Immeasurable Speed Sonic, time to PERISH

[Zamasu_Chan]

Sheesh.

 

[DebatingIsMyGoal]

@Greenshifter It won't be "might" it would be, "Immeasurable speed will never dodge a attack from an time and space omnipresent character" since where and when ever they go, the attack would still hit them. Think about it like this, you have immeasurable speed and just got hit from a omnipresent character, so you decided to go to the past but oops you got hit since the attack hits you in the past too, so you go to the future instead and oops it hits you in the future too, so what do you do? Nothing, since your past and future will get hit and there would be no safe location for you, even in the present you're getting hit from the attack. You're getting hit, got hit, and will get hit by the attack, nothing can escape from an omnipresent attack.

Now let's talk about a attack from a omnipresent character that is only omnipresent through space, you can go to the past or future to avoid the attack so immeasurable speed beats only space omnipresent character.
But the hard part comes when it's about a time only omnipresent character vs immeasurable speed character. Think of time line a horizontal line on a graph, now try to imagine that every point in that line is getting attacked by a time only omnipresent character, you would see that no point in that line is safe. You might say that the immeasurable character can go to the past or future to avoid the attack so now think of a new line being created from a point in the original line and curve it backwards to a point in the past, though there's still the problem that the omnipresent attack would still hit the character on the new line because the time only omnipresent attack would hit you through all of the past, present, and future. The immeasurable character while creating the new line would be going through the present and future(they're going through the future by going to create the new line and will be in the present when they're creating the new line, while going to go through the future while being in the present, not mentioning that their past is being attacked too), and so all point in that new line would be hit by the omnipresent character. You get hit in the past, present, and future so there's no avoiding the attack. You can create another line from that line or any other point but it won't do any good because all those lines are getting hit.

I personally disagree with the immeasurable speed because there would be no way for a immeasurable character to avoid an attack from a time only/space and time omnipresent character. They might avoid a space only omnipresent character but not a time only omnipresent character. Though what would they get if not immeasurable speed?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

@Greenshifter It won't be "might" it would be, "Immeasurable speed will never dodge a attack from an time and space omnipresent character" since where and when ever they go, the attack would still hit them. Think about it like this, you have immeasurable speed and just got hit from a omnipresent character, so you decided to go to the past but oops you got hit since the attack hits you in the past too, so you go to the future instead and oops it hits you in the future too, so what do you do? Nothing, since your past and future will get hit and there would be no safe location for you, even in the present you're getting hit from the attack. You're getting hit, got hit, and will get hit by the attack, nothing can escape from an omnipresent attack.

Now let's talk about a attack from a omnipresent character that is only omnipresent through space, you can go to the past or future to avoid the attack so immeasurable speed beats only space omnipresent character.
But the hard part comes when it's about a time only omnipresent character vs immeasurable speed character. Think of time line a horizontal line on a graph, now try to imagine that every point in that line is getting attacked by a time only omnipresent character, you would see that no point in that line is safe. You might say that the immeasurable character can go to the past or future to avoid the attack so now think of a new line being created from a point in the original line and curve it backwards to a point in the past, though there's still the problem that the omnipresent attack would still hit the character on the new line because the time only omnipresent attack would hit you through all of the past, present, and future. The immeasurable character while creating the new line would be going through the present and future(they're going through the future by going to create the new line and will be in the present when they're creating the new line, while going to go through the future while being in the present, not mentioning that their past is being attacked too), and so all point in that new line would be hit by the omnipresent character. You get hit in the past, present, and future so there's no avoiding the attack. You can create another line from that line or any other point but it won't do any good because all those lines are getting hit.

I personally disagree with the immeasurable speed because there would be no way for a immeasurable character to avoid an attack from a time only/space and time omnipresent character. They might avoid a space only omnipresent character but not a time only omnipresent character. Thought what would they get if not immeasurable speed?

Buddy if immeasurable speed is not ENOUGH to deal to temporal omni......than how the hell is finite or infinite speed going do any better....it would be even worse for them....

Its like confiscating a some scraps of food from a poor hungry guy just because its not enough to fill his stomach....

If its not enough then he bare minimum needs atleast that much and then some.....

So instead of downgrading the immeasurable speed we should create a discussion thread to discuss what EXTRA needs in order to keep up.

Also it's not actaully impossible for Sonic to dodge temporally omnipresent attacks if he is immeasurable speed....he just has to move into a time period into an empty space where the attack has not reached yet.

But more sad part actually is that saying Solaris is bound by linear time at all.....when that is definitely not the case. Saying that his attacks move limited space in limited time is wrong actually.....We immeasurable speed pro team have brainstormed long and hard over this....but we will reveal those points when the anti side comes up with thier own catalogued arguements.

 

[DebatingIsMyGoal]

@GilverTheProtoAngelo Never said infinite or finite speed would do any better, I even stated that nothing would avoid a time and space omnipresent attack or a time only omnipresent attack.

I thought people were trying to give them immeasurable speed because of the time omnipresent statement, the only thing I want to do is state how immeasurable speed wouldn't be enough to battle omnipresent so they shouldn't give give them immeasurable speed because of an omnipresent attack, if this thread isn't using the omnipresent attack as a way to get immeasurable speed then please excuse me as I leave.

Yeah I would agree to this, though I don't know what else would help him against a time omnipresent attack other than the attack not being omnipresent. not even Acausality would work because the attack would hit them in the present and future. Unless they are completely above time and above the whole timeline.

It is impossible because any point of time he goes to he is being hit in the past present and future, any point that is in the timeline would be hit, if you say "where the attack hasn't hit yet" then it seems like you need to look at the definition of omnipresent because there is no safe spot as the attack has hit every point in the past present and future.

I only said to imagine it like that to get a easier understanding of an omnipresent attack, if Solaris is omnipresent through all of time then there really is no way to dodge the attack as the attack would hit at every point in the past present of future.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

@DebatingIsMyGoal You've got alot of catching up to do. All of your points were already adressed. Besides, even if your arguments held up, immeasurable speed should already be too fast for causality to take effect to begin with. Since it goes beyond infinite speed, which allows the user to do a countless number of actions in 0 second, the Super forms wouldn't have a past or future to take advantage of to begin with, yet they would still be able to keep up with Solaris the way we see them do it. Unless you bring up something COMPLETELY new, (which is basically impossible since we've been discussing this for 11 pages) there's no way for you to remove immeasurable speed without replacing it with something even more OP. It's impossible to keep up with, let alone blitz Solaris with a finite speed value, and if you try to argue that NOT EVEN immeasurable speed should be enough to do it, then this becomes an upgrade thread for Sonic, beccuse there are other even stronger options to make sense of this boss fight, and we already crossed out type 2 acausality as a possibility with TAoE.

Now are we finally gonna start the reset or are we gonna continue going in circles?

 

[DebatingIsMyGoal]

@Peptocoptr27 I'm entirely open to a even OPer thing IF it makes sense. Did immeasurable speed get an content revision? This is the first time I'm hearing of a faster than causality, but even if it was faster than causality it doesn't matter because the omnipresent attack is still hitting him in the present, and everywhen else. And please don't bring up finite speed or infinite speed because I never said anything that would seems as though they have a chance against an omnipresent being. And I'll say it again, I'm open for something better as long as its not immeasurable speed because immeasurable speed wouldn't win against omnipresent.
" I personally disagree with the immeasurable speed because there would be no way for a immeasurable character to avoid an attack from a time only/space and time omnipresent character. They might avoid a space only omnipresent character but not a time only omnipresent character. Though what would they get if not immeasurable speed? "
In my last sentence I even stated that I disagree with immeasurable speed, and asked what they would get if not immeasurable speed.

I'm gonna wait until I figure some stuff out, and see this new content revision for immeasurable speed

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

It is impossible because any point of time he goes to he is being hit in the past present and future, any point that is in the timeline would be hit, if you say "where the attack hasn't hit yet" then it seems like you need to look at the definition of omnipresent because there is no safe spot as the attack has hit

You lack forbidden knowledge then......

 

[DebatingIsMyGoal]

You lack forbidden knowledge then......

IF there is somehow a place that isn't already hit. being hit, and going to be hit then the attack isn't omnipresent. Unless you can show something that will change my opinion, I really don't think there would be a place that isn't hit.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Unless you can show something that will change my opinion,

Why not read all 11 pages? What you are saying has been said... I lost count.

 

[MysticMania]

I feel I can understand where you're coming from, Debating, but I still believe that immeasurable is more than fast enough for them to avoid these attacks.

​

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

IF there is somehow a place that isn't already hit. being hit, and going to be hit then the attack isn't omnipresent. Unless you can show something that will change my opinion, I really don't think there would be a place that isn't hit.

These points have been brought up indirectly and directly......regardless we have discussed over this extensively amongst ourselves......and we have the explanations for it......but the ball is in Anti immeasurable sides court to catalogue and post thier arguements.....the burden of proof is on them....untill then we won't reveal our cards....and Sonic will continue to enjoy immeasurable speed on his profile in the meantime.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

@DebatingIsMyGoal Your points are the same ad Duedate's. The same ones that contradict DarkDragon. If you read the last two pages, you would realize your points contribute to nothing. We still need to wait for them to agree with each other and compile their arguments. We already have multiple times, but we're ready to do it again if we have to. I'm glad you're still open-minded enough to consider sonething more OP though. If immeasurable doesn't cut it in your opinion, then there's either 2nd degree immeasurable speed or temporal omnipresence to consider for the hedgehogs. We don't agree with either of these atm. Immeasurable is the best solution.

 

[DebatingIsMyGoal]

Welp 1-4 was a bust, 5 is all about time travel, and portals, and how Acauslity doesn't work, and something new I didn't knew before is that Solaris can be speed blitz even though omnipresent is a state of being and immeasurable can't blitz them. Higher time dimensions, so the argument is that Sonic can go through a higher time dimension and go back BEFORE Solaris sent the meteor then blitz him. So the explanation in page 5 is higher dimensions, and I haven't seen a rebuttal to immeasurable speed not avoiding an omnipresent attack. You say that Sonic can dodge the attack because he has immeasurable speed yet you don't say how, because if he goes to the past or future he will get hit. And this is a surprise how game mechanic is being used to decline immeasurable speed.

There really is a big contradiction here, the opposing sides have contradicting statements, one being you don't need immeasurable to dodge omnipresent, and other being immeasurable is useless against omnipresent.
"In the revision threads for Immeasurable speed, many other staff members pretty much agreed that Immeasurable was effectively "faster than causality" and would allow characters to dodge attacks that have "already hit them" in the past.In the revision threads for Immeasurable speed, many other staff members pretty much agreed that Immeasurable was effectively "faster than causality" and would allow characters to dodge attacks that have "already hit them" in the past." so there was a revision.

I love how "No, they would have to be outside of time in order to avoid those attacks. If they're moving through it, they're still liable to be hit due to the omnipresence" this is stated, and he is ignored, "Since Dude has absolutely zero ideas of a solution to this thread at all that doesn't involve stating he doesn't have an ability that's explicitly stated for Solaris to have I propose we should do this:"
I really haven't seen any counterargument yet.
"I'm sorry if I'm missing some context, but, even if they should be getting no matter what, we know they can avoid Solaris' attacks with, I don't want to say without effort, but with ease. We have to find out why that is, though, I assume.

I don't personally see this feat as any sort of outlier. Yes, assuming immeasurable for Super is solid, then it is well above what's been established for the forms as of now. But, I don't think that's an issue at all. After all, if big gaps means a feat is an outlier, then how are you to upgrade characters in the first place? Unless the feat is immensely vague, or contradictory, I don't feel it can be marked as an outlier."

"

I'm sorry if I'm missing some context, but, even if they should be getting no matter what, we know they can avoid Solaris' attacks with, I don't want to say without effort, but with ease. We have to find out why that is, though, I assume.

I don't personally see this feat as any sort of outlier. Yes, assuming immeasurable for Super is solid, then it is well above what's been established for the forms as of now. But, I don't think that's an issue at all. After all, if big gaps means a feat is an outlier, then how are you to upgrade characters in the first place? Unless the feat is immensely vague, or contradictory, I don't feel it can be marked as an outlier.

I'm not arguing Immeasurable as an outlier.

Why doesn’t the downgrade side just make a “final argument” bit? Summarise your whole point of why it’s specifically not immeasurable speed, and if it makes enough sense, it should get agreed on.

Because seriously, this thread’s been a shitshow. It’s been a bunch of back and forths that hasn’t overall really proved anything to anyone.

The problem I have is that it's being argued that in order to avoid the attacks, immeasurable speed is required which is not the case. Immeasurability would be about as useful as finite speed here. "
"Oh, my bad, I should've worded myself better. The first part was in reference to you, but the second part of my statement was referring to Da_Lunge_Fish."
They start talking about it but gets ignored for game mechanics again..

Nothing else about immeasurable speed not being able to avoid omnipresent, to the next page we go. And already half way through and nothing about omnipresent vs immeasurable, but he is back now and let's see what will happen.
This is just a debate between MysticMania and DueDate where MysticMania doesn't understand what DueDate is trying to say, also why are they talking about game mechanics, and game visuals, it's literally half of their sentences.

This page was a fluke again with nothing about immeasurable vs omnipresent, onto the next. AGAIN half of the damn page isn't even about omnipresent vs immeasurable, there has been no arguments for/against this statement.

"This is exactly what I am talking about, you all are saying that "it's not enough/it doesn't fit standards", all I want is an explanation, that isn't one"
back and forth is what this page is all about.
"

Now, it is then said that to avoid temporal omnipresence, immeasurable does not help due to how immeasurable speed can't be used to move one's past self (also future self) who would still be in the way of the attack if it was dodged.

This doesn't debunk immesurable per say, only that not even immesurable is enough, that's your only reason that you honestly refuse to even accept any counters to this"
I think we all agree that immeasurable doesn't help against omnipresent.
"The fact that they can pull off a feat even an immeasurable character shouldn't be capable of just makes this even more impressive. I'm not saying Super Sonic has irrelevant speed or anything. Just look at it this way: If Solaris's temporal omnipresence was across most of time instead of all of it, if he existed everywhen except for the earliest past and the latest future, no one would argue against immeasurable speed since dodging Solaris's attacks would require zipping between the beginning and the end of time constantly and instantly. That's about as Immeasurable as you can get, but since the Super forms' scaling is more impressive than that, it's suddenly innaplicable so they're just MFTL+. That makes no sense. You might say that allowing Super Sonic to upscale from immeasurable also makes no sense, but that's still what the fight implies. Other characters on the Wiki have immeasurable speed via blitzing other immeasurable characters after all, and since VS debating is all about applying logic to feats that scientifically make no sense, why should this be any different? If not that, then it implies the hedgehogs have the same omnipresence as Solaris along with his temporal AoE, which as I already explained, can grant the same benefits as Immeasurable speed. If Super Sonic isn't simply immeasurable, we'd have to create a new speed rank called "omnipresent+" or "omnipresent (through time)". Either way, he should be able to keep up with Immeasurable characters so what's the point? Immeasurable speed by itself can grant users temporal AoE and omnipresence (if the user choses to use it that way) anyway! So there's hardly any difference. If you remove immeasurable speed, you'd have to replace it with temporal AoE AND omnipresence, which in turn would bring Super Sonic's speed rank right back to how it was before this thread and make him even more OP and harder to kill than before. Do you not see the hypocrisy here?"
This is basically the only argument(I have found right now) for immeasurable speed against the statement that immeasurable wouldn't work against omnipresent, just that Sonic is higher into Immeasurable speed, and/or that Sonic has omnipresence like Solaris, and this would be added to the two other characters.

So we can all agree that we have no idea how Sonic and the co. had fought against Solaris because immeasurable speed wouldn't be enough, either it was plot stupidity or Sonic should have higher into immeasurable speed which still won't beat omnipresence.

"However, the TL;DR to your arguments have essentially just been, "no "." Myst tells the truth, there hasn't been a real debate here., the only thing Due says is "No it doesn't work" without giving a reason then he talk about the game not visualizing immeasurable speed, no debate nor counterargument here.

"HOW IMMEASURABLE SPEED SOLVES EVERY PROBLEM SOLARIS’S SUPER-DIMENSIONAL PHYSIOLOGY BRINGS TO THE TABLE WITHOUT TURNING THE FIGHT INTO A STOMP (and why temporal AoE isn’t enough)

This brings up a few points I’ve already brought up in the past. I’m just re-iterating and creating this separate chapter for the sake of clarity and to make sure I’ve properly covered everything.

-Temporal AoE should allow the hedgehogs to hit Solaris’ core at every point in time, dealing some lasting damage to him, however, it doesn’t allow them to reach that core to begin with due to Solaris’ numerous defenses, much less bypass his reactions, which are clearly both still a factor in the fight.

-Immeasurable speed can grant temporal AoE and omnipresence to counter Solaris’. The only difference is that for Solaris, they’re both passive abilities attached to his physiology, while for the Super forms, they need to remain active to keep it in effect. Immeasurable speed is the best explanation as to why Solaris’ attacks don’t linger and neither do his movement.

-Super Sonic can see Solaris as one entity, whereas every other non-Super character sees him as a bright blur that can’t be identified. The only one who somewhat knows what they’re dealing with is Eggman, and even then, nothing about his words imply that he can see what Solaris looks like. He knows he has a body of light, and that there should be something anchoring him in the dimension (which better not be used as an anti-immeasurable argument, because it’s already been debunked in many other threads). Eggman has an I.Q of 300 and studied the Solaris project, so this all makes sense. The fact that Sonic can see an omnipresent being as if it was one clear entity while everyone else can’t proves that the writers have some idea how temporal omnipresence works, while also proving that the Super forms must have something similar. There’s no other way for them to just deny something major like that. Temporal AoE clearly does not cut it by itself.
Edit: This one isn't actually that relevent

-Without immeasurable speed, the hedgehogs would get blasted by the same attack over and over, without the possibility to escape it. You don’t see them dodge an attack that’s already hit them? That’s because the characters do it passively. You can’t make your character navigate in a 4D space with just buttons and a joystick, so the characters do it automatically. They can still get hurt by Solaris’ attacks? Yeah, no shit. Immeasurable speed doesn’t make this fight a cakewalk for them. It just allows them to keep up and perceive Solaris the same way he perceives himself, which makes sense if you look back at my comparison board."
I'll probably get to this tomorrow, I need sleep.
The next half page is about game now showing Sonic dodge the omnipresent attacks, and about game mechanics.
Onto the next page, page 10 now.
"

The hedgehogs can't move their past or futures selves in order to dodge these attacks.
If the attacks are omnipresent throughout all of time, then if any point in their own time ever overlaps with Solaris' attacks they would get hit. Even with immeasurable speed, you still have a past and a future. And immeasurable speed in of itself does not allow you to control the position of your past self, merely update your present to avoid things that incur upon them.

Immeasurable speed does however, allow you to project your present self into the past and move there. If it also allows you to update your present and avoid things from happening in it like you said, doesn't that also support my point? Since that present would eventually become the past, and the new present would get replaced by what was formerly known as the future, to dodge an attack after already being struck by it is essentially the same thing as moving your past self out of harm's way. It looks like I had a stroke trying to write that sentence, and it must be hard to wrap your head around it from an outsider's perspective, but basically, I don't see how changing something that happened in your present and something that happened in your past is any different in this case, especially given the context. The past is nothing but a former present, and the future is nothing but a soon-to-be present."
I'll get to this tomorrow, the next debate is about visuals

"I can't blame you for forgetting since there's so much gong on here. Here it is reitereated:
If Solaris existed in every point in time except for the most distant future and the earliest past, no one would argue against the hedgehogs needing immeasurable speed to dodge Solaris' attacks and blitz him, because they would need to dodge them by travelling from the very beginnng of time to the end of it in less than an instant.
Compare that to Solaris' absolute temporal omnipresence, and this hypothetical scenario is less impressive, yet still immeasurable. Disregarding the feat and placing the Super forms at a finite speed rank because it's too impressive is very dis-honest, especially when immeasurable speed can be obtained from upscaling to someone else who is immeasurable."
Tomorrow, also the next debates are about game statements of immeasurable speed.
"

I outlined above why Immeasurable doesn't work to solve the logistical problems of this fight and then asked for evidence to prove immeasurable.

Immesurable doesn't work because the past self would be hit, people countered that past attacks can be dodged by immesurables, you then argued that this isn't visually show, then I said no video game media visually shows this, so asking for evidence is unreasonable because this type of evidence doesn't exist, it's improvable, therefore immesurable can work because your counter is simply false, you are scaming us by repeating yourself, your logic has been dismantled, those two staments have no more backing, you cannot hide in those false truths anymore"
This is basically what happened but no one debated over the statement that immeasurable speed doesn't win against omnipresent. Sure Sonic can go to the past or future to dodge the attack but the attack would hit them because they're going into the past and future where the meteor will hit them, is hitting them, and is going to hit them.

"The opposition’s argument isn’t that he has a crappy version of temporal omnipresence. It’s more in the line of even immeasurable isn’t good enough to dodge his attacks.

That’s why we hate this middle ground, you’re essentially saying Sonic has some super OP thing that lets him fight Solaris equally when even immeasurable speed supposedly wouldn’t (or if you ask other people then finite speed suddenly is enough to fight him) but everything that is proposed as this ability that he has is contradicted. So we have a 100% certainty that just removing immeasurable from his page without adding several other abilities (of which I have seen none that would actually let him fight Solaris equally) would make the page less accurate. Hence we are repeating ourselves ad infinitum." from Green, tomorrow
"

If Solaris has a really crappy, gutted version of Temporal Omnipresence with few benefits, then I guess it would suck to be them, but it would still make more sense than slapping immeasurable speed onto characters who lack the requirements and are stuck in an awkward middle ground as a result.

How can he even have a crappy version of temporal omnipresence? This isn't an abillity with varying levels of effectiveness, this is just what Solaris IS. He can't be bad at having a physiology, and members on both sides of the argument have admitted that temporal omnipresence is something that can be countered with certain abillities that don't just involve TAoE. Cal said that immeasurable speed would do the trick, while other anti-immeasurables such as Duedate say that even immeasurable speed is not enough, and that the hedgehogs would need to have thier own omnipresence or type 2 acausality. Both sides agree that omnipresence and type 2 acausality are unreasonable due to their contradictions. Every member of pro-immeasurable agrees that immeasurable speed is the best and only way left to match Solaris the way they do, (and Cal, who is an anti-immeasurable agrees with that idea and only seems to disagree with immeasurable for an unrelated reason that has been debunked)." by pepto
I have gone through all of the pages and tried to find the answers I'm looking for, it should have been "solved" but it hasn't, the only thing said is that immeasurable speed would "somehow" dodge omnipresent, but we can all agree that immeasurable speed alone wouldn't do anything and wouldn't be enough to dodge omnipresent.
I'll try to answer them tomorrow, I'll be sleeping now

 

[DebatingIsMyGoal]

@DebatingIsMyGoal Your points are the same ad Duedate's. The same ones that contradict DarkDragon. If you read the last two pages, you would realize your points contribute to nothing. We still need to wait for them to agree with each other and compile their arguments. We already have multiple times, but we're ready to do it again if we have to. I'm glad you're still open-minded enough to consider sonething more OP though. If immeasurable doesn't cut it in your opinion, then there's either 2nd degree immeasurable speed or temporal omnipresence to consider for the hedgehogs. We don't agree with either of these atm. Immeasurable is the best solution.

And my points are my points, I don't need to stop just because it contradicts some other person's opinion. I would like to be able to debate with them, but I don't know how to contact them. Although immeasurable is the best solution, it still wouldn't be able to dodge omnipresent, I can only say that it's the game's fault for such illogical things as this.

 

[DebatingIsMyGoal]

These points have been brought up indirectly and directly......regardless we have discussed over this extensively amongst ourselves......and we have the explanations for it......but the ball is in Anti immeasurable sides court to catalogue and post thier arguements.....the burden of proof is on them....untill then we won't reveal our cards....and Sonic will continue to enjoy immeasurable speed on his profile in the meantime.

Welp I guess I'll have to wait then

 

[Theuser789]

If immesurable speed isn't enough, then the downgrade side needs to propose a solution to the feat that makes sense, not downgrade for the sake of a downgrade because that doesn't solve the problem

 

[Peptocoptr27]

This is basically the only argument(I have found right now) for immeasurable speed against the statement that immeasurable wouldn't work against omnipresent, just that Sonic is higher into Immeasurable speed, and/or that Sonic has omnipresence like Solaris, and this would be added to the two other characters.

I also made a comparison board many pages ago that compare characters with infinite speed, space omnis, characters with immeasurable speed, and time omnis. It helps illustrate my point better. The reason I haven't made any new argument since is because this one has never been responded to.

So we can all agree that we have no idea how Sonic and the co. had fought against Solaris because immeasurable speed wouldn't be enough, either it was plot stupidity or Sonic should have higher into immeasurable speed which still won't beat omnipresence.

How would it NOT beat omnipresence? If anything, it's overkill, because "regular" Immeasurable speed can already replicate the benefits of temporal area of effect, temporal omnipresence (without the survivabillity perks), and type 2 acausality with speed alone. Even Dudedate said that, along with TAOE, one of these last two options should allow them to dodge Solaris's attacks. Yet, these individual options have been debunked, but immeasurable can grant any and all of them when used properly.

And my points are my points, I don't need to stop just because it contradicts some other person's opinion. I would like to be able to debate with them, but I don't know how to contact them. Although immeasurable is the best solution, it still wouldn't be able to dodge omnipresent, I can only say that it's the game's fault for such illogical things as this

That's fair, but have you seen the reset requirements? You can voice your points once it happens. It's essential for our opposition to have a clear and consistant vision. We can't keep going when the two members most heavily involved in the downgrade agree for completely contradictary reasons.

Welp I guess I'll have to wait then

We're all caught up then. Good to know

 

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

The magical fuckles happened here?

 

[Theuser789]

(6:08)

Just argue that past, present and future obviously aren't only three time periods by definition, also if you want something go to a wall, this is derrailing the thread and wastes even more posts

 

[Theuser789]

Not in the actual game's context, it's very clear past, present and future mean the past, present and future, not "moment of the past and moment of the future"

Also the general discussion thread exists if you want other help for unrelated shit

 

[ElixirBlue]

The magical fuckles happened here?

New users entering the fray

 

[JJSliderman]

Well ig if the thread is being rebooted anyway ah

Main takeaways from my perspective:
-Hedgehogs dodge attacks that move across all of time, but not space (either the hedgehogs are in a place where their past selves are unaffected, past selves got out of the way without knowing Solaris existed, or Acausality that was seemingly debunked)
-Can tag Solaris before Solaris moves to another point in time (possible with Immeasurable Attack speed/temporal AOE)
-No evidence of dedicated time travel.
-Multiple hedgehogs don't discredit the hedgehogs hitting across time, just makes it easier it to do due to not having as many targets to hit.
Regardless ig Temporal AOE isn't bad, it's like Sonic has his own Time Killer.

 

[Theuser789]

We need the staff members to have a consistent view before the reset

 

[Peptocoptr27]

@JJSliderman With immeasurable speed, the hogs would be able to move fast enough to not even have past selves to begin with. Just sayin

 

[Shmooply]

11 pages

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

This entire thread just makes me believe more and more that our consensus on how to treat immeasurable speed here is being made to be far more complicated than it actually needs to be.

 

[Theuser789]

How so?

 

[Greenshifter]

This entire thread just makes me believe more and more that our consensus on how to treat immeasurable speed here is being made to be far more complicated than it actually needs to be.

Maybe we need to create a general thread for that?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

First we need to make a thread to discuss temporal omnipresence......since technically this is the crux of all pro immeasurable speed arguements and disagreements of anti side with it....

But most importantly the anti side seems to have a made several errors in thier judgement of Solaris.....Temporal Omnipresence as a concept itself is far more complicated and dangerous than it appears....and they have ended up downplaying it.

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

This gotta be the most fire CRT I've ever seen.

Diablo 3 Soundtrack - The Eternal Conflict

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

How so?

Let’s just say our standards for immeasurable speed are like a girl trying on new clothes from the mall. They are constantly ever changing in what is acceptable for the rating and what isn’t, making things more complicated and more strict than they actually need to be as obstacles to get the rating.

Especially when we have to make up a new requirement for it when certain verses (that shall not be named) reached the rating under old requirements but are then given the Charlie Brown treatment in never getting the rating when our standards, that were already strict before, get even stricter in response.

It’s at a point where I don’t even know what qualifies or doesn’t qualify as immeasurable speed anymore under these very specific guidelines that are more rare and verse specific than generalized.

 

[Theuser789]

Yeah, I agree, most of the arguments have been "this doesn't fit the standards" afterall

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I’d really like for all of us to actually sit down and have a conversation about our immeasurable speed standards to get our concerns, confusions and suggestions out of the way.

But alas, this isn’t the thread for that.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We actually did have a lengthy discussion about Immeasurable speed. And it got restricted because there are plenty of characters who time travel but lack an actual "Combat speed" feats for Immeasurable, but have been rated as Immeasurable regardless. Which was explained that doing so is the same as giving someone Infinite speed simply because they teleport. But this is off topic.

Omnipresent characters also have had numerous discussions with mixed/conflicting thoughts between staff, but it seems most of the staff agree that simply a non Omnipresent character being able to keep up in combat with a temporal Omnipresent character doesn't automatically mean it's an Immeasurable speed feat. And there was a multitude of reasons why, but I agree that that one in particular should be its own thread; there should be a better more consistent consensus.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

We actually did have a lengthy discussion about Immeasurable speed. And it got restricted because there are plenty of characters who time travel but lack an actual "Combat speed" feats for Immeasurable, but have been rated as Immeasurable regardless. Which was explained that doing so is the same as giving someone Infinite speed simply because they teleport. But this is off topic.

While I understand the concept behind why its restricted, my problem with this decision in restricting the standards more is because this issue isn't really a standards issue. It's a scaling issue from the particular verse.

There's a difference between what actually qualifies as the particular feat in the first place, and how its actually applied to the characters involved with the feat. The latter is where our problem stems from. If a bunch of characters are being inappropriately scaled to immeasurable without having enough sufficient evidence to defend their ratings, such as the lack of combat speeds or if its an outlier, or whatever the circumstances may be, then the solution for this should be to downgrade those characters who don't qualify. Not revise the standards as a whole that can screw over other verses who don't suffer from these inconsistencies.

I know this isn't the thread for this, and I'll drop it from here on, but I just wanted to get this small piece from me out here so people can see.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It doesn't just go related to "Outliers" and "PIS"; but the specific feats need to be Immeasurable to begin with. Like Pre-Crisis Superman having Immeasurable flight speed when all he really should have is just Time Travel. And honestly, the basic premise of Immeasurable speed isn't that complicated; most agreed the way I wrote sounds on point. The Omnipresent parts are the complicated example, but yes; we should probably make a new thread later and then link it here, then close this after it's made.

I can't do that yet because, RL work today. But I or another staff member probably should yes.

 

[Hunterzillas]

This gotta be the most fire CRT I've ever seen.

Diablo 3 Soundtrack - The Eternal Conflict

All this lingo about Immeasurable speed, I don't think a thread has ever given me a headache before until now, and I sat through the Mario upgrade.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I don’t even know what qualifies for immeasurable speed anymore lmao.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

While I understand the concept behind why its restricted, my problem with this decision in restricting the standards more is because this issue isn't really a standards issue. It's a scaling issue from the particular verse.

There's a difference between what actually qualifies as the particular feat in the first place, and how its actually applied to the characters involved with the feat. The latter is where our problem stems from. If a bunch of characters are being inappropriately scaled to immeasurable without having enough sufficient evidence to defend their ratings, such as the lack of combat speeds or if its an outlier, or whatever the circumstances may be, then the solution for this should be to downgrade those characters who don't qualify. Not revise the standards as a whole that can screw over other verses who don't suffer from these inconsistencies.

I know this isn't the thread for this, and I'll drop it from here on, but I just wanted to get this small piece from me out here so people can see.

Exactly! This is precisely what we've been trying to say for so long!

 

[Peptocoptr27]

We actually did have a lengthy discussion about Immeasurable speed.

Where is it? I've been asking you to link that discussion thread since page 5. By now, I just assumed it didn't exist.

It doesn't just go related to "Outliers" and "PIS"; but the specific feats need to be Immeasurable to begin with.

We've proven time and time again that some degree of immeasurable is the only option left, with arguments that have been ignored time and time again, wether on purpose or not. Even DueDate accidentally disagreed with your points despite being anti-immeasurable. Have you talked to him yet?

Like Pre-Crisis Superman having Immeasurable flight speed when all he really should have is just Time Travel.

Since Pre-Crisis Supes could make up new Super powers on the spot, I guess that's fair? Pretty sure he has other immeasurable scaling, but that's a different discussion.

And honestly, the basic premise of Immeasurable speed isn't that complicated; most agreed the way I wrote sounds on point. The Omnipresent parts are the complicated example, but yes; we should probably make a new thread later and then link it here, then close this after it's made.

Yep. That's the second step of the reset plan. Did you read the other steps of the process? The first one is by far the most important