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Artoria4.png
MusashiStage04.png

Rin-Artoria
Base Musashi
Part 1 of is "Artoria really the strongest Saber?"
 
"Fate Manipulation (Heavenly Eyes Allows her to "cut fates", or in other words, limit possibilities into a single outcome she desires. Myoujingiri Muramasa allows her to sever the "Karma" and Causality of her targets. She also has the luck to overturn inevitable outcomes such as having her heart pierced by Gáe Bolg. After reaching Zero, she is capable of shaving all of existence down to a single possibility that is totally unavoidable. She can also create new possibilities, instead of choosing one of the already existing ones)"

L
 
Musashi Heavenly Eyes is not as potent as everyone think it is. She simply see through infinite possibilities and in order to narrow it down to single outcome she desires she must put an effort to make it happen by continuing attacking her opponent and such so it's not really "she see the possibility and then it will definitely happen" no its not work like that "she must make it happen" not "it will definitely happen" its more akin to precognition than Fate manipulation. Thats mean Artoria still have a chance to make it not happen.

And her zero form may be unavoidable but it doesnt mean it's absolute, her attack in zero form can't be avoided but it can be blocked, the reason she cannot cut Ivan was because his protection of lightning and Musashi simply have no AP to cut through it hence she only able to cut his trunk after his protection of lightning is removed, this is the same reason Musashi can't cut the Gods of Olympus or anyone who have super armor/durability like them.

Artoria on the other hand while have more AP than Musashi, her skill definitely below her. But even with Heavenly Eyes i don't think Musashi can make the "desired outcome" easily because of Artoria's Instinc skill. She can feel any danger coming to her so the moments Musashi trying to make her desired outcome Artoria can definitely feel it and block it, not to mention that Artoria have A rank luck so it's definitely hard for Musashi to cut her.

So i think it's a battle of who get the first hit, Artoria definitely lose in terms of skill but on the other hand she was also very hard opponent for Musashi, if Artoria managed to use Excalibur and hit Musashi she definitely win but i think Musashi will see this and prevent her to use that. If Musashi managed to slip through Artoria's instinc then she could definitely win but i hardly see that due to Artoria's A rank luck.

I vote for inconclusive but leaning towards Artoria.
 
So, the heavenly eyes of musashi can see through of worlds and timelines and artoria instinct is broken to the point that she sees what will happen in dangerous situations and stop it, but musashi have advantage in this skill dispute, but, artoria have something to deny the passive of Myoujingiri Muramasa?
 
Well, it's the same eye that cannot see the possibility where Musashi defeat Ivan, it's not potent as you think it is, it just the same thing like Gilgamesh's SNI.

It doesnt matter what Musashi see what matter was the single possibility she choose that she want to make happen, so its not that Artoria's Instinct is broken she just simply counter it.

Myoujingiri is a problem only when it reach her spirit core. If Artoria can block it then it shouldnt be a problem.

I think Artoria can use her Mana Burst better with Rin as her master, can Musashi do anything about the AP gap between the two?
 
Well, it's the same eye that cannot see the possibility where Musashi defeat Ivan, it's not potent as you think it is, it just the same thing like Gilgamesh's SNI.

It doesnt matter what Musashi see what matter was the single possibility she choose that she want to make happen, so its not that Artoria's Instinct is broken she just simply counter it.

Myoujingiri is a problem only when it reach her spirit core. If Artoria can block it then it shouldnt be a problem.

I think Artoria can use her Mana Burst better with Rin as her master, can Musashi do anything about the AP gap between the two?
Ivan is a 1-C Low, heavenly eye is fate manip, space and time manip, precog, if musashi sees that is a hard battle via heavenly eyes, she just uses np and wins this battle, and if artoria use excalibur to stop it ( what wouldn't happen ) her would just counter it because of the effect of np.

forgive me for my poor english, what i meant by broken is that it is a very strong skill.
 
Ivan is a 1-C Low, heavenly eye is fate manip, space and time manip, precog, if musashi sees that is a hard battle via heavenly eyes, she just uses np and wins this battle, and if artoria use excalibur to stop it ( what wouldn't happen ) her would just counter it because of the effect of np.

forgive me for my poor english, what i meant by broken is that it is a very strong skill.
You completely miss my point, it doesnt matter what Ivan's tier is the point is that there's clear limit in Musashi's Heavenly Eyes because people tend to use it as her auto-win button.

Heavenly Eyes only shows Musashi how to defeat her opponent, it doesnt give her complete information about their skill, true name or their past and future meaning even if she knows Artoria is a hard opponent she wouldnt know about her ability or her future.

Also it's off character for Musashi to use her NP off the bat, she is most likely to want to exchange blow with swordmaster from the west.

Now that i think about it, if they exchange blow i don't think Musashi can parry Artoria's attack imbued with Mana Burst, i think i will vote for Artoria for this reason.
 
You completely miss my point, it doesnt matter what Ivan's tier is the point is that there's clear limit in Musashi's Heavenly Eyes because people tend to use it as her auto-win button.

Heavenly Eyes only shows Musashi how to defeat her opponent, it doesnt give her complete information about their skill, true name or their past and future meaning even if she knows Artoria is a hard opponent she wouldnt know about her ability or her future.

Also it's off character for Musashi to use her NP off the bat, she is most likely to want to exchange blow with swordmaster from the west.

Now that i think about it, if they exchange blow i don't think Musashi can parry Artoria's attack imbued with Mana Burst, i think i will vote for Artoria for this reason.
Heavenly Eye have a limit, but, ivan tier is precisely the reason she didn't see a way to beat him, and the heavenly eye show more than that in a BATTLE, im not saying that she would know of her abilities and skills, and yes of your movements, this part of the heavenly eye works like an eye of mind of rank EX.

Its not off character because musashi tends to cheat and do everything to beat his opponents, or how she tried to run away when she saw she wouldn't beat yagyuu in their first duel.

Musashi would probably dodge artoria's blows since their speeds are the same and artoria's instinct only works in dangerous situations and not in a matter of hitting her opponent, she would have a high advantage in that situation because of her heavenly eye.
 
Heavenly Eye have a limit, but, ivan tier is precisely the reason she didn't see a way to beat him, and the heavenly eye show more than that in a BATTLE, im not saying that she would know of her abilities and skills, and yes of your movements, this part of the heavenly eye works like an eye of mind of rank EX.

Its not off character because musashi tends to cheat and do everything to beat his opponents, or how she tried to run away when she saw she wouldn't beat yagyuu in their first duel.

Musashi would probably dodge artoria's blows since their speeds are the same and artoria's instinct only works in dangerous situations and not in a matter of hitting her opponent, she would have a high advantage in that situation because of her heavenly eye.
She literally see how to defeat Chaos "defeat" not "kill" also she did cut Ivan's trunk when his protection of lightning is removed, before his protection of lightning is removed she can't even scratch him, so it's not about Ivan's tier.

Musashi does use cheap tricks to defeat her opponent yes but using NP off the bat is not her character, besides she doesnt know precisely how strong Artoria is, what she know is that Artoria is strong that is.

I doubt she can dodge every attacks, her skill is above Artoria but Artoria herself is not that weak that Musashi could dodge every of her attack, also i'm pretty sure that Mana Burst A has decent aoe that makes it harder for Musashi to dodge.
 
She literally see how to defeat Chaos "defeat" not "kill" also she did cut Ivan's trunk when his protection of lightning is removed, before his protection of lightning is removed she can't even scratch him, so it's not about Ivan's tier.

Musashi does use cheap tricks to defeat her opponent yes but using NP off the bat is not her character, besides she doesnt know precisely how strong Artoria is, what she know is that Artoria is strong that is.

I doubt she can dodge every attacks, her skill is above Artoria but Artoria herself is not that weak that Musashi could dodge every of her attack, also i'm pretty sure that Mana Burst A has decent aoe that makes it harder for Musashi to dodge.
Yes, it is, this has never even happened with anyone other than ivan, why is it?

She only saw how to defeat chaos because of the fissure he had made to go to the place, and all she had to do was cut that, not chaos.

Heavenly eyes would work. there is no reason why it wouldn't work normally in this battle.

Is not off character if she sees that she is losing or is going to lose.

Artoria is not weak, speed of both are the same btw, it's because of the heavenly eye that i said this.

And yea, musashi can tank any attack of musashi because of battle continuation EX, if she doesn't cut off her head she can survive any attack. That would be enough for her to use np and win this battle.
 
This battle is a musashi victory, all artoria can do is use excalibur before its too late, but i don't think that would even happen, artoria would break musashi with mana burst after several attacks with musashi dodging, and musashi would use NP and would win the battle.
 
And about heavenly eyes, musashi at first didn't see a way to defeat ivan, but due to the circumstances of his protection skill being disabled she managed to at least cut his trunk.

If ivan had something to sustain him, or keep him alive, musashi would find out about it by the heavenly eye and cut that, like she did with chaos.

In this example, if Artoria is with a Master, she would see a way to stop Artoria through the Master's death.

It depends a lot on the circumstances, however, against enemies that musashi can affect how artoria she simply sees a way to defeat her, on this occasion she would simply tank one attack with mana burst and take advantage of the situation and use np.
 
I don't get what are you trying to say but you just repeating my point. Heavenly Eye can see how to defeat Chaos which mean it's not about tier, same case with Ivan, Musahsi cannot see how to defeat him but after his protection of lightning is removed she can cut his trunk.

Again Heavenly Eyes only show her how to defeat her opponent, its not going to tell her that it's a losing battle, especially since Artoria isnt that strong.

I never said Heavenly Eyes doesn't work it just Artoria's instinct counter Musashi's Heavenly Eyes.

(I hate repeating myself like this)

Master here is just provide mana they're not present in battle.

Musashi's Battle Continuation doesn't work like that, she simply ran away or using dirty tricks to survive if she cannot defeat her opponent, she would not have any survivability like King Hassan or any other Servants with high Battle Continuation.
 
I don't get what are you trying to say but you just repeating my point. Heavenly Eye can see how to defeat Chaos which mean it's not about tier, same case with Ivan, Musahsi cannot see how to defeat him but after his protection of lightning is removed she can cut his trunk.

Again Heavenly Eyes only show her how to defeat her opponent, its not going to tell her that it's a losing battle, especially since Artoria isnt that strong.

I never said Heavenly Eyes doesn't work it just Artoria's instinct counter Musashi's Heavenly Eyes.

(I hate repeating myself like this)

Master here is just provide mana they're not present in battle.

Musashi's Battle Continuation doesn't work like that, she simply ran away or using dirty tricks to survive if she cannot defeat her opponent, she would not have any survivability like King Hassan or any other Servants with high Battle Continuation.
Battle Continuation of Musashi works like any other, is not like a disengage.

She has battle continuation for running away from fights or playing dead and coming back as an awesome comeback, you're confusing.

Heavenly Eyes not only show a form to defeat her opponent, and i already said about this.

And " nothingness " can probably handle artoria's mana burst attacks as well, in addition to the battle continuation.
 
Battle Continuation of Musashi works like any other, is not like a disengage.

She has battle continuation for running away from fights or playing dead and coming back as an awesome comeback, you're confusing.
I really really don't understand what you trying to say, first you try debunk my argument not only without proof but you debunk your own argument the next second.

Musashi_last_moments.png


Here Musashi dying, does she looks like she lost half of her body? Is there any limbs that not present? Is there any hole in her body? Or is there any fatal injuries?

Heavenly Eyes not only show a form to defeat her opponent, and i already said about this.

You already said about what?


And " nothingness " can probably handle artoria's mana burst attacks as well, in addition to the battle continuation.

Nothingness only gives her peerless swordmanship, it doesn't give her any ability to block or parry attack beyond her AP, at most she can only block something on the level of Tsubame gaeshi, yes the same thing that failed to give any major injury to Artoria.

Seriously do you even read the story? It's tiring for me to get the proof or explain what their abilities do to you.
 
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Nothingness only gives her peerless swordmanship, it doesn't give her any ability to block or parry attack beyond her AP, at most she can only block something on the level of Tsubame gaeshi, yes the same thing that failed to give any major injury to Artoria.
are you really trying to say that being so good at escaping attacks that even a sword move fueled by multi-dimensional refraction phenomenon can be stopped is bad? Based on the fact that Artoria could survive it -not escape it- and counter-attack only because his sword being bent, a total coincidence, created a flaw in his technique? That tsubame gaeshi? Still the same tsubame gaeshi that allowed him to defeat heracles in unlimited codes?
 
I really really don't understand what you trying to say, first you try debunk my argument not only without proof but you debunk your own argument the next second.

Musashi_last_moments.png


Here Musashi dying, does she looks like she lost half of her body? Is there any limbs that not present? Is there any hole in her body? Or is there any fatal injuries?



You already said about what?




Nothingness only gives her peerless swordmanship, it doesn't give her any ability to block or parry attack beyond her AP, at most she can only block something on the level of Tsubame gaeshi, yes the same thing that failed to give any major injury to Artoria.

Seriously do you even read the story? It's tiring for me to get the proof or explain what their abilities do to you.
I just don't understand your point, you are wrong in every way about musashi's abilities

First of All, Heavenly Eyes Allows her to "cut fates", or in other words, limit possibilities into a single outcome she desires. Myoujingiri Muramasa allows her to sever the "Karma" and Causality of her targets. She can also create new possibilities, instead of choosing one of the already existing ones. ( Fate Manip )

Her mentality allows her to bend space and time to their needs, to bring about the outcome she desires. ( Space and Time Manip )

Her style of fighting is incredibly proficient at reading her opponents next move, to the point where she can play out thousands of possible outcomes in her head ( Analytical Prediction and Information Analysis )

Her Heavenly Eyes can gaze into possibilities, allowing her to witness and view a number of parallel worlds and look into equaly many futures. The number of possibilities and parallel worlds Musashi is said to view is implied to be infinite ( Cosmic Awareness and Precognition )

Is not like just see the way to defeat her opponent, is much than that
 
Emptiness is a it's an "invulnerability" skill that even sasaki with tsubame gaeshi couldn't get past it

And her battle continuation isn't just about escaping battles, or playing dead, she won this battle continuation BECAUSE OF THAT, but it works just like any other:

" Battle Continuation: A skill that reflects the ability to survive and continue fighting, which allows users to fight on despite grievous wounds and escape safely even when defeated. Musashi possesses an EX rank in this skill, due to using any underhanded trick she can think of to avoid death and survive, this includes things like playing dead, speeches to confuse her enemies as well as outright escapes to pull off amazing comebacks. "
 
I mean, depends on how Artoria goes about if. Starting with an excaliblast leaves Musashi with very little to do. Her skills are neat, yes, but A rank luck and Instinct can work immensely well against her attempting to force a single outcome to be the only possible one.

If they get to melee, though, Artoria is obviously cut down.
 
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