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Plot Manipulation Standards

Firephoenixearl said:
Ah yes, i remembered. Jill Presto/Bassanos. She does that with fate manip iirc.

Also idk watchu playin at, but get them Maou oppai off of my face.
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That just seems like it's classified incorrectly, but idk her and there is no further explanation, so idk.

Edit: I suppose a character that can just move through time or sth like that would be able to fate manip the past, but it definitely isn't inherent to fate manip.

I got the ok for this pfp, so I'mma use it :v
 
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RatherClueless said:
The plot was always for him to use his fate manipulation to do that. Nothing changed, unless the characters fate manipulation can mess with the story itself, which needs to be proven and at that point it's just plot manipulation anyways. Although, I guess I can see the confusion now. So just to make this clear really quickly.
Fate manipulation gives the character a sense of control if you will. They believe they changed the future to their liking, while in reality, all of that was already part of the plot and nothing changed. It's like trying to come up with a plan to outsmart someone, but that person already planned for you to come up with that plan 10 years in advance, so nothing about your situation changed, even if you think it did.
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That same thing can be said for Plot Manipulation. The plot will demand that characters with Plot Manipulation use said manipulation a certain way since in actuality, they can't actually take control of the plot.
 
I did propose a division between the "Meta" Plot Hax and the "Inverse/Non-Meta" Plot Hax a while ago, but since it's relevant now, I'll post my proposal again:

Names still pending
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1- Traditional Plot Manipulation: The User is able to control the Narrative or is able to influence the Narrative in various ways, this can often be shown as the User rewriting things that have already happened, removing them from the Plot of the verse or forcing things to come on a Narrative level, opposed to a Destiny/Fate level.
2 - Reader Avatar: The User is not of the verse and instead is off the Out-Of-Verse "Real World" whereby they can influence the plot as the Reader, such as stopping, starting, rewriting things into the Plot and being able to ignore elements of the Plot due to the way they see/interpret the Plot. By being outside the Plot, they have resistances to traditional Plot Manipulation, and are often Superior to everyone else within the Narrative, as they write themselves to be.
3 - Author Authority: The User is also not of the verse, similar to Reader Avatar, however, unlike Reader Avatar, the User is in fact the Author of the Verse, controlling every facet of the Verse is any capacity, with this the Author can impose anything they like, even over-ruling Reader Avatars and can change virtually anything to virtually anything, such as behavior, ideals, motives, life, reality, death, destiny, magic etc. As the Author, the User can dictate anything about the verse, with Traditional Plot Manipulation and Reader Avatars paling in comparison to their Authority over the Verse.
 
The nature of plot already makes it meta-like, as it acknowledge all the verse as fiction, and it's not related to "higher dimensions". That a character uses a book or similar to alter story/reality doesn't make it Plot Manipulation, as it's only aesthetic.
 
Udlmaster said:
I did propose a division between the "Meta" Plot Hax and the "Inverse/Non-Meta" Plot Hax a while ago, but since it's relevant now, I'll post my proposal again:


1- Traditional Plot Manipulation: The User is able to control the Narrative or is able to influence the Narrative in various ways, this can often be shown as the User rewriting things that have already happened, removing them from the Plot of the verse or forcing things to come on a Narrative level, opposed to a Destiny/Fate level.
2 - Reader Avatar: The User is not of the verse and instead is off the Out-Of-Verse "Real World" whereby they can influence the plot as the Reader, such as stopping, starting, rewriting things into the Plot and being able to ignore elements of the Plot due to the way they see/interpret the Plot. By being outside the Plot, they have resistances to traditional Plot Manipulation, and are often Superior to everyone else within the Narrative, as they write themselves to be.
3 - Author Authority: The User is also not of the verse, similar to Reader Avatar, however, unlike Reader Avatar, the User is in fact the Author of the Verse, controlling every facet of the Verse is any capacity, with this the Author can impose anything they like, even over-ruling Reader Avatars and can change virtually anything to virtually anything, such as behavior, ideals, motives, life, reality, death, destiny, magic etc. As the Author, the User can dictate anything about the verse, with Traditional Plot Manipulation and Reader Avatars paling in comparison to their Authority over the Verse.
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That isn't too bad actually. Although idk how i feel about type 2.

I could agree to this type of division though.
 
I remember seeing that system in debate juggle, it should help a lot.

But i agree that type 2 is weird, it feels like author authority but just weaker and more specific, i think just type 1 and 3 could work.
 
We can just use 1 and 3 then.

Type 2 came from me remembering The Neverending Story, where the little boy in the story could stop and start the story at will because he was the reader and changed the entire story because he was the Reader.

I'm pretty sure some Mythologies like Anansi and some Comics like Marvel and DC have cases where beings like Mxy or someother is reading the story and stops it with a 4th Wall Break as they explain something they're in-character reading, like Mxy's story about the 10th Dimensional Being.
 
The least that we need is separate the power in to types; if the power have x amounts of applications, better write them up. Plot manip is already pretty illogical by itself to standardize it.
 
Antoniofer said:
The least that we need is separate the power in to types; if the power have x amounts of applications, better write them up. Plot manip is already pretty illogical by itself to standardize it.
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Separating them into types will define their applications, and it's not all that illogical, it seems a strange reverence is being payed to it.

It's not something special that needs a galaxy-sized supercomputer to calculate how to best deal with it or a squad of people in some backroom talking about fix its problems.
 
Actually agree with Udl on that. Besides, saying that something is "illogical" isn't really a good argument to begin with, since we have multiple powers that cover things that are either illogical or that can change logic. The more solidly defined our standards are, the better.
 
Any form in which "plot" can be categorized is going to be arbitrary at best, or use an specific verse mechanic as "reference" at worst; when we standardize powers into types people then stop paying attention to what the power actual does, instead it reduces to "what type of x power is this?". We have a bunch of powers out there, link the necessary power to cover all the applications.
 
Well, to be honest, I personally think most powers should be categorized similarly to something like regeneration or immortality, but I suppose that might be asking a bit much.

That aside, even if we don't divide plot manip into categories, the page definitely needs a bit of an overhaul, since the explanation/summary is a bit... lack luster to say the least
 
Plot manip it's a lack luster power by itself, not too different than Reality Warping.
 
Antoniofer said:
Plot manip it's a lack luster power by itself, not too different than Reality Warping.
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Nothing is too different from Reality Warping.

Virtually every single ability is just a sub-genre of Reality Warping.

Optically, this isn't a good argument because of that.
 
I do agree that dividing it up into types is generally unneeded. Just define what effects it can achieve.


Saying it is too illogical to categorize wasn't to say that things that defy real world logic can't be catergorized (I'm guessing, I'm no mind reader). It is simply that plot manipulation is right there with Reality Warping and Subjective Reality in the sheer versatility that is up to the writer.

Of the top of my head, I can think of it being used for probability and fate manipulation, power bestowal, stat amping, mind control, causality manipulation, subjective reality, and quiet literally anything else. There are plenty of stories where someone's plot manip is just your average plot armor, while some people can just write whatever they want into reality, the latter being equally as versatile as RW just with a fourth wall flavour.

Immortality and Regeneration have a singular effect, being not dying and recovering from damage. Here not only is the end goal of the ability is unclear, but even the method can vary. X having an innate plot point tied to their character (be it plot armor of a protagonist, or a fourth wall equivalent of Macbeth), altering the plot to change into something different (plot manip in general), or creating plot out of nothing (writers/creator gods in a 4th wall breaking stories, though I can think of exemples of normal characters who do that) are three categories you could choose to make, but they would tell me just about nothing of the potency, range of application, or effects of the ability.
 
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And that's why we do not have divided Reality Warping into types: it has possible uses (that are more like examples of how the power can be used), and it's "types" are actually a list of powers that can be used to archive RW, rather than "this power has x types, every one of which cover a set of other abilities and measure potency: choose one".
 
Firephoenixearl said:
That's exactly what Antonionifer meant.

"They are both just extremely vague powers that can do pretty much anything so just resort to the specific applications".
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Not really, Anton was making a comment about

Antoniofer said:
Plot manip it's a lack luster power by itself, not too different than Reality Warping.
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Which is optically a bad argument when virtually everything isn't too different from Reality Warping.

Using that (what Anton said) as a argument could be used to disregard the existence of nearly all Hax.

So, what I'm saying is, is that, that is not an convincing argument when it can be applied in many other ways which would lead to an absurdity.
 
The "it's a lack luster power" was more of an occurrence than the main argument; but as I say, if a bunch of things can be done through RW, and this power is not divided into types, no reason to do that with plot manip.

If the issue is that "plot" is a vague term, then ok, we can make more strict, but at least me I do not support diving a power into arbitrary types once again.
 
Antoniofer said:
if a bunch of things can be done through RW, and this power is not divided into types
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That's mostly because, instead of dividing that power into types, we made entire pages for its types of use, such as law hax and Subjective Reality.
 
Well, we already have those, so if the character has done that through the use of plot manip, one better write something within the lines "Plot Manipulation including: Subjective Reality, Life Manipulation, Information Manipulation..."
 
Because unless specifically contradicted, "The Plot" contains everything. Fate is part of the plot, not the other way around. They are comparable but not equal. The same goes for reality manipulation. Reality is within, and defined by the plot, everything is.

Plot: "The main events of a play, novel, movie, or similar work, devised and presented by the writer as an interrelated sequence."

If the author defines fate, it is part of the plot. If they define reality, it is part of the plot. Even if they define some sort of lesser plot, it will always be part of the larger more literal plot.
 
Antoniofer said:
Well, we already have those, so if the character has done that through the use of plot manip, one better write something within the lines "Plot Manipulation including: Subjective Reality, Life Manipulation, Information Manipulation..."
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Which once again goes back to the issue of plot hax being too poorly defined beyond "it can do these things other powers already cover but it's meta about it".
 
That's basically plot manip tho: a higher dimensional being controlling the life on "lesser" creatures is not plot manip, altering the past of other by writing stuff in a magic book is not plot manip, neither is plot manip drawing the desired future events in a comic/manga.

If current definition of the power do not make it different than reality warping, then we make it more strict, but the point of the power is to be meta-like ("metahax", how is called in other sites), but dividing it into types is unnecessary.
 
Antoniofer said:
a higher dimensional being controlling the life on "lesser" creatures is not plot manip
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Ironic you mention this specific example since this is what the plot manip in our JoJo profiles is.
Antoniofer said:
If current definition of the power do not make it different than reality warping,
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I don't see how this would be needed considering we have multiple pages for powers that are just applications of RW.
Antoniofer said:
then we make it more strict, but the point of the power is to be meta-like ("metahax", how is called in other sites), but dividing it into types is unnecessary.
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I don't see why it being more "strict" is needed either, since as you yourself said, the qualification of the power is simply using meta hax, so it doesn't need to be stictier as much as better defined so it isn't literally a mash up of other powers that already exist.
 
I personally feel like the Plot manipulation page should defiantly be better explained as our current definition:

Plot Manipulation is the ability to control the plot itself. Examples include altering the plot, creating/destroying stories, changing speech bubbles, changing the setting, etc. It is a variation of Reality Warping.

Is certainly lackluster compared to other haxes on the site.
 
Well, another advantage plot hax has against other haxes is that the person using plothax is generally in real life, therefore, not affected by it. So I still think plot hax should be from a higher plane of existence
 
I have no idea why the default to a power or level of power seeming complex or requiring nuance is to go "Make it so only these characters can have it" I.E Gatekeeping?

That's not and has never been the goal of VS debating. It's to make things stricter or harder to achieve, it's simply to categorize, and if people fit into that category, regardless of if there's a million new characters who fit into, then that's fine.

People have no problem seeing Superhuman Physical Characteristics on nearly all the profiles on the website, and that's how we should treat all the abilities, doesn't matter who it goes to because the goal was never to artificially balance a meta or whatever excuse.

It's stems from my problem with people treating Plot Manipulation or such abilities with a reverence where they believe it requires some galaxy intellect and only a select few on the website can tackle it.
 
What are the conclusions here so far? That we should improve a bit on the Plot Manipulation page definition? And if so, in what manner?
 
Antvasima said:
What are the conclusions here so far? That we should improve a bit on the Plot Manipulation page definition? And if so, in what manner?
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It seems that the conclusions are that Plot Manipulation should stay fundamentally superior to normal Reality Warping or Fate Manipulation, but should be described in a clear way that differentiates it and explains its capabilities since the current description is short and not as elaborate as other powers.

Some members think splitting it into types would the way to go about this, but Antoniofer disagrees with this.
 
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FinePoint said:
It seems that the conclusions are that Plot Manipulation should stay fundamentally superior to normal Reality Warping, but should be described in a clear way that differentiates it and explains its capabilities since the current description is short and not as elaborate as other powers.

Some members think splitting it into types would the way to go about this, but Antoniofer disagrees with this.
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Okay. Thank you for the summary.

Antoniofer usually has a very good sense of judgement, but I will ask for some additional help, as it would be useful.

@AKM sama @Promestein @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Sera_EX @SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Andytrenom @Wokistan @MrKingOfNegativity @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura

Do you have any suggestions for how we can improve on our Plot Manipulation explanation page according to the information in the quote above?
 
Please don't split it into types, we don't need to do that everytime an ability is highly varied

I do think plot manip should generally be superior to fate manip, since a verse introduction fate as a cosmological system that affects the characters would still fall under the plot of the story. That is of course, ignoring higher dimensions.

I don't know how the ability should be rewritten
 
With how much the application of Fate and Plot manipulation can vary, I do not agree with making it a standard assumption that one is superior.

Fate is as much part of the plot as plot manipulation is. Both are just something the writer made happen, so using that argument means little unless the verse has fate and plot in it and establishes a clear superiority between one and the other. (Which is not what we would use for standard assumption).

Plot being more versatile also means little. Reality warping has more potential effects than causality manipulation. One wouldn't claim that a reality warper causality manip is superior to another person who can just warp causality, without bringing feats or statements into it to compare them. Versatility=/=potency.

The two just overlap and shouldn't be assumed to be superior without feats/statements. Again, every ability is part of "reality", but without dimensionality RW would not be innately superior to Causality or Mathematics Manip, despite both being part of reality.

Only way you could claim plot to be superior innately would be to bring cosmology into it, (ie saying that plot is dictated by a being beyond the reality while fate is part of the reality). But that is bringing dimensionality into it, in which case you just need to compare which infinity is bigger with actual proof, again.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
With how much the application of Fate and Plot manipulation can vary, I do not agree with making it a standard assumption that one is superior.
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The bottom-line is that regardless of verse, literally, everything is part of a Plot, not everything is part of "Fate", as it's defined. A character who is acausal, and not affected by fate is still part of the plot. The Prisoner's from The Elder Scrolls aren't bound by fate, and their history isn't fully determined... yet the plot still dictates that they definitely did certain things.

Obviously, specific single explanations of plot and fate in-verse may vary, but in general, in the strictest definition, Plot is fundamentally transcendent of everything else in a verse. Without a plot a verse doesn't exist, and if it exists it's bound by a plot.

A verse can exist without fate, and not every verse has fate. There is a fundamental difference in that sense.
 
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