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Durability for the Zero-Dimensional

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VenomElite

VenomElite

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Hello there. I have had quite a few talks with several intelligent users here be they regulars, discussion mods, or admins, and I've come across this argument a few times:

Something that is zero-dimensional (or completely non-dimensional) is infinitely small in every direction. They are practically impossible to destroy physically, yet they do exist. I have thus concluded that even a higher dimensional being should not be able to destroy a zero-dimensional being outside of hax. But is this true? We (as 3D beings) could let's say, tear up a piece of paper that has a dot on it. But what about something that is truly small, infinitely, in every direction, whereas it practically does not exist, but it does. How would you affect such a thing? Now I understand no one is going to make a vs match with a 11-C being, but from an indexing standpoint, I do not see how you could affect something that is technically not there because it is so small. When Sera asked me about an 11-C being vs. a 10-B (and this was not a fight per se, but just a matter of discussion), I told her there is technically no way for one to harm the other. Unless either had hax abilities allowing them to affect one another, though she agreed, she honestly could not believe that anything outside of a High 1-A or Tier 0 could actually eliminate an 11-C.

Honestly, I am lost and I concluded that it was inconclusive. My question is: How do we quantify the durability of a true zero-dimensional object?
 
Oh yes, this conversation. Honestly, I feel as if we may have been looking to deep into it. But the zero-dimensional singularity does truly seem to be nearly impossible to actual affect, let alone "destroy", regardless of the number of dimensions. Then again, I do feel as if we overlooked this. The zero dimensional "thing" does still exist in the universe, let's say. Therefore if a 3D being blew up the universe, wouldn't that include the 0D? This is making me think a lot; haven't thought about this in awhile...
 
Well, if it is truly infinite in every direction, you could say it basically does not exist. Of course when get this low into dimensions, even I start to ponder. Should say, a 3-A character eliminate the universe (all matter) who's to say that would include the 0D? What if it survived said destruction because it was so small. Bacteria are microscopic, so I don't think the same principles apply. I say this because I remember you bringing up how we can eliminate bacteria.

I do believe we both have overthought this and just need some clearer explanation that we probably know but just overlooked.
 
11-C characters are a complete and utter paradox.

Much like a Tier 0 is absolutely everything, a 11-C is absolutely nothing. So even the mere idea of an 11-C thing having a mind, or a personality is ludicrous and I can't think of a single example in fiction rather than Flatland.
 
I think I have an answer, however:

To destroy an infinitely small 0-Dimensional being, you'd have to destroy the 1-Dimensional line in which it exists, completely. By destroying the 0-Dimensional Being's "Universe", you'd erase him as well.
 
If it is the concept of nothing, then surely by being a zero dimensional entity it just loses by default as it can't do anything?

Anything even remotely superior like a dot on a page wins, simply by existing.
 
But this 0D entity is a singularity. Something completely independent of everything else. Does it still exist on a 1D segment by default?
 
@Krukov this isn't a battle per se, we were discussing the ability to affect such a "thing".

@Matt Though it will have to be somewhere, it may as well be "nowhere" because it is so small in every direction, thus has no "coordinates" or "location".

  • A zero dimensional dot drawn a piece of paper can be eliminated by setting the paper of fire/burning it to ashes.
  • A zero dimensional "singularity" however, is something that practically does not even exist. Such a being may be unquantifiable as it is basically nonexistence, thus one can argue you can affect such a being with Void Manipulation.
However, just to be safe, I would appreciate more input on this.
 
There is also this: The dimension of a vector space is the maximum size of a linearly independent subset. In a vector space consisting of a single point (which must be the zero vector 0), there is no linearly independent subset. The zero vector is not itself linearly independent, because there is a non trivial linear combination making it zero: 1 Ôïà 0 = 0 1
 
I'm not sure what tier you would have to be to affect such thing. Perhaps Low 2-C? I think at least High 1-A should be enough since they're beyond the concept of dimensions.
 
That's the thing, zero-dimensional = nondimensional too. Just not "beyond dimensional" but it is outside of dimensions because it literally has no dimensions. OD lacks dimensions while 1-A is beyond dimensions.
 
Basically they are not independent of a 1D force due to the geometric stuff. If they are truly 0D, they must be entirely disconnected from all other dimensions, but at the same time it is also possible they can be connected to all other dimensions hence the contradiction of being a 0D being.
 
It's not so much durability as much as it is simply existing on a lower plane that cannot normally be affected by 3-dimensional beings, yes?

So it can't really be quantified.
 
If something is truly infinite in every direction and is a single "point" then it is independent because it does not exist (practically speaking). It goes something like this:

1. Absolute Existence (arguably, this would be the Tier 0 and/or the Tier 0 would be beyond this)

2. Existence

3. Nonexistence (infinite 0D)

4. Absolute Nonexistence (something beyond all forms of duality again only the Tier 0 would be beyond this)
 
@Matt not really. A dot is zero-dimensional. It lacks any dimension, any axis of movement. It's just a dot (on a piece of paper for example). 1-D would be a line segment, thus it has "length" it can only travel one way. And we go onwards from 2D above.
 
A dot in the way we can draw is a 2-D thing. We cannot conceive or represent 1-Dimensional objects, let alone 0-Dimensional.

The "dot" which you speak is metaphorical, and doesn't truly exist.
 
@Tsubaki You do realized he mentioned it is absolutely nothing in every direction which mean zero movement hence the part is when this will contradict themselves.
 
@Tsubaki in that case we can view the infinite 0D as being infinitely decreasing in all directions, and thus is nonexistent and unquantifiable as Prom said.

It would be incapable of anything. But this isn't about the 0D doing anything. It's about how to affect the infinite 0D. Which as I said, I am strongly leaning towards Void Manipulation
 
Tsubaki is correct see this

But the concept of 1D>0D still applies
 
@Matt hax should always be considered. 1-As and above should be capable of affecting absolute nonexistence, by being absolute nonexistence themselves or the embodiment of such. But an infinite 0D "object" isn't absolute nonexistence. The truest and utmost nonexistence is something that lacks the definition of anything. Not even nothingness, just..."not". It's something only encompassed (in it's totality) by a questionably omnipotent being.
 
On the other hand, I do have a point about the connections between dimensions even if they are totally dimensionless. How do they exist if they didn't exist in the first place? Also points are used for pinpointing locations rather than simply being that. It also can not be just simply be points only as that is blatantly disregarding there are other things that could be considered 0D. A point in this case has a form to it, but it was used anyway.
 
To answer your original question I believe it's best to leave it at the lowest possible tier i.e 11-C,or "Point level"
 
@Sera Even then the points can also be part of a 2d or 3d space if you read the geometry part of it. They can also be definite small as well. Also they are not filled with anything at all. They have zero concepts, zero dimensions, and zero in basically everything else. How does one has a form if it doesn't have a form in the first place?
 
That's the point. It seems to be a paradox. The 0D is so small it basically doesn't exist, yet we can't say that it completely doesn't exist as that would mean it wouldn't be 0D either. So it does "exist". Technically it is nearly impossible to destroy physically. But perhaps with some form of power, it can be affected.

I still don't think it is as simple as destroying a one-dimensional segment, but again I think I'm overlooking something and I cannot put my finger on it....
 
To be fair about this, I mentioned about the forces that connect all sort of dimensions even zero dimensions. For example how did a 0D interacted with each other? No interaction at all, but matter itself is entirely a different thing as it must also have matter to exist or if I going into the lines of said antimatter.
 
That sounds like an oxymoron. How would the force that connects all sorts of dimensions affect something that is nondimensional?
 
Because depending on the kind of forces that has zero form, there are still have interactions with other dimensions due to forces either known or unknown and in a sense could be considered dimensionless as they are independent of dimensions though as it depend on what kind of force it is. Does a 0D has zero energy? If so, how do they spread?
 
A reality warper of high caliber could "uograde" the 0D being to a superior dimensional level in order to destroy it?
 
This 0D does not have energy. It is a singularity. A single "point" (in quotations for a reason) that is infinitely small in every direction, and is completely indenpendent. It is a singular existence. It does not need anything, because it is practically nothing.
 
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