Immeasurable Speed Sonic, time to PERISH

[Theuser789]

It's due to the fact they need to hit in all time points to kill him

 

[MysticMania]

They said something similar to that, I think?

 

[Arcker123]

Sign me up for disagreeing with the downgrade

 

[Peptocoptr27]

They said something similar to that, I think?

Silver talked about destroying the past, present and future all at once. Shadow agreed that it should be possible with Sonic, and Eggman knows that it's the only way to defeat Solaris, stating that "defeating it here, now would do nothing". His reasoning being that Solaris is a super-dimensional life form who exists in the past, present, and future

 

[Peptocoptr27]

If anyone still objects to immeasurable, now would be the time to speak up. The consensus is overwhelmingly in favor of immeasurable. I've looked over all 8 pages of this a second time, and the only people who are against it either have no arguments or ones that are quite frankly arbitrary. They rely exclusively on the fact that other franchises often screw up the logistics of omnipresence, while the rest is just derailing. That's really all this comes down to, and needless to say, this is a severe oversimplification. Some writers ignoring logic doesn't mean that lack of logic should become the new standard. Omnipresence scaling, much like any other scaling, should be anylized on a case-by-case basis while accounting for the story around it. Looking at it logically, Solaris's temporal omnipresence is legit, consistant, and stems from the chaos emeralds. The only way the hedgehogs could match him in the story, let alone defeat him as shown in the boss fight, was to use those same emeralds and gain similar traits. That means temporal AoE and immeasurable speed. One by itself isn't enough, and the two are mutually intertwined via Solaris's super-dimensional physiology providing both.

 

[Duedate8898]

Immeasurable is not staying. Numerous times it has been pointed out the flaws with using it as a solution to the problem's presented by Solaris's Temporal Omnipresence. Temporal AOE is being given due to this thead while immeasurable shall be removed. While several users have said they agree with keeping it, several other users and all staff that have come here disagree with immeasurable.

@DarkDragonMedeus Am I right in saying the above?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm going to present more details... again... later. But basically yes. I'm going to point out the "Multiple similarities, would win a race, and arguably better survivability" are indeed true statements; but none of them are concrete evidence it qualifies. And the perceiving part I'll take apart later.

 

[Theuser789]

All I want is an actual explanation on why immesurable isn't valid that goes further than "no, it doesn't fit x standards/how I think the fight should go, etc", so far the only explanation I seen tried to remove actual canon abilities, the burden of proof is on the downgrade side to prove why the feat isn't usable and thus downgrade them, not just "this doesn't fit standards", just explain why, that's all, at least for me

 

[Peptocoptr27]

All I want is an actual explanation on why immesurable isn't valid that goes further than "no, it doesn't fit x standards/how I think the fight should go, etc", so far the only explanation I seen tried to remove actual canon abilities, the burden of proof is on the downgrade side to prove why the feat isn't usable and thus downgrade them, not just "this doesn't fit standards", just explain why, that's all, at least for me

Yeah. I mean no disrespect, but like, that doesn't seem like much to ask for at all

 

[Duedate8898]

All I want is an actual explanation on why immesurable isn't valid that goes further than "no, it doesn't fit x standards/how I think the fight should go, etc", so far the only explanation I seen tried to remove actual canon abilities, the burden of proof is on the downgrade side to prove why the feat isn't usable and thus downgrade them, not just "this doesn't fit standards", just explain why, that's all, at least for me

And it has been explained several times.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

You both say it's not staying as if it's inarguable, but so many experienced members disagree. You also say it's been explained multiple times, but throughout this entire thread, there's only ever been one explenation, which I believe has been debunked. If all of this is explained in a different thread, you should link it, and if immeasurable speed dissapears, there's still infinite speed and temporal OMNIPRESENCE to argue for the Super hedgehogs. Temporal AoE and pseudo-omnipresence would have normally both went with the immeasurable speed starter pack, but if they're just MFTL+, that makes things way more complicated. More than they should be if you ask me

 

[sy6up]

What was the original reason for Immeasurable Speed Sonic?

 

[Axxtentacle]

Why doesn’t the downgrade side just make a “final argument” bit? Summarise your whole point of why it’s specifically not immeasurable speed, and if it makes enough sense, it should get agreed on.

Because seriously, this thread’s been a shitshow. It’s been a bunch of back and forths that hasn’t overall really proved anything to anyone.

 

[Duedate8898]

Immeasurable speed does not help one avoid temporally omnipresent attacks
Depictions on screen of the battle itself does not show anything that indicates immeasurable speed
That's essentially what the argument against immeasurable is.

That was a poorly organized paragraph structure. But none of that is legit Immeasurable speed; it's already been discussed multiple times it doesn't require Immeasurable speeds to fight someone with temporal omnipresence. And the barrier argument really isn't speed at all but AoE. "Solaris doesn't need to physically move to black Sonic's assault" that's not speed at all but just passively blocking it; which is not reactions at all.

But also, an attack that is omnipresent across time and space cannot be dodged period even with Immeasurable speed; it's an AoE attack not a reaction speed feat. But it's only omnipresent on a temporal level and not a spatial level; which is admittedly weird, but an attack like that can still be dodged with someone with regular speed. Having "Temporal omnipresence" is a different ability altogether and doesn't mean anything speed wise. And the rest is still just redundancy, the core argument is still requiring an attack with temporal omnipresent AoE.

These are the core reasons (at least for me) why immeasurable doesn't work here.
Several times, I've personally repeated this.

 

[Axxtentacle]

He’s asking you to explain why, because all that really says is that it doesn’t really fit the standards.

I’m neutral here regarding the rating itself, but do you mind explaining why that’s the case?

 

[Theuser789]

This is exactly what I am talking about, you all are saying that "it's not enough/it doesn't fit standards", all I want is an explanation, that isn't one

 

[Duedate8898]

If it doesn't fit standards and I say why it doesn't fit standards, that's the reason why it can't be immeasurable speed. I don't know how to more clearly communicate this.

The support for immeasurable speed as it stands right now is that since Solaris is temporally omnipresent that the only way to avoid his attacks and combat him is through having immeasurable speed. If this isn't it, please do correct me.

Now, it is then said that to avoid temporal omnipresence, immeasurable does not help due to how immeasurable speed can't be used to move one's past self (also future self) who would still be in the way of the attack if it was dodged. Not just that, but depictions on screen do not indicate anything that would agree with immeasurable speed, and I'm not listing it out again because all of you were there (Theuser789, Axxtentacle, and Peptocoptr27) when these points were tackled previously.

That is the explanation as to why Immeasurable speed does not work. Nothing has been provided to say that it fits the current standards so immeasurable speed should be removed.

If you don't find that satisfactory, then fine, but please do not say that it hasn't been explained why they don't meet the standards. Because it has.

 

[Theuser789]

and I say why it doesn't fit standards,

You never said this

Now, it is then said that to avoid temporal omnipresence, immeasurable does not help due to how immeasurable speed can't be used to move one's past self (also future self) who would still be in the way of the attack if it was dodged.

This doesn't debunk immesurable per say, only that not even immesurable is enough, that's your only reason that you honestly refuse to even accept any counters to this

Not just that, but depictions on screen do not indicate anything that would agree with immeasurable speed, and I'm not listing it out again because all of you were there (Theuser789, Axxtentacle, and Peptocoptr27) when these points were tackled previously.

This isn't an explanation, this is just your interpretation, you didn't explain why it doesn't, it just doesn't indicate in your opinion, and you don't accept any counters to this, completely

That is the explanation as to why Immeasurable speed does not work. Nothing has been provided to say that it fits the current standards so immeasurable speed should be removed.

Stop with this standards, explain why it doesn't fit standards and stop ignoring opposing arguments

If that's the your only reason that that's that, I disagree with you but I can't mind control you and you are extremely close minded about this topic anyways, just note that people are going to question this because those explanations are pretty subpar

 

[Duedate8898]

You never said this

Because even if the present self moves out of the way, immeasurable speed doesn't allow you to move your past self out of the way of an attack. So, past sonic would still get hit. Now immeasurable speed does allow them to dodge after being struck (as strange as that sounds) but they're never depicted as doing anything of the like so there is nothing to back it up there either.

I disagree. When you don't know the answer to a question, you just say you don't know the answer to the question also known as Unknown

Because immeasurable speed only allows you to dodge after being hit, it's never communicated that they were struck in the gameplay then dodged in any form or shape. So the attacks aren't really properly depicted as omnipresent throughout all of time.

Because Immeasurable speed doesn't let you move your past yourself. There would still be an indication that they got hit and then move to avoid it. Especially since you're playing from their perspective. But there is no sign of that ever in the game. Without it, immeasurable speed has no support.

Without indication, we have no visual proof of the hedgehogs being immeasurable. All them dodging without ever showing any signs of being hit does is indicate that the attacks themselves are not omnipresent throughout all of time. And if the developers didn't think of how fast you need to be to dodge something temporally omnipresent, maybe they didn't treat the attacks as temporally omnipresent either. Instead, they just programmed the game so that the models swapped out in place of one another with a press of a button, while never changing anything else due to never thinking about it.

This is me repeating several times why they're on screen showings does not indicate immeasurable speed.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

These are the core reasons (at least for me) why immeasurable doesn't work here.
Several times, I've personally repeated this.

I've debunked both of them, but none of my points were properly addressed. If I need to repeat myself, I'll re-iterate.

"Immeasurable speed does not help one avoid temporally omnipresent attacks
Depictions on screen of the battle itself does not show anything that indicates immeasurable speed
That's essentially what the argument against immeasurable is."

The fact that they can pull off a feat even an immeasurable character shouldn't be capable of just makes this even more impressive. I'm not saying Super Sonic has irrelevant speed or anything. Just look at it this way: If Solaris's temporal omnipresence was across most of time instead of all of it, if he existed everywhen except for the earliest past and the latest future, no one would argue against immeasurable speed since dodging Solaris's attacks would require zipping between the beginning and the end of time constantly and instantly. That's about as Immeasurable as you can get, but since the Super forms' scaling is more impressive than that, it's suddenly innaplicable so they're just MFTL+. That makes no sense. You might say that allowing Super Sonic to upscale from immeasurable also makes no sense, but that's still what the fight implies. Other characters on the Wiki have immeasurable speed via blitzing other immeasurable characters after all, and since VS debating is all about applying logic to feats that scientifically make no sense, why should this be any different? If not that, then it implies the hedgehogs have the same omnipresence as Solaris along with his temporal AoE, which as I already explained, can grant the same benefits as Immeasurable speed. If Super Sonic isn't simply immeasurable, we'd have to create a new speed rank called "omnipresent+" or "omnipresent (through time)". Either way, he should be able to keep up with Immeasurable characters so what's the point? Immeasurable speed by itself can grant users temporal AoE and omnipresence (if the user choses to use it that way) anyway! So there's hardly any difference. If you remove immeasurable speed, you'd have to replace it with temporal AoE AND omnipresence, which in turn would bring Super Sonic's speed rank right back to how it was before this thread and make him even more OP and harder to kill than before. Do you not see the hypocrisy here?

""Solaris doesn't need to physically move to black Sonic's assault" that's not speed at all but just passively blocking it; which is not reactions at all."

It's still reactions because he needs to set up the force field manually, just like Silver does. From the hedgehogs' POV, the forcefield isn't even always there.


"But also, an attack that is omnipresent across time and space cannot be dodged period even with Immeasurable speed; it's an AoE attack not a reaction speed feat. But it's only omnipresent on a temporal level and not a spatial level; which is admittedly weird, but an attack like that can still be dodged with someone with regular speed. Having "Temporal omnipresence" is a different ability altogether and doesn't mean anything speed wise. And the rest is still just redundancy, the core argument is still requiring an attack with temporal omnipresent AoE."

DarkDragon said all of this before my last big paragraph. I feel like I did a good job debunking it, but I'll wait for his response.

 

[Theuser789]

This isn't an explanation, this is just your interpretation, you didn't explain why it doesn't, it just doesn't indicate in your opinion, and you don't accept any counters to this, completely

This doesn't debunk immesurable per say, only that not even immesurable is enough, that's your only reason that you honestly refuse to even accept any counters to this

And this is my reply to this exact line of thinking that you have in that post, all you are saying is that the fight doesn't apply because it doesn't fit how you think how it should go, which is not an explanation, even being a staff member doesn't mean your interpretation is an argument in of itself

Legit just read the rest of my post:

Stop with this standards, explain why it doesn't fit standards and stop ignoring opposing arguments

If that's the your only reason that that's that, I disagree with you but I can't mind control you and you are extremely close minded about this topic anyways, just note that people are going to question this because those explanations are pretty subpar

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Also, immeasurable speed CAN allow you to move your past self and you future self. Time is meaningless to someone with Immeasurable speed. They can just zip back and forth between the beginning and end of time at infinite speeds to simulate temporal omnipresence. That's why Super Sonic had immeasurable speed to begin with. It solves every problem Solaris brought to the table all at once. It can grant temporal AoE (which technically means we don't need to add it to Sonic's profile since he already had it), and temporal omnipresence if Sonic wants it to, which in this case, was necessary. Meanwhile, temporal omnipresence naturally grants temporal AoE and can also grant spatial omnipresence and immeasurable speed benefits if the user wants it to. The same way a character with infinite speed can decide to be omnipresent throughout space by flying through the entire volume of the universe for as long as they want. They become everywhere they want to be by this point, which can be asolutely EVERYWHERE at once given how thier speed litterally has no limit

 

[Duedate8898]

I've debunked both of them, but none of my points were properly addressed. If I need to repeat myself, I'll re-iterate.

The fact that they can pull off a feat even an immeasurable character shouldn't be capable of just makes this even more impressive. I'm not saying Super Sonic has irrelevant speed or anything. Just look at it this way: If Solaris's temporal omnipresence was across most of time instead of all of it, if he existed everywhen except for the earliest past and the latest future, no one would argue against immeasurable speed since dodging Solaris's attacks would require zipping between the beginning and the end of time constantly and instantly. That's about as Immeasurable as you can get, but since the Super forms' scaling is more impressive than that, it's suddenly innaplicable so they're just MFTL+. That makes no sense. You might say that allowing Super Sonic to upscale from immeasurable also makes no sense, but that's still what the fight implies. Other characters on the Wiki have immeasurable speed via blitzing other immeasurable characters after all, and since VS debating is all about applying logic to feats that scientifically make no sense, why should this be any different? If not that, then it implies the hedgehogs have the same omnipresence as Solaris along with his temporal AoE, which as I already explained, can grant the same benefits as Immeasurable speed. If Super Sonic isn't simply immeasurable, we'd have to create a new speed rank called "omnipresent+" or "omnipresent (through time)". Either way, he should be able to keep up with Immeasurable characters so what's the point? Immeasurable speed by itself can grant users temporal AoE and omnipresence (if the user choses to use it that way) anyway! So there's hardly any difference. If you remove immeasurable speed, you'd have to replace it with temporal AoE AND omnipresence, which in turn would bring Super Sonic's speed rank back to the way it was and make him even more OP and harder to kill than before. Do you not see the hypocrisy here?

And I don't agree with your debunk, I believe it wrong.

You say this: If Solaris's temporal omnipresence was across most of time instead of all of it, if he existed everywhen except for the earliest past and the latest future, no one would argue against immeasurable speed since dodging Solaris's attacks would require zipping between the beginning and the end of time constantly and instantly. That's about as Immeasurable as you can get, but since the Super forms' scaling is more impressive than that, it's suddenly innaplicable so they're just MFTL+

And here you seem to be missing the point here: That isn't support for immeasurable speed. This is guesswork. Because immeasurable speed does not allow them to avoid the attacks. Immeasurable speed is not needed to avoid Solaris attacks. Not at all.

Then you say this: Other characters on the Wiki have immeasurable speed via blitzing other immeasurable characters after all, and since VS debating is all about applying logic to feats that scientifically make no sense, why should this be any different? If not that, then it implies the hedgehogs have the same omnipresence as Solaris along with his temporal AoE, which as I already explained, can grant the same benefits as Immeasurable speed.

That logic falls apart because omnipresence isn't a speed. It's even explained in page that omnipresence isn't a speed, it's a state of being that makes speed by in far irrelevant. Not just that, but Solaris possess temporal omnipresence which is directly contradicted by the means of which the hedgehogs have to defeat him, if a single one had temporal omnipresence they wouldn't need anyone else to do battle with Solaris.

And finally you say this: Either way, he should be able to keep up with Immeasurable characters so what's the point? Immeasurable speed by itself can grant users temporal AoE and omnipresence (if the user choses to use it that way) anyway! So there's hardly any difference. If you remove immeasurable speed, you'd have to replace it with temporal AoE AND omnipresence, which in turn would bring Super Sonic's speed rank back to the way it was and make him even more OP and harder to kill than before. Do you not see the hypocrisy here?

Immeasurable speed in no way or shape grants omnipresence nor does it grant temporal AoE. I don't know where you got this idea, but nowhere on the page nor does any character that currently has immeasurable speed is considered to somehow be abler to give themselves either of what you mentioned due to their speed. And while Solaris might be temporally omnipresnce, that doesn't mean it thinks at immeasurable speed. It gives no indication at what speed a character thinks at all.

And this is my reply to this exact line of thinking that you have in that post, all you are saying is that the fight doesn't apply because it doesn't fit how you think how it should go, which is not an explanation, even being a staff member doesn't mean your interpretation is an argument in of itself

Legit just read the rest of my post:

And all you're saying is that his fight applies because you think that it does fit how it should go. That's literally all that this is and that doesn't invalidate either of our arguments.

Also, immeasurable speed CAN allow you to move your past self and you future self. Time is meaningless to someone with Immeasurable speed. They can just zip back and forth between the beginning and end of time at infinite speeds to simulate temporal omnipresence. That's why Super Sonic had immeasurable speed to begin with. It solves every problem Solaris brought to the table all at once. It can grant temporal AoE (which technically means we don't need to add it to Sonic's profile since he already had it), and temporal omnipresence if Sonic wants it to, which in this case, was necessary. Meanwhile, temporal omnipresence naturally grants temporal AoE and can also grant spatial omnipresence and immeasurable speed benefits if the user wants it to. The same way a character with infinite speed can decide to be omnipresent throughout space by flying through the entire volume of the universe for as long as they want. They become everywhere they want to be by this point, which can be asolutely EVERYWHERE at once given how thier speed litterally has no limit

No, immeasurable speed doesn't give you the ability to move your past self and future self. Never is that said on the page, I don't think its ever been said in any thread before this one, and I bet you can't find any instance (that is not this very one you're trying to argue) where that's ever been shown. And the characters wouldn't be simulating temporal omnipresence, they'd be simulating full-on omnipresence if what you said worked. Even more, if even a single one of them were able to do that, the hedgehogs wouldn't acquire all three of them to battle Solaris, only one of them would be needed, so your argument falls apart even there.

 

[Theuser789]

And all you're saying is that his fight applies because you think that it does fit how it should go. That's literally all that this is and that doesn't invalidate either of our arguments.

Bro, you just parroted what I said, damm, as I said, since this a downgrade thread the burden of proof to explain on why something isn't immesurable is on the downgrade side, you all need to make a post explaining why this feat doesn't reach the standards, why the fight doesn't work as a immesurable should go, which you haven't, you have stated stuff, but not backed up your points, just being staff doesn't mean you can just say stuff and that be evidence by itself, especially when the burden of proof is on you, and I can guarante we at least explained why what we say is immesurable, unlike the opposition. I already know the downgrade is going anyways, I want this out of cortesy and because people will complain later

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That's what we've been doing from the start and it's getting us nowhere. We're already at page 8 of this thread. We need to look at the bigger picture if we want to settle this for real.

Just because many franchises screw up the logistics of temporal omnipresence doesn't mean we should throw every feat under the bus, especially those who have pretty solid backbone to them and pretty much no contradictions.

So is this the difference that I asked you to specify in my last post? I don't get it. All I see when I read this is "Immeasurable characters need to physically move in order to be beyond linear time, while Solaris doesn't even need to lift a finger"

I'd have to see an example of this to see how it compares to what we're currently discussing.

I actually agree in the sense that space-omnis should tie in a race againsts someone with infinite speed. Time-omnis like Solaris are the same, but with Immeasurables. This makes more sense when you keep in mind that space is a 3D concept, while time is a 4D one. Let's compare the benefits of infinite speed to those of space omnipresence to paint a clearer picture and then we'll get to the part where we start to disagree.

Infinite speed:
++ Can travel to any destination within a 3D space in a litteral instant
++ Can see anyone with a finite speed rank as completely frozen
++ Can cross infinite distances
++ Should be able to replicate a space-omni's benefits by moving through the entire volume of the universe for as long as they need (given said universe is finite or they don't suffer from the drawback seen directly below ⬇)
-- May require a finite time frame to cross an infinite distance for some reason
-- Initially lack the same sense of awareness that space-omnis have
-- Appear completely frozen to immeasurable characters
-- Without context, should be assumed to have far worse survivabillity than a space-omni

Space omnipresence (within 1 universe):
++ Already where they need to be before the infinite thinks of going there
++ Depending on the cosmology of thier verse, may occupy an infinite space
++ Should be able to attack at infinite speed (in theory)
++ Can see and feel everything everywhere, granting better awareness instantly
++ Without context, should be assumed to have far better survivabillity than an infinite (needs to be killed everywhere in space)
-- Doesn't necessarily see characters of finite speed as statues
-- May be limited in thier attack speed due to bad writing

Now let's compare that to the differences between an immeasurable and a time-omni so I can properly convey why I think temporal omnipresence does at least grant infinite reaction speed

Immeasurable:
++ Can travel to any destination within a 4D space in an instant
++ Can see anyone with a finite or infinite speed rank as frozen
++ Can dodge an attack that's already hit them (in theory)
++ Can replicate the benits of an infinite, and a space-omni
++ Should be able to replicate the benefits of a time-omni by travelling between the beginning and end of time at infinite speeds (given that time in said timeline isn't endless or they don't suffer from the drawback seen directly below ⬇)
-- May require a finite time frame to travel through an infinite amount of time for some reason
-- Initially lack the awareness that time-omnis have
-- May not be able to dodge an attack that's already hit them due to bad writing
-- Without context, should be assumed to have far worse survivabillity than a time-omni

Time-omni (accross all of time):
++ Already where and when they need to be before the immeasurable thinks of going there (they already reached thier destination in the very beginning of time)
++ Can see anyone with a finite speed rank as frozen (due to thier future actions being seen in excruciating detail by the time-omni down to the smallest imaginable time frame)
++ Can replicate the benefits of an infinite and a space-omni via always staying where they were and already being where they're going (should they choose to fill the entire volume of the universe with thier presence, they can, and since they're already present in the future, the time that they would normally take to do so is irrelevant)
++ Can see and feel everything and around them accross every time period at once, and can spread this superior awareness across the universe simply through moving at thier own pace by virtue of already being in the future
++Without context, should have far better survivabillity than an immeasurable (needs to be killed everywhen in time)




It is, actually. If you attack him in the present (whatever "your" present may be), Solaris would be able to see exactly what you, and every other living thing that ever was in his line of sight, is up to. He would know what they've done, what they're doing , and what they will do in that place. He'll know what your exact intentions are in less than an instant before you know it yourself, and yeet a meteor at your past, present and future self all at once. Unless you're immeasurable AND capable of hitting someone through multiple points in time, how do you stand a chance against him?

I've proven my positive so the ball is in your court

Except we clearly see that Solaris's attacks are in every point in time at once when you switch to a character in a different time period, and Solaris would have to be really stupid to just attack and at one point in time when he exists in all of them. The same can be said for other omnipresent characters who attack in only one spot, but again, I haven't seen any example and we can't disregard every feat involving omnipresence just because some writers don't know how it specifically works. I can't believe I'm saying this, but Sonic 06's writers somewhat succeeded where many others failed.

I may have dug myself in a deep hole I won’t escape by starting a keyboard war of huge paragraphs, but I really feel it's the only way to finally truly settle this. I know that immeasurable Sonic is going to be brought up in threads for all of eternity if we don't throw everything on the table in this one. If you have any better solution, I'd be glad to hear it, and if anyone is willing to take my place in case I get tired of this conversation, I would greatly appreciate it

First of all, I'm commenting on the "Just because other verses screwed it up, doesn't mean we should throw everything under the bus". I mean no offence, but this sounds like cherry picking. But I'll actually explain other details regardless.

As for the next line, think of it this way. A character with FTL reactions would still need to physically react to dodge a light speed laser fired right in front of their face. But an intangible character doesn't need FTL reactions since the light speed character just goes right through them. Which brings to the point that Omnipresence nor Nigh-Omnipresence isn't speed at all; it's just large size combined with spatial intangibility is what omnipresence is. Same with attack speed vs AoE; Immeasurable attack speeds can strike even if they already dodged an attack, but doesn't always hit all time periods. Where as an EE attack that erases people from the pages of history has temporal AoE but not always Immeasurable. But on to some future points.

That was @Antoniofer whom I asked, so maybe he can help out here. But he appears that he doesn't really want to respond to this thread. Which I won't force him, but would be much appreciated. However, examples I can think of Squall keeping up with Ultimecia. The former is omnipresent across all time and space in her final form, yet her attacks are dodgable by those with finite speeds. Or same with various attacks that strike all time periods when hit such as omnipresent wide existence erasure. It strikes an infinite time periods of the target, but may need to hit a present time period to take effect. But I don't have much more against Solaris just with those details.

Now with the events, he listed the pros and cons with Infinite speed vs Spatial omnipresent characters. Then he listed pros and cons for Immeasurable speed vs pros and no cons with those omnipresent across time and space. Which the latter has several loop holes. Actually, it's necessarily bad writing to dodge attacks that already struck them, it's more so the characters are so fast that finite speed characters perceive it that way. Or that a different time period version simply moved their present self out of the way or repelled the attack. But that's clarifying one of Immeasurable's actual "Pros". Or debunking a Con, not being able to dodge an attack that already hit them is just an argument against Immeasurable. Or one of their past selves isn't Immeasurable all the time. Such as the case for Wally West; he can only sometimes reach Immeasurable speeds if the Speed Force allows him to. Or Immeasurable speed characters can sometimes kill themselves by accident due to lacking Acausality.

Now to debunk a pro on the Space-Time Omnipresent side. They actually don't perceive Finite speed characters as frozen, they just see an infinite number of said characters across an infinite number of time periods. It's more related to cosmic awareness rather Immeasurable speed in which they perceive the past, present, and future as just the present. They predict everything, before hand, but physically don't always move or attack at Immeasurable speeds. They don't move and they can even properly set up a average human attack speed projectile to strike a Infinite speed character easily due to having access to all periods and proper reaching. But at the same time, it's dependent on more loopholes.

And there's also cons for having omnipresence, they do not actually move; though they don't need to move. And they only win the race by nature that they have the entire race track inside them, not because they're physically capable of running or both physically mentally capable of reacting as said speeds. They're physical movement speed is immobile and their combat speed is unknown without further context. And while some people think interpreting omnipresent cosmic awareness would still mean they perceive characters as being in an infinite number of places all at once; that's not really speed but it could be seen as perception. Though I'm skeptical about that qualifying as Immeasurable perception too, but even if it did, perception =/= reaction speed. Perception just means you see faster but doesn't always mean you physically react to it, where as reaction requires a physical reaction.

Also, there's been a lot of burden of proof fallacies no offence. I sort of get what the opposing side is saying because the OP intends to downgrade. But that's not how proving a negative means. The OP is basically saying that the opposing side should prove their positive to defend against the downgrade. The negative is fighting someone with temporal omnipresence doesn't qualify as Immeasurable speed where as the positive is saying it does. And the policies outright state temporal omnipresence =/= Immeasurable. Other problems with Pep's comments also assumes Solaris has time and space omnipresence when it's agreed he's only omnipresent across time. Meaning he's finite sized physically an as perceived by 3 dimensional beings; but he exists on past, present, and future as if all periods are just the present. Also, time is distorted, which creates even more doubt for Infinite or Immeasurable speeds. Meteors do attack the past, present, and future, but as Antoniofer said that's proof it has temporal AoE but not proof it attacks all time periods. The Hedgehogs aren't assume to exist across all time periods, though they obviously can attack across all time periods. And it's still not proof the meteors travel as Infinite or Immeasurable speeds.

Anyway, I'm quite tired of repeating myself especially with a bunch of stuff already going on both IRL and on the wiki all at once, nor do I expect the thread to end any time soon, which is why I wish more staff members would give input. But I'll need other things perhaps. @Eficiente @Matthew_Schroeder @Wokistan @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @SomebodyData @The_real_cal_howard @Ryukama @WeeklyBattles @Abstractions @Damage3245 do any of you have any thoughts?

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Yup this thread can be summed up as: Immeasurable speed is going and there's nothing the supporters can do about it, so deal with it.

Honestly this is a much bigger Wiki issue in general considering how the goal posts keep (periodically) getting changed and preconceived notions take priority over accuracy or evidence which only comes off as disingenuous (regardless if that wasn't the intention).

I'm not going to reopen old wounds since we've done this song and dance for way too long but I'm ngl this downgrade kinda hurt...

Just another thing I can add to the list of ratings I disagree with on this Wiki. Don't take this snarky comment too seriously folks.

 

[JJSliderman]

The fact this is going and Persona and Blazblue are keeping/getting it kinda hurts.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I still think that Immeasurable needs to go down, no discussion.

 

[Theuser789]

Also, time is distorted, which creates even more doubt for Infinite or Immeasurable speeds.

People stop using this argument, like seriously, this already has been explained how time wasn't distorded where the fight actualy took place, this is misleading for anyone who reads your post, if you think this is a valid point then adress the counters

Also drop this "proving the negative", this is one of the most misused arguments I seen when the opposition doesn't want to debate, the pro side already proven their points, however the opposite side has not proven their claims when countering it, instead making arguments based on authority based on "standards", the burden of proof is on you now, a negative shouldn't necessaraly be proven however when it is countered it has to be

In court the defendant lawyer doesn't need to prove that their client is innocent, however they have too after the prosecution has show evidence, simply saying "I don't need to prove a negative" wouldn't work in that case

Like seriously, I already accepted immesurable is going, I am saying you need to explain shit because in the future there will be people confused and questioning this, heck in this thread this has happened before it even finished, explaining it does more good for you than it does for me

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I also brought other points for what it's still not Immeasurable speed + the rules.

It is commonly assumed that characters who are omnipresent across both space and time would be able to act and react much more quickly than regular characters, by virtue of their sheer size, but this is not always backed up by the source material. Though the nature of their existence makes fighting and harming them difficult for conventional fighters, requiring the use of abilities capable of affecting their entire being, as well as the ability to dodge their potentially omnipresent attacks, it is not necessarily impossible, as an omnipresent character's reaction time may still be limited.

This should all be analyzed on a case by case basis - omnipresent characters cannot be automatically assumed to have Infinite or Immeasurable speeds, and attacks coming from them do not necessarily cover the entire universe or multiverse. Some attacks can even be temporally but not spatially omnipresent, and these attacks do not necessarily move through space at Infinite or Immeasurable speeds. Despite the difficulty, it is possible for characters with certain abilities, such as Acausality, Cosmic Awareness, and Dimensional Travel, along with sufficient area of effect or hax, to keep up with omnipresent characters with measurable reaction and attack speeds.

I do retract all Acausality assumptions, but other details I mentioned still suffice.

 

[Duedate8898]

People stop using this argument, like seriously, this already has been explained how time wasn't distorded where the fight actualy took place, this is misleading for anyone who reads your post, if you think this is a valid point then adress the counters

Also drop this "proving the negative", this is one of the most misused arguments I seen when the opposition doesn't want to debate, the pro side already proven their points, however the opposite side has not proven their claims when countering it, instead making arguments based on authority based on "standards", the burden of proof is on you now, a negative shouldn't necessaraly be proven however when it is countered it has to be

In court the defendant lawyer doesn't need to prove that their client is innocent, however they have too after the prosecution has show evidence, simply saying "I don't need to prove a negative" wouldn't work in that case

Like seriously, I already accepted immesurable is going, I am saying you need to explain shit because in the future there will be people confused and questioning this, heck in this thread this has happened before it even finished, explaining it does more good for you than it does for me

Shadow is directly quoted as saying the instability of time caused this time-space rift, which pretty clearly indicates that both time and space, not to mention the strange state of the world they're all located in.

It's already been clearly explained why Solaris was losing immeasurable in the first place, their old reasoning no longer works so new reasoning needed to be found. Your side tried to provide it, and it wasn't accepted. As the post above mines indicates and what has been said by myself and dragon, you haven't found or provided anything that would help indicate immeasurable speed.

 

[Theuser789]

Shadow is directly quoted as saying the instability of time caused this time-space rift, which pretty clearly indicates that both time and space, not to mention the strange state of the world they're all located in

Solaris wasn't in the intersection, he was clearly outside of it, that already debunks your point, if Solaris was inside of it he wouldn't use his eyes to attack it

DDM, using your own standards that you made mid debate isn't a completely good reasoning, but I tried, just be prepared to debate this in the future, that's all

 

[Duedate8898]

Solaris wasn't in the intersection, he was clearly outside of it, that already debunks your point, if Solaris was inside of it he wouldn't use his eyes to attack it

So, time-space everywhere but in that one area with Solaris was distorted? That's what you want to go with?

 

[Theuser789]

So, time-space everywhere but in that one area with Solaris was distorted? That's what you want to go with?

I am going with canon, that space was only distorted in that area, geez you completely inverted my point

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I didn't "Make" per say. And those were words Promestein wrote those words based on descriptions I made; but I actually talked about it with a couple staff members (Current and former) on Discord. And I have been discussing that for years with other staff even before this thread was made. And I got a kudos from Damage; not saying that means anything though.

 

[Theuser789]

Meh, it's alright, I just don't think that's the most convincing evidence but that's just me

Anyways if nobody else has anything to say then we should start the downgrade and note temporal AoE

 

[ShakeResounding]

And is this Type 2 Acausality coming into play or what? I haven't been keeping up with the thread for the last page or so lol.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Solaris not being in the intersection is made clear in the cutscenes, as only its shadow appearing from outside the bubble is shown before and after the fight. Cutscenes come before gameplay.

So, time-space everywhere but in that one area with Solaris was distorted? That's what you want to go with?

The intersection topic was already addressed 1st page of this thread. Also saying "That's what you want to go with?", completely ignores every other person in this thread that has already talked about this point. Bad staff bad.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I leave for just a few hours and suddenly all hope is lost. We can't reason we the mods so we must give up. Bruh. I'm gonna be really honest. I'm salty because feel silenced. That's an issue I've seen former VS Battle Wiki users bring up and I didn't think it would be that bad untl I saw it for myself. If there's really nothing I can do, then I'll stop wasting my time and start doing something more productive with my life, but I'll let you know I had already started typing up a response and I noticed you both mis-interpreted several of my points and more and more signs of hypocrisy started showing up within your arguments. I still strongly beleive you can't attribute a finite speed value to Super Sonic's peek, and the closer I get to proving it, the more persistant you are about ending this thread and going through with the downgrade.

 

[Duedate8898]

Solaris not being in the intersection is made clear in the cutscenes, as only its shadow appearing from outside the bubble is shown before and after the fight. Cutscenes come before gameplay.

The intersection topic was already addressed 1st page of this thread. Also saying "That's what you want to go with?", completely ignores every other person in this thread that has already talked about this point. Bad staff bad.

And just because it was addressed doesn't mean I agree with it. Not only is there a direct statement that they're in a place where space-time is distorted, but since the entire world has been ruined it would be strange for Solaris to just have one area that also isn't being affected by them trying to destroy all of the timelines.

And I'm not ignoring every other person, I was just addressing Theuser because he's the one who pushed back against the claim when it was brought up here.