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Frieza vs Galvatron

SS Broly >> Exhausted Golden Frieza >> SSB Goku > UIS1 Goku > Infinite Zamasu

Gap between SSB Goku and SS Broly is over 50x, so I think Frieza is dozens of times baseline.

Nova Prime (baseline Low 2-C) > Galvatron = Optimus Prime >> Sixshot = Black Shadow >> ...Optimus Prime?

Sorry to say, but the scaling on the wiki is incredibly circular for Transformers, and doesn't seem to explain it well.

Can a Transformers expert provide an accurate Low 2-C scaling chain?
 
It seems like people in that thread thought 2x Low 2-C is 2-C,and it's stated they are 'half of 2-C' so I assume Transformers are generally baseline.

In that case, Frieza has a massive AP advantage, due to him scaling to fighting SS Broly for over an hour, who is over 50x Post-ToP SSB. As I claimed, he should be dozens of times baseline Low 2-C.

There is absolutely nothing in Galvatron's abilities that seem noteworthy. His stats seem to all scale to baseline (meaning Frieza should be able to easily destroy him) and he has inferior intelligence, being only above average when Frieza is pretty much a genius.

The only things Galvatron has, is that he is a master martial artist (whereas Frieza is informal) and stamina, but Frieza can fight someone stronger than him for over an hour easily.

What are Galvatron's wincons?
 
The real cal howard said:
Yeah...Frieza is not smarter than the eight million year old war veteran in any way.
Click to expand...
Okay, then why does Galvatron's profile state he is only above average? I have to use the profiles for these battles, especially for verses I am unfamiliar with.
 
Because he's not a Reed level physicist who can build giant death machines from a pencil. The intelligence page bases it off of natural intelligence, and while Galvatron certainly isn't lacking, above average fits best for him. Same for Frieza, who while a natural prodigy, is far from a genius, combative or otherwise.
 
Same for Frieza, who while a natural prodigy, is far from a genius, combative or otherwise.

...What? Frieza never trained a day in his life, all of his techniques on Namek were self-made. He even learned to image train and learned Goku's entire fighting style, improving his Ki Control drastically. This entire episode debunks that claim.He is absolutely a combat genius.

To add further, he was given his entire empire as a child and had it flourishing over the decades. His leadership is vital, hell we even see the Frieza Force collapsed without his guidance and fell into bloody civil war.

Not to mention, Galvatron having millions of years of experience doesn't equate intelligence or even smarts. The Gods of Destruction are millions of years old, and Frieza is still capable of deceiving them, and Goku is capable of outsmarting Beerus numerous times.

Not to mention other verses, such as Pokemon, listed combat prodigies as 'Gifted' intelligence, which is superior to 'above average'. The only reason Galvatron wouldn't be gifted, is because his combat skill is from millions of years. In that case, Frieza would be considered a genius for being self-taught and matching martial arts masters capable of handling martial arts gods with millions of years of experience in just a few decades of life.

So in this case, no. Galvatron isn't smarter or more intelligent than Frieza. He is more experienced. Big difference.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
It seems like people in that thread thought 2x Low 2-C is 2-C,and it's stated they are 'half of 2-C' so I assume Transformers are generally baseline.

In that case, Frieza has a massive AP advantage, due to him scaling to fighting SS Broly for over an hour, who is over 50x Post-ToP SSB. As I claimed, he should be dozens of times baseline Low 2-C.

There is absolutely nothing in Galvatron's abilities that seem noteworthy. His stats seem to all scale to baseline (meaning Frieza should be able to easily destroy him) and he has inferior intelligence, being only above average when Frieza is pretty much a genius.

The only things Galvatron has, is that he is a master martial artist (whereas Frieza is informal) and stamina, but Frieza can fight someone stronger than him for over an hour easily.

What are Galvatron's wincons?
Click to expand...
Being able to destroy 2 universes jumps from low 2-C to 2-C. Being able to destroy a space-time twice the size does not count.

Galvatron is at least low 2-C possibly 2-C for scaled from Shockwave (IDW), who is at least low 2-C possibly 2-C for "Absorbed the Dead Universe, threatening to destroy the main universe in the process".

Galvatron = Optimus Prime < Shockwave btw.
 
Shockwave should be used as the primary scaling, then. I don't know he wouldn't be listed on Galvatron's page.

So, my perception on Galvatron's AP is based on interpretation of that feat. We are using Low 2-C Galvatron here, so would the Low 2-C interpretation of the feat be baseline?
 
Frieza's army was so successful because there wasn't anybody near his power in his universe that wasn't magic gum or a naked cat, both being super asleep at the time. Nobody would dare cross him, let alone his father, because that would risk the death of literal billions. The fact that it fell apart so soon after his death is a testament to its weakness, as it shows that he couldn't delegate and stuff like that. For a human reference, the Roman Empire didn't die with Caesar.

He made energy moves. Don't see how that's a big deal. At all. It's not like the Kamehameha where master martial artists took 100 years to learn it. His image training is fine, I guess, but doesn't put him anywhere near genius combative levels. And when did he ever learn or adapt to Goku's fighting style? No seriously, as I'm not watching that episode at 4 in the morning. He abused his statistical prowess. Heck, Frieza's whole draw is that he doesn't know martial arts. He didn't know it when he died, he couldn't have learned it from Tagoma as none of his soldiers knew it, and he certainly didn't learn it in hell.

The Gods of Destructions are terrible gods. Most of their time is spent sleeping. They're horrible examples to use as experience showing wisdom. Super goes out of its way to knock them off their golden pedestal.

Pokémon, that's because I went out of my way to show that. Galvatron actually knows martial arts, actually employs tactics, and has been in wars where he can't just kill everything in one fell swoop. All things Frieza can't say.
 
So is scratching baseline low 2-C being weaker than ~7.075 times (sqrt of 50 times) baseline... an AP stomp here?
 
The fact that it fell apart so soon after his death is a testament to its weakness, as it shows that he couldn't delegate and stuff like that. For a human reference, the Roman Empire didn't die with Caesar.

Neither did Frieza's empire, it just splintered into factions. And saying he 'can't delegate' is ridiculous when he employs Beriblu and Kikono as advisers and trusts Kikono with development of his army. It also completely neglects how he had leadership positions, such as Zarbon and Dodoria, to help him manage his empire.

The fact that his empire survived 15+ years after his death, when most of its leaders died, is actually a testament to Frieza.

He made energy moves. Don't see how that's a big deal. At all. It's not like the Kamehameha where master martial artists took 100 years to learn it.

Are you joking right now? His Nova Strike matches Kamehameha, and he replicated Krillin, a genius martial artist, and his technique after seeing it once, even improving upon its design.

His image training is fine, I guess, but doesn't put him anywhere near genius combative levels.

Goku trained under Gohan, Roshi, Korin, Popo, Kami, King Kai and Whis for multiple decades. He's been training under masters since he was a young child, and is considered a tremendous super prodigy by Gods with millions of years of martial arts training under Angels, who are the greatest martial artists in existence.

And yet, Frieza matches Goku on Namek, is roughly equal to him on Earth in base forms and matched him completely after image training.

How the hell can you claim Frieza isn't a genius martial artist?

And when did he ever learn or adapt to Goku's fighting style? No seriously, as I'm not watching that episode at 4 in the morning.

Stated right here. Beerus and Whis even state Goku and Frieza are completely equal.

He abused his statistical prowess. Heck, Frieza's whole draw is that he doesn't know martial arts. He didn't know it when he died, he couldn't have learned it from Tagoma as none of his soldiers knew it, and he certainly didn't learn it in hell.

Frieza only abused his statistical prowess on Namek and in RoF with Golden, and even then he fought on-par with Goku in their base forms during RoF and was on-par with SS Goku, before his body started to strain.

The Gods of Destructions are terrible gods. Most of their time is spent sleeping. They're horrible examples to use as experience showing wisdom. Super goes out of its way to knock them off their golden pedestal.

You are generalising based on Beerus. You are simply assuming all of the gods are lazy like him.

Pokémon, that's because I went out of my way to show that. Galvatron actually knows martial arts, actually employs tactics, and has been in wars where he can't just kill everything in one fell swoop. All things Frieza can't say.

Cal, have you ever watched the Tournament of Power arc?
 
Jasonsith said:
So is scratching baseline low 2-C being weaker than ~7.075 times (sqrt of 50 times) baseline... an AP stomp here?
Click to expand...
If Galvatron's Low 2-C interpretation is baseline, then yes. Frieza scales to dozens of times Low 2-C.
 
Dozens is an understatement considering that Post-ToP SSB Goku is no slouch in the AP department either. Also why are we discussing intelligence as though Frieza can't just one-shot him with ease?
 
Planck69 said:
Dozens is an understatement considering that Post-ToP SSB Goku is no slouch in the AP department either. Also why are we discussing intelligence as though Frieza can't just one-shot him with ease?
Click to expand...
Oh, Cal just responded to me mentioning it and I was curious why Galvatron's intelligence is rated as only above average. It's not really related to the matchup rn, so I'll just drop the discussion unless Galvatron has the AP to keep up.
 
Prodigy =/= Genius

Frieza isn't that cunning at all. He's mostly outsmarting a bunch of complacent "Gods" who have the same problem he has (that he never had to actually try because they can slap most people). Also the argument of millions of years of experience isn't exactly cogent. Galvatron actually spent that time fighting. Most of them are just nuking fodder. And even in the TOP he's still far above most of the competition considering Tien, Krillin and Roshi did fairly well for a while.
 
Galvatron isn't 2-C, so he gets one-shot. The only Transformers who might be are Shockwave, Optimus, and Megatron; We're still discussing that.
 
since this is Low 2-C versions I say Frieza one shots. Also experience means jack up against a prodigy, a person, especially a young one, endowed with exceptional qualities or abilities.

Frieza as a prodigy has a natural ability that surpasses beings with hundreds if not thousands of years of experience. Even deities that have lived for eons know not to mess with Frieza. He is gifted which makes up for his lack of thousands of years of experience and he's an extremely fast learner.
 
Just for discussion: Anyone thinks Galvatron is even 2-C for the statement "Absorbed the Dead Universe, threatening to destroy the main universe in the process"?

May start a CRT for this but want to hear more first.
 
Alright, if Galvatron is only baseline this should be closed. I don't think he has any hax that can help him even the massive AP gap.
 
Galvatron has been upgraded to 2-C, I believe that makes this a stomp in his favor now.
 
Omegas03 said:
We can change the opponent to Beerus, Jiren or Broly if Galvatron is Baseline ƒæÇ
Click to expand...
I don't think Galvatron can resist EE, so it'd be very difficult for him to defeat Beerus. Jiren might have skill and technique to handle their less than half gap and Broly can probably close their gap and has access to God Bind?

So yeah, I guess those 3 could viably defeat him.
 
Omegas03 said:
We can change the opponent to Beerus, Jiren or Broly if Galvatron is Baseline ƒæÇ
Click to expand...
He is currently baseline, although he may get a slight upgrade above that.
 
Jiren doesn't have a skill or technique advantage and Broly can't close the gap since he's still in Beerus' tier. Beerus could probably win via EE if he goes straight for it tho
 
BruceTheBatman said:
Jiren doesn't have a skill or technique advantage and Broly can't close the gap since he's still in Beerus' tier. Beerus could probably win via EE if he goes straight for it tho
Click to expand...
Broly could just adapt to Galvatron since he's only slightly less than halfway to 2-C.
 
I suppose I stand corrected, but Galvatron will still have a huge experience advantage over Broly so I'd back him. Plus his moves don't have as much of a "time limit" since Broly can't fight forever. Plus Galvatron can survive in space.
 
BruceTheBatman said:
I suppose I stand corrected, but Galvatron will still have a huge experience advantage over Broly so I'd back him. Plus his moves don't have as much of a "time limit" since Broly can't fight forever. Plus Galvatron can survive in space.
Click to expand...
Considering Broly became millions of times stronger over the course of like, 15 minutes I don't think that time is much of a problem. Gogeta only beat him by going far enough above him in power that Broly couldn't adapt in time. Here it's like a 2.5x difference at best.
 
BruceTheBatman said:
That's a bit of a NLF given it's supposed to be his full power judging by the page.
Click to expand...
Not really? That was the full power he showcased in the film when Gogeta stomped him. He still very much has his insane reactive power level. Only this time, he's starting the fight in the same ballpark as his opponent (an opponent who can't amp himself immensely like Gogeta).
 
BruceTheBatman said:
Only problem is that Galvatron is stronger than Gogeta
Click to expand...
The difference is almost negligible since Gogeta is the closest you can get to 2-C without being there. Though you may be right about there being a problem for Broly initially.
 
Omegas03 said:
How can you beat the s*** out of Broly who's above Half 2-C yet still be Low 2-C?
Click to expand...
I have no clue. I also have no clue why MUI is still Low 2-C if it beat a form of a guy that's massively superior to a base that's at least GoD level which we take as Half 2-C on the wiki.
 
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