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High 8-C Tournament Match 4 (Kat vs Renamon X)
- Thread starter DontTalkDT
- Start date
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Duplication seems to be one of the major possible adbantages for Rena, so what's it like?
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Oh boy. This is probably the closest match in this tournament thus far. I will explain who I think will win and give my reasons momentarily.
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So, let me write for my own character.
Renamon X has one big problem: It can't fly. That's fatal against a flying gravity manipulator like Kat.
Renamon has absolutely no chance in close combat, since Kat could basically control its movements by making her fall away from the ground.
And the promblem goes further. Once Kat has Renamon in the air its only way of dodging anything is teleportation, which Kat can match with her own teleportation.
With Kat's mini-black holes staying close to her was probably never a wise decision anyway.
As such Renamons best way to battle is probably range spam. Kat can couter in kind, but has better dodging abilities in the air.
To that comes her vortex field, which can reflect Renamon's projectiles back at her. That in particular makes winning a ranged battle very difficult.
Renamon X has one big problem: It can't fly. That's fatal against a flying gravity manipulator like Kat.
Renamon has absolutely no chance in close combat, since Kat could basically control its movements by making her fall away from the ground.
And the promblem goes further. Once Kat has Renamon in the air its only way of dodging anything is teleportation, which Kat can match with her own teleportation.
With Kat's mini-black holes staying close to her was probably never a wise decision anyway.
As such Renamons best way to battle is probably range spam. Kat can couter in kind, but has better dodging abilities in the air.
To that comes her vortex field, which can reflect Renamon's projectiles back at her. That in particular makes winning a ranged battle very difficult.
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Now to begin. Renamon has issues with fliers off the bat. However, this issue can be dealt with quite easily for reasons I will outline below.
First off, Kat starts with an advantage due to being a gravity based fighter. However, this is all lessened when you consider a two particular powers Renamon has that I think turns this in her favor.
First off, her Illusions. These are not "I'm mindhaxing you" type illusions, but moreso optical illusions. She manipulates the terrain in order to "invite her opponent into a world of illusions" via the textures, thus confusing her opponents and making them screw up more than they wish.
Kochōgen: Changes the texture of its surroundings, inviting the enemy into a world of illusions.
However, the most important bit is her Power Mimicry. Renamon can copy basically anything Kat has and use it just as well with just simple observation. Now, I am not saying that she looks at Kat and instantly copies everything she has. For example\:
Kat uses a gravitational push. Renamon copies that gravitational push and nothing else. This extends to all of Kat's other things as well. This present as huge problem for Kat. The longer the fight goes on, the more likely she is to be fighting someone who basically has all her abilities + some.
This is pretty big as this mimicry would in fact get rid of Renamon's main disadvantages and make the fight more of an even playing field. This is coupled with how Renamon is by no means a reckless fighter. Renamon by nature are calm and collected, speedy and tricky fighters who are quite tactical in how they use their powers. The moment Renamon sees that her opponent has these strong gravity powers, Renamon will more than likely see that she would need to copy or adapt to these powers to overcome them.
Renamon X is on the higher end of High 8-C (an unknown amount above 7 tons) and thus I don't see Kat finishing her off with one hit. So it's a battle of Kat trying to finish off the tricky fox before all her powers get copied. Coupled with Renamon's illusions and texture powers will make things quite difficult. Also, there is her poison move which will constantly drain Kat overtime. There is also her reactive evolution via Overwrite, but that isn't as reliable.
This will not be easy for anyone here due to each other's skill set. Either Kat finishes Renamon off right away, or Renamon copies her skills and counters her. Low-key leaning towards a tie.
First off, Kat starts with an advantage due to being a gravity based fighter. However, this is all lessened when you consider a two particular powers Renamon has that I think turns this in her favor.
First off, her Illusions. These are not "I'm mindhaxing you" type illusions, but moreso optical illusions. She manipulates the terrain in order to "invite her opponent into a world of illusions" via the textures, thus confusing her opponents and making them screw up more than they wish.
Kochōgen: Changes the texture of its surroundings, inviting the enemy into a world of illusions.
However, the most important bit is her Power Mimicry. Renamon can copy basically anything Kat has and use it just as well with just simple observation. Now, I am not saying that she looks at Kat and instantly copies everything she has. For example\:
Kat uses a gravitational push. Renamon copies that gravitational push and nothing else. This extends to all of Kat's other things as well. This present as huge problem for Kat. The longer the fight goes on, the more likely she is to be fighting someone who basically has all her abilities + some.
This is pretty big as this mimicry would in fact get rid of Renamon's main disadvantages and make the fight more of an even playing field. This is coupled with how Renamon is by no means a reckless fighter. Renamon by nature are calm and collected, speedy and tricky fighters who are quite tactical in how they use their powers. The moment Renamon sees that her opponent has these strong gravity powers, Renamon will more than likely see that she would need to copy or adapt to these powers to overcome them.
Renamon X is on the higher end of High 8-C (an unknown amount above 7 tons) and thus I don't see Kat finishing her off with one hit. So it's a battle of Kat trying to finish off the tricky fox before all her powers get copied. Coupled with Renamon's illusions and texture powers will make things quite difficult. Also, there is her poison move which will constantly drain Kat overtime. There is also her reactive evolution via Overwrite, but that isn't as reliable.
This will not be easy for anyone here due to each other's skill set. Either Kat finishes Renamon off right away, or Renamon copies her skills and counters her. Low-key leaning towards a tie.
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I don't think Kat can finish her off then.
In the end, nothing cat has insta-one-shots, and almost all of her stuff can be countered by her own stuff.
And her gravity push and such aren't all exactly individual abilities. Yeah, some are, but her abilities are fewer and she just uses them creatively.
In the end, nothing cat has insta-one-shots, and almost all of her stuff can be countered by her own stuff.
And her gravity push and such aren't all exactly individual abilities. Yeah, some are, but her abilities are fewer and she just uses them creatively.
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I know her Gravity Push and such are all apart of her full Gravity skillset, however Renamon can only copy the actions she observes. For example, if she fought a Digimon who could BFR the opponent to another dimension (Digimon have copied this before btw). She could only copy the BFR to that world alone and nowhere else. I hope that makes sense.
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It does, but Kat from the first game (only played that) does all four of things for her whole skillset:
Negate gravity
Make gravity go in a certain direction.
Make a black hole.
Use her cat to make a pseudo armor and charge at enemies.
Negate gravity
Make gravity go in a certain direction.
Make a black hole.
Use her cat to make a pseudo armor and charge at enemies.
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As for the illusions: The thing is that if all we know is that the technique changes the textures around Renamon, I doubt that it will have a relevant effect on Kat. We would need a more specific usage to claim that.
Does Renamon in character instantly power mimicry all its opponents?
That aside, I don't think copying Kat's abilities is that simple. You forget one important fact: Kat's abilities can't be used by a single person. Kat's basic shifter abilities are already a combination of Dusty's power and her own power. The Lunar Style and Jupiter Style version additionally require certain artifacts.
So to make a copy of Kat's power Renamon needs to make a copy of certain objects and living beings, which goes way past normal power mimicry.
Does Renamon in character instantly power mimicry all its opponents?
That aside, I don't think copying Kat's abilities is that simple. You forget one important fact: Kat's abilities can't be used by a single person. Kat's basic shifter abilities are already a combination of Dusty's power and her own power. The Lunar Style and Jupiter Style version additionally require certain artifacts.
So to make a copy of Kat's power Renamon needs to make a copy of certain objects and living beings, which goes way past normal power mimicry.
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And that is where my knowledge on her ends.DontTalkDT said:
Btw, did they ever do a continuation for the dude that got lost in time in the seconds game?
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Tbh I have no idea who you mean. Raven kinda got lost in time, but I don't think you mean her...
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The scientist who notices that the tree is being absorbed by the black hole at the bottom, ever so slowely.DontTalkDT said:
I think he also had a wife that also got lost in time like that?
They are hidden throughout the map and can be talked with. These guys:
https://gravityrush.fandom.com/wiki/Mysterious_Couple_locations
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The whole point is that the ability manipulates the texture of the surroundings, meaning the area itself. It's specifically made to affect enemies.
Renamon in character would start with changing the terrain, afterwards she would do anything needed to win. Digimon have no set character and if anything, Renamon being the species of Digimon it is would more than likely use her mimicry abilities to adapt to the gravity based powers. She doesn't need to instantly mimic her opponents, she just needs to actually utilize it which is highly likely considering her circumstances.
Who the ability comes from doesn't matter, Renamon is simply copying the ability. She sees a gravitational pull, she can counter the pull. I also don't think that's how Mimicry would work when she is simply counter the power used. As long as she can see the ability, she can copy it. Whether it be a sword strike or sending someone to another dimension. Not to mention that if we go into Digi-Modify and inherited skills, Digimon have shown to create objects to use abilities that require body parts that they don't have such as when using Snimon's twin sickles, she actively turns her arms into sickles.
Renamon in character would start with changing the terrain, afterwards she would do anything needed to win. Digimon have no set character and if anything, Renamon being the species of Digimon it is would more than likely use her mimicry abilities to adapt to the gravity based powers. She doesn't need to instantly mimic her opponents, she just needs to actually utilize it which is highly likely considering her circumstances.
Who the ability comes from doesn't matter, Renamon is simply copying the ability. She sees a gravitational pull, she can counter the pull. I also don't think that's how Mimicry would work when she is simply counter the power used. As long as she can see the ability, she can copy it. Whether it be a sword strike or sending someone to another dimension. Not to mention that if we go into Digi-Modify and inherited skills, Digimon have shown to create objects to use abilities that require body parts that they don't have such as when using Snimon's twin sickles, she actively turns her arms into sickles.
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So digimon can copy weapons and items that cause certain effects?
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Does Rena permanently copy or just for that one counter?
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Another example is how when having Pteramon's abilities via the loading method (absorption), she gains the ability to summon it's bombs and such.
@Moritzva
Digimon copy any ability can see and understand what it is, hence why it is limited to the intelligence of the individual Digimon. As long as they see the move, they can copy it. And Digimon like Renamon can manipulate their own textures to accomodate for weapons and such. For example, one of Renamon's own skills is her reworking her own textures to transform into a complete copy of her opponent.
@Risci
Renamon's mimicry is permanent. Any ability a Digimon copies is permanent.
@Pen
It's listed in Digimon Physiology.
@Moritzva
Digimon copy any ability can see and understand what it is, hence why it is limited to the intelligence of the individual Digimon. As long as they see the move, they can copy it. And Digimon like Renamon can manipulate their own textures to accomodate for weapons and such. For example, one of Renamon's own skills is her reworking her own textures to transform into a complete copy of her opponent.
@Risci
Renamon's mimicry is permanent. Any ability a Digimon copies is permanent.
@Pen
It's listed in Digimon Physiology.
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Why I removed my comment...Now Im confused though, say a character has a gun that can destroy a planent, renamon can copy that gun?
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No, she copies the projectile.
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so she can copy any projectile or ability she see's regardless of how it works or where it comes from?
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I don't think they were ever mentioned again.Ricsi-viragosi said:
Yes, but how is that used? If we have no idea which way Renamon makes use of that, it would be hastily to assume that it will have a significant effect on the fight.Dragonmasterxyz said:
For all I know it's used to make the walls look like flesh, which would be completely irrelevant.
Renamon in character would start with changing the terrain, afterwards she would do anything needed to win. Digimon have no set character and if anything, Renamon being the species of Digimon it is would more than likely use her mimicry abilities to adapt to the gravity based powers. She doesn't need to instantly mimic her opponents, she just needs to actually utilize it which is highly likely considering her circumstances.
I disagree. Digimon across all media aren't really known to abuse the powers they theoretically have to the full extent at all times.
For Renamon to instantly copy all abilities if they are used once, there should be some precedent of that happening. Hax is very often not that abused in fiction, so assuming this kind of usage from there being no set showing is pretty questionable.
Who the ability comes from doesn't matter, Renamon is simply copying the ability. She sees a gravitational pull, she can counter the pull. I also don't think that's how Mimicry would work when she is simply counter the power used. As long as she can see the ability, she can copy it. Whether it be a sword strike or sending someone to another dimension. Not to mention that if we go into Digi-Modify and inherited skills, Digimon have shown to create objects to use abilities that require body parts that they don't have such as when using Snimon's twin sickles, she actively turns her arms into sickles.
Are Digi-Modify and Inherited skills the basic power mimicry she can instantly pull off?
To that comes, even if she can create the necessary objects, that is still far off from creating another supernatural creature for the mimicry.
And I do think she would need to copy Dusty. If you, for example, copy an ability that creates an explosion by creating anti-matter, then you would copy the anti-matter part, not just the explosion without the anti-matter step.
Similar for Kat: Her ability isn't just the part that creates a gravitational push. That the mechanism behind this push is the combination of her own and Dusty's power. So that is part of what needs to be copied for it to function the same.
All of that aside with her black holes and the temporary incapacitation by vortex fields Kat has some moves that on first use can already cause very heavy damage. Few second incapacitation is a lot for Supersonic+ characters and all.
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@ Pen
She has to understand how it works (i.e understand that it's the manipulation of gravity). It is never stated that they need to copy the item that does it to do so. In Re
igitize (where this power is shown the most), they simply copy the skill itself along with it's added effects. The only prerequisite is that they understand the ability hence why they need to be a more intelligent Digimon to do so.
@Mori
She can use it as much as she want as once copied, the ability becomes part of her skill set.
She has to understand how it works (i.e understand that it's the manipulation of gravity). It is never stated that they need to copy the item that does it to do so. In Re
igitize (where this power is shown the most), they simply copy the skill itself along with it's added effects. The only prerequisite is that they understand the ability hence why they need to be a more intelligent Digimon to do so.@Mori
She can use it as much as she want as once copied, the ability becomes part of her skill set.
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So wait how would she understand things like magic?
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Magic attacks exist in Digimon. For them, Magic is basically just more programmin.
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this ability sounds broken af atm
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"Yes, but how is that used? If we have no idea which way Renamon makes use of that, it would be hastily to assume that it will have a significant effect on the fight. For all I know it's used to make the walls look like flesh, which would be completely irrelevant."
It's not that hard to figure out when the move description flat out means that she edits the textures and considering Renamon's other texture based ability like her own to turn herself into literally a complete copy of her foes shows that her texturing process goes beyond fleshy tones. I don't even know how that would affect another Digimon.
Here is her full profile.
"I disagree. Digimon across all media aren't really known to abuse the powers they theoretically have to the full extent at all times."
I never said she would or that Digimon do. I said that this is a tactic that she can flat out use if need be. Especially when concerning certain skills.
"For Renamon to instantly copy all abilities if they are used once, there should be some precedent of that happening. Hax is very often not that abused in fiction, so assuming this kind of usage from there being no set showing is pretty questionable."
I will concede that the nature of Kat's powers are more difficult to copy considering their sources.
"All of that aside with her black holes and the temporary incapacitation by vortex fields Kat has some moves that on first use can already cause very heavy damage. Few second incapacitation is a lot for Supersonic+ characters and all."
What is the mechanism behind this incapacitation? How does it work? Why would it work on someone more than 2x stronger and more durable? Not to mention that Renamon can absorb data from her surroundings to become stronger as well. Her Black Holes are EE right? Renamon resists this with her X-Antibody.
Also, Kat has limited flight time and if Dusty gets sick, it gets even lower and if something happens to Dusty, she can't control gravity. What's stopping Renamon from simply poisoning her with poison gas? Does Kat always have those Black Hole around her? What's stopping Renamon from teleporting and poisoning her. I still hold that her texture manipulation and creating illusions is far more powerful than you think it is. Also, what's stopping Renamon from posing as a rock just for Kat to get close?
This is also ignoring all of Renamon's other abilities that she can use such as invisibility and being able to easily mend her own wounds. Also, Renamon's teleportation effects Kat as well as she teleports herself and Kat at the same time. She can change her own textures in order to hide as well. We cannot ignore all of Renamon's possible tactics that can be used, nor can her Power Mimicry or Reactive Evolution be ignored. Not to mention her duplication as well. Hell, Renamon is directly stated to use her transformation arts consistently in battle.
Speaking of Reactive Evolution, depending on the circumstances, one can argue that Renamon's will work. She obtained the X-Antibody one of two ways, she either Reacted to Yggdrasil's Particle Worm and gained it that way, or she killed a Digimon and took it. Both are possible outcomes. But even then her Reactive Evolution is still a factor.
It's not that hard to figure out when the move description flat out means that she edits the textures and considering Renamon's other texture based ability like her own to turn herself into literally a complete copy of her foes shows that her texturing process goes beyond fleshy tones. I don't even know how that would affect another Digimon.
Here is her full profile.
| Cloaked in an overflowing, bewitching aura, this dignified onmyoji is well-versed in the dark arts, especially for a Child level. Its additional tail as well as the red markings surfacing all over its body symbolise its newfound strength. The techniques it uses have been improved as well; it controls the battlefield with its cunning techniques, firing a spinning yin-yang attack that slices up all who come close (Taikyokusen) and altering the textures covering not only its body but also its surroundings, inviting the enemy into a world of illusions (Kochōgen). | ||
I never said she would or that Digimon do. I said that this is a tactic that she can flat out use if need be. Especially when concerning certain skills.
"For Renamon to instantly copy all abilities if they are used once, there should be some precedent of that happening. Hax is very often not that abused in fiction, so assuming this kind of usage from there being no set showing is pretty questionable."
I will concede that the nature of Kat's powers are more difficult to copy considering their sources.
"All of that aside with her black holes and the temporary incapacitation by vortex fields Kat has some moves that on first use can already cause very heavy damage. Few second incapacitation is a lot for Supersonic+ characters and all."
What is the mechanism behind this incapacitation? How does it work? Why would it work on someone more than 2x stronger and more durable? Not to mention that Renamon can absorb data from her surroundings to become stronger as well. Her Black Holes are EE right? Renamon resists this with her X-Antibody.
Also, Kat has limited flight time and if Dusty gets sick, it gets even lower and if something happens to Dusty, she can't control gravity. What's stopping Renamon from simply poisoning her with poison gas? Does Kat always have those Black Hole around her? What's stopping Renamon from teleporting and poisoning her. I still hold that her texture manipulation and creating illusions is far more powerful than you think it is. Also, what's stopping Renamon from posing as a rock just for Kat to get close?
This is also ignoring all of Renamon's other abilities that she can use such as invisibility and being able to easily mend her own wounds. Also, Renamon's teleportation effects Kat as well as she teleports herself and Kat at the same time. She can change her own textures in order to hide as well. We cannot ignore all of Renamon's possible tactics that can be used, nor can her Power Mimicry or Reactive Evolution be ignored. Not to mention her duplication as well. Hell, Renamon is directly stated to use her transformation arts consistently in battle.
Speaking of Reactive Evolution, depending on the circumstances, one can argue that Renamon's will work. She obtained the X-Antibody one of two ways, she either Reacted to Yggdrasil's Particle Worm and gained it that way, or she killed a Digimon and took it. Both are possible outcomes. But even then her Reactive Evolution is still a factor.
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Dusty has elemental, or some other form of intangibility for sure. It disperses into balck-bad-animation-bubbles during battles when not used personally, as far as I remember.
Not sure about EE, but black hole also plain hurt enemies.
Not gonna lie tough, up and having poisonous gas, invisibility, teleportation, illusion manipulation, power mimicry and duplications do seem a lot. But that's me.
Not sure about EE, but black hole also plain hurt enemies.
Not gonna lie tough, up and having poisonous gas, invisibility, teleportation, illusion manipulation, power mimicry and duplications do seem a lot. But that's me.
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Intangibility won't help seeing as Digimon have Non-Physical Interaction as per Digimon Physiology. Okay, so he disappears? I will concede on Power Mimicry then. In fact cut that one out of my argument considering the nature of Kat's powers.
How much have they hurt people stronger than her? From what I see, Kat is 3.3 ton. Renamon X is a good deal above 7 tons.
The illusions aren't like mind-hax based ones. Renamon manipulates the terrain to confuse her opponent. It's gonna be a little bit harder to do when Kat is in the air, but she can still trick her and cause her to screw up.. She can summon who phantom versions of herself to fight with her.
How much have they hurt people stronger than her? From what I see, Kat is 3.3 ton. Renamon X is a good deal above 7 tons.
The illusions aren't like mind-hax based ones. Renamon manipulates the terrain to confuse her opponent. It's gonna be a little bit harder to do when Kat is in the air, but she can still trick her and cause her to screw up.. She can summon who phantom versions of herself to fight with her.
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how strong are her duplicates?
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The green Nevi in the first game are really tanky in durability (taking literally hundreds upon hundreds of hits to break their exoskeleton alone), but can still be hurt, and Blackhole does do massive damage to them. Not sure about numbers.
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As strong as she is.The pen or the sword said:
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So I ask again, does she always have these Black Holes around her? And does she always start with them?
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She makes them out of herself. Like, if an enemy gets close she can become the black hole.
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Yeah she would. Say we have Endeavor's fire. She could copy his fire attacks.Moritzva said:
Deku's One for All, she could copy it as it is just Amplification and a Punch//Kick/Flick.
Frog Girl is an odd one, but she can more than likely just change her textures for that one.
As shown with things like Digi-Modify, the Digimon can change it's textures to use certain moves (although Digi-Modify is a special thing, considering Renamon by nature abuse their texture powers, this wouldn't be hard). But things that alter the body are a little more tricky for most.
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Like...the micro ones? Or the big one that's a suicide move?Ricsi-viragosi said:
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So, if it's an actual, physiological feature, like a mutation quirk, she probably won't, but if it's some sort of Emitter quirk with more simple attacks, such as fireballs or amps, rather than full-body mutation, she's able to copy it?
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Basically.
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