Re-examining Super Mario cast Tiers

[The_Smashor]

we already have a thread that we are discussing about the feat that is under review right now, if you so much want to see what things were or were not said go to the thread and check it out.

I'd prefer to iron out my argument with one Mario fan so that it isn't shit when I bring it to the big thread.

 

[liluzivert]

Alright then, I'll destroy the entire universe one 9-B attack at a time.

He dosn't say he'll destroy the time in those universes, does he?

does bowser have 3-A on his profile? I don't think so. Do you know how multiverse destruction works over time? You have to break a space-time barrier to destroy each dream, he has to destroy time. This is how multiversal tiers work.

I mean he brought up Kid Buu but if you want another there’s Void Termina and his statement that’ll they’ll be the end of everything

Kid Buu is a false equivilence. It's stated that Buu would destroy the universe over time, not that "he will destroy the universe". That case has context that debunks universal. Void Termina "destroying everything" is vague. And bringing "the end of all tomorrows" could mean anything. Cell is also stated to be able to destroy the universe over time.

but ok, if we really need evidence for Low 2-C. Bowser already scales to things that can destroy the universe instantaneously. Base Bowser downscales to Mario, Mario scales to Wario who can defeat the Black Jewel. And Mario is superior to an amped grand star Bowser. Bowser already has the energy output needed to bust a universe if he wants to. therefore it is a valid interpretation regardless. Disprove the other feats before saying this feat is illegitimate. Bowser CAN destroy the dream universes, it's already on his page to begin with.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Wario Land scales to nobody but those in Wario's series, why bring it up?

 

[The_Smashor]

Mario scales to Wario who can defeat the Black Jewel.

Except this wiki considers the Wario series and Mario series seperate. It's really, really stupid, but they do.

Cell is also stated to be able to destroy the universe over time.

No, 16 just said he'd destroy the universe. No "Over time" stuff.

Bowser already has the energy output needed to bust a universe if he wants to.

I still find the Prima Guide stuff iffy, espesially with Dragon's translation of the Japanese stuff.

Bowser CAN destroy the dream universes, it's already on his page to begin with.

Isn't that only with prep, though?

 

[DragonLord]

that Buu would destroy the universe over time

…is it?, I honestly read the entire arc recently and the manga makes no indication of this outside of it making more sense with the scaling

 

[The_Smashor]

I think the main problem with Mario discussions is that both sides are way too used to seeing the worst of the other side.

Mario supporters are way too used to seeing people downplay Mario to hell and back and are inherently defensive, while Mario opponents are way too used to seeing people wank Mario to hell and back and are less patient with the other side.

The worst of us have even the more moderate of us at each other's throats simply for being on the other side.

 

[liluzivert]

Please argue here about the new feats. These feats are not accepted yet and therefore not relevant to this current discussion. Please don't derail.

 

[liluzivert]

That thread is also giving additions, which is for accepted feats, but the point of this is that most of accepted feats are really not clear enough.

Anyway, explain how they are not clear enough. I went into detail for each one. Talk about Olly in the other thread btw.

 

[TMaakkonen]

Anyway, explain how they are not clear enough. I went into detail for each one. Talk about Olly in the other thread btw.

Rosalina mentioning about cosmos having new cycle with the dead of stars is clearer evidence than someone who doesn't even work for Nintendo writing not even that clear mention of Bowser surviving a cruel fate.

You could argue for both angles really, so its really not definitive.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I think Bowser having a headache and clearly in pain despite the rest of the recreated folk being lively or passed out but fine bare minimum is all the context we need to show he tanked something.

But whatever.

The translations don't disprove anything, DragonLord. They say what I pretty much thought they had said since the start. I'm glad to have a more reliable translation though.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

And about hax you have to be fair for all verses then. Mario characters change what they lead with all the time just like plenty of other game characters, hell, just characters in general.

Kirby gets a new ability in one game and suddenly he always has led and will continue to lead with that ability.

It's a weird erroneous zone IMO.

 

[DragonLord]

The translations don't disprove anything, DragonLord. They say what I pretty much thought they had said since the start. I'm glad to have a more reliable translation though.

I mean, I dunno it doesn’t say really anything about creating a new universe, it just says Bowser is finishing up what will be his power core in his army and the core of his (meaning he’ll rule over it) Universe, basically just what the English version said

I don’t think it really supports or denies the guide outright

 

[liluzivert]

Rosalina mentioning about cosmos having new cycle with the dead of stars is clearer evidence than someone who doesn't even work for Nintendo writing not even that clear mention of Bowser surviving a cruel fate.

It is definitive. Cycles of stars just refers to the cycles of Lumas turning into galaxies, which is a good explanation as to why Peach's Castle is back. Mario even says "Welcome! Welcome new galaxy!" Not new universe. You need to prove that the entire space-time continuum was reset. Otherwise we just go with the simple answer that the Luma's stopped the collapse and created a new galaxy. Not to mention the star Bowser is on at the ending is literally the reactor itself. Hell Bowser can even tank minor blows from the reactor when he rams into it, which just supports the tier even more. So no, universal reset has absolutely no evidence supporting it.

And it's really getting tiring to mention this, but the Prima Guides being approved by Nintendo themselves is already proof that it's reliable by default. And unless it's contradicting the material of the story, it is valid. So stop bringing it up time and time again.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

You literally posted the translations that say new universe

And like I said, English parallel supports creation and basic plot and stroytelling would make that meaning he wanted to rule over it redundant because he already had that power available to him from the start according to Rosalina.

 

[DragonLord]

You literally posted the translations that say new universe

Given his further statements about building a galactic empire, I think he means ruling over it not making a new one

basic plot and stroytelling would make that meaning he wanted to rule over it redundant because he already had that power available to him from the start according to Rosalina.

1: he has the power to rule the world from the start because he has the Grand Star on him from the Start, this is why her ship cannot move after all until you fix it

2: he’s clearly not ruled the Universe yet considering even the Bee Queen is perfectly fine

3: even if you used every planet and Galaxy onto a map that would not even be 10% of the Universe, the Universe is extremely vast, at best in his current state he’s covered 1% and even that I find suspect

4: Why even mobilize troops or make other reactors if 1 Grand Star Reactor can remake the universe?, just gather all your recourses into one place and reset the universe, if it’s all going there’s no reason to conquer what’s already there, at best your giving Mario a path to your base by creating multiple Grand Star factories that he could go to, put them all at the center so he can’t get them

 

[The_Smashor]

And about hax you have to be fair for all verses then. Mario characters change what they lead with all the time just like plenty of other game characters, hell, just characters in general.

Kirby gets a new ability in one game and suddenly he always has led and will continue to lead with that ability.

It's a weird erroneous zone IMO.

Kirby's considered to lead with Friend Heart since there hasn't been a game after Star Allies yet IIRC.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

He has the power to traverse and cross the universe. "Expanding the empire" that's already stationed in places like the edge of the universe is simply not logical unless he created a new one to then expand into again.

Queen Bee had her kingdom frequently attacked? Last I checked anyways.

Ah yes, must downgrade all fictional characters because they can't portray the true vastness of the universe.

Bowser had a grand plan which was the Grand Star thing IIRC. Why utilise the Grand Stars for generating dark matter and galaxies as shown in the names of the levels if his true goal was to... not even use them at all??? We saw that the Grand Star being plucked from the Reactor literally caused a Uni+ event so why is it being used to create a new universe somehow more unbelievable than these roundabout assumptions you're trying to make to explain it as something it clearly is not? Everything goes against the assumption it's just him wanting to expand the empire and rule. The English parallel, which you didn't acknowledge, yet again states a creation feat, further supporting that line in Japanese meaning creation along with all the other evidence in support. You literally have nothing but your own beliefs here.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Kirby's considered to lead with Friend Heart since there hasn't been a game after Star Allies yet IIRC.

then Mario leads with possession cause Odyssey is the most recent entry that ain't a remake lol

Like I said, we should be fair.

 

[The_Smashor]

then Mario leads with possession cause Odyssey is the most recent entry that ain't a remake lol

Like I said, we should be fair.

Cappy's optional equipment while the Friend Heart is just an ability KIrby has forever now as far as we know.

 

[DragonLord]

One more note from my translator friend: Apparently one can also translate the line as “My New Universe Core”

He has the power to traverse and cross the universe. "Expanding the empire" that's already stationed in places like the edge of the universe is simply not logical unless he created a new one to then expand into again.

he means expanding his forces as in making more soldiers and weapons, using the Grand Stars Energy and a Dyson Sphere to power his civilization, besides, like I said, the universe is vast, we also don’t really know if all of his troops have the same power, it takes Rosalina’s ship multiple grand starts to travel through the Universe meanwhile most of Bowsers forces have 1

Queen Bee had her kingdom frequently attacked?

But she wasn’t defeated, seemingly she can fight back and still has her rule, showing that Bowser did not have the outright power to conquer every planet

Ah yes, must downgrade all fictional characters because they can't portray the true vastness of the universe.

Your evidence for Bowser already ruling the Universe/already capable of doing it is that he already had troops around the universe, however from what I’ve seen there’s not much implying he has anything more then what’s shown, and what’s shown is not near enough of the entire Universe

Bowser had a grand plan which was the Grand Star thing IIRC. Why utilise the Grand Stars for generating dark matter and galaxies as shown in the names of the levels if hus true goal was to... not even use them at all???

That’s a question both interpretations have really, why use so many Grand Stars on machines that he won’t need to use ultimately since he’s just gonna Expand his forces/make the universe boom, makes even less sense in the Universe Boom one because if you say he’s going to use them to travel his new universe: then why are they moving throughout the universe?, just make them wait till the Universe Boom happens and then mobilize them, Mario can’t do anything about it since the Grand Stars are too far away for him to get

The English parallel, which you didn't acknowledge, yet again states a creation feat,

I didn’t mention it because it’s irrelevant, if it’s not in the japanese text and there’s no indication of it from what I’ve been told, then it’s simply the English one being wrong for some reason

You literally have nothing but your own beliefs here.

This is always thrown around but I never get an answer as to why your arguments aren’t also just belief, this doesn’t really help your argument, at best you just look like your throwing insults rather then actually debating the points

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Because I have evidence from the game supporting me? You just "critique" evidence and bring up randon stuff to nitpick while offering explanations that require MANY more assumptions than my own when mine have support backing them.

Creation is supported. You've literally done the same thing of arguing intent behind translations that I'm using to show they intended the "new universe" to be a creation feat. Grand Stars also literally HAVE creation as a power and that's what Bowser used them to do. WHY would he then not be referring to creating something despite his previous Reactors working to do that very same thing?

Your "hypothesis" it's expanding his troops and reach is not supported because, again, he already had that power. Stated by Rosalina. Don't think you understand how much her word means. She's THE most credible source. Both English AND Japanese say the Power Stars plural helped the enemy discover the means to cross the universe. It wasn't just the Grand Stars. That argument of "oh but Rosalina needed more Grand Stars" doesn't hold up because she also required a set number of Power Stars which Bowser stole and he and his troops used.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

he means expanding his forces as in making more soldiers and weapons, using the Grand Stars Energy and a Dyson Sphere to power his civilization, besides, like I said, the universe is vast, we also don’t really know if all of his troops have the same power, it takes Rosalina’s ship multiple grand starts to travel through the Universe meanwhile most of Bowsers forces have 1

Also, please tell me exactly where you're getting all of this from, "will become the core of my new universe"

Where is that specific interpretation supported? Really. Show me. I reallllly would like that evidence, because as far as I can tell It's entirely baseless.

 

[DragonLord]

offering explanations that require MANY more assumptions than my own when mine have support backing them.

Explain the assumptions then, don’t just throw out “your arguments are from belief” and “the game supports me”, actually debate the points and why they don’t work

WHY would he then not be referring to creating something despite his previous Reactors working to do that very same thing?

He can create something, but it’s not inherently a Universe going by what these are saying, “expanding my army” is also creation, creation of new forces land energy etc, in fact if it’s creating anything it’s Galaxies, because… it’s Bowser’s Galaxy Reactor

he already had that power. Stated by Rosalina.

Rosalina is right, Bowser does have the power to expand his troops because… he already had the Grand Star at the start of the game and is about to do it, like if someone says “with 1 Billion Dollars, DragonLord has the power to build the Biggest building”, they’d be right, that would still require me to like, actually build it, or “give everyone the ability to travel the stars” they (may) also be right, that would still require me building all the ships

Also, please tell me exactly where you're getting all of this from, "will become the core of my new universe"

he says right after the Core of the Universe thing, he’s going to Build and empire that will spread across the universe like a big bang

https://media.**********.net/attachments/854382559806488666/854394893044678716/unknown.png
https://media.**********.net/attachments/854382559806488666/854389086563074048/unknown.png
really, you’d think he’d say “after I recreate the universe, I’ll build a Empire”, instead he attributes the Reactors power as being how he will create this empire, really all he calls the place is just the core of his universe (aka, the core of his empire which will rule the entire universe)

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Rosalina never said a single Grand Star can do all of that, and that's all Bowser had on him. That Grand Star you rescue is canonically the last one and one Rosalina doesn't even need also. He wouldn't be able to cross the universe and expand his troops with just that because Galaxy 2 shows they can only cap at going to the next World. Hell, even the first Galaxy has the first Grand Star you rescue only offer a sliver of the necessary power needed to travel to a single galaxy.

This "the Grand Star was needed for expanding troops across the universe" interpretation simply does not work

 

[DragonLord]

He wouldn't be able to cross the universe and expand his troops with just that because Galaxy 2 shows they can only cap at going to the next World. Hell, even the first Galaxy has the first Grand Star you rescue only offer a sliver of the necessary power needed to travel to a single galaxy.

You know, that’s a odd thing in itself, so under the universe boom assumption, the Grand Star has energy to have the range and destructive/creation ap in it’s abilities to destroy the entire universe and all of it’s Space-time, but not enough energy to reach other worlds in that universe?, and seemingly, all the other Grand Star powered machines seem to travel the universe just fine, and also well, create stuff like you know “Bowser’s Galaxy Generator” honestly seems like the Comet Observatory and Starship Mario aren’t using it effectively lol

 

[liluzivert]

I think we should just ignore DragonLord. Everytime he comes on a Mario thread, he just nitpicks things to no end and assumes far more than what is actually supported. He's not helping the conversation at all at this point and his logic could be used to downgrade most of the site.

 

[DragonLord]

I think we should just ignore DragonLord. Everytime he comes on a Mario thread, he just nitpicks things to no end and assumes far more than what is actually supported. He's not helping the conversation at all at this point and his logic could be used to downgrade most of the site.

If I annoy you that much just report me, because I ain’t stopping

also *She

 

[Foxthefox1000]

To put it bluntly, Bowser needed the Grand Stars only for fuel. Fuel needed to power bosses and machinery so that they are capable of creation and also weapons of destruction. You even acknowledge they have creation feats.

They CAN be used for space travel, but a single Power Star and/or Grand Star doesn't have the necessary range to do what you are trying to argue is a possible interpretation of what Bowser intended to use it for.

Meanwhile, we have the English translation interpreting a creation feat from that line, what Grand Star's main uses were to Bowser in Galaxy 1, the Prima Guide supporting this, and a Uni+ feat being performed from a Reactor that had sucked on a Grand Star for fuel. Hell, the official websites and guides and even mission names in the Galaxy games constantly state how Bowser is a threat to the universe. A mission is even called "Fate of the Universe"

There should be no logical reason not to think he was planning on creating a new universe using the Grand Star according to the Japanese text and the English Guide. There's just too much going for it.

 

[liluzivert]

If I annoy you that much just report me, because I ain’t stopping

also *She

oh no i don't need to report you. we just won't listen to what you say.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

You know, that’s a odd thing in itself, so under the universe boom assumption, the Grand Star has energy to have the range and destructive/creation ap in it’s abilities to destroy the entire universe and all of it’s Space-time, but not enough energy to reach other worlds in that universe?, and seemingly, all the other Grand Star powered machines seem to travel the universe just fine, and also well, create stuff like you know “Bowser’s Galaxy Generator” honestly seems like the Comet Observatory and Starship Mario aren’t using it effectively lol

Creation =/= Teleportation/Travel

You can create/destroy a universe but not have the ability to instantly traverse it

 

[DragonLord]

They CAN be used for space travel, but a single Power Star and/or Grand Star doesn't have the necessary range to do what you are trying to argue is a possible interpretation of what Bowser intended to use it for.

If they don’t have the means to travel space, how did the machines that are in different worlds that the observatory cannot go to without multiple grand stars get there in the first place

You can create/destroy a universe but not have the ability to instantly traverse it

But logically a Uni+ Destroying Blast would need to travel throughout the universe no?, if it can power that type of range I find it odd it can’t travel with it’s energy ether

oh no i don't need to report you. we just won't listen to what you say.

That basically feels like what you do anyway so shrug guess I can’t stop you

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I also failed to mention the agreed upon Power Stars of last thread are canonically lesser counterparts to Grand Stars with their own Uni+ Creation feats.

So it makes even less sense to assume anything other than creation being intended.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

The machines got there because the enemies have the Power Stars BEFORE you come decimate them and swipe the Stars away.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

To play Devil's Advocate though and because I like chaos, has anyone checked the reset feat again?

If you look closely at the background on full brightness, there appears to be untouched space with stars still hanging around while the universal reset is going on. Isn't that odd?

 

[DragonLord]

The machines got there because the enemies have the Power Stars BEFORE you come decimate them and swipe the Stars away.

But seemingly not every power star is being allocated into one machine, it’s being spread between many different ones, of which one machine (the observatory) needs nearly all of them to move to where Bowser is, assuming that Rosalina is using the stars to there maximum results, Bowser would only be Able to make 1 ship not tons

plus, there are just ships that aren’t seemingly powered by anything like the airships or hell the Toad ships that somehow get to further places then the observatory can

 

[DragonLord]

You know I just realized, literally in the intro, Kamek, who is not powered by any stars to my knowledge, teleports Peaches Castle to the center of the universe

 

[DaReaperMan]

Kamek is a better wizard then Bowser, of course he can dew dat

 

[DragonLord]

Kamek is a better wizard then Bowser, of course he can dew dat

I mean, assuming that’s true, that would still be in Bowser’s power because he’s under his control

unless I just got wooshed

 

[TMaakkonen]

I was brainstorming this and realized something. Missing the point, missing the forest from the trees. It was so obvious.

Now, this is a compromise, a crazy one, but hopefully one that won’t be too bad.

We can 100% remove any even vague Uni+ supports like Galaxy 1 ending Prima Guide, Vague enemy statements, weird stuff from reviews. Anything even slightly vague.

Because we have Grand Star.

Like, Grand Star are confirmed feat? There is nothing wrong with them? Then boom. That’s enough.

I am a man of my word what I said earlier. Even if there is only 1 feat supporting the tier, as long as its not contradicted, its more than fine. We don’t need to overcomplicate things.

What Fox said while back: “we need to find more evidence”. What? Why? Grand Stars are solid evidence. There is no need to waste time to find more.

I’ll be honest, I really hated most of Uni+ evidence. Weird statements from bosses? Literally a line from a review?

Garbage. Absolute garbage.

If those were ok, why wouldn’t literally 4 to 6 stories and final bosses be more valid? NSMB as a series is more valid than a ******* review.

But there is nothing wrong with Grand Stars.

And so, if every contradiction in Story and cutscenes are confirmed to be PIS and or gameplay mechanics, there is nothing wrong with Grand Stars only?

If anything, isn’t this safer? Apparently, some here are looking at translations from different languages. That can be potentially a weak link. All of these vague things can be weak links.

Hell, I forgot about Grand Stars cause people were so eager to push absolutely bad evidence, I couldn’t think about them.

So, this a fair solution.

Every even vague thing can be removed because Grand Stars alone grand the Low 2-C rating.

This is just trimming the fat. A bloated mess isn’t better. Simplicity is clear.

Even Black Jewel could be in theory be cut from Wario, because he’d still scale to Grand Star. But since that one is better than others, Grand Stars & Black Jewel can be kept.

Removing reference to vague things can be removed and should be and the Tiering on Mario cast wouldn't even need to change after all.

 

[liluzivert]

We can 100% remove any even vague Uni+ supports like Galaxy 1 ending Prima Guide, Vague enemy statements, weird stuff from reviews. Anything even slightly vague.

It's "vague" because you believe it is. To everyone else it's right in their face. Maybe just admit you don't have a good reason to keep Mario from the tier at this point.

I am a man of my word what I said earlier. Even if there is only 1 feat supporting the tier, as long as its not contradicted, its more than fine. We don’t need to overcomplicate things.

What? Why would 1 feat support the tier? The whole reason why it's there is consistent showings.

I’ll be honest, I really hated most of Uni+ evidence. Weird statements from bosses? Literally a line from a review?

Garbage. Absolute garbage.

We went over why the statements make sense. Explain how they could not possibly make sense.

Not to mention this "durr the guides aren't reliable" bullshit gotta stop. Yall basically just want every source and feat to come from the Japanese game because "we don't know how it was translated" complaints over and over and over. Hell some Japanese sources might have to just not be used either because "well it could've been a 3rd party". I'll go even further and say we might as well not use evidence from any game, because we have no evidence as to which dialogue is reliable or not. More stuff that could be used to downgrade even more verses. It's accepted from the company who made the game, if you have proof that it's not reliable, then show us instead of whining about what ifs.

If those were ok, why wouldn’t literally 4 to 6 stories and final bosses be more valid? NSMB as a series is more valid than a ******* review.

Wow, it's almost like those final bosses is just Mario fighting Bowser, the same guy he scales to. It's like nothing was ever debunked...

Hell, I forgot about Grand Stars cause people were so eager to push absolutely bad evidence, I couldn’t think about them.

How is it bad? We just went over this.

Removing reference to vague things can be removed and should be and the Tiering on Mario cast wouldn't even need to change after all.

Yeah... that's not gonna happen and the tier will stay the same.