Truth Seeking Balls Electric Boogaloo

[Reio35]

Please note.

We have a CRT that was accepted that showed that chakra and souls are 1 and the same.

We know damn well that TSO affects chakra. Chakra = Souls. TSO affects souls.

Take your negative energy somewhere else.

Please note.

We have a CRT that was accepted that showed that chakra and souls are 1 and the same.

We know damn well that TSO affects chakra. Chakra = Souls. TSO affects souls.

Take your negative energy somewhere else.

Chakra and tsb affecting directs souls is wrong unless you're using a specific jutsu like toska blade or reaper death seal. It establish that justu has no effect on souls

So here are souls completely bypassing chakra barriers and physical objects proving naruto characters can not interact with souls. Unless they use special justu.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

also the soul manipulation they got was only for them manipulating their own souls to create chakra

 

[Reio35]

Im fine with that actual

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

This is wrong cuz there's literally no feats backing this up

Like we already mentioned here:

No you are getting it the other way round. Yin-Yang release is literally reality warping as it is the ability to give imagination form due to the combination. Creation of all thing was derived of this and izanagi is a lesser copy. TSO are another copy but closer to Creation which is why they can form into other objects: see Toneri. You won't give people size manipulation from Yang release because the size manipulation is a derivation of giving something form. Which is what Yang release is.

Reality warping is the basis for the other abilities and where they come from.

here:

Like Rocker said, Yin-Yang Release is literally creating form out of nothing and giving Life to the lifeless, which we've seen numerous times through many different applications.
Izanagi is an obvious example, as it is a derivative of Creation of All Things.
Naruto's healing abilities are also another example of Yin-Yang Release being Reality Warping-esq due to it being able to create form (in this case organs) out of nothing, and restore/instill life into other as he did with Guy.

All of the abilities of the TSBs are based in Yin-Yang release, and thus in RW. All we're doing is just indexing these abilities, so again the RW aspect won't be combat applicable here.

The Transmutation section illustrates the form out of nothing property pretty well I think, because the TSBs were shown to instantly gain mass out of nowhere and completely alter their physical properties.

and here:

The TSB is stated to be comprised of all nature transformations (Fire, Wind, Lightning, Water, and Earth) alongside Yin-Yang Release. Also stated in the same text to be capable of using a variety of effects due to all the natures in it, which supports its ability to perform a variety of intended effects as we'll go over here. The TSBs containing Yin-Yang Release is very crucial because we know that Yin-Yang Release is what was used for Hagoromo's strongest ability "Creation of all Things" which is a reality warping ability superior to Izanagi. Similarly to it's much inferior derivative, Izanagi, Creation of All Things can alter reality based on the user's wishes to achieve a variety of effects. A good example of Ying-Yang performing Reality Warping feats would be Naruto using "Creation of All Things" to recreate Kakashi's eye out of thin air and reversing the certain death after effects of opening the 8th Gate that were going to turn Might Guy to literal ash.

Yin-Yang Release has literally only ever been showcased and used to perform Reality Warping-esq abilities, and nothing else, and it so happens to be a principle component in the TSB's structure.
Again, this wouldn't be applicable RW like we already said, but RW that has very specific functions that we already highlighted in the OP based on the abilities the TSBs showcased directly.

toneri creating cages and elements with is irrelevant cuz he simply manipulates nature types. As tsb has all nature types.

The Toneri example is mainly used here to highlight Transmutation more so than RW, but I only brought it up because it is technically Toneri fundamentally changing the TSB's properties completely beyond what should be possible with any of the regular 5 Nature Transformations. Still though, it's pretty much just Transmutation like I said, so idk why you mentioned it in your "Reality Warping Debunk" to be honest.

Obito can rewrite his own death while naruto who apparently has the full application cant even make an arm and has to get one specially made from hashi cells.

I'm honestly not even sure what you mean by Obito rewriting his own death. Do you mean how he survived the Juubi's extraction? Because he was still dying, but the Six Paths Chakra he absorbed from Madara, and later on the Chakra/healing he received from Naruto and Sakura, was merely extending his life a bit, but he was still dying slowly. In any case, I'm not sure exactly how this example is relevant.
As for Naruto, his healing ability having limitations is also in no way shape or form a "debunk". Reality Warping can still be limited in its applications, but still be RW. That's what the "Limited" rating is for.

First of all theirs is nothing indicating this argument is entirely head canon

Someone needs to read the OP......

The databook statement of the orb reducing everything to nothing is a hyperbole as zetsu saids "its the Start of a new time space" and naruto and sasuke would also be needed as sacrifices. Starting something does not mean complete or finishing so its not reducing everything to nothing.

Those are all unsubstantiated assumptions.
Start of a new Space-Time when referring to a pre-existing Space-Time Continuum (The Root Dimension in this case), is pretty much confirmation that it'll be destroyed and recreated, or else it wouldn't be new at all, now would it? The statement is clear as day, and it's already accepted here that the dimension was going to be completely destroyed and recreated.
Naruto and Sasuke being used as "sacrifices" is just flowery language to indicate they'll be killed by the ETSB, that's all.

And kaguya also stated to survive its destruction because of her immortality if it reduced everything to nothing how is she surviving?

You do realize Kaguya is immune to the ETSB's hax becasue she possesses Six Paths Chakra right? So to her it's just a standard attack that'll obliterate her body, which is why she currently has Mid-High Regeneration.

And the databook scan also contradicted itself. Cuz its stated it would reshape the world instead of turning it to nothing

It states both actually, so that's a moot point since we know it'll destroy the dimension (turn to nothing) and then recreate it (reshape), so there's no contradiction.

Also if we look at the raw scans of zetsu saying "its the start of a new time space" it actually doesn't even say time space it saids space as this kanji means space 空間
scan. And to add to the fire these are none official translations

Okay, so? Saying it's a different Space or a different Time-Space is pretty much interchangeable in fiction anyway.
Yes, these aren't official translations, but they're the best we have to work with since the DB hasn't been translated in 7 years at this point. I don't see what comparing a bunch unofficial translations will achieve at this point.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Chakra and tsb affecting directs souls is wrong unless you're using a specific jutsu like toska blade or reaper death seal. It establish that justu has no effect on souls

So here are souls completely bypassing chakra barriers and physical objects proving naruto characters can not interact with souls. Unless they use special justu.

First of all, please resize that image because it's making navigating the thread kind of inconvenient. Thank you.

Now, there's no need to discuss the Soul related topic because that was already concluded and accepted in another thread, and has no bearing on this one, so it's practically derailment.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Uchiha went and dropped Side A and Side B of the mixtape.

 

[KingTempest]

I won't even take my time to debunk that.

You used a random light in the sky to prove souls ≠ chakra.

Prove that light is a soul and we're good

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

There's a soul illuminating my room right now.

jk, I have jokes. No disrespect intended, btw

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

So what's left to discuss?

 

[Damage3245]

At this point I think the only thing in the OP that I disagree with is Space-Time Manipulation for users of ordinary Truth-Seeking Balls.

Unless it is a "Possibly" ability.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I'd settle for possibly tbh.

 

[Slacjow]

At this point I think the only thing in the OP that I disagree with is Space-Time Manipulation for users of ordinary Truth-Seeking Balls.

Unless it is a "Possibly" ability.

Why do you disagree?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

At this point I think the only thing in the OP that I disagree with is Space-Time Manipulation for users of ordinary Truth-Seeking Balls.

Unless it is a "Possibly" ability.

I would prefer a "Likely" to be honest because both the manga and Databook support the prospect that the ETSB is exactly the same as the regular TSBs aside from size; however, if everyone else thinks "Possibly" is more suitable as well, then I'm completely fine with it.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

I don't think it should have a likely or possibly, its flat out said in canon that they are the same.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I don't think it should have a likely or possibly, its flat out said in canon that they are the same.

Yes, I also don't think the compromise is necessary due to how direct the statement is, buuuut ¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Yes, I also don't think the compromise is necessary due to how direct the statement is, buuuut ¯\(ツ)/¯

There's no justification to compromise when we have two direct statements from the canon material.

 

[Rocker1189]

Honestly I personally don't mind a likely/possibly. I can understand the concerns

 

[Slacjow]

TSB should get solid abilities from ETSB if we go by statements and implications from the manga and databook.
But likely is fine if everyone agrees.

 

[Damage3245]

That doesn't mean they have the same essential abilities. They're drastically different in at least one aspect, and nowhere is it stated that the ordinary Truth-Seeking Balls are capable of affecting time, or space or space-time at any point.

It wouldn't be worthwhile including it as a solid ability.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Yeah, I feel like "Possibly" would completely dismiss two very straightforward canon statements, so I'm in favor of solid abilities or at least a "Likely".

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah, I feel like "Possibly" would completely dismiss two very straightforward canon statements, so I'm in favor of solid abilities or at least a "Likely".

How would it be dismissing them? Those two statements are the only reason why a "Possibly" would be allowed. Also, one of those statements comes from Naruto of all people who is not knowledgeable on the subject.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

They're drastically different in at least one aspect,

Just one, literally.

Not to mention, the regular TSB have also shown the ability to expand btw, just not to the ETSB's level which is simply due to the massive difference in chakra used to create the ETSB.

It's like saying the Odama Rasengan and Regular Rasengan are fundamentally different.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Also, one of those statements comes from Naruto of all people who is not knowledgeable on the subject.

How is he not knowledgeable on the subject? He can literally use the technique....

 

[Damage3245]

How is he not knowledgeable on the subject? He can literally use the technique....

Since when does using the technique mean you have a full understanding of how it works? It seems like the Truth-Seeking Balls just appeared automatically once he unlocked Six Paths Sage Mode.

 

[KingTempest]

How is he not knowledgeable on the subject? He can literally use the technique....

Yeah even though I agree w/ them getting it, Naruto's not a reliable source. This argument is moot.

Naruto didn't even know how he healed Kakashi's eye and was surprised that he was flying. He's not good at all.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Naruto didn't even know how he healed Kakashi's eye and was surprised that he was flying. He's not good at all

He knew how he healed it, but just couldn't put it into words. He also got the hang of flight instantly and subconsciously. All this supports subconscious mastery and understanding of his abilities, which is supported by the Databook.

It's a common trope for characters to immediately master and understand new power ups, and the exact same thing happened with Madara and Obito once they got SPSM.

 

[Axxtentacle]

The only real reason to say that it wouldn't be a solid ability is "I don't think so". I really don't think the speculation with it is necessary.

 

[Damage3245]

The only real reason to say that it wouldn't be a solid ability is "I don't think so". I really don't think the speculation with it is necessary.

I think it's more speculative to give a non-applicable Space-Time Manipulation ability to Naruto/Toneri/Madara's Truth-Seeking Balls when it's never been suggested they can use their TSB's like that.

Just because somebody has the potential for an ability, doesn't mean they can use it. I get indexing for the sake of completion, but this is taking indexing to an unreasonable degree. It's nothing stronger than a possibility that they can use it like that IMO.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Yeah, that's more fair. If we're putting it as a possibly/likely then i'm ok with that, unless someone can definitively prove anything.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

I'm in favor of likely.

 

[Reio35]

Ill make another counter soon

 

[PsychoWarper]

I think likely would be fair.

 

[Reio35]

I'll agree on the reality warping after seeing the toneri make a cage,but only for him cuz he's the only one doing so. So depending on the user they can use very limited reality warping.

However i don't not agree on tso affecting space-time as I proved in my earlier post. The viz translation of "time-space"does not mean space-time but rather just space as the kanji used meant "space" but the word space in it of itself can mean many things. Like the space of a room or a planet ect. Kaguya is stated to have an ice world,lava world ect that's obviously not referring to the whole dimension as hers, just the planets. Amado even says they're just aliens who eat plants. So to say they destroy an entire universe space-time. Is very inconsistent.
Also might guy warped madaras tso staff proving tso does not compare to even spatial manipulation so how can it destroy time and space?
And like i said in last argument tso is not reducing the world to nothing cuz. Saying its the start of a new time-space does not mean it has completed a time-space.

And to kingtempest argument. Claiming cuz tso has chakra it should affect souls. I don't agree with this cuz its consistently shown characters with charka have no resistance to astral/spiritual attacks. Like pain using the outer path to snatch souls,the reaper death seal,ghost transformation justu which is immune to all physical attacks. And tsb is stated to have physical existence

So yeah no,void,spatial,soul or even EE.

 

[M3X_2.0]

generic bleach fan and naruto hater

 

[KingTempest]

I'll agree on the reality warping after seeing the toneri make a cage,

This is so wrong. This is transmutation. They get reality warp for a completely different reason.

but only for him cuz he's the only one doing so.

They're all using the same thing. Different user argument doesn't matter.

So depending on the user they can use very limited reality warping.

The headassery.

However i don't not agree on tso affecting space-time as I proved in my earlier post. The viz translation of "time-space"does not mean space-time but rather just space as the kanji used meant "space" but the word space in it of itself can mean many things.Like the space of a room or a planet ect. Kaguya is stated to have an ice world,lava world ect that's obviously not referring to the whole dimension as hers, just the planets. Amado even says they're just aliens who eat plants. So to say they destroy an entire universe space-time. Is very inconsistent.

Sensible statement, but don't use viz, they're goofy.

Also might guy warped madaras tso staff proving tso does not compare to even spatial manipulation so how can it destroy time and space?

All because it can be warped means that it's not able to affect space-time? What?

And like i said in last argument tso is not reducing the world to nothing cuz. Saying its the start of a new time-space does not mean it has completed a time-space.

I personally don't agree with "start of a new time space" being a start of a new time-space for different reasons, but you need much better reasons and proof.

And to kingtempest argument. Claiming cuz tso has chakra it should affect souls. I don't agree with this cuz its consistently shown characters with charka have no resistance to astral/spiritual attacks. Like pain using the outer path to snatch souls,the reaper death seal,ghost transformation justu which is immune to all physical attacks.

This didn't counter my argument at all.
Chakra and souls are 1 and the same. Physical bodies aren't chakra.
That's like saying "this fire isn't going to burn a person since water is able to put it out". You see how that makes no sense? Yeah.
Or why do you suggest Naruto yanked his soul back using chakra against Nagato?

Reaper death seal is the reason why it got accepted. Reaper death seals rip out souls. Kurama is purely chakra. It ripped out his chakra. Soul.
Ghost transformation jutsu can be blocked by chakra seals like the barrier that was used to block it, which Dan asked to take the barrier so he could leave.

And tsb is stated to have physical existence

What does this have to do with anything? That means it exists to where we can touch it.

No one said the orb wasn't a physical thing, we said it can affect a space-time.
Goku has a physical existence and he's able to affect space-times. Keep going.

So yeah no,void,spatial,soul or even EE.

You have some of the worst counters I've ever seen. Stop it.

 

[BlackeJan]

Ending this man whole career

 

[The_Alxhemist]

Which is why I think that's what we should stick with. We could head-canon Obito cutting souls in half and that'd be a fine interpretation.... but I don't think that belongs on the profile.

It's not really headcanon or that much of a stretch when Obito literally likened the Sword of Nunbunko (is that correct?) to a soul sword.
He quite literally said that moments after he popped it out, backed up with the CRT that concludes Chakra = Souls and a Minato that was freed from the Edo Tensei justu was still missing his arm, it's quite clear it affects souls.

 

[The_Alxhemist]

So to say they destroy an entire universe space-time. Is very inconsistent.

Like literally no one said this tho.

 

[KingTempest]

And to kingtempest argument. Claiming cuz tso has chakra it should affect souls.

Please note.
This is not a claim.
This is something approved already via a content revision thread, just like this one.
In late November of 2020, I created a CRT with 8 people agreeing to soul manip and 2 people disagreeing, who changed later on.
Basically, no one disagreed. It was unanimous.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/chakra-and-the-soul-for-naruto-at-least.109635/

You can't "debunk" my claim in this thread. You would need to make your own thread on it, since now, it's stuck in stone that chakra = souls in Naruto.
Basically, don't debunk me, make a CRT.

Don't debunk me, make a CRT

 

[Reio35]

This is so wrong. This is transmutation. They get reality warp for a completely different reason.

They're all using the same thing. Different user argument doesn't matter.

The headassery.

Sensible statement, but don't use viz, they're goofy.

All because it can be warped means that it's not able to affect space-time? What?

I personally don't agree with "start of a new time space" being a start of a new time-space for different reasons, but you need much better reasons and proof.

This didn't counter my argument at all.
Chakra and souls are 1 and the same. Physical bodies aren't chakra.
That's like saying "this fire isn't going to burn a person since water is able to put it out". You see how that makes no sense? Yeah.
Or why do you suggest Naruto yanked his soul back using chakra against Nagato?

Reaper death seal is the reason why it got accepted. Reaper death seals rip out souls. Kurama is purely chakra. It ripped out his chakra. Soul.
Ghost transformation jutsu can be blocked by chakra seals like the barrier that was used to block it, which Dan asked to take the barrier so he could leave.

What does this have to do with anything? That means it exists to where we can touch it.

No one said the orb wasn't a physical thing, we said it can affect a space-time.
Goku has a physical existence and he's able to affect space-times. Keep going.

You have some of the worst counters I've ever seen. Stop it.

Lmao you didn't debunk any of my claims

Dan didn't ask him to bring down the barrier so he can leave. It was cuz he wasn't a threat anymore. Plz read the chapter. Like i showed on my first argument you see souls ascending out of sealing justu. Itachi's hand bypassed sasuke and his charka networks. Tailed beast being spirits is false or an outliar as they are affected by physical attacks. As showed before souls and naruto can't be touched physically. If chakra affected souls edo tensie should have died from the biju bombs.

Tso is a considered physical object yet it is made from charka. That means chakra is considered physical. Guy bending the space around tso means tso can't destroy space itself.