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Marvel's lucifer and Ghost Rider revision

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Hi,this is my first thread and wanted to make a revision of lucifer from marvel comics and also the cosmology in Aaron's run of Ghost rider(vicious cycle)
here his profile:
one of the main issues that I have with the profile is that it says that murdok kurios is lucifer,however this isn't true:
Defenders v1 issue 111:murdok directly says that he is born out of mankind's collective unconscious and that he isn't lucifer,he is just humanity's view of that being

to further add onto this,we know that both of them have their own separated page in the Marvel Zombies: The Book of Angels, Demons & Various Monstrosities
It should be noted that lucifer should scale to the house of ideas(here again its profile)
why this?
In Ghost Rider's event "War For Heaven",we saw a huge amount of consistency for Heaven being the house of ideas and this is also thanks to later comics:
Ghost Rider v6 Vicious Cycle 21:Zadkiel is called a being of the “Ineffable Sefiroth”
021_004.jpg

for those who don’t know what Sefiroth is,lemme quote this:
“What is the Kabbalah Tree of Life?
The Tree of Life is the primary mystical symbol of Kabbalah. It is the structure of the 10 Sefirot (or Sephirot), arranged in 3 pillars. Each Sefirah (singular for Sefirot) can be described as a type of spiritual light, and as the revelation of an aspect of the Creator. The Sephirot contain the governmental laws for all creation, meaning that everything that was, is, and will be, comes forth through them

1

. The Kabbalah Tree of Life has been called ‘an archetype scheme which is the divine model for the Universe and for Man’

2

.

The Tree of Life of the 10 Sephirot stretches from the Divine nature of the Creator (referred to as Eyn Sof, אין סוף without end), which is above or beyond the Sefirot, and physical existence, which is below the Sephirot and comes forth from them.

The Sephirot

Definition: The 10 Sephirot can be considered in a way as spiritual lights and as as revealed aspects of God, containing spiritual laws which govern and bring forth all of Creation. They link what is above them – the infinite and ungraspable nature of the Creator – with what is below them, the finite physical creation.”
this is also portrayed in Ghost Rider:Kushala Infinity Comic
in the series,we went to know about Qaballah and how it works before immortal hulk came out
(basically there are 2 Qaballahs but I will cover that later)

to further add onto this,when the Phoenix threatened Loki,she would have "pruned him from the tree"(defenders:beyond issue 3)
Defenders%2B-%2BBeyond%2B003%2B%25282022%2529%2B%2528Digital%2529%2B%2528Zone-Empire%2529-006.jpg

this because Defenders Beyond and Immortal Hulk(both written by Al Ewing),expand the concept of qaballah to marvel cosmology
And also In Immortal Hulk,Even Thor implies that Hulk is the opposite of the Tree Of Life

Immortal Hulk Issue 47: ”I know what you are,Hulk! You are the hidden blight behind the world tree! You are the untamed storm that tears the longhouse asunder! You are the darkness of midgard made flesh”
Immortal%2BHulk%2B047%2B%25282021%2529%2B%2528GreenGiant-DCP%2529-010.jpg

of course,there is more
in Defenders Beyond,the last page of the 5th issue says that the house of ideas was the heaven seen in fantastic four issue 511
Defenders%2B-%2BBeyond%2B005%2B%25282023%2529%2B%2528Digital%2529%2B%2528Zone-Empire%2529-021.jpg

here some scans for reference

in the 2nd one,it is stated that human brain cannot fully grasp things on that level,despite Reed was able to comprehend the negative zone which have high 1B and higher stuffs
stuffs such as infinite higher dimensions:
infinite realities and dimensions
in the superflow which is within the negative zone,there is the realm of the in-betweener which is between all conceptual dualities,including time and space

and lucifer was native of this realm so he would scale that high
turning to the post,the fact that said plane is beyond what they can comprehend is just consistent with the statement of zadkiel("He of the ineffable sefirot")
Ineffable means something beyond comprehension,that words cannot explain

The house of ideas is keter

while the below place is thaumiel

Immortal Hulk issue 11:”In Qabalah,The Highest point on the Tree Of Life is called Keter. The Crown Above All Things. It is compassion beyond comprehension. The unity of divine. But on the opposite side is Thaumiel.” and “I am no scholar but if Qlippoth is a reflection,then perhaps this shadow-sphere is the lowest point. Below All. A Hell beneath all others.”

this means that the sefiroth referred to in Ghost Rider War For Heaven is the House of Ideas as it is consistent with fantastic four,defenders beyond and immortal hulk

lucifer also scales to zadkiel as he tortured him in hell

this is confirmed in

Fear Itself: Fellowship Of Fear


Also Ghost Rider in that run was directly stated to be a threat to all known realms to Strange

Strange at this point also went more than once in Eternity's realm which is implied to be beyond eternity like Eternity is to everything below


also this takes place after defenders v3 where strange showed his knowledge about the multiverse

even ignoring this,Zadkiel went on to say that while God is all powerful,his creations aren't and that Ghost Riders can take down the entire afterlife,Heaven included

so this was pretty much my revision about the 2 pages,they should have also low 1A ap,durability etc.... since they come from a realm beyond the negative zone at least and also 1A as they scale to the house of ideas
 
Hi,this is my first thread and wanted to make a revision of lucifer from marvel comics and also the cosmology in Aaron's run of Ghost rider(vicious cycle)
here his profile:
one of the main issues that I have with the profile is that it says that murdok kurios is lucifer,however this isn't true:
Defenders v1 issue 111:murdok directly says that he is born out of mankind's collective unconscious and that he isn't lucifer,he is just humanity's view of that being
That stuff has been retconned to hell (ha) and back, Mephisto and the others are never treated as avatars of Marduk/Lucifer/What have you, it's just not something that's true nowadays. In more recent times he has indeed claimed to be the Lucifer cast down from heaven and all that jazz and was even confirmed by an archangel.

That said I should specify, I never claimed Marduk = the "real" Lucifer, just that he's the guy running around claiming to be him in GR vol 6 (and by consequence all/most of GR's stuff, I guess). Notably, in early GR/Hellstrom stuff the guy who turned Johnny into Ghost Rider was explicitly the same as Hellstrom's father, granted GR's gone through so many retcons I can't really claim to have any clue about him, but it's not a one-off thing. This person here brings up more examples as to why they're likely the same being.

I can't really say why they're treated as different by Marvel Database, but the fact that Lucifer's page mentions a "quasi-paternal" relationship with Daimon and Satana... yeah actually I have no clue what that means but I think it does go to show that whoever wrote that page doesn't really know what they're talking about, since if you say that this guy isn't Marduk then they have just never met.

I don't really have any opinions on the cosmology bit. Granted, this would probably scale to a lot of people.
 
disagree on scaling to the house of ideas. The stuff about the kabalah applying to the multiverse is only recently and the ghost rider stuff is different.
 
That stuff has been retconned to hell (ha) and back, Mephisto and the others are never treated as avatars of Marduk/Lucifer/What have you, it's just not something that's true nowadays. In more recent times he has indeed claimed to be the Lucifer cast down from heaven and all that jazz and was even confirmed by an archangel.
will read that comic and then tell you my thoughts
That said I should specify, I never claimed Marduk = the "real" Lucifer, just that he's the guy running around claiming to be him in GR vol 6 (and by consequence all/most of GR's stuff, I guess).
in vol 6,we saw that he was not murdok and also in the marvel zombies guidebook it is shown too
Notably, in early GR/Hellstrom stuff the guy who turned Johnny into Ghost Rider was explicitly the same as Hellstrom's father, granted GR's gone through so many retcons I can't really claim to have any clue about him, but it's not a one-off thing. This person here brings up more examples as to why they're likely the same being.
why we use marvel database in the first place? Honestly that isn't reliable,also marvel.com too have 2 different pages for them and those who bonded Johnny with Zarathos have changed a lot of times,mephisto was one of them too,so mephisto is murdok too?
I don't really have any opinions on the cosmology bit. Granted, this would probably scale to a lot of people.
k
 
disagree on scaling to the house of ideas. The stuff about the kabalah applying to the multiverse is only recently and the ghost rider stuff is different.
I don't see why it should be different,Ewing brought back things like the phoenix being tipharet
 
This post seems to make an attempt to connect Ewing's work to older comics from decades back without any correlation to the newer lore except of course the random mentions of Jewish mysticism. Ewing has extensively expanded on Jewish mysticism in Marvel Comics, surpassing previous authors in this regard by a pretty big margin.

This should be a similar case to DCs split stuff.
 
This post seems to make an attempt to connect Ewing's work to older comics from decades back without any correlation to the newer lore except of course the random mentions of Jewish mysticism. Ewing has extensively expanded on Jewish mysticism in Marvel Comics, surpassing previous authors in this regard by a pretty big margin.
I mean,so the fantastic four didn't take place? Like,do I have to take other examples of such stuffs happening in old comics and being brought back by ewing? The jewish stuffs are not random
 
Elaborate.
the spirit of vengeance comic you sent was from 2018,pretty sure that up till 2006 when gr came out,the defenders statement was valid and also it can just be murdok having lucifer's memories since he was born out of that
We generally don't consider guidebooks super reliable.
I honestly don't see any issue with that since that wasn't contradicted back then,like sure,there are guidebooks like the one saying that oblivion is inside creation,that aren't that reliable but till it isn't contradicted,I don't see any issue
We don't, I'm just bringing up that one singular user's argument, which I find agreeable.
in chaos war:Chaos King,satan was not even close to lucifer in appearence,wolverine comic just gives him a name,just bc 2 go by the same name,doesn't mean they are the same,both Thor and Jane go by the name of the mighty thor but they are not the same person
 
the spirit of vengeance comic you sent was from 2018,pretty sure that up till 2006 when gr came out,the defenders statement was valid and also it can just be murdok having lucifer's memories since he was born out of that
Nah, Mephisto being an avatar is literally never done anywhere else, it's just not a thing.
I honestly don't see any issue with that since that wasn't contradicted back then,like sure,there are guidebooks like the one saying that oblivion is inside creation,that aren't that reliable but till it isn't contradicted,I don't see any issue
No, we just don't use them as anything but support.
in chaos war:Chaos King,satan was not even close to lucifer in appearence,
?
wolverine comic just gives him a name,just bc 2 go by the same name,doesn't mean they are the same,both Thor and Jane go by the name of the mighty thor but they are not the same person
Jane got the title from Thor, same way Miles did "Spider-Man" from Peter and such. Nothing of the sort happened between Marduk and this other allegedly different being that somehow just happens to go by the same name. You don't see a guy with the same, very uncommon name in two different comics and say "oh no it's two different guys", that's just not how it works.
 
just to understand the point
5_27.jpg

chaos war satan
001_018.jpg

gr v6 lucifer
RCO050.jpg

satan reminds me more of this belasco from the end of gr v3,he just have more horns
 
Nah, Mephisto being an avatar is literally never done anywhere else, it's just not a thing.
in defenders,mephisto was outright an avatar of murdok
No, we just don't use them as anything but support.
ok so I can use them to support my point
check the above message
Jane got the title from Thor, same way Miles did "Spider-Man" from Peter and such. Nothing of the sort happened between Marduk and this other allegedly different being that somehow just happens to go by the same name. You don't see a guy with the same, very uncommon name in two different comics and say "oh no it's two different guys", that's just not how it works.
murdok did get the title from the lucifer which he was just mankind's view of him,btw,when I have time, I will just check that comic
 
in defenders,mephisto was outright an avatar of murdok
... yes, I am aware, that's what we've been talking about, and i'm saying that that was retconned immediately afterwards
ok so I can use them to support my point
Sure, and I'm telling you that that doesn't hold up because whoever wrote that clearly had no clue/didn't give a shit about the characters.
check the above message
Eh, fair, he shapeshifts constantly anyways.
murdok did get the title from the lucifer which he was just mankind's view of him
No he didn't? He specifically got "Marduk Kurios" from the Sumerian people, it's his backstory. In fact, they specifically state that it is his true, definitive name. There is only one guy called Marduk Kurios out there, and it's him.
 
... yes, I am aware, that's what we've been talking about, and i'm saying that that was retconned immediately afterwards
not immediately
Sure, and I'm telling you that that doesn't hold up because whoever wrote that clearly had no clue/didn't give a shit about the characters.
fair but idk if this would be the case
Eh, fair, he shapeshifts constantly anyways.
mostly he shifts between the forms he used as satan and the 3 headed monster
No he didn't? He specifically got "Marduk Kurios" from the Sumerian people, it's his backstory. In fact, they specifically state that it is his true, definitive name. There is only one guy called Marduk Kurios out there, and it's him.
in the same run,it's stated that murdok and hell are reflections of the collective unconscious so idk if it helps you that much as it just comes down to the defender part again
 
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not immediately
It has literally never been used since that one run, as far as I know. Writers like Mephisto a lot, they wouldn't let him just be some avatar of some guy they don't care about.
fair but idk if this would be the case
They literally say both Satan and Marduk are Daimon's fathers so definitely.
mostly he shifts between the forms he used as satan and the 3 headed monster
No, definitely not, there's a fuckton, he's been a quadrupedal beast, a human and a guy made out of fire just off the top of my head.
in the same run,it's stated that murdok and hell are reflections of the collective unconscious so idk if it helps you that much as it just comes down to the defender part again
This doesn't mean anything, even if the demons are born of the collective unconscious that doesn't mean they don't each have their individual personalities and backstories.
 
It has literally never been used since that one run, as far as I know. Writers like Mephisto a lot, they wouldn't let him just be some avatar of some guy they don't care about.
No? Again, hellstorm prince of lies says he is from the collective unconscious
They literally say both Satan and Marduk are Daimon's fathers so definitely.
lucifer haven't been called satan though and satan is the name of marduk
No, definitely not, there's a fuckton, he's been a quadrupedal beast, a human and a guy made out of fire just off the top of my head.
Yeah and those are the guys I referred to, I said the satan forms
This doesn't mean anything, even if the demons are born of the collective unconscious that doesn't mean they don't each have their individual personalities and backstories.
Never said they don't, just that he isn't lucifer as he said in defenders
 
No? Again, hellstorm prince of lies says he is from the collective unconscious
I'm referring to the "Mephisto and the other Hell Lords are all just avatars of Lucifer/Satan/Marduk/What have you" bit. The collective unconscious part in itself can be true or untrue, I don't really care.
lucifer haven't been called satan though and satan is the name of marduk
Marduk has definitely used the name "Lucifer".
Yeah and those are the guys I referred to, I said the satan forms
Then you're wrong anyways because again, he has a fuckton of forms, he's a goat dude here for example, he changes appearance constantly.
Never said they don't, just that he isn't lucifer as he said in defenders
The Defenders shit is retconned as hell, he's claimed to be that Lucifer in Spirits of Vengeance, had absolutely no reason to lie there, and an archangel even goes and agrees that yep Daimon's father's the one who's been doing the whole hell vs heaven thing.
 
I'm referring to the "Mephisto and the other Hell Lords are all just avatars of Lucifer/Satan/Marduk/What have you" bit. The collective unconscious part in itself can be true or untrue, I don't really care.
well,till it is retconned,mephisto being an avatar of marduk seems fine
imo it might be him going by the memories he have by default of him being humanity's view of lucifer
Then you're wrong anyways because again, he has a fuckton of forms, he's a goat dude here for example, he changes appearance constantly.
I don't think you got my point but whatever
The Defenders shit is retconned as hell, he's claimed to be that Lucifer in Spirits of Vengeance, had absolutely no reason to lie there, and an archangel even goes and agrees that yep Daimon's father's the one who's been doing the whole hell vs heaven thing.
mh,honestly could be the fake heaven inside creation(that of yaweh) in that case
 
Armorchompy seems to make sense here.
I agree with you because if this revision is accepted, there will probably be another revision after this, and this time we will have to scale characters like ghost rider and lucifer to tier 1, but they are not tier 1
 
I agree with you because if this revision is accepted, there will probably be another revision after this, and this time we will have to scale characters like ghost rider and lucifer to tier 1, but they are not tier 1
Armochompy thus far went only against stuffs about lucifer and marduk being different, not the scaling stuffs, why they are not tier 1 if the evidence is there?
 
Armochompy thus far went only against stuffs about lucifer and marduk being different, not the scaling stuffs, why they are not tier 1 if the evidence is there?
old cosmologies, more precisely, you are connecting the previous nonsense of the authors to al ewing cosmology in the right way, but this is wrong, and trying to raise some characters to tier 1 by going this way will create inconsistency and affect other issues.
 
On the other hand, lucifer morningstar in marvel does not have the feat to enter tier 1, it will not be appropriate to upgrade to tier 1 due to that inconsistent scale.
 
old cosmologies
This in itself is nonsense, it wasn't retconned
more precisely, you are connecting the previous nonsense of the authors to al ewing cosmology in the right way, but this is wrong
Saying:"it is wrong" isn't really addressing anything, also Ewing did mention those old stuffs like he did with the Phoenix being tipharet and ff comic
and trying to raise some characters to tier 1 by going this way will create inconsistency and affect other issues.
Which are said inconsistencies?
 
On the other hand, lucifer morningstar in marvel does not have the feat to enter tier 1, it will not be appropriate to upgrade to tier 1 due to that inconsistent scale.
How is him existing on a plane beyond those which man can comprehend(thus the negative zone too) inconsistent?
 
How is him existing on a plane beyond those which man can comprehend(thus the negative zone too) inconsistent?
I call it non-physical interaction, on the other hand, there's the "author bullshit" problem that you don't understand yet, even if lucifer showed something that could go into tier 1
 
I call it non-physical interaction, on the other hand, there's the "author bullshit" problem that you don't understand yet, even if lucifer showed something that could go into tier 1
There is a problem though:Human Torch outright said that they could not comprehend such beings, 2:I asked you which are these "author bullshit" or inconsistencies?
 
There is a problem though:Human Torch outright said that they could not comprehend such beings, 2:I asked you which are these "author bullshit" or inconsistencies?
both of them, and the promise you make now is not enough in this situation.
 
Explaining why they are inconsistencies is so hard? Like, lucifer scale consistently to that plane
certain lucifer, whose inconsistencies you already know, doesn't get a tier because it's on that plane because it has anti feat
 
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