JTTW Additions & Changes CRT

[Greatsage13th]

I have read the justifications. Not to mention their relevance, it's Buddhist religious metaphysics. I don't see what more there is to say. The authors of JTTW did not intend to write fiction. When they talk about dharmakaya they were not thinking "so remember, this is the dharmakaya according to us, not the real dharmakay of the IRL religion". They were taking the religious conceptions of their environment and incorporating them into the mythical narrative of Sun Wukong. There is no distinction.

Then go prove that the entire novel is some form of religious text then.

 

[Ellbekarym]

Then go prove that the entire novel is some form of religious text then.

It is trivial. Many, many deities appear. Many, many religious concepts are used. No one is suggesting that the deities are other than the deities actually worshipped. To say that it is not a religious text is to say that the Illiad, the Odyssey and the Mahabaratha are not religious texts.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

It is trivial. Many, many deities appear. Many, many religious concepts are used. No one is suggesting that the deities are other than the deities actually worshipped. To say that it is not a religious text is to say that the Illiad, the Odyssey and the Mahabaratha are not religious texts.

Having religious elements does not make something a religious text. JTTW is obviously a novel before anything, that's a fact accepted by the world not just this wiki. There are plenty of modern-day novels out there based on Taoism Cultivation but we don't call them religious because they heavily derive from it.

 

[Greatsage13th]

It is trivial. Many, many deities appear. Many, many religious concepts are used. No one is suggesting that the deities are other than the deities actually worshipped. To say that it is not a religious text is to say that the Illiad, the Odyssey and the Mahabaratha are not religious texts.

Then I suppose we have to cancel saver, Buddha, Jehovah, the presence, Lucifer, the beast and many others due to their religious references

 

[Ellbekarym]

Having religious elements does not make something a religious text. JTTW is obviously a novel before anything, that's a fact accepted by the world not just this wiki. There are plenty of modern-day novels out there based on Taoism Cultivation but we don't call them religious because they heavily derive from it.

I don't know what you're referring to with modern-day novels, but it's pretty certain that the JTTW authors didn't think of their Buddhist notions as fiction. The difference between a work of fiction and nonfiction lies in the intent of the author writing it, not in the correspondence to reality.

The purpose of not putting religious ideas is not to give hierarchy to real deities. It is to not have to say "Allah is 1-A, but Yhwh is High 1-A, my god is better than yours btw".

Since JTTW contains these elements, there is virtually no difference. To say that buddhahood Wukong is 1-C is to say that IRL Gautama is 1-C.

Then I suppose we have to cancel saver, Buddha, Jehovah, the presence, Lucifer, the beast and many others due to their religious references

You have to look at each case individually. It's not because you call yourself Jehovah that you correspond to a really worshipped Jehovah. The Yhwh of Shin Megami Tensei for example is clearly distinct.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I don't know what you're referring to with modern-day novels, but it's pretty certain that the JTTW authors didn't think of their Buddhist notions as fiction. The difference between a work of fiction and nonfiction lies in the intent of the author writing it, not in the correspondence to reality.

The purpose of not putting religious ideas is not to give hierarchy to real deities. It is to not have to say "Allah is 1-A, but Yhwh is High 1-A, my god is better than yours btw".

Since JTTW contains these elements, there is virtually no difference. To say that buddhahood Wukong is 1-C is to say that IRL Gautama is 1-C.

The author intended that the novel to be neither religious nor non religious.

This never happened on the wiki.

I mean, we never scaled the irl ones we just scale the ones within a certain narrative.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I don't know what you're referring to with modern-day novels, but it's pretty certain that the JTTW authors didn't think of their Buddhist notions as fiction. The difference between a work of fiction and nonfiction lies in the intent of the author writing it, not in the correspondence to reality.

You can't speak for the author of JTTW and clearly, it was made to be a fictional novel with all the fantastical elements there are. It was written in the 16th Century and clearly notes that the author was knowledgeable enough to understand the concept of stars, planets, galaxies, and celestial bodies. People back then knew the earth wasn't a flat disk and also knew there were more than four continents, yet the author still used the Buddhist version of the Earth while incorporating some real places such as India. It was a clear mashup of different fantasy elements of different religions and folklore.

 

[Ellbekarym]

The author intended that the novel to be neither religious nor non religious.

? Is this an attempt to be particularly meta by introducing the tetralemma ? Because in itself it doesn't make sense. By "religious" I mean considering these notions to be real. You can't consider them both real and unreal.

This never happened on the wiki.

I mean, we never scaled the irl ones we just scale the ones within a certain narrative.

That's because we never scaled the "IRL ones" at all. But now we can virtually make a Buddha (JTTW) profile with the same justifications as Sun Wukong. And this profile will be perfectly identical to a hypothetical Buddha (IRL). This is a problem.

You can't speak for the author of JTTW

Neither do you.

and clearly, it was made to be a fictional novel

You think that the authors thought that all the Buddhist concepts invoked were fiction. I don't think so.

with all the fantastical elements there are. It was written in the 16th Century and clearly notes that the author was knowledgeable enough to understand the concept of stars, planets, galaxies, and celestial bodies. People back then knew the earth wasn't a flat disk and also knew there were more than four continents, yet the author still used the Buddhist version of the Earth while incorporating some real places such as India. It was a clear mashup of different fantasy elements of different religions and folklore.

I'm talking specifically about the metaphysical concepts that are the basis of the last two keys in his profile. In other words, concepts that could serve as justification for a Buddha (IRL). I don't care about the shape of the world.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I'm talking specifically about the metaphysical concepts that are the basis of the last two keys in his profile. In other words, concepts that could serve as justification for a Buddha (IRL). I don't care about the shape of the world.

So Buddha in real life is stated to be capable of holding an entire universe in their palms, and recursion of universes within grains of sand?

 

[Ellbekarym]

So Buddha in real life is stated to be capable of holding an entire universe in their palms, and recursion of universes within grains of sand?

Of course. It seems to me that you are the one who initiated all of this, you should know that. Buddha and to a lesser extent bodhisattva are virtually omnipotent, even if we were really rigorous, we would just put the "Unknown" tier on them.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Of course. It seems to me that you are the one who initiated all of this, you should know that. Buddha and to a lesser extent bodhisattva are virtually omnipotent, even if we were really rigorous, we would just put the "Unknown" tier on them.

I said real life, not in religious text. In any case, you're free to think what you wish, but the Sun Wukong profile shall remain as it is until the majority agrees otherwise.

 

[Ellbekarym]

I said real life, not in religious text. In any case, you're free to think what you wish, but the Sun Wukong profile shall remain as it is until the majority agrees otherwise.

What is this answer? Of course we are talking about the Buddhist Siddhartha, aka the one in the "religious texts". He is "stated to" do many things.

You hide behind the majority because you know in advance that I will not be heard. This is an easy win for you, no doubt.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

What is this answer? Of course we are talking about the Buddhist Siddhartha, aka the one in the "religious texts". He is "stated to" do many things.

You hide behind the majority because you know in advance that I will not be heard. This is an easy win for you, no doubt.

I'm not hiding behind the majority, that's just how the wiki works, if you want something to be changed you have to get the majority to agree with you.

Obviously, I don't agree with your takes and we have different opinions so I'm not going to bother arguing.

Especially since in the end it's not up to me or you.

 

[Ellbekarym]

I'm not hiding behind the majority, that's just how the wiki works, if you want something to be changed you have to get the majority to agree with you.

Obviously, I don't agree with your takes and we have different opinions so I'm not going to bother arguing.

Especially since in the end it's not up to me or you.

I should have read your first post more carefully. It would have allowed me to be immediately much more decisive. You quote directly from the Heart Sutra (it fact, the entierty of the Heart Sutra). What more is there to say? It doesn't get more religious than that.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I should have read your first post more carefully. It would have allowed me to be immediately much more decisive. You quote directly from the Heart Sutra (it fact, the entierty of the Heart Sutra). What more is there to say? It doesn't get more religious than that.

Within the story, it is called and considered a Magic Spell that has actual power, as such the staff had no issues as long as we used it literally.

 

[Ellbekarym]

Within the story, it is called and considered a Magic Spell that has actual power, as such the staff had no issues as long as we used it literally.

Indeed, Buddhists (some of them) consider mantras as having magical power. But you don't quote the magic power of the sutra, you quote its speech. Its message. If you claim not to call on religious concepts, think about what more you should do to call on religious concepts. And then, there is no "literal usage" when you talk about sunyata (emptiness) - although the term is misunderstood - you are referring to the Buddhist concept of sunyata.
And now that I look with some attention at the notes at the end of JTTW, many statements refer to sutras. This is unmistakable, the profile should be deleted.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Indeed, Buddhists (some of them) consider mantras as having magical power. But you don't quote the magic power of the sutra, you quote its speech. Its message. If you claim not to call on religious concepts, think about what more you should do to call on religious concepts. And then, there is no "literal usage" when you talk about sunyata (emptiness) - although the term is misunderstood - you are referring to the Buddhist concept of sunyata.
And now that I look with some attention at the notes at the end of JTTW, many statements refer to sutras. This is unmistakable, the profile should be deleted.

Your free to think that like I said before.

 

[Ellbekarym]

Your free to think that like I said before.

I doubt it although I am free to think what I want. I will make a topic asking for the deletion of the profile, accordingly.

EDIT : It's done. Here : https://vsbattles.com/threads/deleting-the-sun-wukong-profile.137610/

 

[Mariogoods]

Bump. Has the CRT fulfilled its purpose now?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Bump. Has the CRT fulfilled its purpose now?

Tech still waiting for feedback on NEP.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Tech still waiting for feedback on NEP.

JTTW still needs a proper verse page too.

 

[Greatsage13th]

JTTW still needs a proper verse page too.

agreed

 

[Elizhaa]

One the NEP point, Nature Type 2 overall is just a subset of Tranduality. Since they already have type 2 transduality, I see the additional types as being fine.

 

[Ebitan34]

Tbh, I think that Sun Wukong scaling to Infinite Universe Mount Tsumeru seems fine.

The context was Sun Wukong carrying Mount Tsumeru and Mount Ermei while running, and Mount Taishan was the one that made him collapse.

These might look like normal mountains on first glance, but JTTW is actually a composite verse that includes elements of Buddhism and Taoism, with the Buddhism elements seemingly more superior.

Mount Tsumeru in the ancient days was believed to be the axis of the Universe, and Mount Taishan was believed to be the heaviest thing ever imaginable in Chinese culture.

So I don't think it is fair to simply scale Tsumeru to a regular mountain, when its context was far far more deeper than that.

It is a symbolism of Sun Wukong carrying aspects of Buddhism and Chinese culture on his back.

It also doesn't need to break any rules on the wiki regarding religious characters, because Wu Cheng Ern was simply taking inspiration from Buddhism and Taoism elements.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Tbh, I think that Sun Wukong scaling to Infinite Universe Mount Tsumeru seems fine.

The context was Sun Wukong carrying Mount Tsumeru and Mount Ermei while running, and Mount Taishan was the one that made him collapse.

These might look like normal mountains on first glance, but JTTW is actually a composite verse that includes elements of Buddhism and Taoism, with the Buddhism elements seemingly more superior.

Mount Tsumeru in the ancient days was believed to be the axis of the Universe, and Mount Taishan was believed to be the heaviest thing ever imaginable in Chinese culture.

So I don't think it is fair to simply scale Tsumeru to a regular mountain, when its context was far far more deeper than that.

It is a symbolism of Sun Wukong carrying aspects of Buddhism and Chinese culture on his back.

We are aware, however, to avoid breaking any rules of scaling to Mythology and getting the profile deleted, we are avoiding scaling anything in JTTW to what it would be in Buddhism or Taoism.

 

[Mariogoods]

We are aware, however, to avoid breaking any rules of scaling to Mythology and getting the profile deleted, we are avoiding scaling anything in JTTW to what it would be in Buddhism or Taoism.

Tbh, I think that Sun Wukong scaling to Infinite Universe Mount Tsumeru seems fine.

Right. However, there are still many Sun Wukongs or Monkey Kings are lacking profiles and you can do them.

 

[Ebitan34]

We are aware, however, to avoid breaking any rules of scaling to Mythology and getting the profile deleted, we are avoiding scaling anything in JTTW to what it would be in Buddhism or Taoism.

Right. However, there are still many Sun Wukongs or Monkey Kings are lacking profiles and you can do them.

Would it really break any rules on the wiki regarding religious characters if Wu Cheng Ern was simply taking inspiration from Buddhism and Taoism elements though ?

 

[Mariogoods]

Would it really break any rules on the wiki regarding religious characters if Wu Cheng Ern was simply taking inspiration from Buddhism and Taoism elements though ?

We only take context which is really appeared in the novel.

 

[Martian]

Personally I have no problem with the Sun Wukong profile. Keep it! Its just a profile in a Vs Debate forum, won't hurt anyone. Plus I like Sun Wukong, he is my favorite anti-hero hero. Yeah so don't delete it.

 

[Ebitan34]

@ActuallySpaceMan @Mariogoods @Greatsage13th

I found solid proof that JJTW verse, even without Dharma, like even just their regular land is already at least 2-A in size.

A dust in JJTW is already three thousand worlds , and just the head of Tan San Zang's staff already rests 400 prefectures.
　求经脱障向西游，无数名山不尽休。兔走鸟飞催昼夜，鸟啼花落自春秋。
　微尘眼底三千界，锡杖头边四百州。宿水餐风登紫陌，未期何日是回头。

Also one Buddha Kingdom can be found in a grain of salt, and one grain of sand is 大千世界 aka Great Thousand Worlds.


佛即心兮心即佛，心佛从来皆要物。若知无物又无心，便是真如法身佛。
法身佛，没模样，一颗圆光涵万象。无体之体即真体，无相之相即实相。
非色非空非不空，不来不向不回向。无异无同无有无，难舍难取难听望。
内外灵光到处同，一佛国在一沙中。一粒沙含大千界，一个身心万法同。
知之须会无心诀，不染不滞为净业。善恶千端无所为，便是南无释迦叶。


What do you guys think about it?

 

[Greatsage13th]

@ActuallySpaceMan @Mariogoods @Greatsage13th

I found solid proof that JJTW verse, even without Dharma, like even just their regular land is already at least 2-A in size.

A dust in JJTW is already three thousand worlds , and just the head of Tan San Zang's staff already rests 400 prefectures.
　求经脱障向西游，无数名山不尽休。兔走鸟飞催昼夜，鸟啼花落自春秋。
　微尘眼底三千界，锡杖头边四百州。宿水餐风登紫陌，未期何日是回头。

Also one Buddha Kingdom can be found in a grain of salt, and one grain of sand is 大千世界 aka Great Thousand Worlds.


佛即心兮心即佛，心佛从来皆要物。若知无物又无心，便是真如法身佛。
法身佛，没模样，一颗圆光涵万象。无体之体即真体，无相之相即实相。
非色非空非不空，不来不向不回向。无异无同无有无，难舍难取难听望。
内外灵光到处同，一佛国在一沙中。一粒沙含大千界，一个身心万法同。
知之须会无心诀，不染不滞为净业。善恶千端无所为，便是南无释迦叶。


What do you guys think about it?

We already knew about that ^^ll

 

[Ebitan34]

We already knew about that ^^ll

Yeah so if just the regular sand in JJTW is already thousands of worlds, then even pre Buddha Wukong is at least 2-B lol
Actually everyone in JJTW is at least 2-B by this scaling assuming one grain of sand in there is already thousands of worlds.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Yeah so if just the regular sand in JJTW is already thousands of worlds, then even pre Buddha Wukong is at least 2-B lol
Actually everyone in JJTW is at least 2-B by this scaling assuming one grain of sand in there is already thousands of worlds.

Jttw is already High 1C.

 

[Ebitan34]

Jttw is already High 1C.

I am arguing for 2-B Pre-Buddhahood Wukong though.
Everyone there should be 2-B since a grain of salt in JJTW alone contains thousands of worlds.

Now imagine one mountain carried by Wukong, containing billions of grains of sand, aka 2-B easily at least.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I am arguing for 2-B Pre-Buddhahood Wukong though.
Everyone there should be 2-B since a grain of salt in JJTW alone contains thousands of worlds.

Now imagine one mountain carried by Wukong, containing billions of grains of sand, aka 2-B easily at least.

Are you talking about upgrading Wukong?

 

[Ebitan34]

Are you talking about upgrading Wukong?

Yeah, and everyone JJTW related.

I am fine with Buddhahood Wukong, but pre Buddhahood Wukong needs to be upgraded to at least 2-B imo if even a grain of dust in JJTW already contains thousands of worlds.

 

[Greatsage13th]

@ActuallySpaceMan

 

[Greatsage13th]

Yeah, and everyone JJTW related.

I am fine with Buddhahood Wukong, but pre Buddhahood Wukong needs to be upgraded to at least 2-B imo if even a grain of salt in JJTW already contains thousands of worlds.

Alright then

 

[Ebitan34]

Also, although it might have already be considered under the 72 transformations, I think these two techniques should be specified imo seeing how they are among his signature and most powerful techniques:

法天象地 aka Heavenly Magic Earth Transformation - Wukong transforms hundreds of thousands of feet tall, his head as big as Tai Mountain, his waist as big as range of hills, his eyes flashing like lightning, his mouth like a bowl of blood and his teeth as sharp as swords.
Wukong used this technique 3 times in total in the entire JJTW-
1) First time in Chapter 3 when he used it to show off in Flower Fruit Mountain after attaining his Golden Rod. It instantly scared all the 72 monster kings into submission.
2) Second time when he fought against Er Lang Shen, both of them used this technique to transform hundreds of thousands of feet tall and their battle shook the world.
3) Third time when he fought the Ox Demon King when the Ox Demon King transformed into his True Form aka a gigantic white bull thousands of feet tall.

三头六臂 aka Three Head Six Arms Transformation - Wukong grows two additional heads and 4 additional arms during his fight, it greatly amps him to the point he went from fighting equally against 王灵官 aka Wang Ling Guan at the Jade Emperor's palace to being capable of taking on Wang Ling Guan plus the thirty six Thunder Generals at the same time. Basically amplifies his combat prowess by many times.
The first time Wukong used it was against Nezha 哪吒 when Nezha used it on him first.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Alright then

I would argue that, but once we make the High 1-B CRT for each World it wouldn't work. Everything below Sun Wukong's world would be Tier 11 and a single world above would be High 1-B so he would be affecting tons of Tier 11 worlds in comparison to his own dimensionality.

The only reason this logic doesn't apply to his Buddha form is that Buddhas affect the entire structure which is High 1-B.