The Amazing Digital Circus HUGE AP UPGRADE

[King_Dom470]

So I propose that everyone in the verse should downscale to Kaufmos 9-A feat since Ragatha was able to survive being beaten down by him and was only really injured from the glitching.

This is the calc btw

What i'm proposing: Likely Street level, possibly Small Building level For the main cast. For Kaufmo obviously just plain ol' 9-A is fine

 

[Thelastmlg]

Damn we already got pages huh, agreed

 

[StretchSebe]

It does seem the main danger to the cast from Abstractions is the glitching/digital corruption they can make them experience, the physical damage being secondary.

While probably not pleasant to be slapped around like that, Ragtha taking it and only really suffering pain due to the glitching/corruption said slapping around caused her suggests the cast should able to take the physical damage from Abstractions without much issue.

Even with the glitching/digital corruption, it seems like characters can take a very large amount of glitching/corruption, with the example of Ragatha, having it encompassing her entire body/being and still managing to survive, and be eventually healed later by Caine. Pomni also just walks around with a glitched hand, only the initial glitching seeming to really shock/hurt her.

I would agree.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

I disagree. Kaufmo was (literally) ragdolling Ragatha, she is very clearly weaker than him. She didn't die from his attacks, but she was put out of commission by them. Kaufmo was also seen as a deadly threat against Pomni and the others, with the implication being that she or anyone but Caine could deal with him

There's also the issue of them not being comparable. We don't see them harm each other, at least not with attacks that were intended to damage or kill, so there's really no basis to scale them all to each other aside from "they stand next to each other so they must be comparable!"

There's also the fact that Abstraction gives a clear boost in power alongside a much more monstrous form. Kaufmo's feat was done because he's so big and strong due to the abstraction

This would scale to Kaufmo and maybe the queen monster, but nobody else

was only really injured from the glitching.

You're mistaken. Kaufmo's attack is what caused her to be damaged, which caused the glitching

TL;DR - Nobody should scale to this, Kaufmo ragdolled Ragatha and she was powerless to fight back. This is like scaling a human being to 9-B because they survived an elephant attack

 

[King_Dom470]

You're mistaken. Kaufmo's attack is what caused her to be damaged, which caused the glitching

No glitching happens even when when only simple touching happens.

Also the human would 100% be 9-B if the elephant threw them around like Kaufmo threw Ragatha around

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Damn we already got pages huh, agreed

Well, the series is only 3 weeks old since it launched and it already has almost 100 million views.....

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Also the human would 100% be 9-B if the elephant threw them around like Kaufmo threw Ragatha around

I've seen a human get knocked around by an adult bull and be (relatively) fine

Also this wouldn't scale to AP

 

[Imaginym]

Checking the TADC Wiki, Pomni's page no longer has a height listing, putting the calc's measurement basises into question.

 

[King_Dom470]

I've seen a human get knocked around by an adult bull and be (relatively) fine

Also this wouldn't scale to AP

Sorry smashing through the ground shouldnt scale to ap?

 

[Imaginym]

I disagree. Kaufmo was (literally) ragdolling Ragatha, she is very clearly weaker than him. She didn't die from his attacks, but she was put out of commission by them. Kaufmo was also seen as a deadly threat against Pomni and the others, with the implication being that she or anyone but Caine could deal with him

Did you mean to say "with the implication being that she or anyone but Caine could not deal with him" there?

There's also the issue of them not being comparable. We don't see them harm each other, at least not with attacks that were intended to damage or kill, so there's really no basis to scale them all to each other aside from "they stand next to each other so they must be comparable!"

Eh, there's some evidence to the contrary:
1. When Pomni arrives, she bumps into Jax, knocking him over, causing the others to fall over.
2. When Jax pulls off the arm of Zooble (Likely not a feat, as Zooble's body is made of detachable parts, implied by the design & shown by the antenna swapping in a teaser, Zooble reattaching own arm later, etc.), Zooble chokes Jax, giving Jax great pain.
3. Jax also tosses a bowling ball at Kinger, knocking him into a hole, with Kinger unwittingly pulling Gangle down with him by her ribbon body. All 3 survive the slide down as well as tumbling through a group of Gloinks that are grouped like & resembling of bowling pins.

Arguably less of a feat, but Pomni also survives Caine's fast movement, albeit, with clear nausea after like, the 4th trip, implying the movement does physically affect the transported.
There's also a teaser that, IIRC, shows her being TK'd onto a target board by Caine & when we next see her, she has knives stuck to her, implying she had knives thrown at her.

I'd say there's some case for comparability amongst the cast, or at least some of it.

You're mistaken. Kaufmo's attack is what caused her to be damaged, which caused the glitching

To the credit of the argument that the glitching causes pain, after Pomni's adventure, by which time Ragatha has been abandoned glitching for a while, she is crawling to Caine, stating "I am in so much pain".
She was strained when speaking to Pomni beforehand, but she was also laying against a wall; I'd argue her expression of pain is noticeably greater LATER in the episode.
Yes, it's totally IC for Ragatha to hide her pain to not worry a friend, but her posture also implies she had been resting for a good amount of time. One should be in less pain, not more after resting. In theory, prolonged glitching worsened her pain.

AND she immediately acts as though she feels fine after Caine snap cures her; She was so pained as to be crawling while glitching, then she was standing.

Plus, a teaser shows Ragatha unfazed & unpained by having an axe thrown into her head; Why would she feel no pain from an axe piercing her head but would feel pain from being thrown into a wall?
I'd say the glitching causes pain.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

It seems good

 

[StretchSebe]

TL;DR - Nobody should scale to this, Kaufmo ragdolled Ragatha and she was powerless to fight back. This is like scaling a human being to 9-B because they survived an elephant attack

I've seen a human get knocked around by an adult bull and be (relatively) fine

Also this wouldn't scale to AP

In fairness, I do think it's odd that this wiki equates the ability to take or tank attacks as also an indicator of AP. Likewise, I also think it's weird that the wiki equates being able to deal a certain amount of damage as also being able to take it. That said, the wiki does follow the general rule that if a character can take X amount of damage, they are that tier as reliably as them being able to output it.

Again, there probably needs to be more room for characters who are stone walls (having much higher durability than ap) or glass cannons (much higher ap than durability), but as is, I've seen more egregious tiering with these standards.

Checking the TADC Wiki, Pomni's page no longer has a height listing, putting the calc's measurement basises into question.

Also shoot, I see it on Jax's page too. We gotta get on that. I've found an (early) 3D model sheet height comparison, but I'm wondering where the heck the numbers even came from now lol

 

[Imaginym]

In fairness, I do think it's odd that this wiki equates the ability to take or tank attacks as also an indicator of AP. Likewise, I also think it's weird that the wiki equates being able to deal a certain amount of damage as also being able to take it. That said, the wiki does follow the general rule that if a character can take X amount of damage, they are that tier as reliably as them being able to output it.

Again, there probably needs to be more room for characters who are stone walls (having much higher durability than ap) or glass cannons (much higher ap than durability), but as is, I've seen more egregious tiering with these standards.

The basis is supposedly is that being able to produce energy output requires being able to survive it as well.
"You don't break your own arm by throwing a punch." is the old mnemonic maxim, if my memory serves.

Also shoot, I see it on Jax's page too. We gotta get on that. I've found an (early) 3D model sheet height comparison, but I'm wondering where the heck the numbers even came from now lol

& I wonder where they got the models from to line them up like that.
Did a production member post that somewhere or something?

Edit: Description on the Wiki's TADC page links the chart, captioning it with "Early 3D concept characters' height chart by Gooseworx.".


Anyway, in the absence of character heights -Unless we wanna assume regular height for someone, like, IDK, Ragatha since she's human-like, & Pomni might be unusually short?- should we like, try to use standardized/assumed heights for something like a top hat, Caine's cane, doors? (Although, those all might be a bit variable in reality.)

 

[King_Dom470]

Also shoot, I see it on Jax's page too. We gotta get on that. I've found an (early) 3D model sheet height comparison, but I'm wondering where the heck the numbers even came from now lol

Still pomnis height seems about right since it’s basically just average woman’s height.

 

[StretchSebe]

The basis is supposedly is that being able to produce energy output requires being able to survive it as well.
"You don't break your own arm by throwing a punch." is the old mnemonic maxim, if my memory serves.

A bit flawed reasoning there (plenty more reasons an arm can break from a punch besides just ap/durability), but I guess it's applicable enough.

& I wonder where they got the models from to line them up like that.
Did a production member post that somewhere or something?

I'd have to assume so, as it was allegedly provided by Gooseworx, and they seem to basically be nearly identical (barring Ragatha being a bit more muted in color like she was in teasers, and Jax not having toes but just rounded nubs I think?). But then again, not sourced, so might be an issue to find that too

 

[StretchSebe]

Double bad news:

In trying to use google images 'find exact source' and cross referencing stuff, the earliest I can find of the image comes about 4 days after the pilot released, and the closest to an 'official' source is someone who has 'worked on streamily prints for Murder Drones' reposting it after asking for the sheet on twitter.

Which I mean, maybe someone else could find an earlier, and more official source it came from. I've just really struggled to over the last like 30 minutes of trying.

Also, the Ten Point pin gloink is huge. Proportionally, at least. Like a quarter of Jax's height. Could be bias, but I really doubt it's a normal sized, Ten Point pin.

Still pomnis height seems about right since it’s basically just average woman’s height.

All this to say: I'm going to pixel scale the model sheet to get heights, assuming both the sheet is actually an official, early 3D model sheet, and that Pomni has average female height at 5 feet 4 inches. Again, assuming the model sheet is legit early 3D model concept, and reliable/official.

 

[Imaginym]

Double bad news:

In trying to use google images 'find exact source' and cross referencing stuff, the earliest I can find of the image comes about 4 days after the pilot released, and the closest to an 'official' source is someone who has 'worked on streamily prints for Murder Drones' reposting it after asking for the sheet on twitter.

Which I mean, maybe someone else could find an earlier, and more official source it came from. I've just really struggled to over the last like 30 minutes of trying.

Big oof. Genuinely sorry for your troubles.

Also, the Ten Point pin gloink is huge. Proportionally, at least. Like a quarter of Jax's height. Could be bias, but I really doubt it's a normal sized, Ten Point pin.



All this to say: I'm going to pixel scale the model sheet to get heights, assuming both the sheet is actually an official, early 3D model sheet, and that Pomni has average female height at 5 feet 4 inches. Again, assuming the model sheet is legit early 3D model concept, and reliable/official.

What about using the bowling ball as a basis for height?

 

[StretchSebe]

Big oof. Genuinely sorry for your troubles.

Nah, it's fine. Just unfortunate.

What about using the bowling ball as a basis for height?

As said, we don't know the actual bowling ball size either. Like if it's size 8, or 10, etc.

 

[Imaginym]

Nah, it's fine. Just unfortunate.

As said, we don't know the actual bowling ball size either. Like if it's size 8, or 10, etc.

What about doing multiple ends for the possible bowling ball sizes?

 

[Arceus0x]

How the heck do you guys have a page for Jax and literally nobody else?

 

[King_Dom470]

How the heck do you guys have a page for Jax and literally nobody else?

There is one for ragatha and I have a blog for kaufmo I just haven’t posted it yet

 

[Imaginym]

How the heck do you guys have a page for Jax and literally nobody else?

To his credit, other than Kaufmo -Which we kinda need to work out the matter of determining the size of- Jax easily has the most feats.
Yes, Caine is more haxy, but he has less -I wouldn't say nonexistent, just less- basis for stats.

Just speculating.

Plus, there's a limit to how much ambition & effort a small community can put towards something. Even major verses often lack profiles for notable characters, such as many of those featured on Death Battle, for example.

 

[Arceus0x]

There is one for ragatha and I have a blog for kaufmo I just haven’t posted it yet

Still weird. Reminds me that I ought to make profiles for Murder Drones' actual murder drones since we have the MC and two villains but the mascots themselves, N and V

 

[King_Dom470]

Bump

 

[King_Dom470]

Bump

 

[StretchSebe]

Among other things, maybe the characters would also get a stamina upgrade due to (according to Gooseworx in the Q&A yesterday) feeling less pain than they would in the real world?

 

[King_Dom470]

Among other things, maybe the characters would also get a stamina upgrade due to (according to Gooseworx in the Q&A yesterday) feeling less pain than they would in the real world?

Agreed I’ll add that to the thing

 

[King_Dom470]

But what stam should they get?

 

[Imaginym]

I vaguely recall Jax bent over & panting at 1 point. I THINK after he fled Abstracted Kaufmo?

Otherwise, though.... I'd wanna check Kinger's dialogue about hunger.
I also remember stuff from GlitchX about how they can eat & taste food, they just can't digest.
Jax at at least 1 point, expresses hunger; Near the end of episode 1, as well as after the Gloinks get Zooble, when Jax asks anyone if they wanna go get something to eat. Him suggesting food could just be him being comedically callous, but it's also a little weird to suggest going for food if not hungry.
Jax also claimed to Pomni that they've been in there for years, & the intro states "day after day".
Zooble was opposed to redoing the intro... but was also opposed to doing the in-house adventure for their new arrival Pomni. Could just be disdain for Caine, emotional apathy, or indeed actual, factual, physical fatigue.
There was also Ragatha crawling back to Caine while glitched, some time after leaning against a wall talking to Pomni, but the speed, timeframe & distance for that are all rather unclear.

I also recall a Gooseworx Tumblr post where someone asked what the cast would taste like, & Gooseworx said "electricity & numbers" or such.
As well as stuff from GlitchX about how without the hat, the uncovered parts of Pomni's head wouldn't be visible, like with backface culling of a model & such. Add on to how hollow she looks internally during her attempted "headset removal", & I'd question how much they have internally.

Although Pomni vomiting after being moved by Caine like, 4 times does bring up questions about their insides. & their Stamina, of course.

Curious physiology, no?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Here's how I'd Handle it

First, you ask Gooseworx how tall the cast is, that is a general question that's just like "oh cool"

From there when we recalc, Ragatha massively downscales in durability, not only did Kaufmo kool-aid Man the floor with his whole body, but Ragatha could only crawl after her beating

And who scales to Ragatha?

...

Nobody. Not Jax. Not Pomni. Not even Caine cause he lacks the feats.

 

[Imaginym]

Here's how I'd Handle it

First, you ask Gooseworx how tall the cast is, that is a general question that's just like "oh cool"

There's no guarantee they answer that, though.
In the absence of that getting answered, what about using like, an assumption of standard size for the bowling ball?
Do multiple ends for the possible sizes, if need be?

From there when we recalc, Ragatha massively downscales in durability, not only did Kaufmo kool-aid Man the floor with his whole body, but Ragatha could only crawl after her beating

To her credit, she did also experience extreme pain, seemingly from glitching -Which seems more plausible based on the GlitchX statements about lessened pain. & accounting for how she acts fine as soon as Caine snap-cures her- & also from the GlitchX statements, her code was damaged or such, IIRC.
To her discredit, she does crawl after resting, but for an unknown amount of time, distance & speed mostly, but the pain & difficulty moving may've been from the glitching, not the beating.

And who scales to Ragatha?

...

Nobody. Not Jax. Not Pomni. Not even Caine cause he lacks the feats.

Other than being thrown around by Abstracted Kaufmo, Ragatha does lack feats, yeah.
But as I said here:

1. When Pomni arrives, she bumps into Jax, knocking him over, causing the others to fall over.
2. When Jax pulls off the arm of Zooble (Likely not a feat, as Zooble's body is made of detachable parts, implied by the design & shown by the antenna swapping in a teaser, Zooble reattaching own arm later, etc.), Zooble chokes Jax, giving Jax great pain.
3. Jax also tosses a bowling ball at Kinger, knocking him into a hole, with Kinger unwittingly pulling Gangle down with him by her ribbon body. All 3 survive the slide down as well as tumbling through a group of Gloinks that are grouped like & resembling of bowling pins.

Arguably less of a feat, but Pomni also survives Caine's fast movement, albeit, with clear nausea after like, the 4th trip, implying the movement does physically affect the transported.
There's also a teaser that, IIRC, shows her being TK'd onto a target board by Caine & when we next see her, she has knives stuck to her, implying she had knives thrown at her.

So what of the case of the comparability amongst the rest of the cast?

The others seem comparable to each other, why would Ragatha be the exceptional circus performer they're all not comparable to?

No offense meant, & sorry for any bother.

 

[DaReaperMan]

There's no guarantee they answer that, though.
In the absence of that getting answered, what about using like, an assumption of standard size for the bowling ball?
Do multiple ends for the possible sizes, if need be?

She's pretty consistent on answering questions like that lol

To her credit, she did also experience extreme pain, seemingly from glitching -Which seems more plausible based on the GlitchX statements about lessened pain. & accounting for how she acts fine as soon as Caine snap-cures her- & also from the GlitchX statements, her code was damaged or such, IIRC.
To her discredit, she does crawl after resting, but for an unknown amount of time, distance & speed mostly, but the pain & difficulty moving may've been from the glitching, not the beating.

That's Moreso Stamina lol

Other than being thrown around by Abstracted Kaufmo, Ragatha does lack feats, yeah.
But as I said here:

So what of the case of the comparability amongst the rest of the cast?

The others seem comparable to each other, why would Ragatha be the exceptional circus performer they're all not comparable to?

No offense meant, & sorry for any bother.

Because Ragatha is the only one nobody seems to do shit to, everyone else besides Caine and Bubble harms eachother, Ragatha seems to be the exception here for whatever reason

 

[Imaginym]

She's pretty consistent on answering questions like that lol

Is she? Her Tumblr has thousands of messages -She posted a screenshot of that a while back- & at some points, she's turned asks off.

That's Moreso Stamina lol

You said:
"but Ragatha could only crawl after her beating".
But how do we know her crawling isn't because of the code damage, the severe pain, or even glitching moving her parts about making her not able to stand steadily?

Because Ragatha is the only one nobody seems to do shit to, everyone else besides Caine and Bubble harms eachother, Ragatha seems to be the exception here for whatever reason

Yeah, but there's only been 1 episode; There hasn't been much opportunity for her to be harmed by the other characters. (Technically, there's Jax tripping her, but that's not really Jax's Attack Potency/Striking Strength at work.) The majority of Ragatha's role in episode 1 is going to check on Kaufmo with Pomni & Jax & she practically doesn't interact with anyone else for the rest of the episode.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Is she? Her Tumblr has thousands of messages -She posted a screenshot of that a while back- & at some points, she's turned asks off.

Fairly often she is yeah

"but Ragatha could only crawl after her beating".
But how do we know her crawling isn't because of the code damage, the severe pain, or even glitching moving her parts about making her not able to stand steadily?

She could slump against a wall and talk okay, so maybe it is cause of damage, one way or the other nobody but Kaufmo scales fully

Yeah, but there's only been 1 episode; There hasn't been much opportunity for her to be harmed by the other characters. (Technically, there's Jax tripping her, but that's not really Jax's Attack Potency/Striking Strength at work.) The majority of Ragatha's role in episode 1 is going to check on Kaufmo with Pomni & Jax & she practically doesn't interact with anyone else for the rest of the episode.

Yeah lol, this is why I don't like just making profiles for new shit

 

[Imaginym]

Fairly often she is yeah

Fair, but I feel unable to ask her myself, & would hope someone else would ask.

She could slump against a wall and talk okay, so maybe it is cause of damage, one way or the other nobody but Kaufmo scales fully

Talking is a free action.

Yeah lol, this is why I don't like just making profiles for new shit

Stats do need to be hammered out a bit here, yeah.


So, the options are (controversial as some may be), include at least:

A. Ragatha is a "stone wall", being notably more durable than her Attack Potency/Striking Strength.
B. Ragatha scales to Kaufmo, but because no one else has hurt her, no one scales to Ragatha. (We don't know who threw the axe at her in the teaser.)
C. The performers are assumed to be comparable since most of the performers can hurt one another & we don't have much to work with yet, so Ragatha is scaled to.


Also, thinking on it, there is Caine lifting Abstracted Kaufmo. Nobody scales to Caine, but could this mean Caine can overpower Abstracted Kaufmo's LS, since sometimes LS & Telekinesis interact?

 

[DaReaperMan]

A. Ragatha is a "stone wall", being notably more durable than her Attack Potency/Striking Strength.
B. Ragatha scales to Kaufmo, but because no one else has hurt her, no one scales to Ragatha. (We don't know who threw the axe at her in the teaser.)
C. The performers are assumed to be comparable since most of the performers can hurt one another & we don't have much to work with yet, so Ragatha is scaled to.

I'd go for A. Personally

 

[StretchSebe]

A. Ragatha is a "stone wall", being notably more durable than her Attack Potency/Striking Strength.
B. Ragatha scales to Kaufmo, but because no one else has hurt her, no one scales to Ragatha. (We don't know who threw the axe at her in the teaser.)
C. The performers are assumed to be comparable since most of the performers can hurt one another & we don't have much to work with yet, so Ragatha is scaled to.

I think a mix of A and C. A because she definitely shows the durability to survive such despite not doing any AP/Striking things, and C because for all intents and purposes, the performers should scale to one another. Zoobles can hurt Jax can hurt Kinger and Gangle, Jax easily tripped Ragatha, etc.

Unless there's going to be distinctions in the next or coming episodes, it seems like they're all relative to one another, and operate on the same relative toon force.

Also, thinking on it, there is Caine lifting Abstracted Kaufmo. Nobody scales to Caine, but could this mean Caine can overpower Abstracted Kaufmo's LS, since sometimes LS & Telekinesis interact?

Oh, that's a good question actually. I wouldn't know how to go about telekinesis LS, assuming it is different from calculating regular LS.

I'd go for A. Personally

As said, I think the performers are relative to one another (except Caine, who is probably some tiers above the rest), but with the case of Ragatha, it's much more about durability. Like I also said in an earlier post though, this wiki doesn't give a lot of room for 'walls' and 'glass canon' characters. Which is odd given how common they can be across fiction. If we're simply going by the wiki rules, Ragatha, and by extension the rest of the performers, seem to downscale.

Also, it hasn't been shown, so I don't mean to do some sort of pre-emptive black swan fallacy, but we know from Gooseworx statements that the performers all experience less pain from things than they would irl (see Ragatha brushing off an axe being cleaved into her 'skull'). That in addition to the fact that the only danger the abstracted Kaufmo genuinely posed to the performers was damaging their code, and not in the physical harm they could deal to them indicates that they all seem like they'd share a pretty high tolerance to both damage, and pain (due to it being dampened in the digital realm compared to the real world).

Basically, Ragatha may intuitively seem more durable than the rest, but there's good reason to believe that she wouldn't be the only one of this durability/down scaling.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I think a mix of A and C. A because she definitely shows the durability to survive such despite not doing any AP/Striking things, and C because for all intents and purposes, the performers should scale to one another. Zoobles can hurt Jax can hurt Kinger and Gangle, Jax easily tripped Ragatha, etc.

It's not hard to trip someone

Unless there's going to be distinctions in the next or coming episodes, it seems like they're all relative to one another, and operate on the same relative toon force.

It wouldn't make sense for them not to be, but where's da proof?

Oh, that's a good question actually. I wouldn't know how to go about telekinesis LS, assuming it is different from calculating regular LS.

Same as any other LS feats, just don't scale to either Character's normal/physical LS without proof

As said, I think the performers are relative to one another (except Caine, who is probably some tiers above the rest), but with the case of Ragatha, it's much more about durability. Like I also said in an earlier post though, this wiki doesn't give a lot of room for 'walls' and 'glass canon' characters. Which is odd given how common they can be across fiction. If we're simply going by the wiki rules, Ragatha, and by extension the rest of the performers, seem to downscale.

Also, it hasn't been shown, so I don't mean to do some sort of pre-emptive black swan fallacy, but we know from Gooseworx statements that the performers all experience less pain from things than they would irl (see Ragatha brushing off an axe being cleaved into her 'skull'). That in addition to the fact that the only danger the abstracted Kaufmo genuinely posed to the performers was damaging their code, and not in the physical harm they could deal to them indicates that they all seem like they'd share a pretty high tolerance to both damage, and pain (due to it being dampened in the digital realm compared to the real world).

Basically, Ragatha may intuitively seem more durable than the rest, but there's good reason to believe that she wouldn't be the only one of this durability/down scaling.

Yes, but we don't have proof of that

Which is why I generally disagree with jumping the gun on shit like this

 

[King_Dom470]

I mean Ragatha doesn’t really have anything that makes her clearly superior to anyone else so I don't see why they wouldn’t all be comparable to each other

 

[DaReaperMan]

I mean Ragatha doesn’t really have anything that makes her clearly superior to anyone else so I don't see why they wouldn’t all be comparable to each other

Is there anything for Ragatha being Harmed by any known member of the cast besides Kaufmo?