Tien Shinhan, Krillin and possibly Yamcha should be upgraded to "at least High 5-A"

[SirAlex09]

Krillin: Why would Krillin scale to Tien??? This statement has nothing to support it

He surpassed him in the Buu saga when Yamcha stated he is the strongest Earthling.

And they have always been close in terms of Power level throughout the entire series

 

[Nullflowerblush]

And they have always been close in terms of Power level throughout the entire series

Goku and Vegeta have always been relatively close in power throughout the series, so surely they are comparable in the Buu Saga.
Oh right, Vegeta needed a boost from Babidi to match him in power.

You're just hypothesizing- guessing really.

 

[Vizer04]

He surpassed him in the Buu saga when Yamcha stated he is the strongest Earthling.

Manga?

And they have always been close in terms of Power level throughout the entire series

True.

 

[Vizer04]

@Nullflowerblush
@Gilad_Hyperstar
@SirAlex09

It's like this (more simplified):

Piccolo (Post-Nail) << Frieza (3rd Form) <<< Vegeta (Post-Zenkai) < Goku (Post-Zenkai) ≤ Yamcha (Android Saga) ≤ Krillin (Android Saga) ≤ Tien Shinhan (Android Saga) < Goku (Android Saga) ~<~ Dr. Gero

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

He surpassed him in the Buu saga when Yamcha stated he is the strongest Earthling.

And they have always been close in terms of Power level throughout the entire series

This is Android/Cell Saga Humans though, not Buu Saga

 

[Vizer04]

Do you have more questions?

 

[SirAlex09]

This is Android/Cell Saga Humans though, not Buu Saga

He didn't train in the Buu saga and the timeskip so the surpassing happened in the Android Saga at some point

 

[SirAlex09]

Goku and Vegeta have always been relatively close in power throughout the series, so surely they are comparable in the Buu Saga.
Oh right, Vegeta needed a boost from Babidi to match him in power.

Except they weren't. In the Frieza Saga he was far above Vegeta and the same goes for Android Saga where 50 % FssJ Goku was above Vegeta. It's a Game of always catching up and surpassing with Goku ending up massively stronger than Vegeta at the end of the arc.

The trend is different from Krillin/ Tien

 

[Vizer04]

Piccolo (Post-Nail) << Frieza (3rd Form) <<< Vegeta (Post-Zenkai) < Goku (Post-Zenkai) ≤ Yamcha (Android Saga) ≤ Krillin (Android Saga) ≤ Tien Shinhan (Android Saga) < Goku (Android Saga) ~<~ Dr. Gero

Yamcha: At least Dwarf Star level (His power grew enough that Dr. Gero and Android 19, who had knowledge of Goku's power during his battle with Vegeta, believed Yamcha to be Goku. Should not be much weaker than Krillin)

Krillin: At least Dwarf Star level (Not too far behind Tien at this time)

Tien: At least Dwarf Star level (Superior to Namek Saga Goku) far higher with Kikoho (Managed to pin Semi-Perfect Cell down by continuously using the attack, but this badly drained and nearly killed him) | Star level (Superior to his Android Saga self and capable of briefly distracting Buutenks) | Large Star level (Managed to destroy a good chunk of the Kachi Katchin arena, which should make him far stronger than Buu Saga Base Gohan, who was unable to destroy regular Katchin)

This summarizes the conclusions of this discussion and the upgrades that should be made. Any questions or objections?

 

[SirAlex09]

This summarizes the conclusions of this discussion and the upgrades that should be made. Any questions or objections?

Staff will say no anyway since most arguments are legit assumption rather than statements

 

[Vizer04]

But still, Tien should be at the very least comparable to Vegeta, and that's already lowballing him.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Let'sa-go.

Some info, you can take this as you will.

At first, SSJ Goku probably wasn't weakened by the virus, as Tien, who have felt his already incredible power before the Timeskip, was still impressed by his Chi, which wouldn't have been the case if he was weaker than he was 3 years ago, or even worse, weaker than Namek Saga SSJ Goku.

The Androids states SSJ Goku wasn't strong enough to fight them.

Vegeta casually debunks VSBW and powerscaling in general

Piccolo states SSJ Goku was fighting close to his full power at the beginning, which further proves that he wasn't that much weakened at his SSJ form until he actually started fighting, and therefore, the same goes for his base form when he dodged the laser

 

[GodlyCharmander]

the same goes for Android Saga where 50 % FssJ Goku was above Vegeta.

That's not true.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

That's not true.

This is from a completely different point in time. Also please use the official translation for the scans

 

[SirAlex09]

I am talking about this

Ups I meant the original

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Let'sa-go.

Some info, you can take this as you will.

At first, SSJ Goku probably wasn't weakened by the virus, as Tien, who have felt his already incredible power before the Timeskip, was still impressed by his Chi, which wouldn't have been the case if he was weaker than he was 3 years ago, or even worse, weaker than Namek Saga SSJ Goku.

The Androids states SSJ Goku wasn't strong enough to fight them.

Arrogance from before the fight. Goku effortlessly overpowered 19 even while the virus was having its toll on Goku's body. It's only after a while that Goku's state worsens and he starts losing. Goku was weakening throughout the entire fight and was never at full power to begin with

Vegeta casually debunks VSBW and powerscaling in general

This quote is irrelevant to this subject, and pretty meaningless

Piccolo states SSJ Goku was fighting close to his full power at the beginning, which further proves that he wasn't that much weakened at his SSJ form until he actually started fighting, and therefore, the same goes for his base form when he dodged the laser

Goku was out of breath even by simply flying to the Android's location, and was clearly running low on energy. Not to mention that the heart virus is making Goku weaker the more time passes

Also, all of your scans are from an unofficial translation of the manga, so unless you bring up these, I'm not trusting these

 

[Vizer04]

Arrogance from before the fight. Goku effortlessly overpowered 19 even while the virus was having its toll on Goku's body. It's only after a while that Goku's state worsens and he starts losing. Goku was weakening throughout the entire fight and was never at full power to begin with

This quote is irrelevant to this subject, and pretty meaningless

Goku was out of breath even by simply flying to the Android's location, and was clearly running low on energy. Not to mention that the heart virus is making Goku weaker the more time passes

Also, all of your scans are from an unofficial translation of the manga, so unless you bring up these, I'm not trusting these

Do you have any proof that Goku was weakened by the heart virus before Tien pointed that out when they arrived to the battlefield?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Do you have any proof that Goku was weakened by the heart virus before Tien pointed that out when they arrived to the battlefield?

We know the Heart Virus effects weakened Goku. To the point he went from stomping 19 effortlessly to being defeated by him after it became worse. SSJ only accelerated the severity of the virus' effects.

However, Goku already had the virus from the moment he came to the city to fight the Androids, and we do see Goku being out of breath by simply flying, so yeah, he was very much weakened

 

[Vizer04]

we do see Goku being out of breath by simply flying

Scans please?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

As requested.

 

[Vizer04]

Do you have any proof that Goku was weakened by the heart virus before Tien pointed that out when they arrived to the battlefield?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Scans please?

 

[Vizer04]

?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Arrogance from before the fight. Goku effortlessly overpowered 19 even while the virus was having its toll on Goku's body. It's only after a while that Goku's state worsens and he starts losing.

They can read power levels, this should still far outscale Namek Saga characters as a whole via Tien's energy sensing.

Goku was weakening throughout the entire fight and was never at full power to begin with

At the beginning, he was very close to full power as stated by Piccolo.

This quote is irrelevant to this subject, and pretty meaningless

It's just a joke, how can you be that dense?

Goku was out of breath even by simply flying to the Android's location, and was clearly running low on energy. Not to mention that the heart virus is making Goku weaker the more time passes

If you truly believe that stamina and amounts of energy correlate directly Attack Potency, rather than being responsible for how long you can keep that power going, you should start making those High 3-A revisions for the Androids. We had two implications which says that Goku was at full power at the beginning of the fight, but quickly lost his power.

Also, all of your scans are from an unofficial translation of the manga, so unless you bring up these, I'm not trusting these

Usually, I wouldn't listen to your whining, and just tell you to go find the official translations if you thing they differentiate from the ones I sent, as I care very little about your trust or lack of there of. But I will use the official ones from now on

 

[GodlyCharmander]

This is from a completely different point in time. Also please use the official translation for the scans

No. Go look for the official translation if you're unsatisfied with the scan I provided, I don't own you shit. Piccolo stated the exact same thing in the official one, this one was just easier to link as I didn't have to screenshot and literally upload it somewhere else.

Also, he said Android Saga Vegeta was behind Android Saga Goku, which is not true. SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Goku until they trained.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

No. Go look for the official translation if you're unsatisfied with the scan I provided, I don't own you shit. Piccolo stated the exact same thing in the official one, this one was just easier to link as I didn't have to screenshot and literally upload it somewhere else.

Also, he said Android Saga Vegeta was behind Android Saga Goku, which is not true. SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Goku until they trained.

You realize you can link it with imgur right?

Also no need to be rude. I didn't insulted you so there's no need for you to do that either

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Refusing to post a valid source can be used against you. Just saying

 

[Vizer04]

Can we please keep this discussion from derailing?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Refusing to post a valid source can be used against you. Just saying

He doesn't get to pick and choose what's "valid", the official translation has been wrong multiple times, and we do accept fanmade translations as source as far as I'm concerned. Although I already agreed to provide the official translation from now on.

Now, let's refocus on the subject, please.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

He doesn't get to pick and choose what's "valid", the official translation has been wrong multiple times, and we do accept fanmade translations as source as far as I'm concerned. Although I already agreed to provide the official translation from now on.

Now, let's refocus on the subject, please.

If a fanmade translation contradicts the official one, then the fanmade is wrong and not the other way around

Regardless I agree with your other point to stick to the subject

 

[GodlyCharmander]

So, Goku could use SSJ at full power for a very, very brief time before losing power due to the virus. It is entirely plausible to say that Base form Goku was at full power when he threw that punch and dodged the laser.

Tien should scale to Base form Goku before the HTC Training. That one is solid. Krillin and Yamcha should be the main focus unless someone has a problem with what I have stated.

 

[Vizer04]

So, Goku could use SSJ at full power for a very, very brief time before losing power due to the virus. It is entirely plausible to say that Base form Goku was at full power when he threw that punch and dodged the laser.

Tien should scale to Base form Goku before the HTC Training. That one is solid. Krillin and Yamcha should be the main focus unless someone has a problem with what I have stated.

Wholeheartedly agree.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Furthermore, if you want to argue Goku has more afinity with speed, which is consistent with his showings in Classic DB, Tien being somewhat comparable to him in speed is far more impressive as he is a balanced fighter with no focus on any particular category.

 

[Vizer04]

Krillin and Yamcha should be the main focus

Krillin has always been superior to Yamcha, and Gero considered Yamcha to be a good suply of energy to absorb.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

So, Goku could use SSJ at full power for a very, very brief time before losing power due to the virus. It is entirely plausible to say that Base form Goku was at full power when he threw that punch and dodged the laser.

Tien should scale to Base form Goku before the HTC Training. That one is solid. Krillin and Yamcha should be the main focus unless someone has a problem with what I have stated.

Scans? Why would Tien scale to Base Android Saga Goku?

 

[Vizer04]

Scans? Why would Tien scale to Base Android Saga Goku?

Did... did you just completely ignore their explanation?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Krillin has always been superior to Yamcha, and Gero considered Yamcha to be a good suply of energy to absorb.

I see. But being a good supply of energy would have any relation to scaling? Would he be a good supply because he is so far above human limits? Would first form freeza not be a good supply of energy for them? Cell got a considerable power up from absorbing thousands of humans, Gero is considerably weaker, so can we really use this statement for an upgrade?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Did... did you just completely ignore their explanation?

Both dodging a laser beam doesn't mean Tien = Base Goku

While they were comparable in the Classic DB, it's not the case anymore in DBZ

 

[Vizer04]

I see. But being a good supply of energy would have any relation to scaling? Would he be a good supply because he is so far above human limits? Would first form freeza not be a good supply of energy for them? Cell got a considerable power up from absorbing thousands of humans, Gero is considerably weaker, so can we really use this statement for an upgrade?

Gero wasn't all that threatened by the Super Saiyan transformation. Yamcha being weaker than First Form Frieza wouldn't make a good suply of energy, at all...

 

[Vizer04]

it's not the case anymore in DBZ

Because you said so, no?