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Masadaverse Discussion Thread 24
- Thread starter Lady_Ashford
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- shinza banshou
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- 132
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- Thread starter
- #3
Credit to C. Night or Collin
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uh oh
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So is there any news on the writing with the broken light team? I heared they are still writing works despite the fact the company is disbanded but what is actually getting out of that really. Heading onto the fact no current interest is even being taken by other companies, and yet takashi is active on social media aswell. I think good portion is aware of this but again my question stays.
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"LLT is manifestation of Merc desire for death. That on its own is enough as 1-A proof. Other shit like Gladsheimr being capable of blocking Merc hadou of mercury, release soul from Deja vu and various other feats/descriptions only serve as further proof to the legitimacy of 1-A spear"
WEW LAD!
CITATION NEEDED FOR THE SPEAR!
Base human reinhard was already born from Merc's desire for death. i guess that means that human reinhard is 1-A by your standard
did you miss Wilhelm beating Schreiber? they literally tell you that Gladsheimr gives you massive deja vu.
and you aren't "blocking" Merc's hadou territory when Merc can just drop by uninvited.
WEW LAD!
CITATION NEEDED FOR THE SPEAR!
Base human reinhard was already born from Merc's desire for death. i guess that means that human reinhard is 1-A by your standard
did you miss Wilhelm beating Schreiber? they literally tell you that Gladsheimr gives you massive deja vu.
and you aren't "blocking" Merc's hadou territory when Merc can just drop by uninvited.
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Trifa's LLT stabbed Marie all way to Twilight Beach. so how his lance isn't 1-A when we have base Marie ranked as 1-A too? also each time Trifa's LLT failed in killing target (ex: against Ren and Machina) there was context and nothing in context suggested Trifa's LLT is weaker than Rein's.
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Well it reaching her is a range feat but if it harmed her that is a AP feat and as for the second part if Trifa's Lance is accepted as 1-A then those two suriving would be classed as Outliers/PIS unless something in verse gives a legit reason as to why they survived.Infera28 said:
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Aight first before discussing the actually points pls fix your ******* spacing.
"Base human reinhard was already born from Merc's desire for death. i guess that means that human reinhard is 1-A by your standard"
LLT is literally a weapon born purely out of Mercs desire for death and Reinhard is the only person who can properly wield it Merc saying so himself, the weapon being capable of actually killing Merc makes sense since its literally a weapon born from a being wanting death while Reinhard scaling to it doesnt make as much sense since hes the wielder, the wielder doesnt need to be as strong as the weapon just being capable of using it to deliver the blow which Reinhard is the only one whos capable of doing it.
"and you aren't "blocking" Merc's hadou territory when Merc can just drop by uninvited."
Mercs avatars have been shown to be capable to going places even his law doesnt reach without Merc specifically exuding force for his law to reach their ie. The Twilight Beach, so his Avatars also being capable of manifesting in Glad isnt a stretch even if his Law doesnt enter.
"Base human reinhard was already born from Merc's desire for death. i guess that means that human reinhard is 1-A by your standard"
LLT is literally a weapon born purely out of Mercs desire for death and Reinhard is the only person who can properly wield it Merc saying so himself, the weapon being capable of actually killing Merc makes sense since its literally a weapon born from a being wanting death while Reinhard scaling to it doesnt make as much sense since hes the wielder, the wielder doesnt need to be as strong as the weapon just being capable of using it to deliver the blow which Reinhard is the only one whos capable of doing it.
"and you aren't "blocking" Merc's hadou territory when Merc can just drop by uninvited."
Mercs avatars have been shown to be capable to going places even his law doesnt reach without Merc specifically exuding force for his law to reach their ie. The Twilight Beach, so his Avatars also being capable of manifesting in Glad isnt a stretch even if his Law doesnt enter.
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Did you actually bother to even read the scene that i linked where it states that Trifa only hit Marie and not Ren too because of his doubts? Its weaker in precision and accuracy. I never stated that LLT was "weak" in power output. Same shit for Machina who was playing with his feelings which also made him miss .
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This excerpt basically says what i told before @Infera
Getting tired and it's night here. I'll respond to you later on Embrace but a quick summary:
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This excerpt basically says what i told before @Infera
Getting tired and it's night here. I'll respond to you later on Embrace but a quick summary:
- No this is a stupid comparison. Rein is unaware of his nature while LLT was enhanced by Merc with other stuff (gave it a curse and other stuff) and its because of HR special connections that makes it assimilate themselves with their user and become part of their being. Thus LLT is nothing but an extension of Reinhard entire being. We also have some statements like being compared to Marie Guillotine and her curse (though i'd rate it higher). Being stated to blow away God when deployed by a non restricted Reinhard by swatiska.
- I'd like to see the citation for that if you can. Aq Gladsheimr is stated to be outside the ghetto (another name for Merc's law) as it is a singularity of the sorts. Albeit it is stated Mercurius can force it into his law, he absolutely can't just by his passive oitflow and has to actually focus on it.
- Has nothing to do with Merc coming in really. Mercurius is capable of going to Twilight Beach despite it being a realm outside of his law and Throne. Place where no flow of mercury exist. He's still comes there to check on Marie
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"I'd like to see the citation for that if you can"
would love to but the page is preventing me from posting what i want
would love to but the page is preventing me from posting what i want
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ok, one thing that i remember seeing and that, in light of a batch of translations that i found for kamui kagura, i object to.
i remember someone posting something on how the Tenma couldnt be harmed and it was a scene from the perspective of Soujirou. besides it being in raw japanese, the scene uses his perspective and as a flawed and imperfect narrator that lacks all the facts of the situation, it doesnt seem viable. people then took this to mean that taikyoku is required to harm a hadou god or their legion.
that is not consistent with Dies Irae (which still suffered edits after kkk got released) as Marie gets the shit beat out of her on a regular basis and just hitting a wall is enough to hurt her. Hadou god Ren with his law active that protected him from getting erase by machina was still constantly complaining of the damage machina's punches were doing to him, even pointing out broken ribs, despite saying that machina didnt have the ability to actually kill him at that moment. Machina didnt have taikyoku, Ren did.
In contrast, Rein and Merc remain difficult to kill even as hadou gods because Rein still has his uber durable body that Ren still needs Rea's help to pierce and Merc is still an intangible shade in his true form.
after reading Machina vs Madara, i propose a different explanation. the Tenma are simply using the power of the law of stillness as a form of defense.
my points:
1-Machina is wearing literal time armour to stop himself from dying, since he is moments away from death underneath it. Machina actually beats the shit out of Madara and wins the fight itself, but reaches his death once the armour is gone. Ren's law of stillness prevents time from passing for the person in question and renders them invulnerable to harm as a result.
2- Ren says while fighting Machina that only him and his friends benefit from the positive effects of his law. the main one is moving through stopped time, but we also see that at least Ren himself is granted invulnerability.
3- The Tenma are Ren's legion, born from his flesh and blood and are also his "cells". that is a level greater than just when Ren said that his mortal friends could benefit from his law. now they are an extention of Ren himself.
4- we have seen with the LDO and Reinhard that the leader can "bless" the legionaires with the positive trait of their law.
i will keep reading the translations i havent finished in that batch. unless something there changes my current hypothesis, i will keep this stance on the topic because of raw japanese in image format that i cant run through a translating engine and flawed narrator and just a lack of content i general since DI contradicts a lot stuff people here want to pass up as gospel and i can only expect that Kamui Kagura would do the same
i remember someone posting something on how the Tenma couldnt be harmed and it was a scene from the perspective of Soujirou. besides it being in raw japanese, the scene uses his perspective and as a flawed and imperfect narrator that lacks all the facts of the situation, it doesnt seem viable. people then took this to mean that taikyoku is required to harm a hadou god or their legion.
that is not consistent with Dies Irae (which still suffered edits after kkk got released) as Marie gets the shit beat out of her on a regular basis and just hitting a wall is enough to hurt her. Hadou god Ren with his law active that protected him from getting erase by machina was still constantly complaining of the damage machina's punches were doing to him, even pointing out broken ribs, despite saying that machina didnt have the ability to actually kill him at that moment. Machina didnt have taikyoku, Ren did.
In contrast, Rein and Merc remain difficult to kill even as hadou gods because Rein still has his uber durable body that Ren still needs Rea's help to pierce and Merc is still an intangible shade in his true form.
after reading Machina vs Madara, i propose a different explanation. the Tenma are simply using the power of the law of stillness as a form of defense.
my points:
1-Machina is wearing literal time armour to stop himself from dying, since he is moments away from death underneath it. Machina actually beats the shit out of Madara and wins the fight itself, but reaches his death once the armour is gone. Ren's law of stillness prevents time from passing for the person in question and renders them invulnerable to harm as a result.
2- Ren says while fighting Machina that only him and his friends benefit from the positive effects of his law. the main one is moving through stopped time, but we also see that at least Ren himself is granted invulnerability.
3- The Tenma are Ren's legion, born from his flesh and blood and are also his "cells". that is a level greater than just when Ren said that his mortal friends could benefit from his law. now they are an extention of Ren himself.
4- we have seen with the LDO and Reinhard that the leader can "bless" the legionaires with the positive trait of their law.
i will keep reading the translations i havent finished in that batch. unless something there changes my current hypothesis, i will keep this stance on the topic because of raw japanese in image format that i cant run through a translating engine and flawed narrator and just a lack of content i general since DI contradicts a lot stuff people here want to pass up as gospel and i can only expect that Kamui Kagura would do the same
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Does anyone have the scan of Pre-Atziluth Reinhard being equal to a universal being, it was stated by Masada.
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It wasn't ftom Soujirou perspective if you actually look and read the scene. It was told in a third person view.
Dies Irae scenes were during Acta Est Fabula, long before Masada decided to establish his cosmology in KKK and following that up by Amantes Amantes (who's side stories gives a lot of sneaky references)
Very curious about this "batch of translations" of yours. Unless it comeq from a noteworthy translator or someone who's famous for being knowledgeable about Shinza (Trexalfa, mist, Eigou, ect) i'm not buying any of that.
Dies Irae scenes were during Acta Est Fabula, long before Masada decided to establish his cosmology in KKK and following that up by Amantes Amantes (who's side stories gives a lot of sneaky references)
Very curious about this "batch of translations" of yours. Unless it comeq from a noteworthy translator or someone who's famous for being knowledgeable about Shinza (Trexalfa, mist, Eigou, ect) i'm not buying any of that.
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Yeah most of the Masadaverses OPness and Cosmology comes from K3 iirc so anything that happened before that could very well contradict that since at the time the full Cosmology hadnt come into being.
Plus if things are contradicting and such against most other statements and feats they are classified as PIS or Outliers.
Plus if things are contradicting and such against most other statements and feats they are classified as PIS or Outliers.
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PsychoWarper said:
PIS exists no more than any other feats you may want to use. They are the all the desire and work of the author.
The reader does not have the right to pick and choose what they consider "canon" at their leisure
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Ok if we or anyone actually listened to that like every character on here would be Unknown since basically every series has some contradictor statements or feats that go against the more common and seemingly accurate feats.
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Are you actually saying that PIS and outliers don't exist?Embracetophats said:
Are you out of your ******* mind? Of course, they do - to say otherwise would be to state that every story ever told is perfectly written.
Do you believe in Bullet-Level Durability God Goku, or 1-A Iceman for defeating Oblivion, because "outliers don't exist".
Also, "They are the all the desire and work of the author" what is this wanking of an author's authority of his verse? Have you heard of the logical fallacy called Death of the Author? An author's intent is meaningless to how its works are interpreted. If Akira Toriyama said that Goku had 1-A levels of strength, would you believe him because, it was "desire of the author"? No, you wouldn't, or at least you shouldn't.
And it's not about the readers' personal opinion, it's about the consistency.
For example, if you are given a set of ten feats all from one character that doesn't undergo any difference in power within the series - 7 of those feats being 7-C level feats, 2 of them being 9-B level feats, and 1 being a 4-A level feat.
Then consistency would dictate that both the 9-B and 4-A level feats are outliers as the numerous 7-C level feats are far more consistent.
That's the point and how characters are tiered, especially here on VS Battle Wiki.
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something confused me. does a Hadou God's Law Creates all creation/new world or their Taikyoku? or they create creation by forming and shaping singularity? cuz Mercurius called singularity as center of the all creation and eminating of law/painting cosmo must to be started from singularity. also Marie melted Ren into the singularity too (in Marie Route)
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There's one thing that confuses me in KKK. How can Reizen and Yakou be sensories of Hajun? ...How the hell does it work?
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@Infera
Um no. They create the entire worlds/creation through the Throne. It's why it exists in the first place as Gods spiritual density is so heavy by nature they will just end up destroying all of creation by accident. Throne serves as a way to stop this and also allow them to create new universes. Pretty sure that "center of all creation" refers to Throne and not Singularity
@TonySansNom
For Yakou, he was created by Ryuusui fantasies and taping unconsciously into her Taikyoku. Hajun just happened to see him and decided to turn him into his sensory so he can be his "shit cleaner" so his law can be completed. Because of Yakou being turned into his sensory, he gained all sorts of abilities that includes his colorless Taiji, his heavenly eyes and even his Shikigamis.
As for Reizen, don't remember if he was ever stated to be Hajun sensory or not. All i remember is that, of all living things under Tengu Way, Reizen happened to be the one with the most strongest connection to Hajun hence why he's particularly more powerful than he ever was.
Um no. They create the entire worlds/creation through the Throne. It's why it exists in the first place as Gods spiritual density is so heavy by nature they will just end up destroying all of creation by accident. Throne serves as a way to stop this and also allow them to create new universes. Pretty sure that "center of all creation" refers to Throne and not Singularity
@TonySansNom
For Yakou, he was created by Ryuusui fantasies and taping unconsciously into her Taikyoku. Hajun just happened to see him and decided to turn him into his sensory so he can be his "shit cleaner" so his law can be completed. Because of Yakou being turned into his sensory, he gained all sorts of abilities that includes his colorless Taiji, his heavenly eyes and even his Shikigamis.
As for Reizen, don't remember if he was ever stated to be Hajun sensory or not. All i remember is that, of all living things under Tengu Way, Reizen happened to be the one with the most strongest connection to Hajun hence why he's particularly more powerful than he ever was.
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I know Yakou was born from Ryuusui's fantasies. It means he is not Hajun's sensory. You do not "make" someone your sensory, it's nonsense. Sensories are projections of a God.Dysmity said:
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þÑ×ÕÆÆþÑ×Õ¿üþÑ׵ѢÒü«ÕØéõ©èÞªçÕÉÉÒÇüµæ®ÕñÜþ¥àÕñ£ÞíîÒü«õ║îÕÉìÒü»ÒüØÒéîÒü×Òéîþò©Õ¢óÕÜóÞà½ÒÇüþ¼¼Õà¡Õñ®µ│óµù¼Òü«ÞºªÞªÜÒüºÒüéÒéï.
Quote states that Yakou is Hajun sensory
Õ¢╝Òü«µ¡úõ¢ôÒü»Ú¥ìµ░┤Òü«þò░Þâ¢Òü½ÒéêÒüúÒüªÒüØÒü«Õ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒüØÒü«ÒééÒü«ÒüïµêÉÒüòÒéîÒüƒÕ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒÇéÒüÖÒü¬ÒéÅÒüíÕ¢╝Òü«Õà¿ÒüªÒüºÒüéÒéïÞç¬ÕÀ▒µäøÒüÖÒéëÒÇüÕ¡ÉÕÑ│Òü«Õªäµâ│Òü½ÒéêÒéèõ©ÄÒüêÒéëÒéîÒüƒÒééÒü«Òü½Òü╗ÒüïÒü¬ÒéëÒü¬ÒüäÒÇéÒüØÒü«Õñ®þïùÚüôÒü½Õ¥ôÚáåÒüùÒüƒÒüéÒéèµû╣Òü½þø«ÒéÆõ╗ÿÒüæÒüƒµ│óµù¼ÒüîÒÇüÕÀ▒Òü«Õñ¬µÑÁÒü«ÕêçÒéîþ½»(µø░ÒüÅÞç¬ÕêåÒü«þ│×)ÒéÆõ©ÄÒüêÒÇüµ╗àÕ░¢µ╗àþø©Òü«õ┐âÚÇ▓ÕëñÒü¿ÒüùÒüªµ│óµù¼Òü«ÞºªÞªÜÒü¿Òü¬ÒüúÒüƒÒü«ÒüîþÅ¥Õ£¿Òü«Õ¢╝ÒÇéµ│óµù¼Òü«Þ¿ÇÞæëÒéÆÕǃÒéèÒéîÒü░ÒÇüÒÇîÕíÁ(Ú¥ìµ░┤)Òü«þ│×ÒéÆÞç¬ÕêåÒü«þ│×Òü«Õ▒▒Òü½ÞÉ¢Òü¿ÒüùÒüƒÒéëÒüºÒüìÒüƒõ║òÒü«õ©¡Òü«ÞøÖÒÇì
Quote mentions how Yakou was turned into Hajun sensory after his creation and gave him various abilities (which are in the long run "a piece" of Hajun Taikyoku) to promote and accelerate the Tengu Way
This just means any God can make anyone they like a Sensory. It's not nonsense but if you think it is, blame the authir for adding it
Quote states that Yakou is Hajun sensory
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Quote mentions how Yakou was turned into Hajun sensory after his creation and gave him various abilities (which are in the long run "a piece" of Hajun Taikyoku) to promote and accelerate the Tengu Way
This just means any God can make anyone they like a Sensory. It's not nonsense but if you think it is, blame the authir for adding it
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There's a lot of shit that should be added. What are sensories and how the **** do they even work is one of those. That Mercurius isn't even the name of the mercurial snake also should be added.
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Yes thats why we just had Masada matches banned so we can focus on Revising the verse.TonySansNom said:
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PsychoWarper said:
you guys seriously need evidence for the Throne being 1-A more than anything.
you need a quote that says "the throne is beyond the concept of dimensional hierarchies itself"
it cant be "the throne is outside of the dimensions it creates" or "the throne is outside of reality" because that alone does not prove 1-A.
you also need to prove that the throne itself is 1-A physically and doesnt just reside in a 1-A space without it having the same characteristics as that space, as per wiki policy: "Also, mere capability to exist in a beyond dimensional domain does not qualify a character as a beyond dimensional being."
finally, "hyperdimensonal" only means "higher than 3D" in most dictionaries. that is why we call 4D cubes "hypercubes". just saying something is "hyperdimensional" or "resides in the outer universe" doesnt qualify something for 1-A. nor does saying "human language cant describe it" since incidentely, around the same time kamui kagura was released, Neil Degrasse Tyson described a hypercube as "something that the human mind / human thoughts cant even compreend"
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Warren Valion said:
1- Goku is justified via the need for ki to give him superhuman durability
2- Iceman VS Oblivion was explained to me by someone when i brought it up and they gave scans and explained that it was just an avatar of oblivion, not the real deal, so bad example.
3- "what is this wanking of an author's authority of his verse". says the member of the fandom scaling reinhard to madara and amakusa via tweets and similar things.
4- i am not putting the desires of the author here at all. i am merely going by the text they wrote in their official works
5- "it is about consistency". you are effectively saying your personal take on it is above the actual written work. also, that implies that you know all the facts correct all the time and let me tell you that you dont on a multitude of series on this very page and have failed to be correct for many years now
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Can you rewrite that same argument without ad-hominems?
And without an entire hyperverse worth of spacing?
And without an entire hyperverse worth of spacing?
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Yes thats why we just had Masada matches banned so we can focus on Revising the verse.
you guys seriously need evidence for the Throne being 1-A more than anything.
you need a quote that says "the throne is beyond the concept of dimensional hierarchies itself"
it cant be "the throne is outside of the dimensions it creates" or "the throne is outside of reality" because that alone does not prove 1-A.
you also need to prove that the throne itself is 1-A physically and doesnt just reside in a 1-A space without it having the same characteristics as that space, as per wiki policy: "Also, mere capability to exist in a beyond dimensional domain does not qualify a character as a beyond dimensional being."
finally, "hyperdimensonal" only means "higher than 3D" in most dictionaries. that is why we call 4D cubes "hypercubes". just saying something is "hyperdimensional" or "resides in the outer universe" doesnt qualify something for 1-A. nor does saying "human language cant describe it" since incidentely, around the same time kamui kagura was released, Neil Degrasse Tyson described a hypercube as "something that the human mind / human thoughts cant even compreend"
To my knowledge 3 to 4 threads have been made questioning the Throne being 1-A and guess what each time the Throne was proven to be 1-A so no we dont.
you guys seriously need evidence for the Throne being 1-A more than anything.
you need a quote that says "the throne is beyond the concept of dimensional hierarchies itself"
it cant be "the throne is outside of the dimensions it creates" or "the throne is outside of reality" because that alone does not prove 1-A.
you also need to prove that the throne itself is 1-A physically and doesnt just reside in a 1-A space without it having the same characteristics as that space, as per wiki policy: "Also, mere capability to exist in a beyond dimensional domain does not qualify a character as a beyond dimensional being."
finally, "hyperdimensonal" only means "higher than 3D" in most dictionaries. that is why we call 4D cubes "hypercubes". just saying something is "hyperdimensional" or "resides in the outer universe" doesnt qualify something for 1-A. nor does saying "human language cant describe it" since incidentely, around the same time kamui kagura was released, Neil Degrasse Tyson described a hypercube as "something that the human mind / human thoughts cant even compreend"
To my knowledge 3 to 4 threads have been made questioning the Throne being 1-A and guess what each time the Throne was proven to be 1-A so no we dont.
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Pressing X for doubt here.PsychoWarper said:
besides just knowing how authors operate via being friends with actual writers and having created such projects myself, it makes no financial sense for something like a writer not to establish a collective universe in the 21st century because it increases the longevity of their work and career. most authors also plan ahead a lot, especially if their content output doesnt have to be as rushed as weekly manga releases
furthermore:
the Marie route alone already established the following:
1- hadou and gudou distinctions
2- hadou and gudou gods mechanics in regards to the range of their laws and their limitations
3- the throne
4- the singularity
5- the fact that hadou gods replace each other over time and each creates their own version of the world
additionally, from what i have been told regarding Paradise Lost, there are routes where Satanael won and became god. just that principle alone makes it very easy for an author to combine it with point 5 to establish a collective universe.
also, from the very moment Dies Irae was created, Pantheon was being telegraphed and you didnt even notice it. Naraka mentions the Sephiroth as his goal. the spheres on the Sephiroth arent regular spheres. they are actually 4 concentric spheres. each larger sphere is made up of atziluth briah yetzirah and assiah. from the very moment he made the decision to use these names, Masada was already telling you "i want to get 10 people to god level, each ruling their own world and then i want to have a teamup". not to mention the blatant content on the sephiroth if you go on the Paradise Lost of the AtWiki
furthermore, on the notion of Taikyoku, bearing in mind minor alterations and just the fact that every installment of the universe gives different names for the same thing, Paradise Lost already has the notion that the angels have the "protection from heaven" (someone else's terminology, not mine), which is the power from higher dimensions and requires a similar power for them to be harmed. Finally, while i have seen no profiles, i have seen mentions to entities called "dust angels" which are considered emissaries of the throne and that "heaven" is just another name for the throne.
so in short, everything from the god rotation system and taikyoku was already there since Paradise Lost and the Marie Route alone. if for some reason you didnt need taikyoku to harm gods in Dies Irae, that could be theoretically due to the invulnerability coming from having attained or connected to the throne in some way rather than just having taikyoku by itself
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PsychoWarper said:
you need to justify it on your lore page and make it available to people. you should also provide a translation.
you want to have an explanation page without explaining the main crux of your scaling? that makes no sense. at the bare minimum, each hadou god profile should link to the thread where you arrived at that conclusion.
people dont have to take you at your word. if you want to say you are a reliable source and an archiving page, then provide sources and actual archived evidence
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Aight bruh fix your ******* spacing jesus ******* christ.
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you need to justify it on your lore page and make it available to people. you should also provide a translation.
you want to have an explanation page without explaining the main crux of your scaling? that makes no sense. at the bare minimum, each hadou god profile should link to the thread where you arrived at that conclusion.
people dont have to take you at your word. if you want to say you are a reliable source and an archiving page, then provide sources and actual archived evidence
Did you actually read what I said or did you just ignore it cause it doesnt support your argument?
you want to have an explanation page without explaining the main crux of your scaling? that makes no sense. at the bare minimum, each hadou god profile should link to the thread where you arrived at that conclusion.
people dont have to take you at your word. if you want to say you are a reliable source and an archiving page, then provide sources and actual archived evidence
Did you actually read what I said or did you just ignore it cause it doesnt support your argument?
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"ah yes, we totally have evidence. we are just not going to show you and you have to dig through dozens to hundreds of threads on this wiki on your own because we arent going to link anything or show you the outright scans"
yeah man, i am sure that the police officer that pulls me over will trust i have a license if i dont show it to him
yeah man, i am sure that the police officer that pulls me over will trust i have a license if i dont show it to him
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