1-A Megami Tensei question

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Mine is we should treat all verses the same way, it should be a one size fits all not that we treat a verse this way and another verse another way.

I’m not understanding… is that not the requirement for all 1-A characters? Transcend the concept of dimensions?

Vsbw in a nutshell unironically.
You will never find peace.

No rest for the weary. Death, taxes, death, taxes.

 

[Odinson]

I’m not understanding… is that not the requirement for all 1-A characters? Transcend the concept of dimensions?

It is, and it's illogical to believe you aren't 1-A after transcending concept of dimensions with no anti feats.

Are you really going to say dimensions exist beyond the concept of dimensions ? Tf ?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

It is, and it's illogical to believe you aren't 1-A after transcending concept of dimensions with no anti feats.

Are you really going to say dimensions exist beyond the concept of dimensions ? Tf ?

Uh, are you asking me or are you telling me? I can’t tell if you’re supporting or against it. I agree regardless.

 

[Odinson]

Uh, are you asking me or are you telling me? I can’t tell if you’re supporting or against it. I agree regardless.

I'm telling, and supporting.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I’m not understanding… is that not the requirement for all 1-A characters? Transcend the concept of dimensions?

Technically speaking, it isn't an actual one to begin with.
Tho it is more complex than just that ofc.

You can be 1-A without dealing with dimensional shit at all, and you can be bound by dimensions while being tier 0 as well.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Nobody who is present in the novel, no, since the fundamental nature of God and the world at large is supposed to be a mystery to everyone involved up until the very end. The only one who has knowledge of the realm, as far as I'm aware, is Sera, and even she is specified to not truly comprehend it beyond some vague, purely intuitive understanding, since she has been separated from God for years as of the novels' events.

I meant in the entire series, not the novel.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I'm telling, and supporting.

Ah, well then yeah, I agree 2x. We already know that information isn’t bound by coordinates, movement only happens in the Quantum Sea (Nirvana) because it’s perceived as movement, Philemon’s realm is described as a plane where “this place lacks a ceiling, walls, and support pillars, like we’re floating in a dark space”, and Elizabeth in the Collective Unconscious states “up and down are indefinite”.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I meant in the entire series, not the novel.

Oh, yeah, dozens. Since we equalize the Atziluth, Kadath, and Quantum Sea (Nirvana), many people have. Vairocana, Virocana, Yog-Sothoth, Brahman, Lucifer, Izanami, etc…

 

[QuasiYuri]

Oh, yeah, dozens. Since we equalize the Atziluth, Kadath, and Quantum Sea (Nirvana), many people have. Vairocana, Virocana, Yog-Sothoth, Brahman, Lucifer, Izanami, etc…

Do any of these guys have statements that could be similar to the novel's regarding it?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Are you really going to say dimensions exist beyond the concept of dimensions ? Tf ?

Well what are 1A dimensions?
Per our standards Yes.

What I was saying is there are verses out there that should also get upgraded to 1A if all it takes is a "possibly beyond dimensions, no coordinates in this place"
And also the whole no up or down, thing will apply to any higher dimensions you will lose your sense of direction in a higher plane.

But well what do I know

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Do any of these guys have statements that could be similar to the novel's regarding it?

Absolutely, yeah, if you check the verse page, you’ll find the Cosmology Blog. I’ll link it anyways, just read the three sections “The Expanse”, “The Collective Unconscious”, and “The Quantum Sea”.

 

[Odinson]

Well what are 1A dimensions?

Those are still bound by concept of dimensions though

 

[PrinceofPein]

Those are still bound by concept of dimensions though

And they are supposed not to be...... We have verses that have 1A dimensions even though the entire 1A tier is supposed to be unbound by any dimensions, so I was answering your question there can be dimensions/layers even in places that are supposedly unbound by the concept of dimensions conceptually

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Well what are 1A dimensions?
Per our standards Yes.

What I was saying is there are verses out there that should also get upgraded to 1A if all it takes is a "possibly beyond dimensions, no coordinates in this place"
And also the whole no up or down, thing will apply to any higher dimensions you will lose your sense of direction in a higher plane.

But well what do I know

I think you’re ignoring the fact that it said concept of dimensions, not beyond dimensions. There is a substantial difference, the tiering system will tell you that.

Keep in mind, the quote:

Or possibly, what I had done was expand beyond even the concept of “dimension” and into an unknown space.

And the requirement:

Characters who can significantly affect, create and/or destroy realms or states that fully transcend infinitely-layered hierarchies and/or dimensional levels on a conceptual or existential level, normally being portrayed as entirely external abstractions that lie outside of the applications of spatiotemporal dimensionality as a constant defined by physics on any level, even compared to infinite or uncountably infinite dimensions, usually by perceiving them as akin to fiction or something similarly insignificant.

If there are other verses with these requirements satisfied, that aren’t 1-A (and lack some specific verse-only nuance keeping them from getting there), then I’d wholly agree with them being that level too.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I think you’re ignoring the fact that it said concept of dimensions, not beyond dimensions. There is a substantial difference, the tiering system will tell you that.

If there are other verses with these requirements satisfied, that aren’t 1-A (and lack some specific verse-only nuance keeping them from getting there), then I’d wholly agree with them being that level too.

The term "concept of dimension" usually isn't considered enough for the requirement you quoted tho, and as said prior, dimensions go beyond 1-A anyway.

Although it's more of a problem of the Tiering System rather than MegaTen.

 

[Teezar]

Transcending time doesn't give any 1-A rating nor being outside causality does, indeed.
Time is a "dimension". It's only natural to use this as support as well since the concept of dimension is transcended. In Serph's case, going outside of causality is most likely a consequence of it. It is no actual evidence, but clue.

All you mention aren't any supporting evidence at all for 1A or close to it.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Absolutely, yeah, if you check the verse page, you’ll find the Cosmology Blog. I’ll link it anyways, just read the three sections “The Expanse”, “The Collective Unconscious”, and “The Quantum Sea”.

Thanks. Is there anything else that would hold similar statements?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Thanks. Is there anything else that would hold similar statements?

We actually found some newer stuff, actually, that I may or may not pester Ultima with to add in his blog.

During the events of SMT:IV, you’re introduced to Charon, who makes a fairly interesting statement on what lies beyond River Styx.

In Devil Survivor 2, Fumi describes the inner workings of the Demon Summoning App, in which she states you get the Demon’s summoned blueprint, in this case, would be the Akashic Records, being on the same level as the Atziluth. “Blueprint” isn’t the first time we’ve seen this term used before, as Strange Journey: Schwarzwelt Reminiscences will explain:

This is also basically a "systems first" project (I think it's the most difficult setting in this work...). It's a wonderful machine that is the pride of science fiction, embodying the words of Jules Verne, "What man can imagine, man can surely achieve...!" I hope you will forgive me for this beautiful summary... It's hard to shake off the sleeves that don't work, but does. Forma, the material of this material synthesis system, is composed of two unique constituent factors (I use "factors" because we can't say "elements" or "elementary particles"). The two factors are the "matter" factor, which we are familiar with, and the "information" factor, which is not so familiar to us. The fact that "information" forms a thing (forma) as a factor is probably because it is in the environment of the Schwarzwelt. In the forma, the "information" factor behaves like a gene or blueprint of the forma. In other words, the forma is a rare material that has both "matter" from the matter factor and "blueprint" from the information factor. The material synthesis system extracts and analyzes each of these two factors, a "blueprint" from the information factor and a "matter" from the matter factor. If the extracted "blueprint" can be diverted and the "matter" is sufficient, then the new item can be created (in that case, magic coins are required as energy to cause the reaction). I made a rough outline of what I had in mind, but it's not easy to understand... I'd like to say that this is inspired by Aristotle's concept of "matter versus form"...no, that would be a huge afterthought. I'm not sure if this material synthesis system would work as well in the Schwarzwelt if it were brought back to the human world (some would argue that the materials are not available).

Furthermore, the Sea of Souls is described as a place where “up and down are indefinite”, and Philemon’s domain exists as a place without any support pillars, ceilings, and walls, and a place where Maki describes as “just floating in the dark”.

 

[Darksmash]

no coordinates in this place"
And also the whole no up or down, thing will apply to any higher dimensions you will lose your sense of direction in a higher plane.

The coordinates and up down thing is just used to validate in-verse context, it's not a supporting argument in this situation at all.

 

[Darksmash]

Those are still bound by concept of dimensions though

Define "dimensions"
Because I am pretty sure you can define it in a broad enough way for it to encompass tier 0 or in a narrow enough way for it to not even be Tier 1. That's why context matters

 

[Darksmash]

Furthermore, the Sea of Souls is described as a place where “up and down are indefinite”

Uhh, wouldn't that just mean the space goes up and down indefinitely?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Uhh, wouldn't that just mean the space goes up and down indefinitely?

In this case, definition number 2, which is supported by the Maki statement, and two Schrodinger ones.

not clearly expressed or defined; vague.
"their status remains indefinite"

 

[QuasiYuri]

Imo everything seen so far would at best be a possibly under current VSB standards, but I got the answers I asked for and it's a Q&A thread so this thread can be closed once the others' questions are answered.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Imo everything seen so far would at best be a possibly under current VSB standards, but I got the answers I asked for and it's a Q&A thread so this thread can be closed once the others' questions are answered.

I’ll take a possibly, better than nothing lol. I hope the answers were satisfactory enough, and thanks for the time.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I’ll take a possibly, better than nothing lol. I hope the answers were satisfactory enough, and thanks for the time.

Thanks for the answers. Idk if we debatted in the past but you're a cool guy.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Thanks for the answers. Idk if we debatted in the past but you're a cool guy.

Nope, I don’t recall. But thanks, you’re chill too. I hope you really enjoy P4G, and check out other MT entries. SMT V is pretty good.

 

[sanicspood]

balls