Touhou Perception Manipulation Removal

[Jinsye]

So currently we give all youkai Perception Manipulation via this statement on how time moves slowly for Youkai. This means that Youkai see the world in slow-motion. This is dumb.

It’s very unlikely that this is referring to their longevity, as there’s no indication that that would affect your perception of time, and is somewhat contradicted by how even longer-lived individuals like Hourai immortals or lunarians don’t seem to have an altered sense of time.

Living longer would affect your perception of time, as a human would have shorter amount of time to live than a youkai. They have lots of time left in the world compared to a human's few measly years of existing.

Hourai Immortals and Lunarians don't seem to have an altered sense of time, but neither do Youkai. As far as I know, in absolutely no Youkai in the history of the series has demonstrated seeing the world in slow motion. They have normal conversations with the world, normal interactions with everything, and even get hit by projectiles like normal people.

Additionally, Yukari is speaking about youkai in general here, which would include even recently created youkai such as tsukumogami.

Doesn't matter. A newly born Youkai would still have a long life ahead of them, thus a slower perception of time. Not that they literally see the world in slow motion.

You can't just take a high-end interpretation statement which is never demonstrated or supported in verse and assume it applies despite the fact that perceiving the world in slow motion is a rather big deal that you think would have an effect on the daily lives of Youkai.

 

[Jibz]

Neutral due to me not having the context of the feat, and curious of what (if any) the counter arguments would be. Leaning towards agree (i am very scared of Tohou supporters)

 

[Shmooply]

I've been pretty neutral regarding this addition, so I'll just be following the thread for now and give my thoughts once counter-arguments are brought up.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Working on a response. Will probably be a few minutes.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Living longer would affect your perception of time, as a human would have shorter amount of time to live than a youkai. They have lots of time left in the world compared to a human's few measly years of existing.

No. That's not how that works. The statement is presented in the following manner: "Youkai perceive time more slowly than humans --> We have fonder memories of the past as a result --> Remembering the past fondly is necessary for a long life, so that's why youkai live longer". Essentially, youkai do not perceive time slowly because they live longer; They live longer because they perceive time more slowly. That is what is more strongly suggested by the order of the text.

But remind me again why age is a factor when this is a very broad statement about youkai as a whole? That would include youkai such as tsukumogami, which are born spontaneously and wouldn't have centuries of living under their belt. Yet, they would still perceive time more slowly. The age of the youkai does not matter, because they still are stated to perceive time more slowly as a species, not just arbitrarily old youkai.

Hourai Immortals and Lunarians don't seem to have an altered sense of time, but neither do Youkai. As far as I know, in absolutely no Youkai in the history of the series has demonstrated seeing the world in slow motion. They have normal conversations with the world, normal interactions with everything, and even get hit by projectiles like normal people.

Them having longevity is the primary demonstration of that perception, though. That's how the text presents it; Youkai perceive time slowly, so they remember the past fondly, so they live longer. And youkai longevity is something that is quite consistent across the series as a whole, therefore, their perception manipulation is as well.

I also don't like the implication that perceiving time slowly somehow makes you immune to normal interactions. Yes, from a youkai's perspective, humans would be acting and moving more slowly, but that in no way insinuates that this makes conversation or interaction impossible. Perception manipulation also isn't some magic NLF that makes you immune to getting hit. Consider that the overwhelming majority of combat in Touhou takes place through danmaku, where perceiving time more slowly isn't particularly useful when you're surrounded on all sides by projectiles; Hell, this is even proven in SSiB, where Sakuya, even in stopped time, is unable to dodge a particularly difficult danmaku pattern. So youkai still getting hit is just a consequence of the regular means through which people fight in Touhou, not an anti-feat. Perception manipulation also is not a speed amp, meaning if you are targeted by an attack that surpasses your speed, that perception manip will do very little good (especially when we're talking dozens or hundreds of attacks at once).

Doesn't matter. A newly born Youkai would still have a long life ahead of them, thus a slower perception of time. Not that they literally see the world in slow motion.

That... is not how longevity works, at all. How long someone may or may not live has no affect on their perception of time, especially since their life is not even necessarily guaranteed to be long. Going back to tsukumogami, weaker ones revert back to normal after a time, meaning their effective "lifespan" is a few days at most (or in the case of the scans presented, less than a few hours). Or how about the Fortune Teller, who lived for less than a day before getting his skull caved in? They too are included in Yukari's statement, despite not having a long life ahead of them in any sense of the phrase.

You can't just take a high-end interpretation statement which is never demonstrated or supported in verse and assume it applies despite the fact that perceiving the world in slow motion is a rather big deal that you think would have an effect on the daily lives of Youkai.

The text outright describes how it has an effect on the daily lives of youkai though. It makes it so they remember the past more fondly.

Neutral due to me not having the context of the feat, and curious of what (if any) the counter arguments would be. Leaning towards agree (i am very scared of Tohou supporters)

Good >: )

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Reminder that we have 4 currently active threads so here's hoping one of them gets evaluated and closed before staff notices.

 

[Breakdown]

Aging often makes you feel like time is passing faster, OP is a young whippersnapper.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You're forcing an interpretation of the statement that follows along with your narrative, yet makes no sense. We all know Youkai live long and thus are out of touch with human experience. This being the subject of the conversation makes a lot more sense than some random time perception quirk never mentioned anywhere, regardless of how you want to play around with the sentence order.

Age doesn't matter. Longevity does. A 1 year old youkai still has easily potentially hundreds, if not thousands of years ahead of them. Time still moves slowly for them, because they'll spend a lot longer in their relative infancy. Unlike humans, who live and die fast and thus might not have as much potential to cherish the past. Of course some Youkai do die young, but implying the original statement is invalid because of some Youkai dying early is extremely silly.

Also, if Youkai actually saw the world in slow motion compared to everyone else, there is no way they'd lose this much to non-Youkai. Yet they blatantly do. This is never brought up as any kind of special ability they have in any context whatsoever except during this extremely shaky statement. So either this Perception thing is entirely useless in any context except memory, or it doesn't exist.


In short, this entire thing is:

1. A blatant misinterpretation of a statement that ignores context

2. Intensely inconsistent with actual portrayal

3. Even if true, would be entirely useless, as Youkai frequently get matched and out-sped by non-Youkai

4. Even if true, would absolutely not be "Manipulation" of anything and wouldn't be some silly passive speed buff

 

[Breakdown]

"Time moves more slowly for us Youkai." is a pretty straightforward and simple statement. I disagree with the removal.

 

[ÆONS]

Following the thread.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

"Time moves more slowly for us Youkai." is a pretty straightforward and simple statement. I disagree with the removal.

This is the exact problem the entire verse has right now. Taking statements out of context and presenting them as "Pretty straightforward and simple statements", regardless of how much it collapses when looked at closely.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You're forcing an interpretation of the statement that follows along with your narrative, yet makes no sense. We all know Youkai live long and thus are out of touch with human experience. This being the subject of the conversation makes a lot more sense than some random time perception quirk never mentioned anywhere, regardless of how you want to play around with the sentence order.

The way the statements are presented absolutely does matter. One thing is presented as a consequence of another, and regardless of what the context is, that order can and will matter. You're the one forcing an interpretation that doesn't exist here; There is no way to read the statement in a way that says youkai are perceive time slowly because they live longer. It's the complete inverse.

Age doesn't matter. Longevity does. A 1 year old youkai still has easily potentially hundreds, if not thousands of years ahead of them. Time still moves slowly for them, because they'll spend a lot longer in their relative infancy. Unlike humans, who live and die fast and thus might not have as much potential to cherish the past. Of course some Youkai do die young, but implying the original statement is invalid because of some Youkai dying early is extremely silly.

A lifespan and the relative time one spends in certain "stages" of life are completely disjointed from the way one would perceive time. And again, this makes 0 sense when characters such as Mokou, Yuyuko, various gods, and so on never once have statements referring to their perception of time as slower despite their immortality.

But even then this is discounting how youkai don't have things like infancy or anything resembling a traditional human life cycle; Tsukumogami are formed spontaneously, humans and animals can become fully formed youkai, not to mention youkai are formed from human thoughts. Rinnosuke even says that "normal human processes" like aging don't happen for him, so there is no way in hell this is referring to the process of getting older or aging as a human would.

Also, if Youkai actually saw the world in slow motion compared to everyone else, there is no way they'd lose this much to non-Youkai. Yet they blatantly do. This is never brought up as any kind of special ability they have in any context whatsoever except during this extremely shaky statement. So either this Perception thing is entirely useless in any context except memory, or it doesn't exist.

I went over this. The very nature of danmaku limits the usefulness of perception manipulation. Even high-level time manipulators like Sakuya, who can one-up youkai by outright stopping time, still have trouble dealing with danmaku. Their losses are dictated by the rules designed explicitly to make fights fairier; Them having very obvious and overwhelming advantages is the very reason spell cards were created to begin with.

1. A blatant misinterpretation of a statement that ignores context

2. Intensely inconsistent with actual portrayal

3. Even if true, would be entirely useless, as Youkai frequently get matched and out-sped by non-Youkai

4. Even if true, would absolutely not be "Manipulation" of anything and wouldn't be some silly passive speed buff

Perception manipulation is not a speed amp. Youkai getting blitzed means nothing, because a subsonic character with perception manipulation would still lose a race to an FTL character because the rate at which their body moves does not increase based on their perception. Conversely, even if a youkai can see a character faster than them moving slower than they really are, that does not actually affect how fast either of them are moving. Same goes for projectiles and other supposed anti-feats. This argument is based on a huge misunderstanding of how perception manipulation even works.

It is the way youkai personally view time that matters here; If they were directly altering time itself, I would've given them time manipulation.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Basically a lot of this comes down to "I don't like what the text says so I'll go with 'what makes more sense'", even if that interpretation doesn't even work with what the text says to begin with. It's a headcanon, which is unfortunately common for Touhou debates.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It doesn't matter in this context. You can clearly see in the conclusion of the paragraph that the point is "Those who live long HAVE to see the past fondly, otherwise they get overwhelmed by the negative experiences they accumulate". It very explicitly spells out what the previous statement means. And so reading it as "Time flows slowly for them (metaphor for them being long-lived and thus living life more slowly than short-lived people) results in them seeing the past more fondly, as long-lived beings who wouldn't do that would be overwhelmed by bad experiences" makes a lot more sense as an interpretation than some exclusive perception ability that's unsupported anywhere else.

Non-Youkai old people absolutely do not need to go out of their way to state that their perception of time is slower than humans for that to apply to them. The quote this statement is from was talking about Youkai. There was no reason to bring up those other being in this context, and these other beings have no reasons to suddenly state that. This is not an argument.

My dude slowed perception would absolutely help massively in a danmaku context, where micro-dodging and being able to perceive your surroundings at a slower rate would very much help. Even then, the Spell Card rules are a very recent addition and doesn't always exist even in modern times. Youkai get killed on-screen with absolutely no signs of being massively faster than humans many times. And Youkai did get killed in the past, with again nothing indicating that they could easily dodge everything.

If you agree with that, then this slowed Perception (which shouldn't be Manipulation of Perception either way) is useless in actual combat outside of thought-activated abilities. Which means that whatever is going on in Vs Threads regarding Youkai supposedly blitzing everyone is very wrong.



This entire situation is very simple. Either you take "Time flows slowly for Youkai" as a metaphor for their long age, or you take it entirely literally. The literal option is unsupported by over 20 years of depicting Youkai as simply long-lived and by them getting their ass kicked over and over.

 

[Jinsye]

My dude slowed perception would absolutely help massively in a danmaku context, where micro-dodging and being able to perceive your surroundings at a slower rate would very much help. Even then, the Spell Card rules are a very recent addition and doesn't always exist even in modern times. Youkai get killed on-screen with absolutely no signs of being massively faster than humans many times. And Youkai did get killed in the past, with again nothing indicating that they could easily dodge everything.

Pretty much this. Even if you don't move faster than your surroundings, having slowed perception would absolutely massively help you in dodging danmaku. Because that's how danmaku works. It allows you to make perfect readjustments to your body so you can dodge it as danmaku generally leaves very small but dodgable gaps. You don't need to move faster than the bullets.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It doesn't matter in this context. You can clearly see in the conclusion of the paragraph that the point is "Those who live long HAVE to see the past fondly, otherwise they get overwhelmed by the negative experiences they accumulate". It very explicitly spells out what the previous statement means. And so reading it as "Time flows slowly for them (metaphor for them being long-lived and thus living life more slowly than short-lived people) results in them seeing the past more fondly, as long-lived beings who wouldn't do that would be overwhelmed by bad experiences" makes a lot more sense as an interpretation than some exclusive perception ability that's unsupported anywhere else.

Yes, but that doesn't contradict the rest of the statement. It also says "Being able to look fondly on the past is necessary for the long of life", so evidently looking fondly on the past is why youkai have longevity. And the reason why they're able to look fondly on the past is because they experience time more slowly, as stated in the very opening of the passage. This can absolutely coexist with statements about how seeing the past fondly can also prevent being overwhelmed by negative experiences. They live long and they don't get overwhelmed by negative experiences, what about one disproves the other?

Also just because it's mentioned once doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Can't tell you how many Touhou abilities have that same issue, but we don't take "unsupported anywhere else" as a debunk in the 100 or so other cases, now do we?

Non-Youkai old people absolutely do not need to go out of their way to state that their perception of time is slower than humans for that to apply to them. The quote this statement is from was talking about Youkai. There was no reason to bring up those other being in this context, and these other beings have no reasons to suddenly state that. This is not an argument.

Yukari does make an explicit mention of "all living things" in this passage, so clearly her comparison goes beyond just youkai and humans. The fact that, while covering multiple different species, she only attributes a slower flow of time to youkai, shows that yes, other immortals not being brought up in this context absolutely makes the age interpretation inconsistent.

My dude slowed perception would absolutely help massively in a danmaku context, where micro-dodging and being able to perceive your surroundings at a slower rate would very much help. Even then, the Spell Card rules are a very recent addition and doesn't always exist even in modern times. Youkai get killed on-screen with absolutely no signs of being massively faster than humans many times. And Youkai did get killed in the past, with again nothing indicating that they could easily dodge everything.

First off, we have absolutely 0 details on how fights with youkai went prior to the spell card rules. Those fights are left entirely vague and we have no indication of how, if at all, people were able to bypass certain youkai traits. Using that as a counterargument is ridiculous. I also don't buy the "slowed perception makes dodging danmaku easier" when we have very explicit confirmation that that is not the case, even when using abilities that are leagues more powerful than perception manipulation. Even if you see things in slow motion, you still need to have room to move and awareness of your surroundings in order to dodge properly, things that aren't necessarily guaranteed when using perception manipulation. And of course, even with perception manipulation, you're not immune to a projectile simply being faster than you. Like I said before, a subsonic character can't suddenly dodge lasers or outpace FTL attacks because "perception manip lol".

It is a massive NLF to assume that perception manipulation of any kind is enough to make one "untouchable" to projectile based attacks; It is useful, obviously, but it isn't infallible, especially when dealing with hundreds of projectiles.

If you agree with that, then this slowed Perception (which shouldn't be Manipulation of Perception either way) is useless in actual combat outside of thought-activated abilities. Which means that whatever is going on in Vs Threads regarding Youkai supposedly blitzing everyone is very wrong.

...No, this is just how perception manipulation works. It can be used to predict what your opponent will do before they do it (eg; Seeing the motion someone makes to pull out a weapon before they actually do it and basing your next move off of that), make thought based moves more reliable, or just have more time to decide what to do next in a fight. You seem fixated on interpreting perception manipulation as either an instant wincon that nobody can bypass or something that may as well do jack shit, when it's just... a decently strong ability with some advantages that aren't instant win tier.

And yes, I'm aware perception manipulation is not the best label, but we don't really have an ability for having altered perception of any kind and it would be a significant enough ability to be worth adding, so I went with the next best thing.

...Also we haven't had literally any youkai VS matches where perception manip was a deciding factor, it was either "passives lol", "AE lol", or "smurf hax lol".

 

[ÆONS]

After looking into arguments from both Saikou and Fujiwara, I feel that Fuji makes the most sense here as of now. So I disagree with the removal.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

One more things, why the **** are we acting like youkai getting hit and losing is an anti-feat when Sakuya and Kaguya exist and get their ass beat on the regular? Slowing/stopping time doesn't do shit to prevent them from losing, so the same would hold true for characters with inferior hax.

 

[Breakdown]

Or when Shion's auto lose probability manipulation is a thing

 

[ÆONS]

Pretty much this. Even if you don't move faster than your surroundings, having slowed perception would absolutely massively help you in dodging danmaku. Because that's how danmaku works. It allows you to make perfect readjustments to your body so you can dodge it as danmaku generally leaves very small but dodgable gaps. You don't need to move faster than the bullets.

It's a useful ability, but not something useful for Non-Youkai characters within Touhou considering Sakuya was unable to dodge a complicated danmaku pattern even by stopping time itself. The best this ability can be used for is against characters whose skills and abilities do not revolve around making danmaku patterns or extremely hard-to-avoid attacks rendering characters with Time Stop abilities trapped which is basically the rest of the characters in this wiki.

 

[Jinsye]

Also just because it's mentioned once doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Can't tell you how many Touhou abilities have that same issue, but we don't take "unsupported anywhere else" as a debunk in the 100 or so other cases, now do we?

This is a weak argument.

An entire race of people seeing the world in slow motion is different from somebody tossing out a fireball and never using it again. If you perceive the world in slow motion, it would make a pretty huge impact on your life that you think it would be brought up more than once in the twenty year history of the series. Especially when that ability can be interpreted as something else and make far more sense.

I'll get to the rest later.

 

[Breakdown]

Can be interpreted as something else

Whattaboutism.

 

[ÆONS]

This is a weak argument.

An entire race of people seeing the world in slow motion is different from somebody tossing out a fireball and never using it again. If you perceive the world in slow motion, it would make a pretty huge impact on your life that you think it would be brought up more than once in the twenty year history of the series. Especially when that ability can be interpreted as something else and make far more sense.

I'll get to the rest later.

I mean technically it should be interpreted as something else given Fuji admitted that Perception Manipulation is just the best fit for something like this. I think that the best way to deal with this is to come up with a different way to express this sort of thing.

 

[Breakdown]

Why would something need to be mentioned more than once to be true, either?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

This is a weak argument.

An entire race of people seeing the world in slow motion is different from somebody tossing out a fireball and never using it again. If you perceive the world in slow motion, it would make a pretty huge impact on your life that you think it would be brought up more than once in the twenty year history of the series. Especially when that ability can be interpreted as something else and make far more sense.

I'll get to the rest later.

Yes.

Because it does impact their lives.

By being the canonical reasoning behind youkai longevity. Which is very much not a "one and done" deal considering the large number of youkai who are hundreds of years old and several statements confirming said longevity. The fact that the reasoning behind that longevity is mentioned once is not a reason to discredit it. And while it can be interpreted differently, those interpretations still need to make sense based on the text and the way it's presented, which your interpretation does not do.

Why would something need to be mentioned more than once to be true, either?

This ^

 

[Jinsye]

By being the canonical reasoning behind youkai longevity. Which is very much not a "one and done" deal considering the large number of youkai who are hundreds of years old and several statements confirming said longevity. The fact that the reasoning behind that longevity is mentioned once is not a reason to discredit it. And while it can be interpreted differently, those interpretations still need to make sense based on the text and the way it's presented, which your interpretation does not do.

My small ass brain can't understand this statement, but what?

Viewing the world in slow motion = can live for hundreds of actual years? How does that work. That's not even what the scan says. What you're saying is that youkai bodies are in a constant time stasis, which I can tell is far different from what you're trying to argue.

They have longevity because youkai lifespans are longer, not because the world is in slow motion.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah I think I agree with the removal, this seems to be taking things way too literally.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

My small ass brain can't understand this statement, but what?

Viewing the world in slow motion = can live for hundreds of actual years? How does that work. That's not even what the scan says. What you're saying is that youkai bodies are in a constant time stasis, which I can tell is far different from what you're trying to argue.

They have longevity because youkai lifespans are longer, not because the world is in slow motion.

No, viewing the world in slow motion means they have fonder memories of the past, with that being why they live longer. This is supported by how youkai are beings ruled by their desires, with that being a fundamental component of their existence; The way they perceive and think about the world quite literally dictates their existence.

Yeah I think I agree with the removal, this seems to be taking things way too literally.

Well the non-literal interpretation isn't even represented in the text so :v

 

[Armorchompy]

Well the non-literal interpretation isn't even represented in the text so :v

Seems to me like it is, given the topic is memories, and your extrapolation as to why this is related to them is IMO a huge reach, so :y

 

[ÆONS]

I think I know what Fuji means with her recent statements, but I'm gonna have to scroll through a bit of content in the wiki to provide my interpretation so it'll take a while :V

 

[Roachman40]

I agree with Saik and Ed's statements a lot more than what fuji is saying atm, I agree with the removal.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Seems to me like it is, given the topic is memories, and your extrapolation as to why this is related to them is IMO a huge reach, so :y

The order in which the statements are presented means the non-literal interpretation is getting its cause and effect messed up. Nothing in the text says youkai perceive time slowly and have fonder memories of the past because they live longer; But it does say that they have fonder memories of the past and live longer because they perceive time slowly ("Time flows much more slowly for youkai than it does for humans. Unsurprisingly, we have much fonder memories of times past").

The first interpretation is ignoring what's written in favor of "what makes more sense", which in my eyes should be a no-go, especially since the supposed anti-feats boil down to "characters with perception manipulation cannot lose or get hit ever".

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

What?

"Slowed perceptions make them appreciate the past more, making them live long" is a very silly interpretation. Why would their perception of time being slower make them appreciate the past, when simply living long wouldn't?


Also if you're trying to apply some big ability that scales to the vast majority of the characters of the franchise, you absolutely need for it to be supported, or at least not contradicted. Like I said, perceptions much faster than that of everyone else would absolutely help in their fights or be mentioned more than once. Yet it hasn't.

That Sakuya scan is very bad. Sakuya could easily escape in that screenshot. Her not doing so is either a Spell Card limitation or plainly PIS. It doesn't magically mean that being able to dodge much better than normal is not useful.

Yukari is simply saying that all living beings need to look upon the past fondly to live long and healthy. It doesn't exclude other long-living beings from doing so as well. Yukari's statement about Youkai seeing time slowly is separate from that. "Youkai live long. So of course we look on the past fondly. Every beings need to look on the past fondly if they want to live long." That's all there is to it.


I re-iterate what I said. Time moving slowly for them simply meaning they live long makes 100% more sense with the context of the statement than interpreting it literally. It requires a lot more logical jumps (aka ignoring how it's never mentioned again, all inconsistencies, etc.) than the non-literal interpretation.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

What?

"Slowed perceptions make them appreciate the past more, making them live long" is a very silly interpretation. Why would their perception of time being slower make them appreciate the past, when simply living long wouldn't?

...Living long also doesn't make you appreciate the past. That's an equally silly interpretation. They're both kinda weird and nonsensical, but since those are the only two options we're given, we go with what is actually in the text.

Also if you're trying to apply some big ability that scales to the vast majority of the characters of the franchise, you absolutely need for it to be supported, or at least not contradicted. Like I said, perceptions much faster than that of everyone else would absolutely help in their fights or be mentioned more than once. Yet it hasn't.

No not really lol

May I remind you that we do the same shit for names being type 1 concepts and gods creating reality, giving them a ton of hax that are mentioned once and then never again. Same goes for the three "layers" of reality, which are also very important but also mentioned once and never again. Or most characters having magic and ESP off of one off statements... I could go on. This feels like singling out this one specific ability for arbitrary reasons.

That Sakuya scan is very bad. Sakuya could easily escape in that screenshot. Her not doing so is either a Spell Card limitation or plainly PIS. It doesn't magically mean that being able to dodge much better than normal is not useful.

Even ignoring that doesn't disprove my point. Are you going to say that every single time Sakuya loses, it's because of PIS? Because realistically speaking her time manip would mean she'd win every spell card duel effortlessly, but she loses quite often. Same deal for Kaguya. If losing to characters who don't have a way to bypass their hax isn't an anti-feat for them, why is it an anti-feat for youkai?

Yukari is simply saying that all living beings need to look upon the past fondly to live long and healthy. It doesn't exclude other long-living beings from doing so as well. Yukari's statement about Youkai seeing time slowly is separate from that. "Youkai live long. So of course we look on the past fondly. Every beings need to look on the past fondly if they want to live long." That's all there is to it.

Youkai live long because they remember the past fondly --> youkai remember the past fondly because the live long, which makes sense at a glance but... This is just a recursive loop. Why do they live longer? Because they remember the past fondly. But why do they remember the past fondly? Well, because they live longer. There's no end to this loop, and there's no real "starting" justification; This interpretation literally just collapses in on itself lmao

The time perception stuff doesn't have any contradictions like that built in, it's just a very simple process of "(x) causes ( y) which causes (z)" and not "(x) causes ( y) which causes (x) which causes ( y)...". Why the **** are we assuming a logic loop to be the interpretation that makes more sense?

Also I never said other long-lived beings were excluded; I just said they were lumped together with humans in the category of "people who don't perceive time slowly". If it were based on age, they'd be grouped with youkai instead.

I re-iterate what I said. Time moving slowly for them simply meaning they live long makes 100% more sense with the context of the statement than interpreting it literally. It requires a lot more logical jumps (aka ignoring how it's never mentioned again, all inconsistencies, etc.) than the non-literal interpretation.

The text does not even say that. Furthermore, your interpretation induces a recursive logic loop, which should not be a default interpretation by any means. That alone makes it make less sense than the perception manip.

It not being mentioned again is not a debunk. The inconsistencies literally just amount to massive amounts of NLF (ie; assuming perception manip makes it impossible to get hit or even lose) that ignore how fights in Touhou are even portrayed.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

...Living long also doesn't make you appreciate the past. That's an equally silly interpretation. They're both kinda weird and nonsensical, but since those are the only two options we're given, we go with what is actually in the text.

Or maybe neither of them are the direct reason behind this. And that them looking on the past fondly is just required to not go mad due to depression. Them looking at the past fondly doesn't have to have a direct source. It can very easily be just a thing that happened. Overly pessimistic youkai get too sad to do anything so only those who are adapted to living long remains. There is no recursion, you just think that this non-anomalous personality trait must be caused by some physiology of youkai.

May I remind you that we do the same shit for names being type 1 concepts and gods creating reality, giving them a ton of hax that are mentioned once and then never again. Same goes for the three "layers" of reality, which are also very important but also mentioned once and never again. Or most characters having magic and ESP off of one off statements... I could go on. This feels like singling out this one specific ability for arbitrary reasons.

Most of this is irrelevant to Gods in their daily life. Their concept hax is inherently limited and they lost most of their powers when being named. Even then, this is more commonly supported and is based on less guesswork than this upgrade.

Though if you really insist on this being inconsistent too, we can just downgrade gods as well.

Even ignoring that doesn't disprove my point. Are you going to say that every single time Sakuya loses, it's because of PIS? Because realistically speaking her time manip would mean she'd win every spell card duel effortlessly, but she loses quite often. Same deal for Kaguya. If losing to characters who don't have a way to bypass their hax isn't an anti-feat for them, why is it an anti-feat for youkai?

I'm saying that Spell Cards prevents her from spamming time stop. Spell Card rules don't make a natural slowed perception go to 'normal' by itself. Unless you say Youkai can control this, which isn't supported.




I'll just say this

[Youkai see times more slowly] thus [They can look more fondly on the past] thus [They can live for long without a mental breakdown]

Makes less sense than and requires more assumptions than

[Youkai can look more fondly on the past] thus [They can live for long without a mental breakdown]

There is no recursion. There is no verse-wide assumptions. There is no fighting 20 years of portraying Youkai without this ability. There is no overly literal interpretations of text.

 

[ÆONS]

Before I delve into how I perceive things work we need to state some things about how youkai actually exist in the world. Essentially, youkai are beings who are different from human beings. While humans exist through their physiology and biology, youkai are incorporeal beings who rely on the perception or interaction with humans such as by harming them in order to exist. As a result, if humans disappear, the existence of youkai would also be in trouble.

In addition to all of that information, youkai are beings ruled by their spirit, their emotions and feelings and if they try to ride themselves of their desires, they will deny them selves of their existence. This is the most important aspect of their existence as my interpretation hinges on this fact.
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So I'll now go ahead and explain my interpretation of this sort of unconventional perception youkai possess. Here is the whole paragraph:

This is probably just nostalgia coloring my recollection. Time flows much more slowly for us youkai than it does for humans. Unsurprisingly we have much fonder memories of times past. This is probably because both humans and youkai, indeed all living beings, live out their lives in a series of harsh experiences. Living creatures who can't do this become controlled by a sense of resignation since everything that has happened in the past was so much worse than the present, so they probably tend to see everything as bad. Being able to look fondly on the past is a necessity for the long of life; those who are unable to do this and always think that what's happened in the past was bad essentially have no future to look forward to.

"This is probably just nostalgia coloring my recollection. Time flows much more slowly for us youkai than it does for humans." — This part is self-explanatory, time is perceived slower for youkai than it does for humans which results in youkai gaining longevity as a result of their unconventional perception of time. This is also the titular aspect of debate with people disagreeing what this entails and for how it is possible, so I'll see if my interpretation can help explain this aspect.

"Unsurprisingly we have much fonder memories of times past. This is probably because both humans and youkai, indeed all living beings, live out their lives in a series of harsh experiences." — This statement brings up the experiences of humans and youkai, not surprising considering their history with one another, but it also concerns all life which should include Vengeful Spirits, Divine Spirits, Hourai Immortals, etcetera. But to make things easier I'll simply focus on youkai and humans. These two species live out their lives in a series of experiences of either positivity or negativity. Humans with their shorter lives have less fond memories of the past than youkai do for the simple reason of their lifespan as well as physiology. They are biological, material, beings whose bodies grow into adulthood only to decay and weaken to death. Youkai are immaterial beings whose existence doesn't hinge on such things as their life cycle is consequentially different from human beings entirely. This will work in conjunction with the next part.

"Living creatures who can't do this become controlled by a sense of resignation since everything that has happened in the past was so much worse than the present, so they probably tend to see everything as bad." — Living beings cannot live as long as youkai do, as a result their harsher experiences build up into a sort of negativity of which gives them a sense of resignation due to their higher tendency to view everything poorly. The term "resignation" is interesting as it can be synonymous with the term "surrender" or the notion of "giving up." It is almost as if they let their negative feelings and emotions rule over them they will resign from living. Of course, this does not exactly apply to human because of what I said, but it certainly does for youkai as I'll explain next.

"Being able to look fondly on the past is a necessity for the long of life..." — Youkai are able to look fondly to the past of life because of them perceiving time more slowly, but at the same time as Saikou himself as well as this part brought up:

It doesn't matter in this context. You can clearly see in the conclusion of the paragraph that the point is "Those who live long HAVE to see the past fondly, otherwise they get overwhelmed by the negative experiences they accumulate". It very explicitly spells out what the previous statement means. And so reading it as "Time flows slowly for them (metaphor for them being long-lived and thus living life more slowly than short-lived people) results in them seeing the past more fondly, as long-lived beings who wouldn't do that would be overwhelmed by bad experiences"

Youkai also have a sort of need or obligation of doing so as the build up of negative feelings and emotions would cause feelings of "resignation" and as I said earlier, youkai are beings ruled by their emotions, so feelings of resignation could potentially lead to their very existence being at risk, or some other results that are not good for them. The bottom line is, feelings of negativity is unhealthy for youkai. On the other hand, the ability of youkai to view the past as well as their experiences in a positive light allows them to suppress their negative emotions and live on even longer. This ability is a necessity. In fact, this paragraph implies, if not explicitly states, that the only way this sort of thing is possible is for youkai to perceive time itself differently from everyone else.

"...those who are unable to do this and always think that what's happened in the past was bad essentially have no future to look forward to." — This is the part that, in a way, reinforces what I explained. People who are unable to view their lives in a positive manner would essentially have no future to look up to, this doubly applies to youkai who are ruled entirely by their feelings and emotions and, as a result, would "lack a future to lookup to" so to speak. Whether this would mean that their existences in themselves would be at risk is something that is still not clear to me, but I do seek some elaboration or additional explanation from either Saikou or Mokou.

Speaking of Saikou, I wonder how and why he came to the conclusion that this statement: "Time flows much more slowly for us youkai than it does for humans." is somehow metaphorical and not meant to be taken literally. So I would like some elaboration on that point specifically. I know that what I explained teeters onto headcannon territory, but I feel that something similar can be said for Saikou's and Mokou's points of view. I just hope that my interpretation at least makes things a little bit clearer to people in this thread.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Speaking of Saikou, I wonder how and why he came to the conclusion that this statement: "Time flows much more slowly for us youkai than it does for humans." is somehow metaphorical and not meant to be taken literally. So I would like some elaboration on that point specifically.

Because it's a common figure of speech. Time feeling slow for people when they're bored or otherwise is just, a thing that's said by people even in real life. You can easily say that, for example, time goes slower for a turtle than a human, since it lives for much longer. Assuming automatically that this MUST be some supernatural ability, especially when this text talks more about psychology and outlook on the past than physiology of Youkai, is just getting your vision tainted by VSB to be quite honest. Authors don't try to fit feats and abilities in every quote they say.

(Also I'd like to add that this is a fanmade translation. The specific wording is less important than the overall message if we don't have direct confirmation that this specific wording is used in Japanese)

Hell the current interpretation is still non-literal. If we took it entirely literally, we'd assume they're physically slowed down due to time flowing less fast for them. But you all decided to interpret it as "Only their perception is slowed, not their entire being". Clearly showing you're willing to take a more metaphorical approach to a statement if the literal interpretation makes no sense. Yet you all insist that this statement cannot mean anything other than literally slower perception.


Also I disagree with the notion that only Youkai would be bothered by being overwhelmed by negative experiences. If even a real human only remembered the bad part of the past, they'd be quickly overwhelmed by feelings that everything sucks. There is a reason why Nostalgia is a thing humans evolved, among other things. And the text clearly states that ALL living beings (which specifically includes Youkai too) need to have this outlook if they want to live long. Youkai just have it more, due to their much longer lifespan.

 

[Shmooply]

Still won't voice my thoughts on this, but this one specific part bothers me:

(Also I'd like to add that this is a fanmade translation. The specific wording is less important than the overall message if we don't have direct confirmation that this specific wording is used in Japanese)

You do realize this dialogue was translated over and over again by a large community that's dedicated to translating Touhou stuff until it sounded accurate and good enough, right? We might as well scrap the entire verse since not only does its scaling rely on fanmade translations, but literally everything else, since it's a Japanese franchise that has very rarely gotten anything officialy translated and sold overseas.

 

[ÆONS]

Also I disagree with the notion that only Youkai would be bothered by being overwhelmed by negative experiences. If even a real human only remembered the bad part of the past, they'd be quickly overwhelmed by feelings that everything sucks. There is a reason why Nostalgia is a thing humans evolved, among other things. And the text clearly states that ALL living beings (which specifically includes Youkai too) need to have this outlook if they want to live long. Youkai just have it more, due to their much longer lifespan.

Well, true. I might have given off that impression from what I said but I feel that it is abundantly obvious that humans, and pretty much everyone else, would be affected by negative emotions in life. It's simply that youkai in particular are more affected by it than humans are simply due to what they are. I decided to focus much more on youkai as a result and ignored humans as a result.

Also thanks for the elaboration.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You do realize this dialogue was translated over and over again by a large community that's dedicated to translating Touhou stuff until it sounded accurate and good enough, right? We might as well scrap the entire verse since not only does its scaling rely on fanmade translations, but literally everything else, since it's a Japanese franchise that has very rarely gotten anything officialy translated and sold overseas.

I'm not saying do not use translated material. I'm saying that if your interpretation of an interpretation of the original Japanese line goes against the more concrete and obvious meaning of this quote, then maaaaybe it's not a good interpretation.