Genshin Impact Tier Revision

[Solacis]

Very quick CRT for formality's sake.

Feat is here. Calc is here. Yield: 2.04 Gigatons, Large Mountain level / High 7-A.
Edit: Major miscalculation. Definitely my bad not checking hard enough after RatherClueless pointed it out. Anywho, new yield: 2.04 Megatons, Small City level / Low 7-B.

Extra valid since black clouds being created by Razor's teacher Lisa are directly referenced in voicelines (see: "About Lisa").

Scales to practically everyone. High-tiers like the Traveler, Jean and Childe scale up via scaling chain. Noteworthy low-tiers like Bennett and Fischl backscale via comparison to Amber, who only recently became a somewhat noteworthy combatant yet assisted Razor (the one performing the feat) in the fight with Andrius in his Story Quest.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Am I the only one looking at this animation and thinking it’s BS?

 

[RatherClueless]

Am I the only one looking at this animation and thinking it’s BS?

nope

 

[Cyberblader90]

seeing the voice line is enough to convince me its legit.
Agree on the revision

 

[RatherClueless]

1. The calc still has an issue. Pls convert "g" to "kg"
2. The feat is self contradictory when it comes to scaling if they can use the ap of that storm in an attack, why create the storm in the first place?
3. The skill description says the chant is a summoning, not a creation
4. razor only says that lisas lightning makes the sky dark, not that she can create storms
5. Dvalin (one of the strongest beings in the verse) needed support from the Abyss-Order to create a storm of similar proportion and lost that ability after the support was cut off
6. Collei, a character from the manga, who was capable of punching through Kaeya's ice, was terrified of falling to her death when gliding with Amber
7. This would mean that regular people and even children would backscale to this
8. We would have inconsistent scaling chains, like:
Main Cast < Venti < Dvalin < Storm feat = Random Character =< Main Cast <<< Adepti (capable of wrecking an entire city, filled with several people from the main cast) <<< All Adepti and Main Cast working together < Adepti using weapons to enhance their power <<<<<< corrupted God < Jade Chamber explosion < same Storm feat.
9. Keqing tried to destroy her vision by dropping it from high places or running mine carts over it, which makes no sense if she was even close to this strong.
10. A character named Beidou has many exaggerated feats, which are then hyperbolically described as "sea splitting". Even if we assumed she split the entire ocean, all 40k km around the globe and created a 10m wide trench, it would still be less than 1/10th of this storm feat, even after correcting it for the conversion issue.
11. Jean and Amber in the manga, even when working together and using a pyro slime explosive barrel only created an explosion within the lower tier 8 range
12. Alice, one of the most destructive characters in the verse, would need extensive preperation to get anything even close to a mountain level feat
13. The Millelith (who are just regular humans) are capable of fighting against Ruin Guards, which the traveler considers dangerous
14. How does it make any sense that Razor is scared mindless of one of Lisa's abilities, when he can casually do the same thing?
15. Albedo is scared he might destroy Mondstadt one day, which is considered a great feat. Destroying all of Mondstadt, even in one go, even if we take the manga size, would not surpass Low 7-C, unless we assume he vaporizes everything. He however makes it sound like it would be destroyed bit by bit and not everything at once.
16. Even if this feat ends up being valid, keep im mind that Lisa has this quote about her "She is said to have been the most talented sorceress to study at the Sumeru Academia in the last two centuries.", so not everyone should just randomly scale to this at all.

These are just some reasons off the top of my head for why this is whack

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Lisa lightning makes the sky black. She is strong. She is scary.

This? Unless I’m missing something Lisa doesn’t hasn’t shown anything on that scale. Her abilities are all localized around her.

And if Razor can do the same why is he afraid of her for the same thing?

 

[Solacis]

This? Unless I’m missing something Lisa doesn’t hasn’t shown anything on that scale. Her abilities are all localized around her.

And if Razor can do the same why is he afraid of her for the same thing?

Lisa's charged E has an identical effect of creating black clouds in the sky around her. Her being able to do so is what Razor uses to emphasize her strength. Her being scary isn't necessarily tied to said strength, especially since she's his teacher and she'd hardly ever actually want to hurt him. Her being scary is just a general fact about Lisa, as we learned from her story quest.

 

[RatherClueless]

If in that quote, her being strong and scary wasn't related to her lightning, which was mentioned right before that, it would mean that Razor is even more of an incoherent mess than even Qiqi, which would be quite funny.

 

[Solacis]

If in that quote, her being strong and scary wasn't related to her lightning, which was mentioned right before that, it would mean that Razor is even more of an incoherent mess than even Qiqi, which would be quite funny.

Do try to be productive on a CRT. Qiqi is a half-braindead child. Razor is barely literate. I don't see how this is out of character for him, nor do I see how it's entirely relevant.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

It is productive.

The latter two very blatantly meant to set the first sentence as someting crazy.

The clouds are not at all affected in the background, and as said above storm creation is seen as a massive feat and is notably hard to achieve.

And as said above, the calc is wrong as well, it would be Low 7-B ...if it were condensation, but somming is not that.

 

[RatherClueless]

Do try to be productive on a CRT. Qiqi is a half-braindead child. Razor is barely literate. I don't see how this is out of character for him, nor do I see how it's entirely relevant.

There is a difference between "being straight up senile and making no sense" and " being bad at expressing yourself". Razor falls into the second category, so yes, it is very out of character for him to just randomly mumble down random, unrelated Lisa facts, which just so happen to seem very related.

 

[RatherClueless]

17. Primo Geovishaps and the Geovishap Overlord were imprisoned underground. A regular earthquake opened up the cave they were imprisoned in. Said earthquake would be assumed to be around 8-A (what is needed to cause an earthslide) and the Geovishaps would scale way below this. At the same time they are considered incredibly powerful

 

[Solacis]

1. The calc still has an issue. Pls convert "g" to "kg"

That's a minor unit error that has no effect on the yield of the calc. Nevertheless, edited. Edited again, since it was a bigger issue than I thought upon relooking. This is totally valid.

2. The feat is self contradictory when it comes to scaling if they can use the ap of that storm in an attack, why create the storm in the first place?

Literally doesn't matter. Wiki standards say it's valid since if the energy source - the user's Vision - was used to create the clouds in the calc, then it'd stand to reason that said energy can be put into an attack. We've been over this on the Discussion Thread.

3. The skill description says the chant is a summoning, not a creation

Summoning implies movement. Moving that volume of clouds would mean using KE, which would only make the overall yield enormously higher than 2.04 Megatons, which I doubt you're going for.

4. razor only says that lisas lightning makes the sky dark, not that she can create storms

This is entirely semantical and you know it. What else would "making the sky dark" imply considering the context? Making it night - meaning she's moving the Sun?

5. Dvalin (one of the strongest beings in the verse) needed support from the Abyss-Order to create a storm of similar proportion and lost that ability after the support was cut off

Dvalin is hardly one of the strongest in the verse. Durin and Venti would both be stomped by Osial, considering the former is equal to the latter, who'd already been weakened considerably from his prime by the time of their battle. Then there's Morax, who'd decisively defeat Osial, and then there's the other Archons who didn't participate in the Archon War and we thus have no idea of their strength in relation to Morax.

The Abyss Order buffs being needed are clear PIS considering Dvalin created an even bigger storm during his boss battle without their help. A storm with winds strong enough to collapse massive stone structures in the span of minutes whereas his earlier storm barely damaged Mondstadt's infrastructure over the course of several hours.

6. Collei, a character from the manga, who was capable of punching through Kaeya's ice, was terrified of falling to her death when gliding with Amber
7. This would mean that regular people and even children would backscale to this

Fall damage? Really? Are you going to argue that Genshin is sub-Wall level now? This is obvious CIS/PIS.

8. We would have inconsistent scaling chains, like:
Main Cast < Venti < Dvalin < Storm feat = Random Character =< Main Cast <<< Adepti (capable of wrecking an entire city, filled with several people from the main cast) <<< All Adepti and Main Cast working together < Adepti using weapons to enhance their power <<<<<< corrupted God < Jade Chamber explosion < same Storm feat.

Scaling chains come second in priority to direct feats. Not to mention that this chain is entirely a product of just your thoughts on the matter, meaning it's not even an agreed upon chain and invalid from the get-go.

9. Keqing tried to destroy her vision by dropping it from high places or running mine carts over it, which makes no sense if she was even close to this strong.

Same as my response to points 6 and 7.

10. A character named Beidou has many exaggerated feats, which are then hyperbolically described as "sea splitting". Even if we assumed she split the entire ocean, all 40k km around the globe and created a 10m wide trench, it would still be less than 1/10th of this storm feat, even after correcting it for the conversion issue.

I've talked about this on the Discussion Thread. We don't know how exaggerated said tales are, and so we have no idea how much they conflict with reality.

11. Jean and Amber in the manga, even when working together and using a pyro slime explosive barrel only created an explosion within the lower tier 8 range

The depiction of explosions are rarely ever accurate. Not to mention that with how the explosion was performed using Pyro slimes, which are magical by nature, we can hardly judge their explosive potency by real world standards.

12. Alice, one of the most destructive characters in the verse, would need extensive preperation to get anything even close to a mountain level feat

We know that Alice could bring down mountains with her bombs. We don't know how many, or anything regarding how much preparation it actually takes. At least, as far as I know. Feel free to correct me.

13. The Millelith (who are just regular humans) are capable of fighting against Ruin Guards, which the traveler considers dangerous

The Millelith are the Liyue equivalent of the Knights of Favonius. We know for a fact that all physical feats in the verse are independent of Visions and achieved through training, so it's hardly impossible to believe that enough Millelith soldiers together could take down a Ruin Guard.

14. How does it make any sense that Razor is scared mindless of one of Lisa's abilities, when he can casually do the same thing?

Again, his fear of her is not necessarily a result of her power. Razor was raised by Andrius of all people, and like you said, him being able to do the same would mean he isn't so scared of her strength, but rather her personality, which is a common feeling shared by many people who know her, even people as powerful as Kaeya.

15. Albedo is scared he might destroy Mondstadt one day, which is considered a great feat. Destroying all of Mondstadt, even in one go, even if we take the manga size, would not surpass Low 7-C, unless we assume he vaporizes everything. He however makes it sound like it would be destroyed bit by bit and not everything at once.

How is it framed as being a great feat? Albedo is scared of losing control and destroying his home and accidentally killing the people he loves. Why take his statement as him being afraid of his power itself rather than the result of it being unleashed? And even if we were to take it your way, his quote is: "If one day I lose control, destroy Mondstadt, destroy everything..." It's clear that Mondstadt would only be a minute portion of what he'd end up destroying.

16. Even if this feat ends up being valid, keep im mind that Lisa has this quote about her "She is said to have been the most talented sorceress to study at the Sumeru Academia in the last two centuries.", so not everyone should just randomly scale to this at all.

Except the feat is performed by Razor, who, while considered talented, isn't that far above other Vision wielders, especially when you take into account that people like Sucrose, who doesn't focus on combat at all, could assist the Traveler and Albedo against the Resurgent Cryo Regisvine.

 

[Solacis]

17. Primo Geovishaps and the Geovishap Overlord were imprisoned underground. A regular earthquake opened up the cave they were imprisoned in. Said earthquake would be assumed to be around 8-A (what is needed to cause an earthslide) and the Geovishaps would scale way below this. At the same time they are considered incredibly powerful

Only the Geovishap Overlord that fought Morax was imprisoned, and it was made clear that it wasn't just buried, but sealed very thoroughly by the combined efforts of Morax and the Adepti. The Geovishaps that followed it were stated to have fled underground to await their lord's return, not buried and locked away by rock.

 

[Solacis]

It is productive.

The latter two very blatantly meant to set the first sentence as someting crazy.

The clouds are not at all affected in the background, and as said above storm creation is seen as a massive feat and is notably hard to achieve.

And as said above, the calc is wrong as well, it would be Low 7-B ...if it were condensation, but somming is not that.

The manner in which the idea was put forward was hardly productive. I'm all for mutual respect between users in discussions, but RatherClueless has a history of being noticeably rude on the Discussion Thread. I'd prefer not to deal with it.

What do you mean they weren't affected? The black clouds were very clearly shown to have been created. Additionally, that visual effect was very clearly intended by the developers, since only Razor and Lisa have them as part of their attack animations.

What part of the calc is wrong? The only thing wrong that was pointed out was mistakenly writing kilograms instead of grams as a unit for one of the formulas, but the value is as it was meant to be used. Ultimately nothing more than a typo. Nevermind.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I mean from what I've gathered, converting grams to kg or whatever would make this feat Baseline Low 7-B if not a bit lower or higher.

Regardless, it's best you message Aubin and Uvarik. Maybe Medeus as well.

 

[Solacis]

Right, okay. I just checked again and realized what was meant. Definitely my bad, whoops.

Anyway, fixed and edited the OP.

If anything, it's more believable now since a lot of the points RatherClueless brought up, such as Alice needing prep to level a mountain, doesn't apply anymore.

 

[RatherClueless]

That's a minor unit error that has no effect on the yield of the calc. Nevertheless, edited.

1000x is minor? ok then...

Literally doesn't matter. Wiki standards say it's valid since if the energy source - the user's Vision - was used to create the clouds in the calc, then it'd stand to reason that said energy can be put into an attack. We've been over this on the Discussion Thread.

1. That's NOT the issue. If you keep dodging the problem, I keep bringing it up
2. Even non vision users can use magic and alchemy, so that's not even true

Summoning implies movement. Moving that volume of clouds would mean using KE, which would only make the overall yield enormously higher than 2.04 Gigatons, which I doubt you're going for.

We dont give AP for summoning in general

This is entirely semantical and you know it. What else would "making the sky dark" imply considering the context? Making it night - meaning she's moving the Sun?

First of all, it is less semantically than "Razor didn't mean to say her lightning is scary.". Secondly we see several electro users darken their surroundings when using their lightning, even without creating clouds.

Dvalin is hardly one of the strongest in the verse. Durin and Venti would both be stomped by Osial, considering the former is equal to the latter, who'd already been weakened considerably from his prime by the time of their battle. Then there's Morax, who'd decisively defeat Osial, and then there's the other Archons who didn't participate in the Archon War and we thus have no idea of their strength in relation to Morax.

First of all, Osial wasn't even a god anymore and increadibly weakened when you fight him. And yeah, no surprise the strongest Archon would defeat a weakened god who he defeated at his prime. How does this change that Dvalin >>>> main cast in the slightest?

The Abyss Order buffs being needed are clear PIS considering Dvalin created an even bigger storm during his boss battle without their help. A storm with winds strong enough to collapse massive stone structures in the span of minutes whereas his earlier storm barely damaged Mondstadt's infrastructure over the course of several hours.

1. The storm was smaller and less impressive. Do the maths if you don't believe me
2. That is assuming that that was a proper storm . . . which it wasn't. The objects within it are floating without the storm, since there are several large structures just slowly floating across the center of the storm, where there are no winds at all. Another thing is that the smaller storm Dvalin makes pushes the characters around more than the massive storm in the back . . . which makes no sense at all

Fall damage? Really? Are you going to argue that Genshin is sub-Wall level now? This is obvious CIS/PIS.

Fall damage in a manga!? ok then, lul

Scaling chains come second in priority to direct feats. Not to mention that this chain is entirely a product of just your thoughts on the matter, meaning it's not even an agreed upon chain and invalid from the get-go.

Urgh... what? This is either from statements or what has been shown and not what "I think". Also, if a scaling chain contradicts a feat, then that's an issue. Period.

Same as my response to points 6 and 7.

Imagine having one feat and 100 things pointing towards it being whack, but instead of admitting it is whack, we just claim the entire verse is full of CIS/PIS and the authors have less authority than the animators over the strength of the verse. Ok.

I've talked about this on the Discussion Thread. We don't know how exaggerated said tales are, and so we have no idea how much they conflict with reality.

So you say her splitting the entire ocean in half is not only plausible but also less than what the exaggeration actually is? Btw, one of said exaggerations is that she "hits as hard as an iron maze, causing a sea monster to bleed", which is also very clearly meant to be >>> cutting the entire ocean in half, kek.

The depiction of explosions are rarely ever accurate. Not to mention that with how the explosion was performed using Pyro slimes, which are magical by nature, we can hardly judge their explosive potency by real world standards.

So it's fine to calculate the magical storm and assume it is 100% created with accurate physics, but it isn't to assume the ame for the pyro slime . . . mkay. That aside, the ground is barely even scorched.

We know that Alice could bring down mountains with her bombs. We don't know how many, or anything regarding how much preparation it actually takes. At least, as far as I know. Feel free to correct me.

Several strategically placed bombs. That's 3 or more bombs placed in spots that would cause large cliffs to crumble under their weight. She isn't incinerating them or anything like that.

The Millelith are the Liyue equivalent of the Knights of Favonius. We know for a fact that all physical feats in the verse are independent of Visions and achieved through training, so it's hardly impossible to believe that enough Millelith soldiers together could take down a Ruin Guard.

No no, not together, but alone. That aside, this allows for literally everyone, even children, to scale to be tier 7, which makes no sense.

Again, his fear of her is not necessarily a result of her power. Razor was raised by Andrius of all people, and like you said, him being able to do the same would mean he isn't so scared of her strength, but rather her personality, which is a common feeling shared by many people who know her, even people as powerful as Kaeya.

To quote something someone (wont say who unless they want me to) said to me on discord: "It would be kind of like taking quotes along the lines of "you barely broke mach speed. You aren't even in the top ten speedsters." and saying that the two sentences are unrelated, and "top ten" refers to popularity."

How is it framed as being a great feat? Albedo is scared of losing control and destroying his home and accidentally killing the people he loves. Why take his statement as him being afraid of his power itself rather than the result of it being unleashed? And even if we were to take it your way, his quote is: "If one day I lose control, destroy Mondstadt, destroy everything..." It's clear that Mondstadt would only be a minute portion of what he'd end up destroying.

Ok, still not everything at once, since Albedo wanting the traveler to stop him wouldn't make any sense, if he was to simply yeetus deletus everything in an instant.

Except the feat is performed by Razor, who, while considered talented, isn't that far above other Vision wielders, especially when you take into account that people like Sucrose, who doesn't focus on combat at all, could assist the Traveler and Albedo against the Resurgent Cryo Regisvine.

He is above the traveler.

Only the Geovishap Overlord that fought Morax was imprisoned, and it was made clear that it wasn't just buried, but sealed very thoroughly by the combined efforts of Morax and the Adepti. The Geovishaps that followed it were stated to have fled underground to await their lord's return, not buried and locked away by rock.

That is just false. Pleas re-read the in game description. Thank you.

The manner in which the idea was put forward was hardly productive. I'm all for mutual respect between users in discussions, but RatherClueless has a history of being noticeably rude on the Discussion Thread. I'd prefer not to deal with it.

I am not rude, I am frustrated with everyone just dancing around my arguments and strawmanning me and giving the most whack explanations as to why feats are legit. That aside, non of what I said in that quote was even close to being rude, if anything, it was the opposite. I was adding a bit of humor to my argument. And what happened? The argument got ignored yet again, simply being declared as "irrelevant" without adressing the actual issue at hand.

What do you mean they weren't affected? The black clouds were very clearly shown to have been created. Additionally, that visual effect was very clearly intended by the developers, since only Razor and Lisa have them as part of their attack animations.

1. They arent black but purple, kind of implying that it isn't a legit storm
2. He meant the regular clouds in the background, which arent affected at all by the newly appearing clouds

If anything, it's more believable now since a lot of the points RatherClueless brought up, such as Alice needing prep to level a mountain, doesn't apply anymore.

Blowing up all of Starsnatch Cliff with prep time and several explosives, each being more powerful than anything Klee has, who is considered to be one of the strongest characters in Mondstadt, still very much matters.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I think we first should make sure the calc and feat itself is completely legitimate as there seems to be some questioning its legitimacy. Then discussions on scaling can continue.

@DemonGodMitchAubin @Ugarik @DarkDragonMedeus @Damage3245

You guys would be quite helpful here.

 

[RatherClueless]

I think we first should make sure the calc and feat itself is completely legitimate as there seems to be some questioning its legitimacy. Then discussions on scaling can continue.

@DemonGodMitchAubin @Ugarik @DarkDragonMedeus @Damage3245

You guys would be quite helpful here.

The issue is not whether the math is correct >. > No one ever disputed that. It's legitamacy is more so an in verse issue.
The "physics" and "math" issue behind storm feats and our standards on it is another thread for another time.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

The first reply was saying the animation was BS which you agreed with. So if the animation is BS, then why would we have this discussion on the calc. If people are agreeing that the animation is BS, then no calc should be made behind it.

Also, on another note. Can we get a list of all available feats in the series and where they actually rate?

 

[RatherClueless]

The first reply was saying the animation was BS which you agreed with. So if the animation is BS, then why would we have this discussion on the calc. If people are agreeing that the animation is BS, then no calc should be made behind it.

It is bs. That's not a math issue. This falls under the same thing as many pokemon animations not being considered valid to use, even if we can calc them. It's a "does it make sense in verse" thing, not a "is the math correct" or "does it follow our standrds" issue.

Also, on another note. Can we get a list of all available feats in the series and where they actually rate?

When I find the time, I suppose I can do this. But I can tell you right now, that the storm feats are literally the best feats (that we can calculate) in the verse, whith the exception of maybe Venti's ambiguous mountain moving feat.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I mean, Pokemon is likely not the best example considering I am pretty sure we actually do end up using Pokemon animations iirc.

From our discussion, I was only aware of the few other Tier 7 feats done by other characters which, even if this is higher, would still be consistent with other feats in the verse. My priority here is seeing whether Tier 7 is consistent in this verse. Personally, even if it's a higher feat done by a lower tier character, if it's legitimate and consistently around the level of higher tiered characters (from what I know a lot of higher tiered character apparently have 7-C feats or a few lower feats with Venti's feat apparently being Tier 7 to Tier 6 or something?). I've made it clear in our discussion that I have no issues with anyone scaling to Razor's feat. However, at this point it depends on what everyone here decides for what to rate these characters on this site. So if you all choose to downgrade it, so be it. If not, so be it considering I still have other edits to do along with other irl stuff and so I don't have time to really go in depth here like I did in the discussion thread. So just giving my stance here and now.

 

[RatherClueless]

I mean, Pokemon is likely not the best example considering I am pretty sure we actually do end up using Pokemon animations iirc.

Several animations were denied, last time I checked. Even if not, it is literally the most "yeah, whatever, I guess that works" verse on the wiki.

From our discussion, I was only aware of the few other Tier 7 feats done by other characters which, even if this is higher, would still be consistent with other feats in the verse. My priority here is seeing whether Tier 7 is consistent in this verse. Personally, even if it's a higher feat done by a lower tier character, if it's legitimate and consistently around the level of higher tiered characters (from what I know a lot of higher tiered character apparently have 7-C feats or a few lower feats with Venti's feat apparently being Tier 7 to Tier 6 or something?). I've made it clear in our discussion that I have no issues with anyone scaling to Razor's feat. However, at this point it depends on what everyone here decides for what to rate these characters on this site.

Most feats are closer to tier 9 - 8 or are ambiguous, but still contradict tier 7 and higher or imply lower ratings. The only characters in the verse that have crazy feats like the ones we are discussing are either top tiers or literally gods and well, . . . Lisa and Razor, for some reason.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

If the recalculation was done right, then it should be good.

 

[RatherClueless]

bump

 

[Solacis]

If consistency is the problem, let's forget about the calc for a second and go through the list of AP feats we have, and compare them.
Below are the ones I can think of, so mention any that can be added.

God Feats:

• Barbatos used his winds to flatten the entire nation of Mondstadt, which geologically would have been similar to Liyue, which is highly mountainous.
• Barbatos lifted Pilos Peak, the tallest mountain in Teyvat, and threw it into the ocean to form Musk Reef.
• Guizhong created the Realm of Clouds, which contains a Sun.
• Osial, simply by reawakening, created storm clouds that extended to the horizon, and created tornadoes strong enough to form whirlpools large enough to reach the sky from the ocean.
• Morax created and threw stone spears to pin down Osial beneath the ocean. Those stone spears are the mountain spires that comprise Guyun Stone Forest.

Non-God Feats:

• Waster Greatsword "may be powerful enough to break apart mountains, if wielded with enough willpower".
• Prototype Rancour "shakes mountains at their foundations".
• Prototype Archaic levelled an entire bamboo forest in a single swing when first tested. Bamboo forests typically cover entire mountains, especially in China, which Liyue is based on and where the feat was performed, where said forests tend to be on the much larger end of the spectrum.
• Cloud Retainer (adeptus) created her own Abode, which are described as being realms created by Adepti that are no different from pocket dimensions, that contains a Moon and a highly mountainous structure.
  For reference, Ganyu who is considered an Adeptus, fought in the Archon War, and is regularly trained by both Xiao and Cloud Retainer, stated that the Liyue Traveler's power was comparable to herself. Similarly, the Liyue Qixing are implied to be comparable to the Adepti as well, and Ningguang was capable of recreating and improving upon the Guizhong Ballista, a weapon designed to assist Adepti in slaying gods.
• According to Madame Ping, Skybracer (adeptus) used his horns to prop up the entirety of Mt. Tianheng and prevent it from collapsing onto Liyue Harbor.
• Dainsleif states that Klee was the one who razed Stormbearer Mountains flat.

 

[RatherClueless]

God feats

I really don't care about those. They are fine. However, one should raise an eyebrow when the god feats (which are meant to be impressive) are around the same level as the feats of regular humans, no?

Stories about weapons

What matters is who wields the weapon. That aside, they are about as vague as Beidous hyperbolic descriptions, so by your own standards, they are invalid.

Adepti

They might not scale to the gods, but they still vastly outclass the rest of the cast. About what Ganyu said, she is talking about the travelers hidden power, which, I mean, yeah, makes sense. That aside, funiliy enough you can't even do Ganyu's story quest with the traveler until you get to Schneznaya, which should be the last country and be the traveler at max strength. Just a nitpick, but Ganyu doesn't train often at all. It wasn't even training for strength, but to "make her feel like an adeptus again", whatever that might mean.
Let's not pretend an Abode scales to . . . anything
He used the antlers as a wedge. That's neither AP nor lifting strength. Durability at best.
The Qixing aren't implied to be comparable at all. Cloud Retainer was confident that she can crush all of Liyue Harbour herself. All of the fighting against Osial was from the Adepti.

Klee

We know Klee is less destructive than Alice, who needs several bombs for starsnatch cliff. We know Klee's strongest bombs burst radius, so we know it would take lots and lots of bombs for her to cover the entire area. The mountains also still exist and show no signs of having been blown up recently, unlike the places Alice has stated to have blown up.

 

[Solacis]

How would Ganyu know about the Traveler's hidden power? I don't remember him mentioning it to anyone that he used to be comparable to gods. Heck I don't think even Paimon or Mona knows. And there's no indication that Ganyu could somehow sense his sealed powers, so by all rights she is referring to his current strength.

And Abodes most certainly scale since they are explicitly creation feats. This point is (to my knowledge) unquestionable without contending with wiki standards on pocket dimensions, and good luck with that.

It's possible that neither the Sun nor Moon inside aren't actually a Sun or Moon, since they are admittedly vague-looking. But nevertheless, that's why I mentioned their contents. The Realm of Clouds is entirely comprised of cumulus clouds and cloud-piercing mountains as far as the eye can see, and Cloud Retainer's Abode is comprised of massive ravines. Almost certainly not calcable, but the scale is obvious.

 

[RatherClueless]

I don't remember him mentioning it to anyone that he used to be comparable to gods.

The traveler also never showed off their capabilities to Ganyu either, so she wouldn't know either way. Best she ever witnissed was how the traveler beat up a bunch of fatuis. Paimon definetly knows.

unquestionable without contending with wiki standards on pocket dimensions, and good luck with that.

good luck making genshin mid tiers tier 4 then

Ah, a fake sun and moon, but everything else is legit, because, um, it wouldn't fit the narrative otherwise I suppose.

Also, maybe I should go and clean up pocket dimensions after finishing with cooling/cloud feats :v

 

[Solacis]

I get the feeling you didn't even look at said pocket dimensions in the first place, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt and just say you didn't realize what I meant.

The Sun and Moon inside are obscured by spiralling clouds, so they could reasonably be doubted in their legitimately being a Sun or Moon, as opposed to simply being a large light source of unknown nature. Everything else is clearly genuine, so I don't understand your condescending tone.

 

[Solacis]

Addressing the remaining relevant points.

1. That's NOT the issue. If you keep dodging the problem, I keep bringing it up
2. Even non vision users can use magic and alchemy, so that's not even true

Non-Vision users can only use alchemy and astrology, not magic, and the latter is by purchasing materials already imbued with elemental attributes to work with, not manipulating the elements directly. It is stated on several occasions that channeling elemental energy is flat-out impossible for humans without a Vision. Albedo, probably the smartest character we currently know, says this. Every researcher that doesn't have a Vision straight up says this. That's the entire reason why Timaeus created the Elemental Crucible in the first place, since elemental materials are impure and yet extremely expensive because most people can't just make them out of nothing.

I also don't see why this is relevant at all. The issue you brought up is that "if a character can channel the energy required to create a storm for an attack, why create the storm in the first place?" The answer is simple. It doesn't matter what the energy being channeled is used for. The fact that they have and can output enough energy to create the storm at all would mean that the same amount of energy can be used as an attack, because the energy itself comes from the same source, their Vision, their magical foci.

We dont give AP for summoning in general

What even makes you believe it's summoning, as in, "teleport here from somewhere else"-type summoning? The standard definition of "to summon" doesn't imply teleportation, which would need to be proven. Not to mention that you can clearly see in the feat that the clouds are moving, so if anything, it should have greater results via using Kinetic Energy as is most clearly shown.

First of all, it is less semantically than "Razor didn't mean to say her lightning is scary.". Secondly we see several electro users darken their surroundings when using their lightning, even without creating clouds.

You're missing the context. Other electro-users not making clouds doesn't do anything to invalidate the fact that Razor/Lisa can and did.

Razor's quote is specifically "Lisa lightning makes the sky black." He specifically says she blackens the sky, not just her surroundings. This statement combined with the clear visual of Lisa creating black clouds leaves the meaning clear: she "makes the sky black" because she makes black clouds. It cannot be any clearer than this.

First of all, Osial wasn't even a god anymore and increadibly weakened when you fight him. And yeah, no surprise the strongest Archon would defeat a weakened god who he defeated at his prime. How does this change that Dvalin >>>> main cast in the slightest?

Where did you get that Osial wasn't a god anymore? Everyone including the Adepti refers to him as a god, Zhongli implies he needed his Gnosis to beat him, and nothing implies that Osial was in any way weakened. It's hard to take your arguments seriously when half of them are genuinely noteworthy points and then you start claiming things that are flat-out wrong as facts.

The only thing I'm disproving here is your statement that Dvalin is one of the strongest beings in the verse and yet needed Abyss Order buffs to create the storm over Mondstadt, which I've already outed as PIS considering Dvalin made stronger storms without their help.

1. The storm was smaller and less impressive. Do the maths if you don't believe me
2. That is assuming that that was a proper storm . . . which it wasn't. The objects within it are floating without the storm, since there are several large structures just slowly floating across the center of the storm, where there are no winds at all. Another thing is that the smaller storm Dvalin makes pushes the characters around more than the massive storm in the back . . . which makes no sense at all

And yet the "less impressive storm" left no notable damage on Mondstadt despite lasting for several hours, whereas the "more impressive" one tore apart and collapsed the entire arena at the end of the battle. Those floating structures aren't across the center of the storm. Look again, they're outside the arena, where the winds are. The arena itself is in the eye of the storm, where there are no winds save for the ones Dvalin throws at the party directly.

Fall damage in a manga!? ok then, lul

4-B Mace Windu was afraid to fall from large heights. Low 2-C Phantom Thieves are afraid of falling from similar heights. Heights and falls are never consistent in powerful works of fiction. And I suppose since you didn't deny it, that you're actually arguing for Genshin Impact to be sub-Wall level? Because if you genuinely think fall damage matters, then that's what you're implying.

Urgh... what? This is either from statements or what has been shown and not what "I think". Also, if a scaling chain contradicts a feat, then that's an issue. Period.

Because interpretations of characters in comparison to one another can vary, and is never so clear-cut.

As an example, Adepti have no timeframe for their city-crushing, so that isn't a noteworthy feat. Not to mention, assuming that said city-crushing statement naturally includes every noteworthy combatant in the city is ridiculous. And if you want to use scaling chains, then remember that pre-Gnosis Venti defeated Decarabian, who effortlessly stomps living Andrius, who is comparable if not vastly superior to Prime Dvalin, and you're telling me that Venti needed help handling the whole Dvalin situation at all? This is why scaling chains are lower-priority compared to direct feats.

So you say her splitting the entire ocean in half is not only plausible but also less than what the exaggeration actually is? Btw, one of said exaggerations is that she "hits as hard as an iron maze, causing a sea monster to bleed", which is also very clearly meant to be >>> cutting the entire ocean in half, kek.

Right, because "causing a sea monster to bleed" is an exaggeration compared to "fighting for days on-end, before one-shotting THE sea monster by throwing her sword through all its heads at once at the break of dawn", which is what actually happened.

No no, not together, but alone. That aside, this allows for literally everyone, even children, to scale to be tier 7, which makes no sense.

Again, where are you getting this?

Ok, still not everything at once, since Albedo wanting the traveler to stop him wouldn't make any sense, if he was to simply yeetus deletus everything in an instant.

I asked what was framing that as a great feat of power, which you claimed it was. You didn't answer, by the way.

In the event that it is, in fact, not treated as a great feat of power, then Albedo hoping the Traveler could stop him would easily make sense, since that would imply that Albedo believes that the Traveler's full power would be able to stop him if he went on a rampage, and that he's not afraid of his own power, but the risk of his going on a rampage.

He is above the traveler.

By what comparison? They never fought, and the one time they were in a fight, they were on the same team. Razor blocked one attack from Andrius to the Traveler's blind spot and you consider him superior? Not taking into account that Razor was far more familiar with Andrius' abilities than the Traveler, who knew nothing about him?

That is just false. Pleas re-read the in game description. Thank you.

How about you read it?

Folktales hold that after the great "draconic calamity that led to the ruination of Tianqiu Valley, the overlord of the Geovishaps and Primo Geovishaps was imprisoned deep beneath the earth, and so too did they burrow into deep and unseen places, awaiting their chance to rise once more...

"the overlord of the Geovishaps and Primo Geovishaps was imprisoned deep beneath the earth" - only the Overlord was imprisoned. The "they" in "so too did they burrow" referred to the Geovishaps and Primo Geovishaps, who would then begin "awaiting their chance to rise once more".

I am not rude, I am frustrated with everyone just dancing around my arguments and strawmanning me and giving the most whack explanations as to why feats are legit. That aside, non of what I said in that quote was even close to being rude, if anything, it was the opposite. I was adding a bit of humor to my argument. And what happened? The argument got ignored yet again, simply being declared as "irrelevant" without adressing the actual issue at hand.

Your 'humor' comes off as condescension, and the fact that you haven't realized this despite plenty of people calling you out on it well before now, is the problem. Your 'humor' is dismissive of others' opinions, and isn't even limited to just your disagreement with the wiki standards. You have no right being frustrated with people not taking your arguments seriously when you don't exactly portray yourself as someone who takes anyone else seriously yourself.

Just in this thread:
"Please re-read the in game description. Thank you." Way to be sarcastic, not to mention confidently incorrect.
"kek" Wow, so much respect.

1. They arent black but purple, kind of implying that it isn't a legit storm

Purple lightning in dark clouds would certainly imply purple clouds. And color is not solid grounds to dispute legitimacy, because again, this is fiction. Suspension of disbelief is a concept.

2. He meant the regular clouds in the background, which arent affected at all by the newly appearing clouds

Expecting an open-world game to shift the environment in response to character actions to strictly adhere to scientific accuracy is the same as expecting Link in BOTW to shatter all of Hyrule every time he slams the ground, or hell, it's like expecting open-world games to have destructible environments by default. The amount of additional code would be way more than would be worth it, and actually affecting the environment would just lag the game for nothing more than a gimmick. Now if the animation were part of a cutscene, or originated from something like a TV show, then this point would be valid.

Blowing up all of Starsnatch Cliff with prep time and several explosives, each being more powerful than anything Klee has, who is considered to be one of the strongest characters in Mondstadt, still very much matters.

"Each being more powerful than anything Klee has" is another assumption. No doubt Alice is more powerful than Klee, and would definitely have stronger explosives, but her destruction of Starsnatch Cliff is her teaching Klee how to do the same, so it would've been pretty counter-productive to use explosives stronger than anything Klee has.

 

[RatherClueless]

Non-Vision users can only use alchemy and astrology, not magic, and the latter is by purchasing materials already imbued with elemental attributes to work with, not manipulating the elements directly. It is stated on several occasions that channeling elemental energy is flat-out impossible for humans without a Vision. Albedo, probably the smartest character we currently know, says this. Every researcher that doesn't have a Vision straight up says this. That's the entire reason why Timaeus created the Elemental Crucible in the first place, since elemental materials are impure and yet extremely expensive because most people can't just make them out of nothing.

Catalysts are also embued with elemental attributes and the Sumeru Academia teaches magic to "anyone" who wants to learn it. Astrologoy doesn't specifically require any materials. It is specifically about reading the stars after all, as we know from "All things astrological". Not even sure whether a vision helps at all with astrology, considering Mona didn't/doesn't even use her vision (for the longest time):
"This is not to say that possessing an external focus for elemental power is not useful.

Having power is always a good thing, but when compared to lofty "truth," "martial prowess" is such a pathetically small concept."

"Nonetheless, this item that serves no practical use in her hands is something that she treasures greatly."

The answer is simple. It doesn't matter what the energy being channeled is used for

How can you dodge the question this hard? Currently have the cloud/cooling thread ongoing anyways.

What even makes you believe it's summoning, as in, "teleport here from somewhere else"-type summoning? The standard definition of "to summon" doesn't imply teleportation, which would need to be proven.

I never said it's ""teleport here from somewhere else"-type summoning". Doesn't have to be either.

You're missing the context. Other electro-users not making clouds doesn't do anything to invalidate the fact that Razor/Lisa can and did.

Did I say that them not creating clouds invalidates anything?

Razor's quote is specifically "Lisa lightning makes the sky black." He specifically says she blackens the sky, not just her surroundings.

Let me rephrase. All electro characters can make the sky dark.

This statement combined with the clear visual of Lisa creating black clouds leaves the meaning clear: she "makes the sky black" because she makes black clouds. It cannot be any clearer than this.

Well, strictly speaking she makes weird purple clouds, but I guess that truly is just semantics.

Where did you get that Osial wasn't a god anymore? Everyone including the Adepti refers to him as a god, Zhongli implies he needed his Gnosis to beat him, and nothing implies that Osial was in any way weakened. It's hard to take your arguments seriously when half of them are genuinely noteworthy points and then you start claiming things that are flat-out wrong as facts.

Hmm, I was pretty sure there was a statement, that the snake thingy we see wasn't the Osial ZhongLi fought, but I guess I got it confused with Andrius. However, whether I got this right or wrong really doesn't matter to the point I made.

The only thing I'm disproving here is your statement that Dvalin is one of the strongest beings in the verse and yet needed Abyss Order buffs to create the storm over Mondstadt, which I've already outed as PIS considering Dvalin made stronger storms without their help.

You know, there being a handful of god tiers doesn't disprove Dvalin being one of the strongest in the verse. That's like saying that the 9th strongest person of all time isn't "one of the strongest people of all time", because there are nine people stronger than them.
Urgh, but wouldn't that storm be more so PIS (assuming it was actually stronger)? After all, stopping his buffs was one major part of the story, the storm later on wasn't. If it was just PIS, nothing we did throughout the Mondstadt storyline would make any sense. That's quite the claim you are making there.

Look again, they're outside the arena, where the winds are. The arena itself is in the eye of the storm, where there are no winds save for the ones Dvalin throws at the party directly.

Sure. I mean, I can only watch them emerge from one side and then veeeeery slowly travel to the other side.

4-B Mace Windu was afraid to fall from large heights.

Durability: Street Level

Low 2-C Phantom Thieves are afraid of falling from similar heights.

Now I am by no means a SMT expert, but maybe it's a bit whack to scale literally everything to the creation of a palace, including their durability.

Anyways, we shouldn't go and say "look, they did it, so it's fine if we do it too". That's setting some really bad standards.

And I suppose since you didn't deny it, that you're actually arguing for Genshin Impact to be sub-Wall level? Because if you genuinely think fall damage matters, then that's what you're implying.

Durability wise? Yes, they are sub wall level. Visions do grant protections, but their bodies are as squishy with a vision as they are without it.

Overall? Honestly, I'd rather argue for sub wall-level genshin than "every child in genshin hits like a nuke"

As an example, Adepti have no timeframe for their city-crushing, so that isn't a noteworthy feat.

To be fair, this one is by far the most assumption based one. We still have several statements of Adepti putting themselves above

And if you want to use scaling chains, then remember that pre-Gnosis Venti defeated Decarabian who effortlessly stomps living Andrius, who is comparable if not vastly superior to Prime Dvalin, and you're telling me that Venti needed help handling the whole Dvalin situation at all

1. Venti and an entire army.
2. Decarabian never stomped Andrius. All we know is that he created a barrier to protect his people from Andrius, which Andrius didn't manage to break through.
3. Venti specifically says that he needs help, because he is an archon now, which means he needs to act as one to get power. He quite literally says that he isn't strong enough to do it by himself. So no, I am not the one telling you, he is.

Right, because "causing a sea monster to bleed" is an exaggeration compared to "fighting for days on-end, before one-shotting THE sea monster by throwing her sword through all its heads at once at the break of dawn", which is what actually happened.

Urgh, what? That's not what happened at all. She wasn't fighting for days. She fought it for ten hours and likely not in the water as well. She didn't throw her sword, but cut with it. Oh and yeah, pulling out a monster from the ocean with her bare hands and then cracking its head open with a punch is a lot more impressive than cutting off its head with a huge sword.

Again, where are you getting this?

That everyone would scale or that they can do it alone? I mean, tghey literally just send one guy to take care of all the Ruinguards. Why everyone scales? Because we know that Hillichurls are a trouble to them and we do know that regular, non combatant humans can take hits from them. So unless "growing up" in genshin makes you hundreds of thouthands of times stronger than when you were a child, they should also scale. Oh and before I forget it, tier 7 boars :v

I asked what was framing that as a great feat of power, which you claimed it was. You didn't answer, by the way.

I don't think I ever said it's impressive. It's just pretty clear that both he and Rosari don't think there are many people that can stop him and we know that he most likely won't just erase Mondstadt in the blink of an eye. Re-reading that scene, I also found that he thinks the travelers strength is roughly at a level where they can cut through rock 10m thick and inverse a waterfall. Considering he wants the traveler to stop him, he must think of himself to be at least roughly at that level of strength.

In the event that it is, in fact, not treated as a great feat of power, then Albedo hoping the Traveler could stop him would easily make sense, since that would imply that Albedo believes that the Traveler's full power would be able to stop him if he went on a rampage, and that he's not afraid of his own power, but the risk of his going on a rampage.

He actually doubts the traveler can stop him. After you leave, he asks himself "Can I rely on you to stop me". Since he doesn't actually ask the traveler, that means he wonders if he can actually rely on the traveler or not.

By what comparison? They never fought, and the one time they were in a fight, they were on the same team. Razor blocked one attack from Andrius to the Traveler's blind spot and you consider him superior? Not taking into account that Razor was far more familiar with Andrius' abilities than the Traveler, who knew nothing about him?

Wasn't a blindspot, but Andrius was hiding within the fog, meaning Razor couldn't see him either, meaning he didn't really hold any advantage here. Razor wasn't even close in that scene, so while the traveler couldn't react and fell to the ground, Razor ran across half the arena to stop Andrius within the nick of time.

How about you read it?

This one is kind of on me I guess. I read it as "The overlord of the geovishaps and primo geovishaps were imprisoned" instead of "The overlord of the geovishaps and primo geovishaps was imprisoned", so yeah, only the overlord was imprisoned and the rest followed. Doesn't change my original point at all though.

Your 'humor' comes off as condescension, and the fact that you haven't realized this despite plenty of people calling you out on it well before now, is the problem. Your 'humor' is dismissive of others' opinions, and isn't even limited to just your disagreement with the wiki standards. You have no right being frustrated with people not taking your arguments seriously when you don't exactly portray yourself as someone who takes anyone else seriously yourself.

uuuuum, ok

Just in this thread:
"Please re-read the in game description. Thank you." Way to be sarcastic, not to mention confidently incorrect.
"kek" Wow, so much respect.

I wasn't sarcastic in that one, actually. Anyways.
Just in this thread: "Look again, they're outside the arena, where the winds are." quite confidently incorrect, smh.
"It's hard to take your arguments seriously when half of them are genuinely noteworthy points and then you start claiming things that are flat-out wrong as facts."
Wow, so much respect.
In case you couldn't tell, this was shitposting. Oh and obviously you can't complain about this. After all, showing you are frustrated in response to someones arguments means you lose your right to be frustrated all together :v (twas a joke, be as frustrated as you want, I can take it)

Purple lightning in dark clouds would certainly imply purple clouds. And color is not solid grounds to dispute legitimacy, because again, this is fiction. Suspension of disbelief is a concept.

You would see the lightning. Isn't arguing for suspension of disbelief and applying real life physics at the same time a little bit contradictory?

her destruction of Starsnatch Cliff is her teaching Klee how to do the same, so it would've been pretty counter-productive to use explosives stronger than anything Klee has.

Where did you get that from? It doesn't imply Klee being close to any of this at any time. Actually, Klee only gets her explosives after this incident.


I think that was all of them. Anyways, lets just hope I can finish the cloud/cooling revisions as fast as possible.

 

[Solacis]

Bumping for others' input

 

[Cyberblader90]

bump

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Ok, sorry for the very late notice, my one question is this, does the verse have a Universal Energy System

 

[Solacis]

What's the exact definition for that, anyway? From what little I've gathered of its meaning, then I'd say Genshin does have one.

All Vision-users use their Visions to channel and control the power of the elements, which naturally flow throughout all of Teyvat (take the description of Zhongli's Dominus Lapidis for example, which describes the power of Geo as being present in "every mountain, rock and inch of land". The exact scale of this control relies on the user's skill level, thus why Razor was taught by Lisa, and it's stated that Gnoses (which are used by the respective gods of each element) are far more effective compared to Visions due to channeling the energy directly from Celestia, which we know almost nothing about, besides the fact that gods live there and that mortal heroes ascend to godhood there.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Well, dies the verse have a energy that everyone uses to attack, like Magic, Ki, Chakra, Mana, or something similar

Stuff like that

 

[Solacis]

Yeah, it's Elemental Energy. All magic in Teyvat uses it, in one way or another, be it Visions, Gnoses, even Alchemy.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Yeah, it's Elemental Energy. All magic in Teyvat uses it, in one way or another, be it Visions, Gnoses, even Alchemy.

Then scaling the storm calc should be totally fine