Shield Hero (WN) Concept Manip clarification

[YungManzi]

I see. Thanks for the eval.


I don't see where it's stated to be because of concepts at all.
The "While she was supposed to be erased from the Laws of the World, the power she left behind made her remain in everyone’s memories." only states that the power she left behind makes people remember. It doesn't state in any capacity that it's because of conceptual effects.


The opposite isn't stated either and it makes lots of sense that people that never existed wouldn't be remembered.

In fact, in context it's most likely that it is in fact due to them never existing. Look at the following lines:


Why does Naofumi think he and the legends of the four heroes would disappear? Because the whole heroes thing would have never happened if Medea never existed.

I may be mistaken, I’ll have to look over my notes when I get home

 

[YungManzi]

Are you really thinking the guy that can deflect her conceptual attacks would have forgotten her due to the acausal powers? Like, c'mon, either it makes no sense regardless of interpretation or the gods were not included in the everyone would forget thing.

And (as I edited into my last comment) what is said heavily implies that it's due to causality stuff.

I’m saying he’d forget her because her concept wouldn’t exist, and he has acausality so it wouldn’t be because of time stuff.

of course, by “everyone” Naofumk could also not be talking about himself and Raphtalia.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I’m saying he’d forget her because her concept wouldn’t exist, and he has acausality so it wouldn’t be because of time stuff.

of course, by “everyone” Naofumk could also not be talking about himself and Raphtalia.

Yeah, but like, if Naofumi and Raphtalia are not included then all Acausal characters are included. So it would make perfect sense to have it been due to causality. Which makes more sense given the whole "the legend of heroes would vanish"-thing. That wouldn't happen if just Medea's concept disappears.

 

[YungManzi]

Yeah, but like, if Naofumi and Raphtalia are not included then all Acausal characters are included. So it would make perfect sense to have it been due to causality. Which makes more sense given the whole "the legend of heroes would vanish"-thing. That wouldn't happen if just Medea's concept disappears.

Admittedly some of what I’m saying also comes from looking at the raws which I’ll bring up more later (I planned on making this a whole CRT of its own lol)

 

[DontTalkDT]

So you mean more speculation based on uncertain machine translations. I'm sure that will resolve the issue of uncertainty of your interpretation.

 

[YungManzi]

So you mean more speculation based on uncertain machine translations. I'm sure that will resolve the issue of uncertainty of your interpretation.

Lol. True. But some of them I got translated by our members. Like this one:

“A thread...that carries death. A concept that destroys all possibilities.

Hundreds, thousands, millions of threads...all were bundled together in untold amounts.

Past, present, future, parallel worlds, branching worlds, principle of causality, all were concepts that would be taken away.”

You’d argue that’s just Naofumi saying that in relation to him, but I got more on this later.

 

[DontTalkDT]

A line which can be interpreted in exactly the way the actual translation of the guy that had the full context translates it.

Like, generally speaking, alternate translations are useful for showing how certain arguments might not apply, but unless you can proof the actual translation straight up wrong, they are pretty bad at making whole new arguments, due to the inherent uncertainty.

 

[YungManzi]

A line which can be interpreted in exactly the way the actual translation of the guy that had the full context translates it.

Like, generally speaking, alternate translations are useful for showing how certain arguments might not apply, but unless you can proof the actual translation straight up wrong, they are pretty bad at making whole new arguments, due to the inherent uncertainty.

The person translating having more context doesn’t make it a more correct translation. Heck, there are times where we even take fan translations over official ones.

 

[YungManzi]

They also translated the entire first showing of infinity destroyer. I just gave an exert here.

Edit:

If we were going to dive into the raws for anything it would be for this confusing power lol

 

[DontTalkDT]

The person translating having more context doesn’t make it a more correct translation. Heck, there are times where we even take fan translations over official ones.

The person having more context can use the context to decide which of several possible translations is more likely.
I don't know if, for instance, something along he lines of "Past, present, future, parallel worlds, branching worlds, the law of cause and effect, the concept of taking everything away." isn't also a valid translation.
There's a difference between being able to translate something a certain way and that being the only valid translation.

When we use fan translation over official ones it's usually for low ends or debunking that a statement certainly says one hing. Or very rarely where we truly can see they're wrong.


In any case, as said, even if translated as you claim the quote you bring doesn't really support your argument. Unless you wish to argue that causality and parallel worlds are literal concepts (which they're clearly not so let's not even start on that), it's not talking about destroying concepts in our sense here. The statement just means that those principles (i.e. concepts) are taken away from Naofumi i.e. he can't rely on those things.

If we were going to dive into the raws for anything it would be for this confusing power lol

It's really quite a straight forward power. It only gets confusing if one tries to interpret more into it than it is. Like, taken as a power that erases things through time and all parallel versions of things, by materializing the concept of death of them and then is boosted further to erase laws and causality, it explains all demonstrated effects and is in line with all statements.

Only if you then start reinterpreting statements into making it more than that, we have to try thinking about stuff like how literal the use of some word is.

 

[YungManzi]

Well, showing the whole translation would make that apparent give me like 2 hours

 

[YungManzi]

Actually I'll just make thread on this later like I originally planned on. It's taking a while to go through all these different translations.

Unless you wish to argue that causality and parallel worlds are literal concepts (which they're clearly not so let's not even start on that), it's not talking about destroying concepts in our sense here. The statement just means that those principles (i.e. concepts) are taken away from Naofumi i.e. he can't rely on those things.

I will indeed say causality is a concept, because both translations make a clear distinction between when they're talking about erasing a person/their alternate versions and erasing the law/causality of the world.
There's also stuff like Raphtalia using conceptual attacks, Naofumi having some conceptual manipulation, ect. look forward to it

But aside from that DT, what do you think about my earlier suggestion that she has conceptual weapon stealing as well as death manipulation?

「Perfect Slave」


Starting with me, she used a power that selected Heroes at random, and stole their weapons and spirits while killing their owners. A Conceptual attack.

Starting with me, the hero is randomly selected, and the concept of killing the owner while stealing the holy weapon and spirit is poured into it.~Alternate translation.

 

[Vietthai96]

I skim through the thread, it is type 3, however i could have miss many things. Can someone summarise all the arguments on why the CM is type 2??

 

[YungManzi]

I skim through the thread, it is type 3, however i could have miss many things. Can someone summarise all the arguments on why the CM is type 2??

1) Conceptual attacks can erase universal laws

2) Conceptual attacks can erase people

3) Things/people erased by conceptual attacks cannot be remembered

“A thread...that carries death. A concept that destroys all possibilities.

Hundreds, thousands, millions of threads...all were bundled together in untold amounts.

Past, present, future, parallel worlds, branching worlds, principle of causality, all were concepts that would be taken away.”

^Also this statement. In-context the statement means something a little different... but... This basically sums up my arguments.

 

[Vietthai96]

1) Conceptual attacks can erase universal laws

2) Conceptual attacks can erase people

3) Things/people erased by conceptual attacks cannot be remembered

2 and 3 pretty much meaningless which just lead back to type 3. However type 2 is possible via point 1, however we need a bit more contexts regarding point 1

“A thread...that carries death. A concept that destroys all possibilities.

Hundreds, thousands, millions of threads...all were bundled together in untold amounts.

Past, present, future, parallel worlds, branching worlds, principle of causality, all were concepts that would be taken away.”

Hmm, tbh this is hard, however from the look of it, type 2 is fine, unless there is more contexts to this

 

[DontTalkDT]

Got interrupted by exam crunch time and a bad cold. Time to get back to this.

Actually I'll just make thread on this later like I originally planned on. It's taking a while to go through all these different translations.

Well, that makes it easier. I will just apply type 3 for the time being then.

But aside from that DT, what do you think about my earlier suggestion that she has conceptual weapon stealing as well as death manipulation?

That seems ok... and is already on the profile?

Hmm, tbh this is hard, however from the look of it, type 2 is fine, unless there is more contexts to this

The context you are missing is that, completely independent of being conceptual, Medea's attacks erase people throughout all of time and also erase all versions of them in all parallel and non-parallel universes. When the quote says those concepts are taken away, Medea isn't literally stealing concepts. It's just a flavourful description of those effects.

 

[YungManzi]

That seems ok... and is already on the profile?

The ability is on the profile but we never really consider the weapon control ability conceptual in the same way as ID or the death ability is (At least in vs battles), which we should, and which was my point.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The ability is on the profile but we never really consider the weapon control ability conceptual in the same way as ID or the death ability is (At least in vs battles), which we should, and which was my point.

I mean, the profile says

Perfect Slave: A spell and a conceptual attack that selects heroes at random, steals their weapons and the spirits in their weapons and kills the heroes.

I'm not quite sure what else should be on the profile in that regard.

 

[Vietthai96]

The context you are missing is that, completely independent of being conceptual, Medea's attacks erase people throughout all of time and also erase all versions of them in all parallel and non-parallel universes. When the quote says those concepts are taken away, Medea isn't literally stealing concepts. It's just a flavourful description of those effects

I mean, the what Manzi show is conceptual attacks that erase universal law, from the look of it, it can be type 2. But anyway, you are right

Anyway, so......there is something wrong with translation???

 

[YungManzi]

I mean, the profile says

I'm not quite sure what else should be on the profile in that regard.

I'm not saying the profile should be changed. It's fine.

 

[YungManzi]

I mean, the what Manzi show is conceptual attacks that erase universal law, from the look of it, it can be type 2. But anyway, you are right

Anyway, so......there is something wrong with translation???

Possibly type 2?

 

[Vietthai96]

Possibly type 2?

Depend on contexts, if the conceptual attacks can truly erased law that govern on universal scale, it can type 2, but if is not then just type 3

 

[DontTalkDT]

I mean, the what Manzi show is conceptual attacks that erase universal law, from the look of it, it can be type 2. But anyway, you are right

Problem is, it's not clear whether conceptual attack erased the laws due to laws being more fundamental or if Medea just added law erasure to the attack separately. She can also do conceptual attacks that do not erase the laws.

Anyway, so......there is something wrong with translation???

It's probably one valid way to translate it. It's not necessarily the only or best way to translate it, though.
What I learned from the two (or was it three?) times I translated something from German for vsbattles is how easy even an accurate translation can lose implicit meaning.
So all I'm saying is that we shouldn't easily disregard the original translation from the guy who knew the whole context surrounding the scenes.