Which Superman(/men) is this?

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Superman is the overvoid yes

If you really deep it, Superman is the story of DC that the metaverse revolves around. The Overvoid is the paper all things are written and drawn on. Therefore, we can conclude Supes = The Story = Overvoid ez gg.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Superman is beyond it, even qualitatively superior to it.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I guess this became a circling argument. Literally

For quite a while, yeh

 

[Deagonx]

All of DotNG and Countdown which are Final Crisis tie ins depict The Source as knowing what creation is and having taken part in making it.

They also depict each universe as being separated by their own source wall, there being only 52 Monitors, the Monitors being born from Anti Monitor dead body,, and them being street tier fighters.

Saying something contradicts Countdown or DotNG isn't a mark against it. At all.

Additionally the entire existence of the New Gods and even Takion, which we see in both Final Crisis and Multiversity proves Kirby’s Source was never retconned because if Kirby’s Source was retconned the New Gods wouldn’t even exists.

Yet it was, and the New Gods still exist. Crazy how that works.

I’ve literally said on multiple occasions throughout this thread that my argument was not because the scan just says perfect nothingness.

Good job. Now heres what I said:

Your argument is to equate unlike terms based on surface level similarities, and suggest that these similarities must represent an identical character.

 

[Xearesay]

Saying something contradicts Countdown or DotNG isn't a mark against it. At all.

I’ll agree to the Countdown stuff. However the DotNG stuff shouldn’t be viewed the same way as Soulfire Darkseid who matched the composite Source, is shown by Morrison during DC Universe #0.

Yet it was, and the New Gods still exist. Crazy how that works.

Lol so the New Gods who were directly created by The Source, exist, but The Source just doesn’t know about them? Is that really what you’re suggesting right now?

Also you ignored how Grants author statements which you posted mention the Overvoid being the same as “Kirby’s Source.”

Good job. Now heres what I said:

Your argument is to equate unlike terms based on surface level similarities, and suggest that these similarities must represent an identical character.

This is stonewalling as you’re not interacting with my response and just repeating your original claim. I posted proof via quoting my own previous comment within this thread that my argument wasn’t based off the Doom Patrol scan just saying “perfect nothingness.” So I will ask you politely to please address the evidence I posted.

 

[Xearesay]

I guess this became a circling argument. Literally

Yeah. I mean he’s blatantly stonewalling by not addressing my responses. Anyone reading the thread can see I clarified that my argument about the Overvoid representing the perfect nothingness reality was created like a stain in, was not solely due to the usage of the words “perfect nothingness.”

 

[Deagonx]

I’ll agree to the Countdown stuff. However the DotNG stuff shouldn’t be viewed the same way

Numerous aspects of DotNG are also contradicted and Grant regards them the same way. The fact that the Multiversity Map retcons something in DotNG is not an argument

This is stonewalling as you’re not interacting with my response and just repeating your original claim

I repeated myself because you did. You ignored my full comment to repeat that "it wasn't just based on the perfect nothingness comment" but my objection did not claim that.

No one is stonewalling you. If you repeat an argument I already responded to, I'm just going to repeat my response.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I don't think he is stonewalling by any chance. He is reasonable as well from his own side.

 

[Deagonx]

Your argument is to equate unlike terms based on surface level similarities, and suggest that these similarities must represent an identical character. A stain is not a flaw. And even if Grant wrote something that resembled some small details about the Overvoid, that doesn't mean it was the Overvoid, the same way writing about a flying guy in a cape isn't necessarily Superman, because Superman is also Kryptonian, named Clark Kent, et cetera

This was my argument. You responded to this by repeating that the "perfect nothingness" comment wasn't the sole basis, but I didn't even mention the perfect nothingness here. I actually mentioned the "stain" which you are saying is the "flaw." Then I explained that the premise of the argument is wrong regardless of which specific commonality is being referred to, and gave an example. You didn't address that argument either.

So I repeated myself, because you repeatedly saying "it wasn't just the perfect nothingness comment" doesn't address any of what I said, and ignores the fact that I mentioned the other similarity directly.

Instead of addressing my argument, you pretended that I ignored what you said, and now you play the victim and pretend that you're being stonewalled, when the reality is you've stonewalled me 4 posts in a row by pretending I'm relying on a strawman argument that I'm not making. Two surface level similarities does not an identical character make.

Shazam and Superman have more in common than this "perfect nothingness" and the Overvoid, but I'd never be silly enough to say they're the same person.

 

[Xearesay]

Numerous aspects of DotNG are also contradicted and Grant regards them the same way. The fact that the Multiversity Map retcons something in DotNG is not an argument

The Soulfire Darkseid thing was never contradicted by Morrison’s work. Morrison even referenced it in DC Universe #0. Also you didn’t respond to my question about the New Gods thing so I will repeat it.

Lol so the New Gods who were directly created by The Source, exist, but The Source just doesn’t know about them? Is that really what you’re suggesting right now?

Additionally you ignored how Grants author statements which you posted mention the Overvoid being the same as “Kirby’s Source.” Meaning your own evidence literally contradicts what you’re saying.

I repeated myself because you did. You ignored my full comment to repeat that "it wasn't just based on the perfect nothingness comment" but my objection did not claim that.

No one is stonewalling you. If you repeat an argument I already responded to, I'm just going to repeat my response.

I’m not even going to try and get into the whole specifics of this nonsense as it would be a waste of time. However, I do have a question. Do you or do you not think that the Overvoid represents the perfect void reality was created inside of?

 

[Deagonx]

The Soulfire Darkseid thing was never contradicted by Morrison’s work

Sure it was. Darkseid never fought the Overvoid.

Lol so the New Gods who were directly created by The Source, exist, but The Source just doesn’t know about them? Is that really what you’re suggesting right now?

Why are you making it sound like this is my idea when Grant blatantly says it multiple times? And wrote it on the map?

I’m not even going to try and get into the whole specifics of this nonsense as it would be a waste of time.

Aka you were blatantly wrong and won't admit it.

Do you or do you not think that the Overvoid represents the perfect void reality was created inside of?

I think that according to the Multiversity Map, the Overvoid is the Source, and you've been performing mental gymnastics to avoid this for days. It doesn't matter what so 33 year old Doom Patrol scan says. The Overvoid was not written until 2009. Even of all of your false equivalenced were true, all we'd have is a concept which bears some resemblance to another concept. That doesn't make them identical.

 

[Xearesay]

Sure it was. Darkseid never fought the Overvoid.

You’re right, Darkseid never fought the Overvoid, he fought the Source who was visually presented as not the Overvoid during the issue.

Why are you making it sound like this is my idea when Grant blatantly says it multiple times? And wrote it on the map?

Grant never said or wrote on the map, “The Source made the New Gods and creation but doesn’t know and understand what the New Gods or creation are.” Lol this is just your attempt at trying to avoid engaging with something that clearly contradicts your theory. The Source knows about creation, understands what it is, and took part in making it. The Overvoid didn’t know about creation, doesn’t understand what it is, and took no part in making it. Making them clearly different characters and completely incompatible with being the same.

I think that according to the Multiversity Map, the Overvoid is the Source, and you've been performing mental gymnastics to avoid this for days. It doesn't matter what so 33 year old Doom Patrol scan says. The Overvoid was not written until 2009. Even of all of your false equivalenced were true, all we'd have is a concept which bears some resemblance to another concept. That doesn't make them identical.

This doesn’t answer what I asked you. Do you or do you not think that the Overvoid represents the perfect void reality was created inside of? It’s a yes or no question.

 

[Deagonx]

You’re right, Darkseid never fought the Overvoid, he fought the Source who was visually presented as not the Overvoid during the issue.

In Grant's cosmology they're the same thing. See: the map, the draft map, and his various interview statements.

Grant never said or wrote on the map, “The Source made the New Gods and creation but doesn’t know and understand what the New Gods or creation are.”

He didn't need to, he wrote "the Source is the Overvoid."

This doesn’t answer what I asked you

Your question is loaded and I'm not going to entertain it. The map makes it clear that the Source is the white page, just like it said overtly in the draft, just like he said in 3 different interviews.

 

[Xearesay]

In Grant's cosmology they're the same thing. See: the map, the draft map, and his various interview statements.

The map literally listed them separately in the Source Wall section. “Beyond lies Montior Mind, the Source and the unknowable.” We know the series is listing separate things because it mentions the “unknowable” and the Source is very much a known entity.

Also his map sketch is irrelevant due to it not being a finalized product plus contradicting the official one that actually went through editorial, and his interview statements are also irrelevant as the comics clearly contradict them.

He didn't need to, he wrote "the Source is the Overvoid."

No finalized material says “the Source is the Overvoid” and none of this addresses the clear cut contradiction supported by the Source creating the New Gods, knowing what creation is, and taking part in making creation, while the Overvoid didn’t create the New Gods, doesn’t know what creation is, and didn’t take part in making it.

Your question is loaded and I'm not going to entertain it.

How is “Do you think the Overvoid represents the perfect void reality was created in?” a loaded question?

 

[Deagonx]

The map literally listed them separately in the Source Wall section. “Beyond lies Montior Mind, the Source and the unknowable.” We know the series is listing separate things because it mentions the “unknowable” and the Source is very much a known entity.

Nope, that is a single description of the same being. The Monitor was directly called unknowable, and the map itself shows that the white space has two names. "The Source" and "Overvoid."

Further, unknowable does not mean that people can't be aware of its existence. Plenty are aware of Monitor-Mind's existence. Superman literally read about him in a book. So your objection is based on a poor interpretation of both the map and the words being used.

No finalized material says “the Source is the Overvoid”

Wrong. The map equates them directly. The blue orb is Nil. The white space is the Source and Overvoid.

How is “Do you think the Overvoid represents the perfect void reality was created in?” a loaded question?

You are conflating similar but distinct terms and iterations of those terms and trying to impose them upon the question itself.

And once again, having similarities doesn't make them the same thing.

Homelands is America's hero, a flying man in a cape with super strength and heat vision, super hearing, et cetera. He was written in 2006.

By your logic, he's actually the same person as Superman. So you agree Homelander existed since 1938? No? Are you saying Superman doesn't represent a flying man in a cape with super strength, heat vision, and super hearing? Do you realize how absurd that is?

None of these shallow arguments will magically retcon the Overvoid into comics from 20 years before its existence. No amount of you bringing up overtly non-canon comics will change what the map says, what Grant said, and what the draft map blatantly stated. The maps format explicitly names the white space as "the source." Attempting to deny this is identical to denying any other location directly named on the map. It's canon. Get over it.

 

[Xearesay]

Nope, that is a single description of the same being. The Monitor was directly called unknowable, and the map itself shows that the white space has two names. "The Source" and "Overvoid."

Further, unknowable does not mean that people can't be aware of its existence. Plenty are aware of Monitor-Mind's existence. Superman literally read about him in a book. So your objection is based on a poor interpretation of both the map and the words being used.

Unknowable literally means “not able to be known.” So yes it does mean that people cannot be aware of its existence. The Source is a known entity, as the New Gods reference it multiple times throughout Final Crisis, therefore it cannot be a part of what’s unknowable beyond the Source Wall.

Additionally you ignored the part of my comment which establishes the clear cut contradictions being that the Source created the New Gods, knows what creation is, and took part in making creation, while the Overvoid didn’t create the New Gods, doesn’t know what creation is, and didn’t take part in making it.

You are conflating similar but distinct terms and iterations of those terms and trying to impose them upon the question itself.

If you’re referring to me using the word “void” instead of “nothingness” then you’re wasting time. Void and nothingness mean the same thing. I digress, how would me conflating these terms make my question loaded?

 

[Robo432343]

anya solos

 

[ImmortalDread]

If you’re referring to me using the word “void” instead of “nothingness” then you’re wasting time. Void and nothingness mean the same thing. I digress, how would me conflating these terms make my question loaded?

Not unless the verse treats those terms differently, I said they are the same because in English it is the same, but if it is treated differently, then @Deagonx is lowkey right

 

[Vondoom]

In justice league incarnate, Darkness and nothingness are deeper than the Overvoid since it's origin came from the darkness.

 

[Xearesay]

Not unless the verse treats those terms differently, I said they are the same because in English it is the same, but if it is treated differently, then @Deagonx is lowkey right

Yeah but there would need to be some type of valid reason to justify why the possibility that Grant Morrison is treating these terms differently, can exist.

 

[Deagonx]

Unknowable literally means “not able to be known.” So yes it does mean that people cannot be aware of its existence

Known does not mean "aware of existence." People know the Overvoid exists. The scan in which Monitor is called Unknowable is literally a story that Superman and Shazam are reading in Limbo, so this interpretation is nonsensical.

Additionally you ignored the part of my comment which establishes the clear cut contradictions being that the Source created the New Gods, knows what creation is, and took part in making creation, while the Overvoid didn’t create the New Gods, doesn’t know what creation is, and didn’t take part in making it.

Because how the Source used to be characterized is not an argument against what the comic actually says. The same way bringing up what happened in Countdown means nothing to this argument.

If you’re referring to me using the word “void” instead of “nothingness” then you’re wasting time. Void and nothingness mean the same thing. I digress, how would me conflating these terms make my question loaded?

Good job ignoring the rest of my argument. Your premise is inherently flawed. The so-called similarities are facile, and even if they were granted for the sake of argument, the reasoning that flows from it is unsound.

Two things sharing a couple characteristics does not make them identical. An early reference to a "flying man in a cape" isn't Superman just because he fits that barebones description. Superman is also a kryptonian, named Clark, from Kansas, etc.

You will not magically insert the Overvoid into the 80s simply because Grant wrote something which beared a shallow resemblance to it, and even that is being generous to your position. Even if we did all pretend this was the Overvoid, it still would not change what the map says, or his interview statements, or the draft map which explicitly confirms his intent.

There's no feasible avenue for you to deny this. It's just a waste of everyone's time.

 

[Antvasima]

i was asked to close this thread as it has derailed far beyond its original purpose.