Question about MGK Venuzdonoa

[Bahaha]

Venuzdonoa has straight-up immeasurable combat speed for striking an opponent before being swung (which doesn't automatically give immeasurable speed and has shaky justification) but at the same time has Causality Manipulation for being able to manipulate the laws of causality (Explicitly stated to destroy all reasons including causality) and have been shown to reverse causality, and even make their attacks hit first, or make attacks undodgeable then why is this immeasurable combat speed instead of an addition of causality manipulation and time manipulation?
There are Gáe Bolg and Fragarach two weapons with similar justification, which is attributed to their time manipulation and causality manipulation with speed being unknown "(Due to its mechanics, it always strikes first and is effectively instant once activated)".

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

Well even I have some doubts on that

 

[Vietthai96]

Venuzdonoa has straight-up immeasurable combat speed for striking an opponent before being swung (which doesn't automatically give immeasurable speed and has shaky justification) but at the same time has Causality Manipulation for being able to manipulate the laws of causality (Explicitly stated to destroy all reasons including causality) and have been shown to reverse causality, and even make their attacks hit first, or make attacks undodgeable then why is this immeasurable combat speed instead of an addition of causality manipulation and time manipulation?
There are Gáe Bolg and Fragarach two weapons with similar justification, which is attributed to their time manipulation and causality manipulation with speed being unknown "(Due to its mechanics, it always strikes first and is effectively instant once activated)".

1. While the sword do have causality hax, you need to prove that the scene where Anos used Venuzdonoa strike against Ivis is done via causality hax, the visual of the scene simply is Anos swung his sword and Ivis got slashed before Anos even raise Venuz

2. Venuz also scale to Shin who can deliver his strike into the past, make that his strike hit his opponent before he even draw his sword

 

[Bahaha]

1. While the sword do have causality hax, you need to prove that the scene where Anos used Venuzdonoa strike against Ivis is done via causality hax, the visual of the scene simply is Anos swung his sword and Ivis got slashed before Anos even raise Venuz

Veuzdonoa has causality hax based on destroying the reason of causality, reversing causality (attacking before swinging [effect -> cause]) is a prime example of causality hax. While the scene itself never states the reason it is able to do that, we can infer from the sword's destruction of causality that it can reverse causality. However, the profile's justification for why the scene correlates to it's combat speed is shaky, which leads me to this:

2. Venuz also scale to Shin who can deliver his strike into the past, make that his strike hit his opponent before he even draw his sword

How does Venuzdonoa scaling have anything to do with the attribute of Shin's sword? Like this is the thing I don't get from the profile, Venuzdonoa's property of destroying reason somehow meaning it is similar to Bladeless Sword <Cadenalios> which exists in the past doesn't make any logical sense. Do you guys mean to say that from Venuzdonoa being reasonless, it is reasonable to make the assumption that it also exists in the past like <Cadenalios>? That's the only thing I can make sense of from that scaling, and I hope it is not because that "reasoning" is dumb.

"it's pointless to think about the "what", "how", or "why", therefore it should be comparable to Shin Reglia's Bladeless Sword <Cadenalios>" Has no actual justification, no scans showing why it should be "comparable" at all, it has no reason to make the claim that the two swords with different properties are similar. The only thing it says is that it just compares because it breaks all reason. If you can add anything to a profile because you can say "no reason" then the profile shouldn't even be used in a vs battle.

 

[Fixxed]

Just like @Vietthai96 say

Basically venuzdonoa dont use all of it ability at once. So it not always it use the causality manipulation for it attack

Due to its mechanics, it always strikes first and is effectively instant once activated

Well venuzdonoa case is not instant is faster that instant speed. You can say the attack it self is travel to future and affect the enemy even before the wielder make the attack

 

[Bahaha]

Just like @Vietthai96 say

Basically venuzdonoa dont use all of it ability at once. So it not always it use the causality manipulation for it attack

But then how do you know that the scan shows the speed of Venuzdonoa?

Well venuzdonoa case is not instant is faster that instant speed. You can say the attack it self is travel to future and affect the enemy even before the wielder make the attack

Fragarach reverses causality and time, it attacks before the opponent uses their NP once activated after. I don't see how the sword Venuzdonoa physically moves to the past to attack, and the only thing we can do is make assumptions of the sword.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

But then how do you know that the scan shows the speed of Venuzdonoa?

Fragarach reverses causality and time, it attacks before the opponent uses their NP once activated after. I don't see how the sword Venuzdonoa physically moves to the past to attack, and the only thing we can do is make assumptions of the sword.

Link the profile and skill I want to see how both are same. What you explaining doesn't align with Venozdonor explanation.

 

[Bahaha]

Link the profile and skill I want to see how both are same. What you explaining doesn't align with Venozdonor explanation.

Fragarach

Fragarach is the Noble Phantasm of the Celtic war god Lugh. It is one of the few Noble Phantasms that remains in the world, and one of the even fewer to be utilized by a human as a Mystic Code. It is the Mystic Code of the Fraga family and has been passed down through its users throughout...

vsbattles.fandom.com

For more details, check the notable attacks/techniques of the weapon.

The weapon demonstrates how an already pre-existing showcase of an ability that manipulates causality and time, means that you have to be careful with the speed of the weapon. You can't just add immeasurable speed on a weapon with bad justification and call it a day.
Also isn't the "explanation" of Venuzdonoa just a scan, and scaling?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Fragarach

Fragarach is the Noble Phantasm of the Celtic war god Lugh. It is one of the few Noble Phantasms that remains in the world, and one of the even fewer to be utilized by a human as a Mystic Code. It is the Mystic Code of the Fraga family and has been passed down through its users throughout...

vsbattles.fandom.com

For more details, check the notable attacks/techniques of the weapon.

The weapon demonstrates how an already pre-existing showcase of an ability that manipulates causality and time, means that you have to be careful with the speed of the weapon. You can't just add immeasurable speed on a weapon with bad justification and call it a day.
Also isn't the "explanation" of Venuzdonoa just a scan, and scaling?

Stop twisting the words. The profile you linked talks about reversing time but Venozdonor isn't.

Bazett can prepare Fragarach to counter it, reversing time back to the moment immediately before they use that attack and instantly piercing the heart of the target involved with a conceptual curse. It not only reverses time, but also cause and effect, creating a contradictory effect.

Moving through time ≠ Reversing time. What you are giving is false Analogy.

Shin sword is clearly talking about speed not reversing time.

Faster than the blade could glint, the sword disappeared from the world. Lay somehow managed to stand his ground by bracing the Sword of Intent at the last moment. A vibrant clash rang throughout the flower field. Flowers flew into the air.

“That was close, but—” Lay broke off midsentence, falling to his knees. “What? Urgh...”

A gash opened from his shoulder to his abdomen. He had been slashed by the sword he’d thought he had blocked.

“What was that?” he asked through heavy breaths.

“That was Moment: the first hidden art of the Bladeless Sword.”

Unable to find the strength to stand up, Lay fell onto the floor of flowers. His wounds were recovering through his healing magic, but progress was slow.

“I was struck before you finished swinging,” he mumbled.

Shin nodded quietly. “The Bladeless Sword, as its name suggests, has no blade. Instead, it boasts unprecedented weight and strength for a demon sword. That said, this demon sword’s true power lies in its source. Cadenalios’s blade doesn’t exist in the present time, but is constantly cutting one moment in the past.”

The moment Shin had swung his sword down, Cadenalios’s blade had traced back through time to cut Lay one moment in the past. In other words, the blade had touched him before Shin even swung the sword.

 

[Tatsumi504]

It's quite simple. On one hand, Venuzdonoa has causality hax for making a slower attack, outspeed a faster one despite the faster attack being activated first. In other words, it doesn't matter how fast an attack is or which happens first, Venuzdonoa will always be faster.

It has been established that Venuzdonoa will always remain the faster weapon and in light of that you have Shin's bladeless sword Cadenalios which traces and cuts through time to cut an opponent a moment in the past, cutting them before the sword is even swung. Venuzdonoa will still remain faster than even this weapon.
Now it's one thing if Venuzdonoa is reversing an event that has already happened but both these events are happening at the same time.

Simply having hax is not enough to ignore a speed difference between finite speed and immeasurable. Any match made between an immeasurable speed character and one with finite speed ends with the immeasurable one winning regardless of how haxed the other one is even with causality hax in play. In other words, Venuzdonoa remains faster than even something with immeasurable speed

There's also a difference between the weapons you're using for comparison. It is reversing time and causality. The weapon Venuzdonoa is scaling to travels back through time to cut an enemy in the past even before the user has swung their weapon

 

[Bahaha]

Stop twisting the words. The profile you linked talks about reversing time but Venozdonor isn't.

Moving through time ≠ Reversing time. What you are giving is false Analogy.

Shin sword is clearly talking about speed not reversing time.

First, I am using a pre-existing ability that the sword has to give context to the scan which has no context.

Second, you're claiming that Venuzdonoa is not reversing time because it isn't. Instead ANOTHER sword has the property of existing in the past, therefore Venuzdonoa is not reversing time. I fail to see the causation of how you got this reasoning.

Let's first determine how Venuzdonoa is comparable/has the same properties as <Cadenalios> first.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Instead ANOTHER sword has the property of existing in the past, therefore Venuzdonoa is not reversing time. I fail to see the causation of how you got this reasoning.

It isn't existing in the past. It travels through time to attack an enemy in the past. What you're comparing with is obviously different

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

First, I am using a pre-existing ability that the sword has to give context to the scan which has no context.

Second, you're claiming that Venuzdonoa is not reversing time because it isn't. Instead ANOTHER sword has the property of existing in the past, therefore Venuzdonoa is not reversing time. I fail to see the causation of how you got this reasoning.

What pre existing? Blade existing in Past doesn't attack automatically. It does travels through time read the full scan.

The moment Shin had swung his sword down, Cadenalios’s blade had traced back through time to cut Lay one moment in the past. In other words, the blade had touched him before Shin even swung the sword.

Let's first determine how Venuzdonoa is comparable/has the same properties as <Cadenalios> first.

Both has similar feats and show me a scan where Venozdonor uses time manipulation. It destroys the reason not uses time manipulation. You are completely making things which doesn't exists.

 

[Bahaha]

It's quite simple. On one hand, Venuzdonoa has causality hax for making a slower attack, outspeed a faster one despite the faster attack being activated first. In other words, it doesn't matter how fast an attack is or which happens first, Venuzdonoa will always be faster.

That's an ability, so the speed should be unknown with the justification of the sword being instant. Like Fragarach.

It has been established that Venuzdonoa will always remain the faster weapon and in light of that you have Shin's bladeless sword Cadenalios which traces and cuts through time to cut an opponent a moment in the past, cutting them before the sword is even swung. Venuzdonoa will still remain faster than even this weapon.
Now it's one thing if Venuzdonoa is reversing an event that has already happened but both these events are happening at the same time.


Simply having hax is not enough to ignore a speed difference between finite speed and immeasurable. Any match made between an immeasurable speed character and one with finite speed ends with the immeasurable one winning regardless of how haxed the other one is even with causality hax in play. In other words, Venuzdonoa remains faster than even something with immeasurable speed

Okay so has Venuzdonoa faced <Cadenalios>? If it has, then why not use that instead of scaling the two incomparable weapons? While that is impressive, that would be an ability-based speed, it should be justified in the speed rating with unknown/the fastest speed it has because we don't know how it affects a person who resists the ability of Venuzdonoa.

There's also a difference between the weapons you're using for comparison. It is reversing time and causality. The weapon Venuzdonoa is scaling to travels back through time to cut an enemy in the past even before the user has swung their weapon

Let me say this first, I am using those two as examples because their speed rating is unknown due to it's ability. If the weapon's speed is related to its ability, then the speed should be the fastest it has shown without the ability and unknown rating with the ability speed justification. However, I still don't see the reason why the two weapons are scaled to each other, and I will quote this again:

"it's pointless to think about the "what", "how", or "why", therefore it should be comparable to Shin Reglia's Bladeless Sword <Cadenalios>" Has no actual justification, no scans showing why it should be "comparable" at all, it has no reason to make the claim that the two swords with different properties are similar. The only thing it says is that it just compares because it breaks all reason. If you can add anything to a profile because you can say "no reason" then the profile shouldn't even be used in a vs battle.

 

[Bahaha]

What pre existing?

The pre-existing ability is causality manipulation in the profile. I am using this ability to give context to the scan of Venuzdonoa striking, which has no other context.

Blade existing in Past doesn't attack automatically. It does travels through time read the full scan.

The scan says that doesn't exist in the present time, instead it cuts one moment in the past.
I acknowledge that <Cadenalios> has immeasurable combat speed, and I have repeatedly said that the "justification" comparing Venuzdonoa and <Cadenalios> is terrible and doesn't make sense.

Both has similar feats and show me a scan where Venozdonor uses time manipulation. It destroys the reason not uses time manipulation. You are completely making things which doesn't exists.

"Both have similar feats" Only one feat can be replicated by many other abilities that Venuzdonoa already has, while <Cadenalios> is specifically stated to be not in the present time and attacks the past. And please don't tell me that it "destroys reason of time, not time manipulation" because every manipulation ability it has in its profile is based on destroying their reason. Destroying the reason of causality is literally what reversing causality would be because causality is Cause -> Effect while destroying that reason would make it Effect -> Cause.

 

[Bahaha]

It isn't existing in the past. It travels through time to attack an enemy in the past. What you're comparing with is obviously different

Venuzdonoa Profile Creation

Hello, the premise of this thread is simple and is as follows. Separate the Venuzdonoa section from Anos profile and create a separate profile for it as was previously done a few years ago. Here's the sandbox of the new profile...

vsbattles.com

Read what the person who created the profile says.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

The pre-existing ability is causality manipulation in the profile. I am using this ability to give context to the scan of Venuzdonoa striking, which has no other context.

The scan says that doesn't exist in the present time, instead it cuts one moment in the past.
I acknowledge that <Cadenalios> has immeasurable combat speed, and I have repeatedly said that the "justification" comparing Venuzdonoa and <Cadenalios> is terrible and doesn't make sense.

"Both have similar feats" Only one feat can be replicated by many other abilities that Venuzdonoa already has, while <Cadenalios> is specifically stated to be not in the present time and attacks the past. And please don't tell me that it "destroys reason of time, not time manipulation" because every manipulation ability it has in its profile is based on destroying their reason. Destroying the reason of causality is literally what reversing causality would be because causality is Cause -> Effect while destroying that reason would make it Effect -> Cause.

It's quite simple. On one hand, Venuzdonoa has causality hax for making a slower attack, outspeed a faster one despite the faster attack being activated first. In other words, it doesn't matter how fast an attack is or which happens first, Venuzdonoa will always be faster.

It has been established that Venuzdonoa will always remain the faster weapon and in light of that you have Shin's bladeless sword Cadenalios which traces and cuts through time to cut an opponent a moment in the past, cutting them before the sword is even swung. Venuzdonoa will still remain faster than even this weapon.
Now it's one thing if Venuzdonoa is reversing an event that has already happened but both these events are happening at the same time.

Simply having hax is not enough to ignore a speed difference between finite speed and immeasurable. Any match made between an immeasurable speed character and one with finite speed ends with the immeasurable one winning regardless of how haxed the other one is even with causality hax in play. In other words, Venuzdonoa remains faster than even something with immeasurable speed

There's also a difference between the weapons you're using for comparison. It is reversing time and causality. The weapon Venuzdonoa is scaling to travels back through time to cut an enemy in the past even before the user has swung their weapon

^^ not gonna bother repeating the same.

 

[Vietthai96]

unless you can prove that in the scene where Anos used Venuz against Ivis involve causality hax, it mean nothing, multiple characters across fictions verse both have Immeasurable speed and causality hax, so it suddenly mean they lose immeasurable speed because all their "speed feat" is causality hax feat??

Edit: Fragarach or Gae Bolg isn't a counter argument, because they was explicitly established that when active they reverse cause and effect to strike

 

[Tatsumi504]

That's an ability, so the speed should be unknown with the justification of the sword being instant. Like Fragarach.

Not when it's faster than something with immeasurable speed

Okay so has Venuzdonoa faced <Cadenalios>? If it has, then why not use that instead of scaling the two incomparable weapons? While that is impressive, that would be an ability-based speed, it should be justified in the speed rating with unknown/the fastest speed it has because we don't know how it affects a person who resists the ability of Venuzdonoa.

What ability based speed? Venuzdonoa is passive (, it doesn't need to activate anything. Venuzdonoa automatically scales above everything in the verse (that isn't Anos) based on its description and feats.
Resists what? It destroys logic to always remain faster. There's nothing to resist.

Let me say this first, I am using those two as examples because their speed rating is unknown due to it's ability

Their ability doesn't even qualify for any rating

Read what the person who created the profile says.

Read what is in the scan. You misinterpreting what is stated isn't my problem.

 

[Bahaha]

Not when it's faster than something with immeasurable speed

It is still an ability. Even if it is something impressive, it is still an ability that needs to be listed as such and can be resisted.

What ability based speed? Venuzdonoa is passive (, it doesn't need to activate anything. Venuzdonoa automatically scales above everything in the verse (that isn't Anos) based on its description and feats.
Resists what? It destroys logic to always remain faster. There's nothing to resist.

Since you aren't showing any scans of Venuzdonoa facing <Cadenalios> I will assume that the previous message you wrote was a hypothetical battle that you made with the assumption that Venuzdonoa will overpower it.

I hope you realize that it is still an ability. It doesn't matter if Venuzdonoa is passive, or whatever, it is still an ability that can be resisted and so the opponent who resists the ability won't be fighting an immeasurable combat speed attack.

Their ability doesn't even qualify for any rating

SO. Are you saying that the ability that goes back in time and attacks the opponent does not qualify for any rating of speed? I do think so too, which is why I listed those two examples.

Read what is in the scan. You misinterpreting what is stated isn't my problem.

I read the scan, it says that the sword doesn't exist in the present time and attacks in the past, what do you think this means? Even Dereck came to the same conclusion as me, and so did other people in that thread.

 

[Bahaha]

unless you can prove that in the scene where Anos used Venuz against Ivis involve causality hax, it mean nothing, multiple characters across fictions verse both have Immeasurable speed and causality hax, so it suddenly mean they lose immeasurable speed because all their "speed feat" is causality hax feat??

The sword passively destroys reason (including reason of time and causality), it is you who has to prove that Venuzdonoa destroying reason isn't passive.
If their speed feat is based on causality hax feat, then yes they don't gain any speed rating because the ability can be resisted and therefore there is no speed for that.

 

[Bahaha]

^^ not gonna bother repeating the same.

So your justification of immeasurable combat speed is going to be a hypothetical battle between Venuzdonoa and <Cadenalios>, and you agree with their view that it is an ability of higher law manipulation. This thread was primarily based on the justification for Venudonoa speed being terrible, what sort of justification is "so it's pointless to think about the "what", "how", or "why", therefore it is comparable"??
That just tells the viewer to "don't think too much, it doesn't matter that there is no reason, it just is"

 

[Tatsumi504]

Even if it is something impressive, it is still an ability that needs to be listed as such and can be resisted.

You resist something that is directed at you. Venuzdonoa doesn't affect it's opponent to become faster than them, it just remains faster than them

Since you aren't showing any scans of Venuzdonoa facing <Cadenalios> I will assume that the previous message you wrote was a hypothetical battle that you made with the assumption that Venuzdonoa will overpower it.

Prove Cadenalios is faster than Venuzdonoa. What you're asking for is proof that x is faster than y when x has already been stated to be the fastest thing there is.

SO. Are you saying that the ability that goes back in time and attacks the opponent does not qualify for any rating of speed? I do think so too, which is why I listed those two examples.

The means by which they go back in time is what matters. One is hax, the other is physically traveling through time.

I read the scan, it says that the sword doesn't exist in the present time and attacks in the past, what do you think this means? Even Dereck came to the same conclusion as me, and so did other people in that thread.

Literally clarifies what it meant in the next paragraph

The moment Shin had swung his sword down, Cadenalios’s blade had traced back through time to cut Lay one moment in the past. In other words, the blade had touched him before Shin even swung the sword.

That is you misunderstanding what they said.

The sword passively destroys reason (including reason of time and causality)

This shit is not stated anywhere. Order of Causality is even introduced until Vol 11.

 

[Bahaha]

You resist something that is directed at you. Venuzdonoa doesn't affect it's opponent to become faster than them, it just remains faster than them

Prove Cadenalios is faster than Venuzdonoa. What you're asking for is proof that x is faster than y when x has already been stated to be the fastest thing there is.

Do you understand what you are trying to say? When you use the ability to become the fastest by manipulating the laws of the world, then you are ultimately using law manipulation to say that you are faster than the opponent. If the opponent works in a different set of laws or resists law manipulation then the law that "Venuzdonoa is the fastest" wouldn't apply to them, and so Venuzdonoa won't be faster than them. It's like this: Venuzdonoa uses causality manipulation to make their attack hit first, the opponent works in an irregular system of causality so Venuzdonoa attacking first doesn't happen, instead, it will attack at the speed that it originally has. When you add on one side then you must subtract from the other side.


<Cadenalios> and Venuzdonoa haven't fought, anything you say will be based on assumptions. Even then the reason it is the fastest thing is because it manipulates causality to attack before the opponent, which is still a ability.

However I think I am starting to understand the justification a little, does it mean that "since Venuzdonoa breaks all reason (one of them being to be the fastest) therefore it should be faster than <Cadenalios>"? Still, unless a fight between Venuzdonoa and <Cadenalios> has happened, then it shouldn't be in the profile at all and the justification is still shaky.

The means by which they go back in time is what matters. One is hax, the other is physically traveling through time.

But that's the thing, nothing indicates Venuzdonoa physically travels through time. The only thing in the profile is an assumption that because it breaks all reasons, it should be compared to <Cadenalios>. Not to mention, what you are proposing is that Venuzdonoa destroys logic and is the fastest, which would be hax.

Literally clarifies what it meant in the next paragraph That is you misunderstanding what they said.

I will concede on this, it could mean either thing, however, that doesn't matter because it will still be immeasurable combat speed for <Cadenalios>.

This shit is not stated anywhere. Order of Causality is even introduced until Vol 11.

wait this anos doesn't have acausality type 4?
Even then, Venuzondoa still passively destroys all order, laws, and reason. The order of causality (even if only mentioned in Vol 11) is still an order that Venuzondoa passively destroys.

 

[KingNanaya]

Stop twisting the words. The profile you linked talks about reversing time but Venozdonor isn't.

Gae Bolg is a better example, where it explicitly states that cause and effect are reversed

 

[Reiner04]

@EldemadeDityjon @ImmortalDread @Dereck03 @Fixxed @Tatsumi504 all of you stop wanking.

 

[KingNanaya]

@EldemadeDityjon @ImmortalDread @Dereck03 @Fixxed @Tatsumi504 all of you stop wanking.

agree fra

 

[PrinceofPein]

Whats the cause of all the fuss?
It has an ability where it is always faster than all attacks and all other weapons it goes against but also has immeasurable speed for the same reason, correct?

Also unrelated but hax is enough to cover any difference in speed, especially a hax like causality hax

 

[Dereck03]

Whats the cause of all the fuss?
It has an ability where it is always faster than all attacks and all other weapons it goes against but also has immeasurable speed for the same reason, correct?

Seems like bros were cooking smth.

Also unrelated but hax is enough to cover any difference in speed, especially a hax like causality hax

Hehehe, no matter who hits first, no matter who reacts first venuzdonoa will always hit you first even if you hit it first.

 

[Georredannea15]

Just like @Vietthai96 say

Basically venuzdonoa dont use all of it ability at once. So it not always it use the causality manipulation for it attack

Doens't Venuz's attacks work passively, affecting the order with the laws and causality?

 

[Dereck03]

Doens't Venuz's attacks work passively, affecting the order with the laws and causality?

It destroy the logic/reason which is not the same as Law and Causality in verse.

 

[Georredannea15]

It destroy the logic/reason which is not the same as Law and Causality in verse.

Logic actually works the same as law and causality, but how do they work differently in the verse? Aren't these actually things that are in the order of the gods?

 

[Dereck03]

Logic actually works the same as law and causality, but how do they work differently in the verse? Aren't these actually things that are in the order of the gods?

Laws and Causality are under the term order in verse, which means laws and concepts and as you know there are lot types of orders in maou, creation, destruction, demise, order of order, chief god order, order of causality and blah, blah, blah, every order governs such aspect that included Law and Concepts based in such aspect. And reason is beyond order itself so yeah. Actually i can't provide enough scans about Reason in verse cos those are from the WN but LN already hinted the Reason in verse.

So order =/= reason.

 

[Georredannea15]

Laws and Causality are under the term order in verse, which means laws and concepts and as you know there are lot types of orders in maou, creation, destruction, demise, order of order, chief god order, order of causality and blah, blah, blah, every order governs such aspect that included Law and Concepts based in such aspect. And reason is beyond order itself so yeah. Actually i can't provide enough scans about Reason in verse cos those are from the WN but LN already hinted the Reason in verse.

So order =/= reason.

Frankly, I already understand the workings of order, but I don't understand exactly what makes logic beyond to "order".

 

[Dereck03]

Frankly, I already understand the workings of order, but I don't understand exactly what makes logic beyond to "order".

Kek. Right now from my memories I have little evidence, first the battle of Anos against Eques, when he destroy Eques' <Beld Rase Femblem>, which induces a predetermined inescapable fate that affects you even if you go back in time before the creation of the world and use your power. Eques used his authority (order) against Anos and the latter destroyed it with MEoCD destroying reason.

This was the wording of the feat.

This magic eye can make events that will certainly happen and/or already happened never happen, by destroying reason and creating a logical contradiction, therefore unilaterally winning. In other words, **as one possible use of this magic eye, Anos can destroy a power after the power already affected him, by destroying the reason of the power and creating a logical contradiction, therefore unilaterally winning, and subsequently nullifying the power's effect as if he was never even affected to begin with; ..."

Another would be graham's nothingness, that when his source was destroyed his source of nothingness appeared (Concept of nothingness), this was said to lack any possible order and when it was destroyed by venuzdonoa what was left was a nothingness without reason/logic.

Another would be the same creation of venuzdonoa.

Venuzdonoa was created by transforming the God of Destruction Aberneyu's divine body and source into the Demon King Castle Delsgade, therefore distorting and disrupting the Order of Destruction, and transforming the God of Destruction's authority, the Sun of Destruction <Sargeldonave>, into a magic in the form of a sword that destroys reason.

Before this Reason Destroying Sword all reason is meaningless. Dimensions and spaces mean nothing to Venuzdonoa, and it reduces all logic to nothing. It's pointless to think about the "what", "how", or "why".

No matter how sturdy, how eternal, or how infinite something is, Venuzdonoa can destroy it - even Reason itself

The order of destruction was already capable of destroying other orders, but it is mentioned that thanks to the MEoCD of Anos it gained the power to destroy reason.

Another would be Sasha's Eyes of Reason Destruction, which are capable of manipulating reason and summoning venuzdonoa.

Anyway, this is only the tip of the iceberg, there are many more proofs that indicate that the reason is beyond order, but I do not have them in hand, because they are not officially translated and they appear when we get to the SS. If not then question me why so much emphasis is placed on the word reason and its use as a total counter and superior to order.

 

[Fixxed]

But then how do you know that the scan shows the speed of Venuzdonoa?

Because it basically just attack not use any hax, how do you know it not speed???

Fragarach reverses causality and time, it attacks before the opponent uses their NP once activated after. I don't see how the sword Venuzdonoa physically moves to the past to attack, and the only thing we can do is make assumptions of the sword.

Yeah it already being stated for use some ability like reverses causality and time, so it hax, in venuzdonoa case it not hax at all, it is pure attack

 

[Fixxed]

Doens't Venuz's attacks work passively, affecting the order with the laws and causality?

It passive but it not use all of it ability at once when it attack, yeah if it use all of it ability at once, the all of creation will get destroy. It just use the ability that needed for defeating the enemy

 

[Dereck03]

It passive but it not use all of it ability at once when it attack, yeah if it use all of it ability at once, the all of creation will get destroy. It just use the ability that needed for defeating the enemy

This is true and funny... Venuz passively destroys what needs to be destroyed to counter the ability used against it.

 

[Georredannea15]

Kek. Right now from my memories I have little evidence, first the battle of Anos against Eques, when he destroy Eques' <Beld Rase Femblem>, which induces a predetermined inescapable fate that affects you even if you go back in time before the creation of the world and use your power. Eques used his authority (order) against Anos and the latter destroyed it with MEoCD destroying reason.

This was the wording of the feat.

Another would be graham's nothingness, that when his source was destroyed his source of nothingness appeared (Concept of nothingness), this was said to lack any possible order and when it was destroyed by venuzdonoa what was left was a nothingness without reason/logic.

Another would be the same creation of venuzdonoa.



The order of destruction was already capable of destroying other orders, but it is mentioned that thanks to the MEoCD of Anos it gained the power to destroy reason.

Another would be Sasha's Eyes of Reason Destruction, which are capable of manipulating reason and summoning venuzdonoa.

Anyway, this is only the tip of the iceberg, there are many more proofs that indicate that the reason is beyond order, but I do not have them in hand, because they are not officially translated and they appear when we get to the SS. If not then question me why so much emphasis is placed on the word reason and its use as a total counter and superior to order.

I'm back a little late because I was playing LoL and i'm so tilting, ahhh... sorry.

Anyway, coming to the point, there's no point in discussing this in detail, but if I were to add my own interpretation... It's more like it's not a "superiority", it's more like that's the basis of it all. If I were to liken it to something, I think it looks like a situation where the order is, in fact, circling around in a logic/reason

That is, everything that occurs in order and order develops within a logic, and if you destroy the logic within which they occur, you also destroye the order and events within that framework of logic. Or if you are not affected by the order and things within the order, you are not affected by the logic within which they occur.

This is my interpretation, it could be wrong. But that's not the discussion right now.

 

[Dereck03]

I'm back a little late because I was playing LoL and i'm so tilting, ahhh... sorry.

Anyway, coming to the point, there's no point in discussing this in detail, but if I were to add my own interpretation... It's more like it's not a "superiority", it's more like that's the basis of it all. If I were to liken it to something, I think it looks like a situation where the order is, in fact, circling around in a logic/reason

That is, everything that occurs in order and order develops within a logic, and if you destroy the logic within which they occur, you also destroye the order and events within that framework of logic. Or if you are not affected by the order and things within the order, you are not affected by the logic within which they occur.

This is my interpretation, it could be wrong. But that's not the discussion right now.

Sure, but the thing here is, whatever happens to the order doesn't affect the logic, they are unlinked and the logic is superior in context, but still, I just wanted to explain what was the reason for what I remembered, I respect your opinion btw.