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Sougo Tokiwa (Main Timeline) VS Shulk

Would Xtreme's Analysis work on Shulk ? I means, i heard Shulk's world doesnt even has planet Earth, just 2 Giants act as their planets.

And does Shulk has anything to defend against plot manipulation ? Oma Zio cann duplicate himself hundred times with OOO's Gatakiriba power and each of his copies can uses plot manipulation as well.
 
Ehhhh, Sougo has nothing to affect Alvis on his page and thus no way to permanently put down Shulk due to Alvis's abstract nature. Shulk has wincons via forcing an incap via Monado Purge along the passive Life-Force Absorption.

I'm seeing Type 8 Immortality on Sougo's page but no explanation on it, could someone fill me in on it?
 
JoshSSJGod said:
Ehhhh, Sougo has nothing to affect Alvis on his page and thus no way to permanently put down Shulk due to Alvis's abstract nature. Shulk has wincons via forcing an incap via Monado Purge along the passive Life-Force Absorption.

I'm seeing Type 8 Immortality on Sougo's page but no explanation on it, could someone fill me in on it?
Click to expand...
Sougo has the combined power of all 193 Heisei Kamen Rider powers. Hence the this ability of him "Power Mimicry (Can uses all heisei kamen rider power)". So yeah, his actual Power and Abilities actually stretch to 193 kamen riders profiles.

I'm in the work right now, so have to answer the other question later.
 
Then I'd recommend having a tab of all those powers as without it we can't count those abilities as apart of his arsenal. Its like how Alvis is the Monado and thus would have the abilities of all the Monados throughout the Xenoblade series. It is also much more convenient as it would be too much of a hassle to look through 193 profiles just to understand 1 character.
 
Sougo does have Eiji's conceptual EE's void hax for himself, his precog also went right through Sougo Tokiwa (Quartzer)'s all Heisei Rider resistances including the precog of his weaker form so he could continue to Casuality manip endlessly.

And with Sougo's Casuality hax TK basically disallow Shulk of any action.

Sougo's type 8 come in the form of Memories of the People. As long as someone continue to remember the existence of Kamen Rider (whether as fiction or real) the Rider cannot be erase. During Heisei Generation Forever, the movie's villain try to end Kamen Rider's franchise by moving into the 'real world' where Kamen Rider only exist as fiction. Tid try to erase them by multiverse reality warp, but that doesnt work due to a kid with type 1 acasuality still remember that Kamen Rider exist.
 
it's actually preferable this way, because one of Sougo opening move is summon all Kamen Riders in their strongest state to aid him, resulting the character that is put against him has to fight all 193 kamen riders at a same time. Hence whenever there are new profile of Kamen riders, we are considering it as his update.
 
Nicetoderp said:
Sougo does have Eiji's conceptual EE's void hax for himself, his precog also went right through Sougo Tokiwa (Quartzer)'s all Heisei Rider resistances including the precog of his weaker form so he could continue to Casuality manip endlessly.
And with Sougo's Casuality hax TK basically disallow Shulk of any action.

Sougo's type 8 come in the form of Memories of the People. As long as someone continue to remember the existence of Kamen Rider (whether as fiction or real) the Rider cannot be erase. During Heisei Generation Forever, the movie's villain try to end Kamen Rider's franchise by moving into the 'real world' where Kamen Rider only exist as fiction. Tid try to erase them by multiverse reality warp, but that doesnt work due to a kid with type 1 acasuality still remember that Kamen Rider exist.
Click to expand...
I'm not gonna respond anymore after this at least for today, but I just want to ask what is the extent of his Causality Hax? Shulk not only resists Causality Manipulation but has his own as well.
 
His causality hax scale to his AP, seeing how his main power is revolving around time manipulation and casaulity manipulation.

Older Sougo once said he can completely destroys the Kamen Rider multiverse, which is stated to be countless. Although we dont know the exact number, but Sento once said their multiverse has many universes as how many cells in a human body. And arcodding to this, an average human body has...32 trillion cells
 
It's basically GER undo button plus TK which is a more localized form of his previously mentioned hax.

Sougo also have Casuality resistance neg due to busting right through Baraku (Sougo Quartzer) 2-B resistances to everything in Rider franchise.
 
Type 1 abstract is debatable if he can hax him with Eiji's own conceptual manip or Kuroto Da own. If he reside in some sort of dimension then he could traverse overthere and his EE is 2-B in nature.
 
Dimensional travel doesn't allow you to affect higher-dimensional existence though, and the conceptual manipulation would have to be type 2.
 
Oof, lotta info to go through while having a bad headache

Okay, so let's do this:

  • Don't see how that precog will help Sougo at all since what you linked is nowhere near as good as Shulk's precog nor his resistance to it.
  • Oh so reliant on memories? Shulk funny enough has the perfect solution to that via his own EE which also erases the memories of the target's existence.
  • So his AP is a lot less than Shulk's and thus Shulk's resistances. Gotcha. Shulk also resists Res Negating, see 1st key for that
  • Again, I don't really see how Sougo can kill Alvis if they have stuff like passive Fate Manipulation for example to just screw up everything Sougo can do.
I'll comment more later, need to get rid of this headache.
 
Thatsafloridathing said:
He can't really use that against Alvis if he can't affect him though.
Click to expand...
Yes he can. Alvis may exist in a higher dimension but even if Plot Manipulation is localized in a single dimension, any extension or action Alvis tries to do in said dimension is subject to said Plot. In the first place, I have NEVER heard of separate dimensions having separate plots (Stories).

Every time, there's one plot and one story that encompasses theverse.
 
The problem is that most people in his verse have type 1 acasuality, and Shulk himself need to erase the memories of Sougo in order to actually undo him for good.

All of Sougo's resistances negation are all 2-B by busting right through Baraku resistances.
 
Oh, I never actually knew that about plot manipulation. Though, Shulk's resistance to resistance neg is also 2-B by the end of the game, and I also don't see anything on Sougou's profile that implies that he would resist Alvis' passive EE, and he can't really escape it either due to Alvis' omnipresence.
 
Thatsafloridathing said:
Oh, I never actually knew that about plot manipulation. Though, Shulk's resistance to resistance neg is also 2-B by the end of the game, and I also don't see anything on Sougou's profile that implies that he would resist Alvis' passive EE, and he can't really escape it either due to Alvis' omnipresence.
Click to expand...
The thing is, the Passive EE won't keep Sougo down. He'll just come back fine as any moments later, or however long the plot calls for.

Further, it's likely Sougo is fully conscious during this since he has the powers of all riders, many of whom can exist and do stuff as an disembodied consciousness. If Sougo uses his Plot Manipulation powers here, Shulk is screwed anyways.
 
How can he use plot manip if he's already dead though? Also, Shulk's EE negs up to about mid-godly due to its ability to erase beings from history and everyone's memories.
 
So as promised to Josh, i'm back to explain the Kamen rider's Immortality. This Immortality...is pretty meta and 4th wall breaking so i hope you guy will try to take this seriously :v

Like Nice said above, the Kamen riders's immortalities is relies on the people who still remember them. These people however, is not one of the Kamen rider verse.

In the recent movie of Kamen Rider, the cast got transported to a world where Kamen rider is just a television show to promote the Kamen rider merchandise. In near the end of the movie, it's confirmed that the world where they are transported to is the real world, and it's where the franchise called "Kamen Rider" is created.

The villain of the movie, namely, TidTried to erase all kamen riders from the existence by erasing Kuuga from history, so that kamen riders came after him will be erased from history and forgotten. After Tid succeed, the Kamen riders power got erased and everyone starting to forget about their existence. But then thank to the Kamen Rider fans in the "real world" still remember who they are, the Kamen Riders starting to regenerate back to existence and regain their power.

So yeah... As long as their audience still remember them, they will remain exist. that's pretty much how Kamen Rider's immortality work, and the movie is totally canon btw. You guy can ask other Kamen Rider supporters to confirm this.
 
Ah, I see. So it isn't anything Shulk can't handle. So what's stopping Shulk from precogging all possible outcomes and just picking one where he wins via incapping with Monado Purge which both he can Alvis (Alvis in particular can be real sneaky with it due to being omnipresent and thus use Purge anywhere) can use it.

Plus Sougo's opening move is to summon all the Kamen Riders which Alvis and Shulk would just say "no" to due to Causality negating, Probability Negating and just passively killing a bunch of 'em that don't resist the hax nor have the immortality to come back from it.
 
Problem is Alvis has Omnipresence of a much higher verse then Oma Zi-O and his powers range so Oma Zi-O won't be able to affect the whole of Alvis no matter what he does, and Alvis range is good enough that he can still use his powers on Oma Zi-O even outside of Oma Zi-O's range.

Edit: Sougo never did get any protection to changing the Past right? He's still as weak to messing with time as Future Sougo was? As Alvis is Omnipresent across Past, Present, and Future that is something that is easily exploited.
 
What is the size of the Xenoblade verse? If there is a longer explanation than "countless times countless universes" i would be grate.
 
I believe it is an Endless number of Universes statement, which is either countless or infinite, more likely countless from what I know about how we treat those statements.
 
@Josh all Kamen Riders has that immortality. Although, i'm curious, how do we (the wiki) handle the kind of immortality relies on the real life fans ?

If it's endless, then i think the verse's size should be 2-A. But does Xenoblade Chronicles has any other statement about the multiverse size ? Just baseline countless is 1000 universes
 
Endless statements are treated more as Countless 2-B statements then infinite 2-A statements on the wiki, and baseline countless isn't 1000, it's countless, an amount beyond any actual number whether it's millions, billions, trillions, or more, with only higher degrees of countless and infinite exceeding it.

And if theirs a "real world" in a verse, then, unless it's down to be higher dimensional, it's treated as just another universe in their multiverse, and thus can be reached if the opponent has the range needed.
 
Well that wrong, and I don't think anyone has ever treated Countless verses like that, Pokemon, Dragon Ball Xenoverse, and Xenoblade are all treated as higher then any non-countless finite number of verses can reach, that why we use the term Countless to describe them as no finite amount can be given to them.
 
i somewhat feel wrong to treat countless as such high degree, as i alway see it is used to say anything too many to be counted (like the number of beans in a bag). But if that's how our wiki currently handle it then i will roll with it.
 
LinkSlayerLvX said:
But wait? what is issue about 2-B hax here?
Click to expand...
Well, appareanlly. Seem like Waga Maou's power isnt near potent enough to pierce through Shulk Resistance. Shulk has better resistance and much more powerful causality hax, plus the haxes from Alvis.
 
Well anyway, Sougo doesn't have any protection against Time Paradoxes as far as I know, so Alvis, as a being who is Omnipresent across Time, can deal with them in the past before Sougo got his 2-B powers in a way that doesn't cause the Type 8 to interfere.
 
If they fight with physically Ap, Waga Maou stomp him

but this is 2-B fight via Maou hax vs the Sword physically hax. and I think the damned Sword can rewrite currently Maou existense to Geiz Majesty Sougo / Normally student Sougo like he did it to himself by rewrote all Heisei Timeline
 
Actually I'm pretty sure they are both Countless Timelines so AP is equal, but yeah I vote Shulk for Alvis Incaping through rewriting the past.
 
Well, Shulk is Countless x2 and higher (stomped Zanza who is that) along with an ad infinitum possibilities (same as Pokémon) so Shulk has the AP advantage.
 
Well regardless about AP, not only does Sougo not resist changing the past but he also doesn't seem to have precognition protection, add in the fact he hasn't always had 2-B power and I don't see how the Omnipresent across Time Alvis won't incap Sougo by changing the past.
 
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