Him not being able to dodge a single bullet is not something which you should really nitpick. It's clear that the author intends on having an Akutagawa who is times faster than a bullet, and Odasaku...


Also, the time when he failed to dodge a bullet was in a combat scenario, and the bullet barely just glazed him.

 

[Arceus0x]

Additionally the gun blast, beyond moving at the same time as the bullet, isn't always well visible and can be literally smoke without any light or anything, which is a lot harder to keep track of and hides the bullet for the first moments of its flight

 

[Vzearr]

Fire cloud is as fast as the bullet and spreads over a wide area, thus dodging the blast is inefficietn since the actual fully visible part of it comes out like less than a centimeter away from the bullet.

I think you've completely misunderstood your argument. If the blast doesn't come out before the bullet comes out then your "debunk" would be correct. But the blast comes out first, which proves he should have been able to dodge it by seeing the obvious large blast. If he was faster then bullets that is.

Akutagawa himself mentioned how bullets were powerless in their world and how low tiers (his friends in the slum were still killed because of it).

The fact that the author intended on Odasaku being faster than Akutagawa is basically Odasaku being faster than a gun. These characters can also do more damages to stuff than bullets (I don't mean AP). Their movements are legit so fast that they can cause buildings to collapse just from their shockwaves.

You are heavily underestimating Odasaku. Him not being able to dodge a single bullet is not something which you should really nitpick. It's clear that the author intends on having an Akutagawa who is times faster than a bullet, and Odasaku...


Also, the time when he failed to dodge a bullet was in a combat scenario, and the bullet barely just glazed him.

I'm not arguing that he's slower then bullets. I'm arguing that he's not extremely faster then bullets.

Why exactly would he be using a gun when he's 4-5x faster then it ? Why exactly would he struggle to dodge a bullet if he's 4-5x faster then them ? It makes no sense and it clearly evidence the feat you calced is an outlier.

 

[KLOL506]

Oda Dodges A Bullet:
This feat is extremely contradictory, I mean, he can dodge bullets and move 4x faster then them but is using guns close range ?

Oh boy, this argument again. Need I tell you why this is a completely nonsensical argument that means nothing for the feat?

There are loads of characters here on this site who range from MHS+ to FTL to even freakin' Infinite yet make great use of many ordinary weapons like freakin' bows and ballista. THEY ARE NOT ANTI-FEATS AT ALL. Anti-feats would be getting blitzed by slower projectiles. Not this. Please do not use this fallacious argument ever again.

He then can't dodge bullets from a relatively far range which makes no sense whatsoever, contradicting the calc.

Dude didn't even try to dodge here like in the other scenes. Please try to make better revisions than these arguments next time.

 

[Vzearr]

Oh boy, this argument again. Need I tell you why this is a completely nonsensical argument that means nothing for the feat?

There are loads of characters here on this site who range from MHS+ to FTL to even freakin' Infinite yet make great use of many ordinary weapons like freakin' bows and ballista. THEY ARE NOT ANTI-FEATS AT ALL. Anti-feats would be getting blitzed by slower projectiles. Not this. Please do not use this fallacious argument ever again.

How exactly is it a fallacious argument ? Don't accuse me of fallacies when I clearly haven't committed one.

And to combat your point, you shouldn't use other series to justify this series use of guns, that's a baseless argument.

 

[KLOL506]

I think you've completely misunderstood your argument. If the blast doesn't come out before the bullet comes out then your "debunk" would be correct. But the blast comes out first, which proves he should have been able to dodge it by seeing the obvious large blast. If he was faster then bullets that is.

Here's the thing. The blast always comes out either with the bullet or after the bullet has already left the muzzle. This is how guns work in general.

I'm not arguing that he's slower then bullets. I'm arguing that he's not extremely faster then bullets.

Sorry pal, but that's simply not how any of this works.

Why exactly would he be using a gun when he's 4-5x faster then it ? Why exactly would he struggle to dodge a bullet if he's 4-5x faster then them ? It makes no sense and it clearly evidence the feat you calced is an outlier.

Same reason why a character ranging from MHS+, FTL to even Infinite speeds end up using ordinary weapons like bows and other melee weapons. Can be a combination of versatility, range, marksmanship or just plot convenience. It'd be as silly as asking why characters who can bust multiverses still have unique weapons to use despite their fists alone being enough for that kinda damage.

 

[Vzearr]

Here's the thing. The blast always comes out either with the bullet or after the bullet has already left the muzzle. This is how guns work in general.

Eyup. Arceus was arguing that Oda couldn't have seen the bullet, even though the blast is entirely visible especially if you're vastly superior to bullet speeds, dodging shouldn't have been a problem.

Sorry pal, but that's simply not how any of this works.

Ah yes, don't tell me how it works and expect me to take your debunk seriously.

Same reason why a character ranging from MHS+, FTL to even Infinite speeds end up using ordinary weapons like bows and other melee weapons. Can be a combination of versatility, range, marksmanship or just plot convenience. It'd be as silly as asking why characters who can bust multiverses still have unique weapons to use despite their fists alone being enough for that kinda damage.

Are you still using other series as justification ? This isn't allowed and isn't a valid argument.

 

[Arceus0x]

I think you've completely misunderstood your argument. If the blast doesn't come out before the bullet comes out then your "debunk" would be correct. But the blast comes out first, which proves he should have been able to dodge it by seeing the obvious large blast. If he was faster then bullets that is.

1, what KLOL said above. 2, obvious large blast means nothing for dodging a small fast projectile hidden by the light and smoke of that blast. To dodge it perfectly you'd need to calculate in your mind the exact center of this uneven blast, get where the bullet is coming from whilst accounting for air curving the trajectory ever so slightly and calculating just how much you need to move your face for it to not hit you. He did that to the extent where instead of hitting him dead center in the face it slightly scraped his skin.

 

[KLOL506]

How exactly is it a fallacious argument ? Don't accuse me of fallacies when I clearly haven't committed one.

I didn't say it was a fallacious argument. I said it was a nonsensical argument. Learn the difference.

And to combat your point, you shouldn't use other series to justify this series use of guns, that's a baseless argument.

Three words that all these verses operate on: Rule of cool. Nobody gives a shit if there aren't actual anti-feats of them getting blitzed by slower projectiles. That's how it goes in these parts. Don't like 'em? Make a site-wide thread, or just leave.

 

[KLOL506]

Eyup. Arceus was arguing that Oda couldn't have seen the bullet, even though the blast is entirely visible especially if you're vastly superior to bullet speeds, dodging shouldn't have been a problem.

You do realize that the bullet's already out by the time the blast is out, right? It's just a projectile problem, nothing you can do about it. Any projectile is inherently going to be much, much harder to dodge the closer you are to it and they can instantly accelerate to you just at the pull of a trigger.

Ah yes, don't tell me how it works and expect me to take your debunk seriously.

Either respond respectfully without making such arguments in the first place or not at all.

Are you still using other series as justification ? This isn't allowed and isn't a valid argument.

It doesn't matter what verse I use because that's not the point. The point is, they follow all the premises I mentioned:

1. Rule of Cool

2. Versatility

3. Range

 

[Vzearr]

1, what KLOL said above. 2, obvious large blast means nothing for dodging a small fast projectile hidden by the light and smoke of that blast. To dodge it perfectly you'd need to calculate in your mind the exact center of this uneven blast, get where the bullet is coming from whilst accounting for air curving the trajectory ever so slightly and calculating just how much you need to move your face for it to not hit you. He did that to the extent where instead of hitting him dead center in the face it slightly scraped his skin.

To dodge a bullet you would need to see the blast and dodge it with your speed. You don't need to see the bullet at all, you're making it more complicated then it needs to be.

I didn't say it was a fallacious argument. I said it was a nonsensical argument. Learn the difference.

Please do not use this fallacious argument ever again.

Oh boy...

Three words that all these verses operate on: Rule of cool. Nobody gives a shit if there aren't actual anti-feats of them getting blitzed by slower projectiles. That's how it goes in these parts. Don't like 'em? Make a site-wide thread, or just leave.

These are rules you made up. Never ever have I seen this talked about anywhere on the site, nor is it on any pages.

 

[Vzearr]

You do realize that the bullet's already out by the time the blast is out, right?

Yup, and seeing as Oda was meters away it wouldn't have taken much for him to see the blast and react accordingly.

Either respond respectfully without making such arguments in the first place or not at all.

I will gladly, but you came into this thread with an attitude and didn't at all debunk my point. You just said "that's not how it works". I'm sorry for sounding not respectful, but respect goes to ways.

1. Rule of Cool

2. Versatility

3. Range

These are rules you made up. Never ever have I seen this talked about anywhere on the site, nor is it on any pages.

 

[KLOL506]

To dodge a bullet you would need to see the blast and dodge it with your speed. You don't need to see the bullet at all, you're making it more complicated then it needs to be.

Does. Not. Matter. Dodging the blast would effectively be the same as dodging the bullet. The muzzle blast straight up cannot happen without the bullet leaving the barrel. Ballistics 101. Learn your guns first before making up these claims.

Oh boy...

These are rules you made up. Never ever have I seen this talked about anywhere on the site, nor is it on any pages.

In-case you don't know, anti-feats literally refer to absurdly low outliers that contradict the higher speed rating. A speedster capable of running at Mach 10 using a gun does not qualify as an anti-feat. A speedster getting blitzed by a catapult however, would count as an anti-feat

 

[SYPHe5D]

To dodge a bullet you would need to see the blast and dodge it with your speed. You don't need to see the bullet at all, you're making it more complicated then it needs to be.


Oh boy...

These are rules you made up. Never ever have I seen this talked about anywhere on the site, nor is it on any pages.

Rule of cool is a common principle in fiction where anything can be done as long as it is cool and suits the plot, look it up.

 

[Arceus0x]

To dodge a bullet you would need to see the blast and dodge it with your speed. You don't need to see the bullet at all, you're making it more complicated then it needs to be.

You don't need to see the blast, you need to see the bullet. The blast is bigger than the bullet and has a different direction of movement and slows down faster than the bullet. If we do talk about the blast then you also need to account for the fact that it makes it harded to see the bullet when it is shot since it's literally a glowing cloud. You either account for the whole thing or you don't account for the blast at all.

 

[KLOL506]

Yup, and seeing as Oda was meters away it wouldn't have taken much for him to see the blast and react accordingly.

Doesn't matter. Bullet's out at that point, he's a certain distance away before moving, fair game for Projectile Dodging formula.

 

[KLOL506]

These are rules you made up. Never ever have I seen this talked about anywhere on the site, nor is it on any pages.

BTW, Rule of Cool is an actual legitimate thing pretty much all of fiction uses to keep the story engaging, google it and you'll find it. Or do you want a boring-ass story where the main character kills everyone in one blink and the story ends in mere seconds?

Versatility is also absolutely a thing a character uses when their own body is limited to certain tasks, like trick-shots or having to dispatch multiple enemies at once from overwhelming you, etc.

Range is also another factor to use either to keep the enemy away or to kill them from afar without drawing attention.

They aren't rules, they're just basic observations anyone here can make with just a normal glance, which you haven't been able to piece together I'm afraid.

 

[Zefra3011]

This isn't in any way how it works. One you're assuming Akutagawa is constantly the same speed.

Yeah, I think BSD characters are constantly above guns since they have an absurd number of dodging/blocking bullets feats.

If a character gets grazed in a fight with another character, would they be comparable ? The simple answer is yes, Oda is comparable to bullets/guns. You can't dodge something close range and then get grazed by it when its shot at from multiple meters away (where you would only need to move a quarter of its speed to dodge), it just makes no sense.

yeah, let's take the only part when he gets grazed by it against the entire fight where he can dodge them at much closer range several times and the entire plot of BSD where bullets are toys to basically any character.

 

[KLOL506]

@DMUA @Therefir @DemonGodMitchAubin @CloverDragon03 @Migue79 @Armorchompy @M3X_2.0 @Mr._Bambu Sorry for the tags but I really want this silly topic to be put to bed so your opinion here would be appreciated.

 

[Vzearr]

Does. Not. Matter. Dodging the blast would effectively be the same as dodging the bullet. The muzzle blast straight up cannot happen without the bullet leaving the barrel. Ballistics 101. Learn your guns first before making up these claims.

Do you even know what you're arguing ? Or do I not know what I'm arguing. Just so we're on the same page: Arceus stated that Oda couldn't dodge the bullet because the bullet is to small to be seen, I replied saying the blast isn't though, so if he can move 4x faster then bullets, he should be able to dodge them even from a range of multiple meters because the blast can be seen and reacted to (unless you're not faster then the bullets (Especially by 4x))

In-case you don't know, anti-feats literally refer to absurdly low outliers that contradict the higher speed rating.

What contradicts the speed rating is plain and simple, he can't dodge bullets mid range and uses guns close range, Its directly contradictory to him when he's calced to be 4x faster then them.

Rule of cool is a common principle in fiction where anything can be done as long as it is cool and suits the plot, look it up.

Not used on vswiki so its automatically irrelevant to our discussion.

You don't need to see the blast, you need to see the bullet. The blast is bigger than the bullet and has a different direction of movement and slows down faster than the bullet. If we do talk about the blast then you also need to account for the fact that it makes it harded to see the bullet when it is shot since it's literally a glowing cloud. You either account for the whole thing or you don't account for the blast at all.

No, you don't need to see the bullet. If Oda is 4x faster then bullets, and the blast is moving at similar speeds to the bullets, he should be able to correctly calculate that the bullet is leaving the chamber when he sees a large blast, he then can react accordingly if he is truly faster then bullets, but he can't.

Doesn't matter. Bullet's out at that point, he's a certain distance away before moving, fair game for Projectile Dodging formula.

What ? Yes the bullets out. He only has to move 0.1m while the bullet has to move 1m+, he should be able to dodge it if he truly is 4x faster then the guns he uses.

BTW, Rule of Cool is an actual legitimate thing pretty much all of fiction uses to keep the story engaging, google it and you'll find it. Or do you want a boring-ass story where the main character kills everyone in one blink and the story ends in mere seconds?

Not used on vswiki so its automatically irrelevant to our discussion.

Range is also another factor to use either to keep the enemy away or to kill them from afar without drawing attention.

Range has nothing to do with this feat. He's literally using the gun upclose, he clearly isn't faster then it by massive margins.

They aren't rules, they're just basic observations anyone here can make with just a normal glance, which you haven't been able to piece together I'm afraid.

Basic observations that don't play a role in my downgrade.

Yeah, I think BSD characters are constantly above guns since they have an absurd number of dodging/blocking bullets feats.

Hiding calculations. You can dodge and block bullets but still be slower then them. Really simple.

yeah, let's take the only part when he gets grazed by it against the entire fight where he can dodge them at much closer range several times.

Several times ? I only see him doing it once.

Also, let me pose the same question: If a character (A) gets grazed in a fight by character (B), Character (A) then goes onto dodge character (B's) punch multiple times close range, are they comparable ? The answer is yes, the same logic should be applied here.

 

[KLOL506]

The only thing I can agree to here is the gun being used by the kids needs to be changed, and the building swinging calc be replaced with something more reliable.

The first objection is completely useless here and the arguments make no sense whatsoever. The second calc could do with measuring the distance between the middle of Chuuya's shin to his torso as the distance between him and the bullet when the kick is made.

 

[Vzearr]

The second calc could do with measuring the distance between the middle of Chuuya's shin to his torso as the distance between him and the bullet when the kick is made.

Why would it be to his torso when the first image angsizes to his head, that literally makes no sense.

 

[Arceus0x]

No, you don't need to see the bullet. If Oda is 4x faster then bullets, and the blast is moving at similar speeds to the bullets, he should be able to correctly calculate that the bullet is leaving the chamber when he sees a large blast, he then can react accordingly if he is truly faster then bullets, but he can't.

I guess next time to cross the road and not get hit by a car I'll just avoid the whole damn street lmao. The blast is deformed and omnidirectional, it won't help you understand where the bullet is coming from as you aren't dodging the blast but the actual bullet. The blast changes nothing beyond hiding the bullet for a moment while they're flying together. If you want to dodge the bullet you need to see the bullet so you can calculate the trajectory, as the blast ends up having a different trajectory due to literally being gas.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I'm not arguing that he's slower then bullets. I'm arguing that he's not extremely faster then bullets.

Uh, I am sorry for misinterpreting that argument then.

Why exactly would he be using a gun when he's 4-5x faster then it ? Why exactly would he struggle to dodge a bullet if he's 4-5x faster then them ? It makes no sense and it clearly evidence the feat you calced is an outlier.

I don't get this argument. For one, yes, he's established as 4-5x times faster than it, and secondly, many high tiers use guns to clear up the low tiers, but I am telling you, all the high tier fights don't even have guns in them, they are pretty much fights of abilities. The example of the fight which you used is probably a plot moment, but let's not ignore that he decently dodges many of those bullets, and as Arceus mentioned a ton of times already, in range, it is hard to point out the bullet smoke and the bullet itself. Furthermore, he is displayed to be faster than bullets, his verse is faster than bullets and he is faster than the characters who ideally scale to those motions, so it completely isn't contradictory. He already has many feats in which he is that faster than a bullet or is at least faster than the characters who have speeds established around that level. I think this one is pretty much a PIS or at least explainable through the reasons Arceus gave.

 

[Arceus0x]

Yeah there's also the fact that it is one single small moment that is barely an anti-feat in a verse where people parry and dodge bullets casually. I need to find the moment but at one point they literally bring up hypersonic speed for some bullets shot using an ability. It's very consistent in-verse and should be kept that way.

 

[Zefra3011]

The only thing I can agree to here is the gun being used by the kids needs to be changed, and the building swinging calc be replaced with something more reliable.

The first objection is completely useless here and the arguments make no sense whatsoever. The second calc could do with measuring the distance between the middle of Chuuya's shin to his torso as the distance between him and the bullet when the kick is made.

I can correct my calcs (speed ones) later

 

[Vzearr]

I guess next time to cross the road and not get hit by a car I'll just avoid the whole damn street lmao. The blast is deformed and omnidirectional, it won't help you understand where the bullet is coming from as you aren't dodging the blast but the actual bullet. The blast changes nothing beyond hiding the bullet for a moment while they're flying together. If you want to dodge the bullet you need to see the bullet so you can calculate the trajectory, as the blast ends up having a different trajectory due to literally being gas.

I mean. You're acting like the blast has a raidius of 1 meter. In reality the blast is perfectly sized to get a rough indication of where the bullet is coming from, and if you're 4-5x faster then those bullets then you really shouldn't have a problem dodging it.

I don't get this argument. For one, yes, he's established as 4-5x times faster than it, and secondly, many high tiers use guns to clear up the low tiers, but I am telling you, all the high tier fights don't even have guns in them, they are pretty much fights of abilities. The example of the fight which you used is probably a plot moment, but let's not ignore that he decently dodges many of those bullets, and as Arceus mentioned a ton of times already, in range, it is hard to point out the bullet smoke and the bullet itself. Furthermore, he is displayed to be faster than bullets, his verse is faster than bullets and he is faster than the characters who ideally scale to those motions, so it completely isn't contradictory. He already has many feats in which he is that faster than a bullet or is at least faster than the characters who have speeds established around that level. I think this one is pretty much a PIS or at least explainable through the reasons Arceus gave.

Again, he dodged 1 bullet, I have no idea where you are getting the idea that he dodged multiple, even if he did dodge multiple, they still would need to calced to see if he truly is disproportionately faster (even though my reasons are more then enough to prove its an anti feat).

 

[KLOL506]

Do you even know what you're arguing ? Or do I not know what I'm arguing. Just so we're on the same page: Arceus stated that Oda couldn't dodge the bullet because the bullet is to small to be seen, I replied saying the blast isn't though, so if he can move 4x faster then bullets, he should be able to dodge them even from a range of multiple meters because the blast can be seen and reacted to (unless you're not faster then the bullets (Especially by 4x))

And I'm telling you it wouldn't matter whether you saw the bullet or the blast first. All that would matter is that the bullet left the barrel and Oda moved after that. If Oda moved before the bullet left the barrel, then you'd have to use the velocity in the barrel, or if he moved before the trigger pull activated the hammer then it'd be aimdodging. But that's not what happens here.

What contradicts the speed rating is plain and simple, he can't dodge bullets mid range and uses guns close range, Its directly contradictory to him when he's calced to be 4x faster then them.

Again, dude literally didn't even make an attempt to dodge here and doesn't put half the effort he did here compared to the actual dodging scenes. Rule of Cool literally applies here where characters appear non-chalant in a fight just to prove a point.

Not used on vswiki so its automatically irrelevant to our discussion.

I'm gonna pretend I didn't see that so yeah.

No, you don't need to see the bullet. If Oda is 4x faster then bullets, and the blast is moving at similar speeds to the bullets, he should be able to correctly calculate that the bullet is leaving the chamber when he sees a large blast, he then can react accordingly if he is truly faster then bullets, but he can't.

It doesn't matter. He moves after the muzzle flash is made. That's all we need. We don't need to overcomplicate this any further than you have.

What ? Yes the bullets out. He only has to move 0.1m while the bullet has to move 1m+, he should be able to dodge it if he truly is 4x faster then the guns he uses.

The size of the muzzle blast alone would dictate the bullet hasn't moved that far at all. If anything, the muzzle blast should have dissipated greatly by the time the bullet went 1m+ instead of leaving behind a massive fireball.

Not used on vswiki so its automatically irrelevant to our discussion.

You say that while everyone else here has used these arguments for a majority of the feats on this wiki, and is literally how we operate things here.

Range has nothing to do with this feat.

You missed the point of my argument then. Carrying a gun and using it despite being faster than bullets yourself does not automatically make it an anti-feat, never has, never will. Such characters use weapons for a multitude of reasons I already explained. That's not how we do things here.

He's literally using the gun upclose, he clearly isn't faster then it by massive margins.

What the hell does this mean?

Basic observations that don't play a role in my downgrade.

Except it does because of what I just explained. But you do you.

Also, let me pose the same question: If a character (A) gets grazed in a fight by character (B), Character (A) then goes onto dodge character (B's) punch multiple times close range, are they comparable ? The answer is yes, the same logic should be applied here.

This is missing context. Massively so. Dude didn't even make an active effort to avoid getting grazed. You seriously think a dude who just got muzzle-blasted up that close is then going to suddenly leave himself vulnerable to a longer distance shot he'll have more time to react to? Do you honestly think that makes more sense than whatever it is you're spouting here?

 

[RoggerReggor]

Again, he dodged 1 bullet, I have no idea where you are getting the idea that he dodged multiple, even if he did dodge multiple, they still would need to calced to see if he truly is disproportionately faster (even though my reasons are more then enough to prove its an anti feat).

This sucks honestly. You would need to prove that the entire narrative Akutagawa gives regarding bullets and his feats are false, or at least show how did he get blitzed by someone who shouldn't be faster than him.

It is pretty much the same as characters from Boruto and Naruto having trains or Goku being unable to lift some hundred tons in an episode. Even if it were, a single inconsistency doesn't re-justify what the author already wants his characters to be.

 

[KLOL506]

In reality the blast is perfectly sized to get a rough indication of where the bullet is coming from,

I am bamboozled by this. What exactly is the issue here assuming barrel-to-Oda face distance? I really don't see what relevance the muzzle blast has here at this point.

The muzzle blast's only purpose is to prove it ain't aim-dodging. The barrel is literally where the bullet comes out from.

and if you're 4-5x faster then those bullets then you really shouldn't have a problem dodging it.

Again, projectile problem. It will always be inherently harder to dodge something up close even if you're that much faster than the projectile when it can instantly accelerate by you pulling the trigger.

Again, he dodged 1 bullet, I have no idea where you are getting the idea that he dodged multiple, even if he did dodge multiple, they still would need to calced to see if he truly is disproportionately faster (even though my reasons are more then enough to prove its an anti feat).

Only way you can remotely prove an anti-feat is if he explicitly shows struggling against slower moving projectiles and such. That grazing feat you mentioned? It's not even close to being solid as you think it is.

 

[Vzearr]

And I'm telling you it wouldn't matter whether you saw the bullet or the blast first. All that would matter is that the bullet left the barrel and Oda moved after that. If Oda moved before the bullet left the barrel, then you'd have to use the velocity in the barrel, or if he moved before the trigger pull activated the hammer then it'd be aimdodging. But that's not what happens here.

I'm not saying its aim dodging, I'm saying he's not 4x faster then bullets seeing as he literally can't dodge one from over a meter away.

Again, dude literally didn't even make an attempt to dodge here and doesn't put half the effort he did here compared to the actual dodging scenes. Rule of Cool literally applies here where characters appear non-chalant in a fight just to prove a point.

Using a non existent rule again.

It doesn't matter. He moves after the muzzle flash is made. That's all we need. We don't need to overcomplicate this any further than you have.

What are you even arguing ?

The size of the muzzle blast alone would dictate the bullet hasn't moved that far at all. If anything, the muzzle blast should have dissipated greatly by the time the bullet went 1m+ instead of leaving behind a massive fireball.

I'm so confused on what you're arguing for dude.

You missed the point of my argument then. Carrying a gun and using it despite being faster than bullets yourself does not automatically make it an anti-feat, never has, never will. Such characters use weapons for a multitude of reasons I already explained. That's not how we do things here.

Do they apply here ? Stop using other verses reasoning for this verse.

This is missing context. Massively so. Dude didn't even make an active effort to avoid getting grazed.

Assuming he didn't try to dodge when he's actively moving his face is odd.

This sucks honestly. You would need to prove that the entire narrative Akutagawa gives regarding bullets and his feats are false, or at least show how did he get blitzed by someone who shouldn't be faster than him.

When did he get blitzed by Oda ?

The narrative is that he's faster then bullets ? Not that he's disproportionately faster then bullets.

I am bamboozled by this. What exactly is the issue here assuming barrel-to-Oda face distance? I really don't see what relevance the muzzle blast has here at this point.

To show that he could dodge the bullet without directly seeing the bullet. I'm not saying its aim dodging.

Again, projectile problem. It will always be inherently harder to dodge something up close even if you're that much faster than the projectile when it can instantly accelerate by you pulling the trigger.

What ? He has problems dodging it from distances greater then one meter, close range he only dodged it once, and its clearly an anti feat.

I'd also like to ask if someone could show me the manga version, if you have it. @Zefra3011 @RoggerReggor

Only way you can remotely prove an anti-feat is if he explicitly shows struggling against slower moving projectiles and such. That grazing feat you mentioned? It's not even close to being solid as you think it is.

He's struggling to dodge a bullet, he's comparable to bullets just like a character who gets grazed by another characters punch, they're comparable, and you can't be comparable to someone or something then be 4x faster then it.

 

[Arceus0x]

https://media.**********.net/attachments/1106665035759108248/1195450314191556719/932.png?ex=65b408dd&is=65a193dd&hm=c706c795ca74a60aeded8aef5b507b482c2ba1eba961a324326e1d151c6d2098&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1100&height=619https://media.**********.net/attachments/1106665035759108248/1195450311536562237/933.png?ex=65b408dc&is=65a193dc&hm=b86994042aebf96b4a235fc648653f9906de151dc0536ec6c85a2053d26e6afd&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1100&height=619
https://media.**********.net/attachments/1106665035759108248/1195450312023085116/934.png?ex=65b408dc&is=65a193dc&hm=c3f2a2f98e0931af57e9097fbbddc5d6891e55071ee9aa74f04c5def05b6830f&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1100&height=619https://media.**********.net/attachments/1106665035759108248/1195450312564146276/935.png?ex=65b408dc&is=65a193dc&hm=233f4bed2118eb71888926354d02b2be5dc080ab91a782da7a18e54b9fc63063&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1100&height=619
https://media.**********.net/attachments/1106665035759108248/1195450313122009218/936.png?ex=65b408dd&is=65a193dd&hm=4c0b824178334b7cfcd9ee09902015cba34fd47e312569b1b6ba75fa4c5c79f4&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1100&height=619https://media.**********.net/attachments/1106665035759108248/1195450313763721376/937.png?ex=65b408dd&is=65a193dd&hm=600e08017c35461eef7840bc3d2d6ab7692aff0fac7124bfc933201fa3846b54&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1100&height=619

I will have to say that Idk where this is in the manga since I haven't read it yet. What he says here is cho oonsoku no sogeki, cho oonsoku being supersonic rather than hypersonic. Either way Chuya here used his gravity manipulation to shoot at supersonic speeds which the blind guy could react to and recognize (he is extremely sensetive in every way other than sight) despite hearing no gunfire. So he can clearly recognize something moving at supersonic speed and thus can react to it properly as well (the swordsman seemed to parry the attack as well, at least partially).

Sorry for using discord scans, idk why but my upload speed has been heavily cut down for unknown reasons (maybe another form of sanctions or sth) so I imgur is kinda dead for me now.