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Toaru Magic Gods Revision

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LazyHunter

LazyHunter

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There's some points in Othinus' page (and by extension, other Magic Gods') that I feel should be changed.

1. We list causality manipulation for this snippet: "make an apple dropped from below fall up" This is a huge assumption given that causality or cause/effect aren't mentioned in relation to the Magic Gods there or IIRC anywhere else. This should be changed to Gravity Manipulation, a much more reasonable explanation. We wouldn't give Matter Manipulation to someone who has the ability to magically create objects. Speaking of Creation...

2. Her page and the other magic gods pages are missing Creation, which is one of the basic powers of magic gods. Her page is also missing her Superhuman Physical Characteristics and aura of fear.

3. The resistance to Mind and Soul Manipulation the other Magic Gods have should probably go. This resistance was added because even the depowered Gremlin Magic Gods can interact with Chimera normally, but this is because Magic Gods in general are superior existences to humans and thus can bear her level of beauty, just like they can interact with the Forgotten God and its attacks normally despite its bizarre reduced existence. The side effects don't occur for them in the first place, so it shouldn't count as a resistance feat.

4. The "possibly" for type 4 Immortality all Magics Gods have should be removed. It's obvious the Magic Gods are immortal because of their divinity, as magic gods they are an existence superior to humans and other mortals that is normally considered impossible to kill, barring specialized techniques such as the AAA or by depowering them first.

Now I have two questions. First, shouldn't Othinus, and by extension the Magic Gods, have a Durability that matches their AP? I thought that we didn't assume characters are glass cannons unless explicitely demonstrated.

Second, what should we do with the 11-dimensional implications for Magic Gods? Because not only do infinitely weaker characters like esper teleporters or Carissa interact with the 11th dimension, the World the Magic Gods can warp or destroy is 11th dimensional and Othinus herself strongly implies magic gods have control over all dimensions in this quote when explaining how St. Germain is not a Magic God.

Vol 12 Chapter 2 Part 17

"Please wait!! He…he really did bend the entire world before my eyes! It was like…like this… It's hard to explain, but the walls, floor, and ceiling all turned into weapons, tunnels appeared in the people in the way, and they all attacked me at once!"

"Have you forgotten?" Othinus sounded almost utterly exasperated. "This is the Dianoid. The entire building is made of carbon materials. That means you don't need control over every phase, every dimension, and every element to manipulate everything around you. A magician with control over carbon and nothing else can pull that one off."

If we are not accepting this for whatever reason, shouldn't the discussion rule be changed to "Please avoid trying to upgrade To Aru characters to Tier 1-C or above" and not Tier 1-A?
 
1. Changing causality and changing the laws of nature is very closely related, because that which dictates which effect a cause has is nothing but the laws.

That said, for the sake of differentiation I would agree to removing it.

2. I usually see creation as standard sub-part of reality warping, but given that reality warping is used extremely inconsistently adding it doesn't do harm.

3. Not sure about this. The argument seems like saying that one resists the spear, not the piercing.

Considering that things like otherworldy appearances so strange that the human mind goes insane by looking at them are considered as mind attacks (as far as I am aware) I would think that it is at least some sort of resistance. At minimum it should be noted on the profile that their superior existence can protect them from certain things that would cause such stuff.

4. Sure.

Question 1: Striking Strength Ôëñ Durability is a standard. AP Ôëñ Durability isn't, I believe.

Question 2: Make it "possibly".
 
1. I think that kind of reasoning would be a stretch. Causality Manipulation is normally messing around with cause and effect in various ways, like erasing the cause for defensive hax, etc. Magic God's manipulating the laws of nature is closer to reality warping in that it's more "physics now work this way" or "now water has these properties".

3. Perhaps noting in magic gods' pages that they "can comprehend things beyond human comprehension"? It's kind of in the job description since mastering magic involves mastering grimoire-level knowledge that can break your mind and body. IMO it shouldn't be resistance to mind and soul manipulation because they never get to feel those effects.

A similar example, Amata Kihara is not affected by Vento's Divine Punishment. However, this is because his mentality means the spell doesn't work on him, so it's not magic resistance or resistance to being rendered unconscious.

I've seen a few Tier 2s with no justification for their durability and striking strength being scaled to their AP. It wouldn't be the first double standard I've seen, anyway, that's why I put that in the question part.
 
In general it's assumed that higher dimensional characters have striking strength and durability on this level, given that it doesn't make sense for them to be harmed from something unfathomably weaker than them/punching with a force unfathomably weaker than their regular attacks
 
I think we'd need more proof of them being geometric dimensions to boost them to 1-C?
 
So... Are the higher-dimensional implications be considered as part of the AP ? I generally don't mind, i am rather neutral on the Magic Gods, though i am a fan of the series as a whole .
 
@2nd

Yes. Higher-dimensional implications are always taken into account as AP.

@Lazy

The majority of your suggestions seem reasonable for the most part. However, as Promestein said, we'd need more textual evidence about the higher-dimensional implications to be absolutely sure.
 
@2nd

I'm aware of To Aru teleporters teleporting through the 11th spatial dimension.

@Lazy

Do you have any other quotes that state how the Magic Gods are above every spatial dimension in the series?
 
@Reppuzan: I think he gathered more or less anything relevant in the respect blog . As said, I don't think it is enough for a direct upgrade. A possibly should be fine, given that reasoned possibilities with indeterminate probability are what the possibly signifier stands for.

@Kalitas: For higher dimensional characters that is more or less true, but what we would have here is the also quite common case of a character that only displays power great enough to manipulate higher dimensions, but isn't actually higher dimensional itself. Such characters can have any sort of durability or striking strength, in my opinion. There is pretty much no reason why Haruhi-ish characters couldn't exist for tier 1 after all.
 
I also think that most of this seems reasonable, but am uncertain about the 11-dimensional implications. Do you know of any other proof?
 
@Promestein

Carissa's Curtana Original should prove Toaru dimensions are geometrical. It slices all dimensions, lower or higher, creating a series of dimensional debris. The only cross-section humans can perceive is the 3 dimensional one. The quotes are on my Toaru blog, linked by RadianceQ.

@Reppuzan, Antvasima

The only other mention of dimensions in the series that I know of is the one mentioned by @The 2nd Existential Seed. The summary preview of New Testament volume 13 includes the following sentence:

µ¼íÕàâÒüÖÒéëÞÂàÞÂèÒüÖÒéïÒü╗Òü®Òü«Õ£ºÕÇÆþÜäÒü¬þá┤ÕúèÒü«ÕèøÒüº

Which GT says it's "With overwhelming destructive power that transcends even dimension/s"

But I'm not sure if that's valid proof, considering it definitely doesn't apply to the Magic Gods in that particular volume since it's after they are nerfed by Aleister.

Maybe this didn't come up clear enough in my OP post; I'm not really asking for them to be upgraded. I'm pointing out that the evidence for them manipulating higher dimensions is for 1-C and not 1-A, so shouldn't the discussion rule be changed?
 
Well... True Magic Gods can esaily destroy everything in To Aru world just by stepping in it.

11-Dimensional world + Statements about Magic Gods manipulating EVERYTHING in the world.

Also, shouldn't we add Conceptual Manipulation to their profiles? I remember a statement that Othinus' Arrows can ignore/destroy concepts such as distance and numbers (One arrow turns into a rain of arrows just by being one.)
 
Well, I personally would not mind making Othinus and the Magic Gods High 1-C, but would appreciate further staff input.
 
@SchroKatze

The ninth arrow statement is clearly just a hyperbole about how, despite initiallly being one arrow, it turns into a torrential rain.
 
However, wasn't DontTalk opposed to upgrading them? Do you remember his arguments?
 
Looking at the previous discussion threads of the series when this matter has been brought up:

"To aru has 11 dimensions, but there is no proof that any of the magic gods can actually influence higher dimensional space in any way."

At that moment I didn't challenge it since I didn't recall Othinus implying they do in the quote I listed above. Later DontTalk also mentioned that the hidden world where True Gremlin magic gods lived and Aleister destroyed was clearly not part of the 11th dimensional world, as it was "non-existent" and took Aleister a while to calculate the non-existant coordinates to travel there, while 11th dimensional coordinates are much more casually done by espers with teleportation powers:

I saw you added a note about To Arus dimensions to the explanation thread. Not sure if worth to explicitely mention, given that all relating quotes are already in the blog, but the hidden world seems to not be part of to arus dimensional space (or at least not the 11 dimensional one).

Reasons for that:

a) it is a place in which the concepts of distance and time in general don't matter.

b) "The world was temporarily led to destruction as a result, but I still had to prioritize this. It wasn't easy converting coordinates filled with non-existent numbers into decimal."

-Aleister needed time to calculate the coordinates, even though a middle schooler in to aru can calculate 11 dimensional trajectories in their head.

-every coordinate in common math is made up entirely of existing numbers, no matter the dimensions. That the place has coordinates with non-existent numbers basically shows that a non-existant place really can not be located like a "place" in space and time, even when accounting for higher dimensions.

While in a sense one could think that the terminology "non-existent" makes the fact that it is different than being just outside of a timeline, in a higher dimension, clear, I think in regards to our tiering this is an interesting little detail.

Google also brings me to this discussio, which I believe is why the discussion rule mentions 1-A despite the only mentions for Tier 1 in the series would be for 1-C. Here DontTalk says Othinus would be 2-A or 1-C. This more recent discussio, however, DontTalk says that the only reason Magic Gods aren't 1-C is because "the higher dimensions are empty". Honestly I can't recall that being mentioned anywhere in the series (someone correct me if I'm wrong) so I don't know how that conclusion was reached or even if would count. The dimensions definitely exist since characters interact with them and should be geometrical given how Carissa's Curtana Original interacts with them

To reiterate, I'm also not sure if this evidence means they should be upgraded, I'm not very familiar with how tier 1 works since I prefer to work with much weaker tiers. It would certainly lead to some weird scaling given Aleister, Touma and Kakeru's showings against other characters, not to mentions the headache Aiwass is and Coronzon might turn into. However, even if they aren't upgraded I think the discussion rule about upgrading them should be changed as I explained in the OP.
 
Thank you for the research.

I am afraid that I am not familiar enough with To Aru to be of much help evaluating this. However, weird scaling inconsistencies are nothing unusual within fiction.

I also do not think that we need a discussion rule forbidding the characters to be upgraded to 1-C, if there exist valid arguments for it.
 
Btw: Should I highlight this thread for more community input?
 
@LazyHunter: I think you are misinterpreting what is said in the last argument.

To Aru has 11-dimensions and Othinus basically destroys every known thing in the setting, but since there aren't things like aliens or places somewhere else in the 11-D space than in the universe. That means one couldn't conclude from the fact that the magic gods destroyed the setting, that they touched the higher dimensions, since the setting is equally destroyed by only destroying the parts in the universe, cause the rest is essentially empty and nothing would be left then. I think that's what is meant.


There is also this btw., which is a bit newer and retracts the 2-A, 1-C thing.


Well, all in all what we really need to look at are the quotes and the arguments based on them.

I'm not sure how much value we should give to a summary preview and in the work itself there exist implications of higher dimensional power, but nothing completly conclusive. So I still think we shouldn't treat it as being completly factual that they can do that.
 
I have highlighted the thread.
 
We need far more proof of them having power over geometric dimensions than just that to upgrade them to High 1-C. Specially since 2-A is already based on statements.

Small statements of "Transcended over dimensions" or "Power over dimensions" is not remotely enough.

I'm also pretty sure that ACF doesn't accept Tier 1 magic gods.
 
Also, I'm pretty sure that phase refers to phases of the universe, which has infinite phases but is still one universe.
 
Okay. I suppose that an upgrade would be inappropriate then.

What other changes need to be performed here? (I perform a massive amount of different tasks, so memorising them all is not an available option.)
 
Okay. Are you willing to help Lazyhunter with unlocking (and then re-locking) pages for him to edit?
 
Okay. Do you need his help with the other edits for the magic gods, and would Othinus be affected as well?
 
Okay. Thank you. Does anything else need to be done, or is that all?
 
Okay. Perhaps you should collaborate with Lazyhunter to make those adjustments then.
 
If the pages are unlocked I can go over them to remove the resistances and add Othinus' aura of fear and superhuman physical characteristics.
 
If you list the exact titles of the pages here, I can use a script to temporarily unlock them.
 
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