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Katanagatari CRT

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Firephoenixearl

Firephoenixearl

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So it's come to my knowledge as of lately that some things about katanagatari are heavily over the top interpretations. So i will do this mostly with the intention to see if there is more good proof, but anyway here we go.

Why is this complete durability negation? It's just the sword is sharper than most swords, which means it can cut through objects easier. Doesn't mean it can cut through "any" object. Because the sword has no statement or proof that it would do that, as the it's just mentioned to be sharp, not "sharp enough to cut through atoms or molecules". At the current level it will just help disregard some level of durability, example, it would not need our standard 7.5x AP gap to 1 shot or cut through someone. Even if someone is somewhat above their AP it would be able to one shot, but that's about it.

That's just durability. The sword is specially made so that nothing in verse can actually break it, it just means the sword is VERY durable. Nothing up to 7-A can break it with raw strength. But it's not invulnerability, invulnerability is if there is some mechanics to it, some good enough mechanics to justify it tanking higher tier attacks, but durability is not one of them. Otherwise every character would have invulnerability for being immune to attacks below their tier. I've heard as much as "immunity to physical damage" from this so, this just has to be replaced with a higher durablity for the sword in the durability section. Something along the lines of "Far higher with Zetto Kanna (Not even Shichika could break it with raw strength)".

So from what i heard, he can copy the other deviant blades, but the exact mechanics and capabilities are unknown cus he has never shown this ability, so it is unknown what exactly he can do. Considering some of the blades are not even replicable by logic. Example one of the blades' special trait is literally the fact that it is hundreds of swords, and the 12th "blade" is literally a pair of guns. And without feats im gonna find it really hard to believe Shichika can turn his fingers into a revolver and shoot live ammunition, or that he is gonna become around 100 different people at once. And those are just 2, there are swords with abilities like being light and delicate, being really heavy, one of the swords being a puppet, and more.

So due to lack of feats, while it should be on his profile, it should not be used in fights as it is very very shallow and unknown as to what it can do at all due to the nature of the blades.

These are the ones that picked my attention.
 
1-2: Every statement of "being able to cut anything" or being unbreakable is from people with info analysis or literal precog that would've told them if they were just really sharp or durable, which didn't happen. Zanto Nanakura has many statements of being able to cut through anything, so that is just a blatant lie. Zetto Kanna has 0 antifeats of not being invulnerable. Additionally, them not just being really sharp or durable is backed up by the fact that every Deviant Blade was made with smithing techniques from the far, far future, alchemy, and magic and explicitely break or exploit the laws of physics to do what they do.

3: Shichika, by that point, is himself a Deviant Blade, so physics doesn't apply anymore. Additionally, Sento Tsuruga had some stuff about how Shichika couldn't see them via his sixth sense which was just overlooked, and Ento Ju can just be replicated by him throwing shit. Hakuto Hari's main deal was also it's shockwaves, which ignore durability similarly to Namakura, Soto Kanazuchi also had this thing where you could freely change the direction of the attack and that you keep use whichever end you wanted, which leads me to believe that it's focus being "weight" was wrong to some degree. I'd need to go back and check if Biyorigou did anything notable. The point is that some of them didn't have any powers to replicate in the first place.
 
1. Can cut everything in verse. A 7a verse won't be taking about 3a objects. Just being sharp means it'll cut anything in tier 7a for example.

2. The sword was broken by enough AP from shichika. And again even then it cannot be broken by the ap of the verse. Your logic is textbook definition of NLF. Kind of like Itachi saying "No one without mangekyo sharingan can beat me" being used to say he beats tier 1 gods. You're using the same logic "cannot be broken in a tier 7 verse" = "cannot be broken in any verse".

3. Prove and give me statements physics doesn't apply. Ento ju can't be replicated like that, the guns could produce raw fire by the end. Hari's shockwaves don't ignore dura and as i said the characteristic was its really light. The whole point of kanazuchi was that it was really heavy that's why shichika said "then what's the point of this sword" when someone negated its weight to use it. Yet shichika said it can copy them all. You're using it without feats and that's why you're on a tough spot cus you're just using headcanon as to what he could mean. Nothing factual.
 
1: I'll respond to this when you read the rest of my comment, because you clearly didn't.

2: Basically the same as above. The only things believed to be able to break Zetto Kanna were things which were also stated to ignore durability by people who would 100% know if it could or was just really really sharp.

3: Basically same as above again. Shichika can just make a movement that creates heat then. His page says otherwise. I'm fairly certain that Togame deduced that it's main focus was "freedom", with "weight" being a bonus since it makes it really powerful on top of hard to dodge. This is not headcanon, unless you want to concede that Trackless Step and Phantom Form Intetsu are headcanon as well. These are things that are extremely heavily implied and stated throughout the whole series, at which point sheer feats don't matter as much.
 
1. I'll need proof for the breaking the laws of physics. And good one at that.

2. Shichika broke it. And again tier 7 verse they don't know anything beyond tier 7 that's why they don't know the sword would be broken by that much ap.

3. More like a fire that cuts, so ugh...proof? His page says otherwise, you're arguing a claim that's trying to change the profiles with "the profile says so" I mean ok whatever floats your boat. Shichika stated that the whole point was weight so that's debunked by default. "Katanagatari crt" , brings up rakudai. I mean that's just making you look biased. If there is anything on rakudai gather them up and make a CRT, I'll gladly answer, don't mention them in a katanAgatari CRT though. Heavily implied, sure, never said he can't do what he said, the feats serve as to what he can do at all. As an example, no one questions that medaka copied abilities from ajimu but we don't count them cus we don't know what they even do as they've never been actually used. Similarly not saying he can't copy, just that without feats of what he actually does with them it's useless in debates.
 
1: I believe there was a statement from Shikizaki, the guy who made all the Deviant Blades, in episode 11 but i'd need to check. If it's not there then idk where it was but i distinctly remember it.

2: So something stated to be invulnerable being broken means that it's not invulnerable now?

3: He can, not did or will since his Kyotoryuu is vastly superior to everything else in the verse at this point. Well considering the fact that Sabi is believed to be able to split the sun and moon in half with those shockwaves, they either ignore durability or it's an outlier and considering how things are in Katanagatari i'd be willing to bet on the former. Lets be honest Earl, you only made this because of Shichika vs Ikki. I'm planning on something similar, so i'd recommend that you stockpile as many legit scans as you can. The issue with that comparision is that we, for the most part, know what he would have copied, rather than 100 basically random abilities which could do multiple things. The reason we don't have feats is because Kyotoryuu itself was vastly superior to every Deviant Blade, including Ento Ju, so there was 0 need to actually use any of it when he innately had a better form of combat.
 
1. Find it, and you also gotta prove it's not flowery writing and the blades truly defy physics.

2. Yes. If something unbreakable is broken it means it's not unbreakable.

3. Sure I agree he was superior. Ugh, split the sun and moon, flowery writing at its finest, gotta love nisio, no it's not an outlier, feats can be outliers, statements can be flowery writing. Like Vandheer Lorde's quote on his profile not giving him tier 3 ap. I mean they were brought up there, this has nothing to do with the fight, i just learned about it, but as i said if you have anything feel free to make a Q&A thread it's your right. Not really we don't know what he would have copied, with stuff pointing to him not copying them at all like not using the healing from akuto bita to heal, along with most of the blades having uncopyable traits like being light, being heavy, having many copies, having a puppet, being sharp, being possessed, being wooden, being a handle etc. We don't know what he would copy without going into essentially unbased opinion. Also if he would never use them even in a fight to the death that makes it even more of a reason why being used in various battles would be best.
 
1: The fact that stuff like Hakuto Hari's frictionless-ness, Ento Ju's fire, and several other aspects of the various Deviant Blades, not least of which is Seito Hakari's floating guard, exists shows that they clearly don't operate by normal physics.

2: You do realize that invulnerability negation is a thing right?

3: I will admit that it is most likely flowery language, but the fact that he doesn't because he can't breathe is space provides a reason for why he doesn't demonstrate that sort of thing. Akuto Bita is like, the worst possible example, since Shichika outright regened from being repeatedly shot in his vital organs and cut during his fight with Emonzaemon. Copying the weight or physical substance of a weapon isn't anything he was implied to be able to do, at least normally, although Biyorigou is a puppet itself, Dokuto Mekki both had a vastly more potent form of the normal "poison" that all Deviant Blades had as well as containing a copy of Shikizaki Kiki's memories, which is why it caused Hoo to become possessed, although he didn't encounter either while Complete because the user had become a mindless berserker, and Oto Nokogiri was stated to make someone uptight and rigid in their discipline and actions to an utterly inhuman extent, which is kinda what Shichika already was at that point. Shichika didn't use them because he intended to die to Emonzaemon, which didn't work due to his own regen and general abilties and he could've insta-gibbed Emon whenever he wanted to.
 
1. Not proof. Many people in many verses can do those doesn't mean they are beyond physics. It's just fiction being fiction. It's like saying 65kg goku being able to nuke planets clearly shows he's beyond physics cus he doesn't abide by kinetic laws of physics.

2. Its only for clear cut cases, with objects that have a mechanics to being invulnerable. Not randomly tanking attacks in verse with a claim of unbreakability on top. Cus then we would be looking at suggsverse levels of beyond omnipotence via "statements that have no reason to be wrong and every character just scaling upwards".

3. Not how you go for things. It's just flowery writing with the best feats in 7a. He didn't regen vs emonzaemon. Shichika being disciplined and stuff isn't exactly proof that he can copy the sword's ability. Shichika always was like that, as a complete deviant blade he just became more serious and somewhat apathetic. And no he didn't want emonzaemon to kill him, he wanted to die to the only person who should be capable of doing it. He was still giving it his all, it was never implied he could have beat emonzaemon wherever he wanted.
 
1: Fair

2: Also fair

3: That wasn't what i was saying, i was saying that it wasn't obvious due to him already being disciplined. That's mostly semantics but technically true, although Shichika was only ever hit by Ento Ju because he literally walked into the bullets and completely shredded Emonzaemon once he hit him with Shichika Hachiretsu, so i doubt he was anything outside of causal for most of the fight.
 
3. Yeah fair on the discipline part.

The way the fight was presented with shichika using his ult technique and in the end winning due to being capable of 1 shots unlike emon showed that he wasn't casual. Especially when he deemed emon the only one who could have killed him. Him taking the bullets was cus he couldn't dodge, even emon was surprised when he thought shichika dodged everything. It was implied shichika couldn't dodge everything.
 
here is the scan for the physics thing. This was said by Shikizaki after he stole Hoo Maniwa's body, and he also basically agreed with Togame when she, just before that scan, said that the Deviant Blades surpass the laws of physics.

There is 0 reason for this to be a lie, flowery language, or an exaggeration.

There is now 0 reason to consider durability negation and invulnerability unfounded or limited to AP, and i am done with this argument.
 
Zettou Kanna: Komori, whose information gathering abilities are superior even to people with extraordinary genius-level info analysis and second only to a person with outright Clairvoyance, stated that nothing would be able to break Kanna, and that its durability went far beyond simple physical craftsmanship, but was supplemented by Shikizaki's usage of occult knowledge and, as later revealed, technology and sciences from the far future, much further than the 21st century, according to a side novel.

Ginkaku: Was able to easily split people confident that they could kill him with ease, and was stated to be possibly the deadliest opponent one could fight despite his comparative weakness because he could cut anything, including the invulnerable Kanna.

To quote myself in an earlier thread regarding Shichika copying the Deviant Blades:

"I know it was only an implication that he could, no actual demonstrations. We only have conclusive proof that he counters all of them, not necessarily that he utilizes them. But considering all the lines about using their bodies to substitute for the weapons they aren't permitted to wield, and his Completed Status, it's not unreasonable to assume. Tragically, the series leaves a lot up to interpretation"

Hence why there's a possibly on his page

And yes, we have lines from Shikizaki, Komori, and Togame that speak to the swords' abilities breaking the laws of physics, on top of all the weirdness regarding "Perfection" vs "Completion".

Hell, Kiss-Shot's sword from Monogatari is implied to have been forged by Shikizaki and it negates durability against supernatural beings and passes harmlessly through humans.
 
Also, as detailed on his page, almost everything about Hakuto Hari and Sabi Hakuhei is either inference from the other characters or side statements.
 
Zettou Kanna: Ok that just means it's invulnerable in verse. Giving invulnerability to it from in verse statements without a clear mechanics, is like giving Zeno tier 0 cus he's called all powerful by low 2-C's. And science from a far future doesn't exactly prove why it's invulnerable to beings far beyond 7-A. Not to mention Shichika broke it casually and implied he could have broken it even at the start of the series.

Ginkaku: Well yeah, but it's just described as "sharpness" in verse, not "sharpness that can cut something on an x level". Due to it being too vague and having stuff like "needs to be with blood to be swung faster" meaning that it does come across air resistance, it'd be a logic gap to assume he can cut something regardless of resistance. It just means the resistance it encounters is not enough to stop it, as such 7-A resistance (durability) would get bypassed but beyond that it's a no-no without feats.

Shichika: Yes i agree with you, in that kind of statement, it's safe to assume he can do it, it should be on his profile. What i am saying is "it shouldn't be used in debates cus what exactly he can do/copy from the swords is really wonky, inapplicable leaving everything up to interpretation and no facts". It should be on his profile, just not in debates. Similar to Medaka Kurokami's copy of Ajimu's abilities. Where we do accept that she copied, we do not use them in debates however as it would be just opinions possibly extrapolated, nothing factual. So a note of

  • While shichika has stated that he could copy the blades, he has never done so, nor has he ever stated what exact trait he could copy from the blades. As such they should not be used in debates.
Would be fine imo.

"The swords breaking the laws of physics". Yes, but that has shown not to be the case as most of the sword don't do that. Zettou Kanna would be included but it was broken. Some of the other swords have absolutely no reason to be "beyond laws of physics" as most of them are basic in nature and normal, like Hakuto Hari being made of glass, the armor being well an armor, the puppet being a puppet, the hundreds of swords being many swords etc. So it just leads to believe it was just flowery writing in the "They are beyond the laws of physics", as they clearly are shown not to be so.

I mean that's from another verse so like...that's like using statements from Medaka Box and applying them there just cus the author is the same.
 
1. Fair. He did imply that he could break it now due to not holding back anymore

2. Also fair, but the resistance negated by the blood is not air resistance, but the grinding against the sheath as it is drawn

3. Very much agree

4. It's a bit more complicated, but you're right in how it shouldn't be taken as direct fact

5. Same verse, actually. Characters have officially met each other in universe
 
2. Wasn't the sheathing part needed for it to move at those speeds? I recall it was, just looking for confirmation cus am not sure on that part.

5. We sure they are the same characters and not Nisio's usual trickery?
 
Creaturemaster971 said:
Princess Hitei yeets herself into the future to learn about lasers and swim in a pool, and meets the Monogatari dude
Click to expand...
That feels about as legit as Joker meeting spiderman in that one panel. Feels a bit weird considering supernatural things don't inherently exist in the Katanagatari verse, yet Monogatar just goes "lol" on it all. I hate Nisio
 
I think that Firephoenixearl makes sense here. We cannot use No Limit Fallacies,
 
Yes, I'm definitely willing to add "possibly" qualifiers and other addendums as needed. These discussions were what I was hoping for in the initial revision, but at the time less people were interested in or currently capable of discussing the information.

Also we know that supernatural stuff exists in Katanagatari, there are several examples.
 
Creaturemaster971 said:
Yes, I'm definitely willing to add "possibly" qualifiers and other addendums as needed. These discussions were what I was hoping for in the initial revision, but at the time less people were interested in or currently capable of discussing the information.
Also we know that supernatural stuff exists in Katanagatari, there are several examples.
Click to expand...
I take it you agree with the changes?

Aren't most of those just "trained"? So they would be supernatural from our perspective, but not from theirs.
 
Well, the same could be said of any universe where magic is commonplace. Shikizaki and Hitei can explicitly astral project into the far future for one, and there is mention of necromancy
 
Also I'd like to hear HI3's further thoughts before fully agreeing

In the meantime feel free to voice any other thoughts you may have about Katanagatari
 
Creaturemaster971 said:
Well, the same could be said of any universe where magic is commonplace. Shikizaki and Hitei can explicitly astral project into the far future for one, and there is mention of necromancy
Click to expand...
No. Magic is magic. It being common place doesn't change the fact that it's supernatural, it just makes "supernatural" be common. Rakudai would be my best example here. The skill feats that can be achieved by training hard sometimes literally go beyond what magic in some verses can acomplish, but it's still hard work. And it has a clear difference between skill and magic.

Similarly Katanagatari can do a lot of stuff by training hard that would be impossible otherwise, but Monogatari just goes like "you're a vampire" and "you can regen arms" that are not skill related nor are they meant to be skill related in verse.
 
Ah yes that makes sense. I'll have to check on the canonicity of the side story on question, and hopefully it is canon because Hitei has some impressive occult and intellect feats in it
 
@Ant

If Earl wants to change what's on the pages, he needs to make another CRT because he has completely negated the point of this one
 
Read my post right above Jordan's first

Earl more or less said that he won't even entertain the possibility of being wrong, so no one is obliged to debate with him further.
 
Hl3 or bust said:
Additionally, due to this, Earl has invalidated his own CRT and no one is further obliged to argue with him.
Click to expand...
This? What he is saying is true about NLFs though.
 
He seems to think that I want to have Namakura damage 4D beings and Kanna tank 4D damage. What he's calling an NLF could be applied to literally every instance of invulnerability and dura negation ever, but it's only being brought up here for whatever reason.

Additionally, if you read the rest of this thread, you will see that invulnerability and dura negation for the relevant things isn't wank or NLF, but supported throughout the series. Kanna being broken isn't an anti-feat for it btw, since it was only believed to be able to be broken or was broken by other Devaint Blades which themselves were stated to be able to cut anything.
 
Well, we tend to be very strict before assigning invulnerability. Durability negation is also usually strict for cutting attacks as far as I am aware.
 
There are precisely 0 reasons for them to not be legitimate, considering the fact that

  • all Deviant Blades explictely use future technology, not just by the standards of when the series is set, future by our standards, magic, and alchemy as well as breaking or exploiting the laws of physics to do what they do
  • more than a few characters who deemed the weapons to be outright unbreakable or be able to cut anything would 100% know if it was only like that on a tier 7 scale, especially their creator, Shikizaki
  • and the only things that ever broke or were believed to be able to break Kanna were themselves Deviant Blades that were stated to be able to cut anything. BoS Shichika isn't an anti-feat for this btw, since Kyotoryuu, the martial are he was using, was itself a Deviant Blade.
 
From what I understood the argument for durability negation being NLF was that it was never shown to cut through something with above tier 7 durability. This isn't a very strong argument, since that would apply to many instances of durability negation in fiction and it doesn't really disprove anything.
 
We cannot assume that just because something never displayed any specific upper limits, there really are no upper limits whatsoever. Sorry.

You can ask some other administrators to comment here as well if you wish though: VS Battles Staff
 
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