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Mario (Character) Revision

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Momokamaru

Momokamaru

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So, um...Mario's page seems a bit odd. There's no established continuity in the Mario World (or so says Nintendo) with the exception of subtle references in various games to other games in the franchise (Bowser even complains that Mario is always foiling his plans, which pretty much confirms there is at least some continuity within certain games, there just isn't any canon).

However since it seems that it is accepted that Mario has no continuity, why does he have a variable tier instead of multiple keys? A key for each sub-series/continuity of games. Like a key for RPG Mario, Mario & Luigi Mario, Galaxy Mario, and "Main" Mario. They are all different.
 
I agree with this.

This seems like such an obvious solution to do. None of these particular Mario series are identical in world, "lore", and feats, in fact they contradict each other all the time.

The Mario from the main 2D Sidescrollers / 3D Plataformers, the Mario from the Squaresoft RPG, Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi Mario are all different.
 
Since this is a locked page we're dealing with, we need more Staff input. I remember quite the number of us agreeing on this when Ryukama initially brought it up on chat a few days ago.
 
Like Venom said, I personally want Mario to have keys for his most notable appearances. DinoRangerBlack didn't want the variables however. I feel if we only limit it to like 2-4 keys it can't get overly cluttered up like last time and agree with Matt.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Keys: Main Series | Mario Galaxy | Mario & Luigi | Super Mario RPG
Click to expand...
This seems good to me honestly.
 
First let me say that I think Peach is doing a great job contributing. But with that out of the way...

Honestly, I don't even know why we're treating Mario characters like this in the first place as we don't do the same for literally any other character. It seems like just not wanting to make his tier solid because to be honest, people don't want him to look strong. Mario doesn't change. He's not getting older. He's not shifting through dimensions The only Mario that's actually different is debatably SM RPG and Paper Mario, but DRB disproved the latter. No other verse gets treated like each different game is a different continuity and honestly, I'm appalled that we're doing it here. Heck, the fact that we're not considering Galaxy a main series game I don't even have words for.
 
Mario has no set continuity. However there is a certain connection between certain games in the series. We need to understand that video game characters like Mario and Sonic are very similar to comic book characters, whereas they do not start out the same and WILL change over time before they become the established versions we see today.

Just like how Batman killed people 70 years ago, Mario and it's lore has been developed since it's original debut in 1985.
 
The real cal howard said:
No other verse gets treated like each different game is a different continuity
Click to expand...
Because each Mario game is essentially a different continuity. The same can't be said for other verses.
 
@Cal

What do you mean exactly? You mean his variable tier? Or the continuity thing? There is only continuity between various titles within the series. There is no canon however. Anything goes.
 
That's not true though. Mario games constantly reference past events, and introduce new characters. The Koopalings, Daisy, Bowser Jr, Rosalina, even Yoshi. And if that comes from Miyamoto's statement, I could just as easily argue that they're all 10-B due to their feats being just acts. We don't even scrutinize Popeye as much as we do Mario characters. I'm against not only keys, but a variable tier in general.
 
I already mentioned how several games reference the past. Super Mario Galaxy for example. There is loose continuity between games. That is undeniable, but like Ven said, there is no canon.
 
VenomElite said:
There is only continuity between various titles within the series. There is no canon however. Anything goes.
Click to expand...
Basically this. Also Miyamoto saying one of the games was a play does not remotely mean the entire series is. You can't as easily argue for that.

Also even if you want to argue SMB3 is an act, going by the "games have no canon/each game is separate" that only applies to SMB3. Where the rest of the games are treated separate.

And even then, we can still rate them relative to how they are potrayed in this "play." Like how Kirito is rated as High 8-C within the games.

So the SMB3 argument serves as nothing at all. Under no logic or line of reasoning can it be used to downgrade anything, including the one you're using this to debunk.
 
Now onto the argument. This is the problem I've always had with imposing canon. Unless you're a recent game (Like Halo or Mass Effect) or an anime/manga/LN/VN, then your canon is always going to be very loose. Comic canon is loose. Cartoon canon is loose. Old games canon are loose. What if we imposed this on all early video game characters? 9-B Dream Land Kirby due to his best feat being defeating a tree and shooting down a blimp? 8-C Metroid 1 Samus due to her best feat being destroying the building sized Kraid? etc.
 
Canon is loose =/= Canon is confirmed to be non-existent.
 
And considering Ryu's statement, and we don't consider Miyamoto's statement, then there is no lack of canon in the first place. Lack of consistency doesn't mean lack of canon. This is common debating knowledge.

EDIT: I got ninja'd hard.
 
Lack of consistency doesn't mean lack of canon. Lack of canon means lack of canon. Which we have Miyamoto's statement of that being the case. And we do consider that statement.
 
I agree with you Cal on how video game/comic continuity is very loose and I have been talking with Matthew about this for awhile now, because "canon" is used to discredit so much yet we haven't fully established the difference between the canon of a self contained story such as a manga and the loose canon of a comic book character constantly undergoing retcons and changes. Same with video game characters.
 
@Ven

Technically speaking, any verse can undergo the hardest of retcons or changes if the author wanted.

Kishimoto could release a bonus chapter to Naruto where Madara was the protagonist of the entire thing, KH3 could have Maleficent be the big bad and have always been it, Episode VIII could say that Vader was never Anakin Skywalker, etc, etc.
 
For starters, Miyamoto never said that there was no canon. He said that they were taking different roles in side games like Mario Kart, Dr. Mario, and Mario Sports Mix. I don't know where we're getting Mario is different in each game with an actual plot, not to mention that Miyamoto's statement is blatantly contradicted.

EDIT: Ninja'd again...
 
Nintendo focuses on gameplay more than story.

Like Link, Mario is occasionally potrayed as a silent protagonist in order to fit many different heroic roles throughout the series. With such a character, you cannot possibly assign him one tier. He will defeat Planet level foes, he will defeat Universe level foes, will defeat Multiverse level foes. We just should know when to draw the lie and not consider it an NLF without thinking "Hey, Mario caps at 2-B he can't possibly be higher than that and likely never will be."

Brining this up because the NLF thing was used against Sera when she stated Super Sonic is at max 2-B for the same reasons I listed above about Mario. This is how video game characters are portrayed.
 
The Everlasting said:
@Ven

Technically speaking, any verse can undergo the hardest of retcons or changes if the author wanted.

Kishimoto could release a bonus chapter to Naruto where Madara was the protagonist of the entire thing, KH3 could have Maleficent be the big bad and have always been it, Episode VIII could say that Vader was never Anakin Skywalker, etc, etc.
Click to expand...
Agreed, Ever.
 
I thought that there were other no canon statements besides the actors one. Which even if referring mainly to the side games is mostly saying that these characters can do anything depending on the particular story with no bearing on other stories.

And as the Mario Wiki says that the series has no officially recognized or confirmed canon.

But DRB would have to specify in more detail however.
 
Anyway, I agree to the keys as it's incredibly obvious Mario varies in power even disregarding feats and lore. Just an example, Bowser is completely invulnerable to him and must be beaten via environmental hazards or power-ups in the main series, yet is casually beaten physically in the RPGs.

But, I do have to say that there is a confirmed "canon" and even somewhat of a timeline.

For example we know that SMW comes after SMB3, as that's confirmed in the manual. And Lost Levels is confirmed, also via manual, to come after SMB. Not sure if there's a manual statement saying SMB3 comes after SMB, but it can be reasonably inferred.

FLUDD's sca at the beginning of Sunshine gives us our most conclusive look at the timeline/canon. Confirming that before Sunshine took place Mario participated in:

  • Mario Bros.
  • Super Mario Bros.
  • Super Mario Bros. 2
  • Super Mario Bros. 3
  • Super Mario World
  • Super Mario Kart
  • Super Mario 64
  • Mario Kart 64
  • Mario Sunshine (the one he's in right now)
This is likely in order of the timeline, seeing as how 3 and W are placed, along with SMB and SMB2 depending on whether or not it was referring to the Japanese SMB2, which is Lost Levels.
 
@Xcano. Bowser can be defeated by the Fire Flower though...

@Ryu. We don't always consider what the other wikis say about canon. The Kirby wiki considers Meta Knightmare and Dededetour and The (True) Arena non-canon while we consider it canon.
 
I'm not saying "this is right cause this wiki says so" rather "like this wiki says." Xcano and others do have a point of many games referencing each other.
 
That doesn't mean there is a canon, that means there is continuity.

There is a big difference between continuity and canon. Continuity is the consistency of the characteristics of persons, plot, objects, places and events seen by the reader or viewer. Canon is the material accepted as "official" in a fictional universe.
 
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