Massive TOG Revisions (General Discussion + Some General Revisions)

This post has been sort of pas

Low 7-C Ratings

We rate Tower of God as Low 7-C based on this calc: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:RinkakuKagune/Anak_Speed_and_KE_Calc

It is a fine calc, but it is wrong.

>Anak uses a spear quickly to get these results.

While yes, she is MHS. This is not an issue, the issue is that scales more to reaction speed then it does attack speed.

Even in the calc, it states this to be attack/reaction speed, and we cant use this speed due to the KE changes we have recently done, so the sword swing doesn't apply here anyway.

For this one, I am unsure which tier we will replace it with, however a skyscrapper was destroyed and since Khun and Baam survived it, this might be a good replacement

https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-2-ep-51/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=131 This one will need to be calced, but it is def tier 8, possibly higher.

https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-2-ep-25/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=105 This can also be used to scale Anak back to Koon Ran since he did the feat.

There is quite a few calcs that can replace for AP, but we can't use the original calc for AP. It is reaction speed and also does not fit into our KE standards.

Low 7-B Ratings

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:RinkakuKagune/Baam_and_Hansung_Yu_Attack

This calc uses a blatant high end. It uses the absolute highest mountain in the Andes while it should be the average instead. It is how we apply most sizes for things we do not know. IE: This bomb can destroy a city, so we use the 'average' city to get the value.

I asked DMUA what the value would be if we used a smaller mountain, which he said would be 7-C.

Also, I find the art appeal of 'it looks like the andes, must be the tallest mountain!' to be so weak it aint even funny. There are far smaller mountains. This needs to be recalced.

Thankfully,

We have the Name Hunt Shaking Feat which is High 7-C. The downgrade here will likely just be 'At least High 7-C'..

6-C Ratings


So generally speaking, we get the 6-C ratings from two feats.


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Jobbo/Maschenny_feat_recalc.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Jobbo/Baam_floor_shaking_calc

The first one is technically fine, however the storm is..weird

For one, alot of the sources I have below implies it is more of just a ball of lightning then it is a 'storm'. So even if we accepted it, CAPE would likely be better considering the battlefield was blatantly unstable for a storm and throughout the fight, there was no even effects implying it was a storm. Clouds were always there, all Mascheny did was apply thunder to it and make it a thunder storm.

I am fine with calling it 'KE' since she still had to create the clouds, but CAPE might be more accurate. Even then, considering it used the horizon distance as a low end, we could just use this calc instead for the value.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:DMUA/Standard_calculation_for_just_any_old_generic_storm Honestly think we should just apply the 7-A value for standard storm here.

CAPE and Condensation yield Low 7-B

IMO: Lets just rate everyone who scales to Mascheny and Jahad to At least Low 7-B, likely 7-A. The 6-C calc is a high end for storms.

We have other feats as well that can be calced for high results (although admitedly not beyond tier 7) https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-2-ep-289/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=370 This one has Mascheny blatantly vaporize a cone. https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-2-ep-292/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=373 This one has Baam vaporizing alot of land https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-2-ep-294/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=375 Khun freezes stuff https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-2-ep-295/viewer?title_no=95&episo de_no=376


The second one on the other hand is not fine, we do not know if Baam shook the entire hidden floor. We don't even see the implication of this when Group B such as when Khun, Endorsi etc were on the same floor, they did not feel the quake. It is probably better to use the horizon distance on this one. Obviously, we have a multiplier in place for some of Baam's transformations so these will be changed with it.

Thankfully, the speed is mostly fine. However, we are just getting started.


As we already discussed, the first calc can't be used. So we are going to have to find a feat. We also this feat to scale more then just Anaak and Ran, who 'did' the feat. If we go with my above suggestion, the value would be applied to basically everyone; with the exception of Anaak, Endorsi, Bam, Anaak and Ran will get the 'At least' value attached to the result. Considering those four are way above Khun in combat skill.


The scaling otherwise for this arc is fine.


Honestly just merge the two keys lol. Alot of the tiering is basically the same, the High 7-C is probably fine and we have far too many keys for Baam. Now click the next tabber my dude oof

Alot of my gripes with the scaling actually come from this Arc. So lets just jump into it.

Rankers and High Rankers We get to see two of them fight, Ha Jisung and Kallavan.. We currently scale them to 10 percent Urek through a scaling chain that basically reads as

Them? >=Urek Mazino 10 Percent >>>> Hell Joe >= Ha Yuri Zahard with 2 of the 13 Month Series.

The only issue that it is not 6-B, and not 6-B+. That will probably need to be changed.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:RinkakuKagune/Urek_Mazino_Attack

This is 10 percent of Urek, which is 29 Teratons.

Any Ranker in general that scales to Karaka or Ha Yuri Zahard should get this value of 5.8 Teratons. Small Country Level+, consistent with this feat https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Jobbo/Two_ToG_calcs.

The best part? Both of these feats were done by Urek semi casually, and we know Urek is far stronger then even the high rankers by a large margin. We can't scale them to 6-B+, there is no logic to this at all. Urek stomped Karaka, Hell Joe and was stated to be far stronger then Ha Yuri Zahard. The multipliers just do not work out, even with the Red Thyssa Transformation + Ha Yuri Zahard using two thorns. So cutting to the core, all Rankers in general will be downgraded to ' At Least Low 6-B, possibly 6-B.'

Using Urek to scale is a little fallacious, but considering Ha Yuri Zahard's feat is casual and Urek also being cut to 1 or 5 percent would be Low 6-B, this is probably the safest. Kallavon, Ha Jisung, Evanhekel etc are all much superior to Karaka and Ha Yuri Zahard so lets just give them a flat 6-B, but drop the + sign. This will be baseline 6-B based on the virtue this calc was already Low 6-B+.

Urek has also been implied multiple times throughout the series to be comparable to Zahard and his family. Well as we know, Enyru was capable of killing an Adminstrator.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Jobbo/Tower_of_God_administrator_calc. While we know Enyru is possibly superior to Urek and Jahad; this has never been directly been proven. We do know Enyru, Urek and Jahad and his family are all irregulars. Considering Irregulars were born with massive shinsoo resistance, the above as well as Urek being implied to be comparable to Jahad., Jahad, Urek and his family should get 'Likely 6-A'.

Suggestions:

High Rankers not in top 100; "At least Low 6-B, likely 6-B" - (All rankers are still above even Baam with the 13 month series and all of his Shinsoo.).

Charlie + Co: At least 7-A, likely Far Higher.

Baam: At least 7-A, possibly Low 6-B (Slightly damaged Kallavan.)

Kallavon, Ha Jisung, Evanhekel: 6-B (Superior to Baam and Ha Yuri Zahard.)

╠Â(Rejected)

Enyru: At least 6-A, possibly High 6-A (Superior to the Adminstrator of the 43rd floor and killed him; causing complete chaos and unpredictable shinsoo patterns on the floor.)

Phantanium: At least 6-A, likely High 6-A (Superior to Enyru by an unknown amount.)


Alot of Resistances by virtue of being in the Tower.

Shinsoo is a relatively complicated Magic System, however we are missing alot of resistances by sheer virtue of being in the tower.

Shinsoo acts as a sort energy field that impacts alot of characters in the show, and we are missing the general basis on how many of these abilities work

Everyone in the Tower should get:

Resistance to Madness Manipulation (Type 2 or 3, doesn't matter) and Fear Manipulation - Lero Ro describes those inside the tower can resist the shinsoo effects of the higher floors, which can drive other regular humans mad and cause them to fall into despair

https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-1-ep-10/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=11

https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-1-ep-11/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=12

We see this effects when Lero Ro uses Shinsoo on a regular, both driving him Mad as well as causing him to experience a brief stint of madness.

Minor Resistance to Disease Manipulation - While I am unsure what to call this, this is probably the best fit. We also see in the same chapter that same regular who went mad was also sick and vomiting, so other climbers should be similarly resistant to such negative effects.

Minor Resistance to Matter Immobilization - We already know that Reverse-Flow Control allows for brief stopping in freezing opponents on a molecular level. This one admitedly should not apply to everyone, however those who can move and walk in highly dense Shinsoo areas that would make it difficult to move in, such as the Liquid Pool on the first floor should have access to this ability. https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-1-ep-3/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=4

https://towerofgod.fandom.com/wiki/Shinsoo_Resistance

This is blatantly case by case, however we do know that Shinsoo in liquid form has been shown to be hard to move through due to density.

And obviously

Resistance to Energy Manipulation/ Energy Density - Shinsoo IS energy, now I am not saying Shinsoo can't hurt regulars/rankers. But Shinsoo Resistance is actually pretty common.

Rak for example actually was highly resistant to Shinsoo before he made it to the second floor

https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-1-ep-9/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=10

Shinsoo has been shown to basically those who have lived/fought in it to act like sort of 'drag'. It is one of the reasons why Swordsman are uncommon the higher you climb up the tower.

https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-1-ep-16/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=17

As we clearly see with Hatz in his fight with another Regular, who states that Shinsoo acts like friction, making moving things with high surface area such as a sword extremely difficult.

The closest application would be Friction Manipulation, but considering Shinsoo is basically Energy and acts like a sort of 'catch all' when you resist it, these things should be ideally listed on the profile.

Regis made a beautiful blog on Shinsoo that explains alot of Tower of God Mechanics, including Shinsoo

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:RegisNex1232/Tower_of_God_Intro_and_Settings

TLDR:

Season 2 (Up to Workshop Arc): Original calc value for Low 7-C cannot be used because it goes against our KE standards. Season 2 (Dallar Show Arc/Name Hunt): Other then for Baam and a few others; scale them to Endorsi. Season 2 (Hell Train/Data Zahard Arc): Change the scaling for Baam to be 'At least Low 7-B, likely 7-A'. Baam's floor shaking calc is invalid because there was no implication it shook the whole floor. The Low 7-B mountain bust feat needs to be recalced. Personally think the storm feat should use CAPE and the 6-C feat of shaking the floor is invalid/speculation .


This is somewhat messy compared to my other CRT's and I apologize for that; I am currently dealing with alot of family issues rn.

But this is becoming a ticking time bomb considering recent chaper, and I will only become active sometime next week.

Otherwise; let the discussion begin.

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Edit 1: Adminstrators get Empathy Manipulation (Suggested by Enryu)

As a side note, don't expect regular replies from Sins currently as he is dealing with some RL issues. He's asked me to help ensure this goes fine, and I will be answering questions for the most part. As for the OP, it's generally fine but more input is necessary.

I think SIU said in a Q&A that Zahard can't defeat a Guardian, so I think we couldn't scale Zahard and Urek to Enryu

Scaling Yuri, Karaka and the current Low 6-B to random Ranker ins't a good ideia, they are consistentily is showed being far superior most of Rankers that appears to the current story until now, principally Rankers and Top Rankers form Zahard's Army, that could be stronger than avarage Rankers in the entire Tower, because Karaka and White (Depowered) one-shot and killed effortless several Rankers from Zahard's Army, and Yuri was showed to be superior to Karaka sometimes and the rest of current Low 6-B has feats that I doubt the all Rankers could be make, as Sharon and Elphation resisted to Evankhell's fire that melt weakers Rankers living, Cheonhee forced Yuri use the Rose Shower in order to clash with her Vortex of Doom and took a enranged barrage from the same and still showed with no notable damage.

But I think Yu Han Sung and Dorian Forg needs a major downgrade by the way

But I think Dorian's Frog Ancient Frog is Low 6-B, because It easily blow away White (Depowered)

And Baam in True Self Mode with First Thorn Ignition by Kallavan himself, that even High Rankers couldn't hurt him in that way, so Charlie, Altar Director and other Ranker scaling to this Baam isn't good, even Baam in Black March Mode could kill Charlie and Altar Director in one attack while he could make Kallavan move while attacking with all his strength, is fallacious the weakers Rankers being stronger than Baam with his all buffs while the story showed the contrary

I agree with Enryu about the scaling for Yuri and Karaka and the current low 6Bs

I absolutely do agree with the abilities that are being proposed. Shinso unlike other abilities gives you advantages jsut from being in the tower

Also Baam in True Self Mode with First Thorn Ignition, Data Eduan and Data Zahard should be 7-B (10.88 Megatons), likely 7-A (267.76 Megatons) due to the scaling of the three being twice as strong as Data Maschenny with Redan and the three at Full Power should stay with AP and Dura thus: At least 7-B (32.64 Megatons), likely 7-A+ (803.28 Megatons)

Baam Base and Maschenny Base should have AP: Low 7-B (1.81 Megatons) likely 7-B (44.62 Megatons), because Maschenny Base is three times weaker than with Redan and Base Baam (Post-Revolution should be comparable to it ), Baam with First Thorn Boost must scaling being higher than Data Maschenny with Redan who is At least Low 7-B+, likely 7-A, because he managed to make a cut on Data Zahard, which Data Maschenny with Redan failed to even use her strongest technique and Baam in True Self Mode managed to overwhelmed the supressed Data Zahard who stomped his previous version

Also, I still think that some characters should climb to 59 Teratons, such as Ha Jinsung, Evankhell, Koon Royale Elliot and Kallavan in Essenece of Bravery Form, which makes sense since I've easily shrugged off everything Koon Maschenny Zahard we agreed to the new scaling will have AP of 29 Teratons) could throw at him and did not suffer any damage, only a little of his clothing was a bit ripped and could only hurt Jinsung when weakened, Kallavan in Essence of Bravery overpowered Jinsung as well as left all bloodied, Koon Royale Elliot matched Evankhell who was able to make Kallavan in Essence of Bravery Form scream in pain with her attacks.

While characters such as Transformed Hell Joe, Koon Maschenny Zahard and Base Kallavan must scaling to 29 Teratons

I am still busy and all, but I will drop the Ranker proposal. However, I need a definitive source regarding Zahard being unable to defeat a Guardian.

I also heard from someone that there was a source from a blog that Phantanium coud 'destroy' the tower, so I am hesitant to drop it just because it was said in a blog.

There is also more abilities such as Statistics Ampplification granted passively and there is more issues with Shisoo Manipulation (mostly just describing it more cleanly and succintly.)

I will come back to this in a few days with more stuff; but the AP scaling seems fine. @Enryu

@SinsofMan

'I need a definitive source regarding Zahard being unable to defeat a Guardian.'

In this post translation of the SIU chats and some Q&A mixed in one post, the thing about SIU said Zahard can't defeat a Guardian is in the last line:

https://www.reddit.com/r/TowerofGod/comments/7t8p4k/translation_of_a_korean_fans_qa_compilation/

SinsofMan said:

I also heard from someone that there was a source from a blog that Phantanium coud 'destroy' the tower, so I am hesitant to drop it just because it was said in a blog.

Click to expand...

This specific one "Phantaminum could instantly destroy the Tower of God story if he wanted to", is lost because of SIU's deletion of comments/blogs. Although trusted members in the community, that also speak Korean, have vouched for that quote.

But we do have a source for a very similar one "Perhaps the Tower of God webtoon will end the day he gets bored of the Tower..." (Translated by GoDai)

@SinsofMan

And also why do you think Zahard is capable of defeating a Guardian or even him being able to fight one? Is there any evidence for this?

I believe Rankers weakers like Charlie and Pedro should scaling to Baam in True Self Mode with Black March Ignition

I definitely agree cause it's obvious that the tankers were afraid of Baams power as well as the fact that Bam could apply pressure on them

Enryu The Red Tower said:

I believe Rankers weakers like Charlie and Pedro should scaling to Baam in True Self Mode with Black March Ignitio

Click to expand...

The rankers are far above Baam; so this would be an 'at least'. I am unsure what feat would best be used to scale for them considering no good 'feat' exists and the scaling is just...

Not good enough.

@Everyone

I modified the CRT; as the Jahad changes were Rejected and I should be more active.

I should also be more active then I was last week; but if I disappear, just know it is personal issues.

I think all Shinsoo Users should get their durability changed to to Street Level naturally; since it has been established numerous times throughout the series that not using Shinsoo for defense would lead to broken bones from high falls and Ha Yuri Zahard would die from minimal shinsoo when in Lava.

A 'small' change, as the only thing that really changes is how we phrase the durability.

Should look akin too Star Wars with Force Users.

@SinsofMan

Literally, it has been strongly shown that Baam in True Self Mode with Black March Ignition, as asserted by SIU that the attacks of this Baam being able to make Rankers like Charlie and Altar Director feel threatened and at the same time impressed when Baam destroyed the Whaley in one attack, which was claimed to be able to withstand attacks by Charlie's levels and Altar Director, or even Baam in this mode that I quoted is possibly superior to the two Rankers I quoted

About the shinsoo, I would like to see about Yuri being killed by lava, it can potentially be an outlier, since characters 4-A to 3-A have also been shown to be damaged by lava, and the same does not ignore conventional hax

About the Street level Literally it has been shown that even non-direct attacks from Ignition weapons that ToG people use, are able to withstand, like Baam being damaged by a direct attack from Data Zahard's Coelacanth and not dying, that is not definitely Street level just as Karaka blocked Yuri's Nuclear Punch without any damage, which is a direct attack, only being pushed away, as Ran converting his shinsoo into real lightning to attack Novick as well these to tanked it, Urek easily defeat Hell Joe transformed without shinsoo and other examples that I can not cite as they are large

Current Bam is definitely able to pose threats to rankers stronger than Charlie as of now

@SinsofMan

In addition, you should put in OP, that Administrators (Tower of God), must be Empathic Manipulation because one of them have a contract with Yeon Hana to sealing any emotions relationed about love to the opposite sex

Enryu The Red Tower said:

snip

Click to expand...

I am fine with it, I will add that.

As for what you said.

Going from the bottom up: There is already plenty proof of shinsoo being used to augment physical stats; going back even to the first season.

https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-1-ep-40/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=41

https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-2-ep-195/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=276

TBF it was Acid but the point is still the same. Shinsoo strengthens the body. It is a blatant fact in the series. Ignoring this because it is an 'outlier' or because of incredulity just does not work.

We can assume 99 percent of the time residents of the tower just use Shinsoo passively anyway, this is just clarification. But they are street level without it; due to surving big falls.


Endorsi and Anaak were both put out of commission because they couldn't reinforce their body with Shinsoo; in other words it is a mechanic of the power system.

Shinsoo makes you stronger and makes the residents similar to Force Users.


Also, Rankers were not afraid of Baam because he was as strong as them; but because Baam was an irregular.

There is plenty of PIS moments with Baam if you wanna take it this far.

1. When he injured Urek Mazino yet rankers could not; probably because both have high shinsoo resistances.
   
   
   • Him fighting with Hell Joe for a very brief period of time.

https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-2-ep-329/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=410

Literally no one Baam fought in this chapter was even damaged by him except with literally all of his power and over exhausting his body and even then he only 'slightly' damaged Kallavon.

Frankly, it is an outlier for him to even do so considering multiple people in this arc stated that Baam could not defeat a ranker

All the time they were 'scared' of Baam was because he was an Irregular. Nothing more or less. It is fallacious to assume otherwise.

Yes, Baam injured Kallavon, but Kallavon wasn't even phased and didn't even notice the attack until someone pointed it out to him.

https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-1-ep-31/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=32

And then plenty more examples; such as being stated multiple times White fused would be easily able to kill Baam (albeit this was before his training in the hidden floor admittedly.)

So no, I am not budging on either the durability being changed or Baam being ranker level. This is just people afraid of Baam's development and him being an irregular; Charlie and literally any other ranker would kill Baam easily.

https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-2-ep-323/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=404

Even Hawyrun stated this that is Baam just ran in there; he would die and the chance of him even saving his friend was so low she had doubts it was 'possible'

"But he did save them!"

Just because he was right and she was wrong on this one point does not mean Baam is even close to Charlie. Again, Uninjured and he still had to flee or otherwise be killed.


Since I copied this off google docs; stuff is randomly bolded.

TLDR: Baam scaling to Charlie is based on cherrypicking and ignoring the words of a guide, another ranker and even ignoring the fight. All rankers get an 'At least 7-A', since they are far above Baam.

Also, Shinsoo has stated plenty of times the lack of it makes the user comparable to typical humans. Literally nothing else change except we add a 'street level' end Naturally and keep the durability the exact same.

Also, sorry for the lack of scans, I have bad interent atm and I am linking the full chapters.

Considering these are big revisions, I recommend reading the whole chapter and other chapters just for context.

I do agree that scaling Baam to Charlie is a bit iffy, but for the Shinsu stuff, that needs more analysis since there are non Shinsu attacks that people have failed to easily shrug off.

RegisNex1232 said:

I do agree that scaling Baam to Charlie is a bit iffy, but for the Shinsu stuff, that needs more analysis since there are non Shinsu attacks that people have failed to easily shrug off.

Click to expand...

For the record in general, I wont be surprised if there are other, non-shinsoo attacks being higher then Street Level. It is a general placeholder.

Considering the Shinsoo page needs to be revised anyway, it might be best to save that for another thread.

However, it is clear that tanking stuff with Shinsoo is what gives 99 percent of the durability feats in the verse.

"Also, Rankers were not afraid of Baam because he was as strong as them; but because Baam was an irregular."

Literally, practically most members of the Zahard's Army squadron with the exception of Kallavan and Elpathion (they only discovered this much later) knew that Baam was an irregular one, so much so that none of the few Rankers who read Zahard's three orders did not understand why Zahard wanted to kill the regulars in the Hell Train, even both Cheonhee, Sharon, Charlie, Altar Director, Stuah Arthur and others did not know that Baam was a regular, so much so that these I quoted just called him "This regular is insane !! ", as I mentioned earlier, Charlie and Altar Director being forced to deflect from Baam's attacks and as the same destroying the Whaley in one attack, which must withstand Ranker level attacks to impress the two, as later when Baam activated the Black March Mode he destroyed Altar Director's Jungle Angry Monster and Charlie's Light Panorama at the same time, which went through the two Rankers attacks directly without any problems as they said that if one of these caliber hit them, they would be dead.

"Literally no one Baam fought in this chapter was even damaged by him except with literally all of his power and over exhausting his body and even then he only 'slightly' damaged Kallavon."

That was stated by the same that normal High Rankers would not be able to damage Kallavan in the state he was in, although Baam used everything he had in that attack, as well as I doubt that Yu Han Sung or Dorian Frog would do the same damage as Baam made in Kallavan.

"There is plenty of PIS moments with Baam if you wanna take it this far.

1. When he injured Urek Mazino yet rankers could not; probably because both have high shinsoo resistances.
   
   
   • Him fighting with Hell Joe for a very brief period of time."

Yes, I know that Baam hurting Urek and "fightning" Hell Joe are a massives outliers, so much so that I did not want to quote these

"Even Hawyrun stated this that is Baam just ran in there; he would die and the chance of him even saving his friend was so low she had doubts it was 'possible'

"But he did save them!"

Just because he was right and she was wrong on this one point does not mean Baam is even close to Charlie. Again, Uninjured and he still had to flee or otherwise be killed."

You know that the guides are not able to see the future and fate of the Irregulars, right? Yes, even Charlie claiming Baam's attacks in True Self Mode with Black March Ignition being insane and impressing him and even Baam activating the Black March Mode and then testing an attack that easily destuiru the shinsoo techniques of Charlie and Altar Director that the two claimed that this attack would kill them if they hit, clearly this shows that Baam in these two modes is above Rankers.

"So no, I am not budging on either the durability being changed or Baam being ranker level. This is just people afraid of Baam's development and him being an irregular; Charlie and literally any other ranker would kill Baam easily."

Literally, again, no one from Zahard's Army who was on the Last Station other than Kallavan, knew that Baam was an irregular one, so much so that many characters in Kallavan's squad called Baam "This Regular is insane!!" or "what kind of Regular is this ?!?!"

"TBF it was Acid but the point is still the same. Shinsoo strengthens the body. It is a blatant fact in the series. Ignoring this because it is an 'outlier' or because of incredulity just does not work.

We can assume 99 percent of the time residents of the tower just use Shinsoo passively anyway, this is just clarification. But they are street level without it; due to surving big falls."

Did you forget when Baam one-shot Amigochaz without shinsoo with a single punch? Even when Baam was a Wave Controller and did not use physical force to attack because it was not his strong point? Just as Urek outmatched Hell transformed Joe and did the same fainting, even using Joe using Shinsoo to enforce his body.

Urek 10% without shinsoo is 29 Teratons and Urek 10% with shinsoo is 59 Teratons, simple

"All the time they were 'scared' of Baam was because he was an Irregular. Nothing more or less. It is fallacious to assume otherwise."

In fact, it is fallacious to assume that all soldiers from Zahard's Army who were in the Last Station knew that Baam is an Irregular, if they really knew Baam was an Irregular, they had no reason to wonder why Zahard wants a bunch of dead Regulars and my other quotes above belies all the soldiers know about Baam being an Irregular, so much so that Elpathion discovered this during the middle of the battle and was surprised, which also belies your argument.

"Yes, Baam injured Kallavon, but Kallavon wasn't even phased and didn't even notice the attack until someone pointed it out to him."

Yes, I know that, but Kallavan was surprised and even talked about even High Rankers not being able to hurt him that way even in that state.

In addition, you can also add in the OP, that any Ragular must have Immortality (Type 1) be replaced by Longevity? Since it was affirmed by Baam that by the fact that Ha Chai has rejected to become a Ranker, it has made that it does not have the eternal youth and it grows aging weakening, which also must reinforce that only Rankers, High Rankers and others must possess Accelerated Development (Passive), while we must remove this from the profile of anyone who is a regular.

In addition, another proof that Data Zahard, Baam in True Self Mode with Black March Ignition, Baam in Black March Mode and Baam in True Self Mode with First Thorn Ignition is ranker or stronger, is because one of the recent blogs of SIU's about Season 3 of Tower of God, state that Ha Chai is the weakest master Baam ever had, which puts Data Koon Eduan above Ha Chai, who was claimed to have reached the top of the Tower and to have become a Ranker if he had not rejected that offer.

Also, to say that Baam to be an Irregular is reason for Rankers rather than his strength is a weak argument, Rachel is also an Irregular, and even people like Aguero and among others knowing this, no one fears her, they treat her as too weak in relation to the other Irregulars, even if the Rankers knew Rachel was an Irregular and then discovered that she was different from previous Irregulars, I bet they would call her too weak

@Enryu No, you missed my point entirely Enryu. Baam is not even close to Ranker level. There is no proof that that they knew he was an irregular like you claim. In fact, the only person that knew was a Ranker from Kallavons squad and Kallavon himself. That is it. Even Charlie didnt know and when they saw him, Again, he was afraid because he was unusually powerful for D Rank Regular. Not because he can beat them. That is why I phrased it that way.

Because his abilities are beyond regulars, but probably standard fair for irregulars.

And again, he didnt injure any of the rankers and he barely injured Kallavon in the very slightest of ways. Just because Baam did injure Kallavon does not mean he is close to Ranker level. Also, Guides can see the future of Irregulars. You just made that up. The only thing Guides cannot do is see HOW the future changes because of Irregulars.

Otherwise, how would Hwaryun tell Wagnan how to get Baam and his friends to meet during the workshop arc? They can see the future of Irregulars, they just cannot see how Irregulars change the future.

Regarding Baam one shotting without Shinsoo, you also conveniently did not argue why Baam was not a certain tier or even Argue why the people in the tower are the same tier without shinsoo. Baam is being a wave controller is irrelevant. My argument is that without shinsoo, tower residents are weaker then with it. Also, Shinsoo passively makes the body stronger, so unless you have a scan saying he did not use Shinsoo to attack and the guy didnt use Shinsoo to defend, then my point stands.

Shinsoo makes people passively strong, beside that, you are like... Well, somewhere. Regis told me a feat of them surviving an explosion without it. So for now, Street Level naturally is a placeholder. Any feat that is higher will be their natural end, and literally nothing changes except we acknowledge Shinsoo effects natural durability scaling.

Finally, going to the Irregular argument. My point is not that they were afraid of Baam because they can die to him but because he was far stronger then the other regulars. You should know this so I dont need to get into it. What I will get into however is even if Baam could kill Charlie with literally everything; 90 percent of the fight Charlie was uninjured and kept up with Baam very easily.

So should we throw this statement in, despite the fact in the fight Charlie was uninjured and seemed to be enjoying Baam being cocky? Sorry, not buying it. That would be blatant cherry picking if I did. I kept Baam's tier the same because him injured Kallavon slightly was impressive and it is obviously in a far higher realm then him fighting Charlie. But I kept Possibly because again, no one in this arc was really...injured by Baam. Even with Ignition. Kallavon was the slightest bit damaged but probably because of Baams Shinsoo Resistance and Ease of Control thanks to him being an irregular. We saw this with Urek as well.

If I was being pragmatic, I too would call this an outlier.

Also, edit your message instead of typing multiple messages Enryu. I dont want to make another thread and you are needlessly clogging up the thread with multiple replies.

I also wont add anymore changes until I hear more thoughts on this. Edit: We have accepted most of the stuff in my CRT with the exception being Ranker scaling. And we denied Jahad scaling to Enryu. Until this one point gets agreed upon with every supporter of the verse, we should not add more stuff to the CRT.

I completely agree with Sins on the Ranker scaling. There are only a few exceptions where Ranker < non Ranker and those are probably just PIS/SIU forgetting about powerscaling.

And about the durability thing. I agree, it's completely blatant that shinsoo enhances durability and all that, that's a fact. But it's not a street level difference, I would argue it's even a relatively small difference.

There was a fight, I don't remember which one this was a while back when Baam had long hair, where someone told him that he was weak physically and he shouldn't expect to get far in the Tower if he didn't train his physical body (I'm paraphrasing but that was the implication).

And there was also the time when Baam with the Thorn rage mode attacked a caught of guard Daniel without shinsoo enhancement and just broke his legs. Yeah I said "just", but that's because if Daniel was street level in durability he would've been atomized with that AP difference. So while the durability is a lot less without shinsoo enhancement, it shouldn't be street level.

Adori Zahard was able to beat a ranker when she was a regular also she was able to beat Garam a High Ranker when she was a ranker.

"No, you missed my point entirely Enryu. Baam is not even close to Ranker level. There is no proof that that they knew he was an irregular like you claim. In fact, the only person that knew was a Ranker from Kallavons squad and Kallavon himself. That is it. Even Charlie didnt know and when they saw him, Again, he was afraid because he was unusually powerful for D Rank Regular. Not because he can beat them. That is why I phrased it that way."

Yes, everything I've quoted above about Baam feats shows that he is at Ranker level or higher, until the SIU himself said that the Baam attacks were dangerous for Charlie and Altar Director on one of his blogs during the Last Station Arc, no, it was stated that even the Kallavan's squad members did not know they had an Irregular on the Hell Train, they thought everyone on the Hell Train was allies of FUG, which is why the members from Kallavan's squad listened to their superiors, Kallavan knew, why would they be afraid of a Regular D-Rank? What you're talking about does not make sense, if we follow your logic, anyone above C-Rank Ragular or above is capable of putting fear in Rankers, which does not make sense

"Because his abilities are beyond regulars, but probably standard fair for irregulars."

Yes, but it's no reason to try to downplay the fact that Baam's attacks in True Self Mode with Black March Ignition were dangerous for both Rankers and that more trade after joining in Black March Mode was stated to be able to kill them, them

"And again, he didnt injure any of the rankers and he barely injured Kallavon in the very slightest of ways. Just because Baam did injure Kallavon does not mean he is close to Ranker level. Also, Guides can see the future of Irregulars. You just made that up. The only thing Guides cannot do is see HOW the future changes because of Irregulars."

https://towerofgod.fandom.com/wiki/Irregular

https://towerofgod.fandom.com/wiki/Guide

"Otherwise, how would Hwaryun tell Wagnan how to get Baam and his friends to meet during the workshop arc? They can see the future of Irregulars, they just cannot see how Irregulars change the future."

This question will be answered with the link I sent above.

"Regarding Baam one shotting without Shinsoo, you also conveniently did not argue why Baam was not a certain tier or even Argue why the people in the tower are the same tier without shinsoo. Baam is being a wave controller is irrelevant. My argument is that without shinsoo, tower residents are weaker then with it. Also, Shinsoo passively makes the body stronger, so unless you have a scan saying he did not use Shinsoo to attack and the guy didnt use Shinsoo to defend, then my point stands."

Another feat of durability that I forgot, without shinsoo Urek tanked without scratches the shinsoo blasts from Hell Joe, possessed by Red Thryssa and you think any Family Head or Zahard without shinsoo being much inferior to Urek without shinsoo? Also as well as I doubt that Yuri, Cheonhee, White and others Rankers or High Rankers without shinsoo being much weaker than Kaiser, Ran and others with shinsoo.

"Shinsoo makes people passively strong, beside that, you are like... Well, somewhere. Regis told me a feat of them surviving an explosion without it. So for now, Street Level naturally is a placeholder. Any feat that is higher will be their natural end, and literally nothing changes except we acknowledge Shinsoo effects natural durability scaling."

So if we follow this logic, Yuri without shinsoo would be much weaker than Androssi or Elaine with shinsoo, which does not make sense.

"Finally, going to the Irregular argument. My point is not that they were afraid of Baam because they can die to him but because he was far stronger then the other regulars. You should know this so I dont need to get into it. What I will get into however is even if Baam could kill Charlie with literally everything; 90 percent of the fight Charlie was uninjured and kept up with Baam very easily."

??? As I said, being much stronger than normals D-Rank Regulars is not a justification for a Ranker to be afraid of the Baam, as it was stated that Baam in Black March Mode destroyed the two shinsoo techniques from Charlie and Altar Director and still by even after clashed with those two techniques, Baam's attack had not weakened and was still strong enough to kill the two, as Charlie stated, of course Charlie and Altar Director were left without a Baam attack, or if not them could have been mortally wounded or killed by the same

"So should we throw this statement in, despite the fact in the fight Charlie was uninjured and seemed to be enjoying Baam being cocky? Sorry, not buying it. That would be blatant cherry picking if I did. I kept Baam's tier the same because him injured Kallavon slightly was impressive and it is obviously in a far higher realm then him fighting Charlie. But I kept Possibly because again, no one in this arc was really...injured by Baam. Even with Ignition. Kallavon was the slightest bit damaged but probably because of Baams Shinsoo Resistance and Ease of Control thanks to him being an irregular. We saw this with Urek as well."

I mean, do you really think Rankers of Charlie's level, Altar Director, Yu Han Sung, Dorian Frog and others could hurt Kallavan just as Baam hurt him? And do you even think Kallavan is unimpressive? Rachel is an Irregular and yet she is not blessed by shinsoo, being Irregular is not a good excuse to state how Baam damaged Kallava, if we follow this logic, Rachel would easily be able to kill Aguero using shinsoo, seriously, again this thing of Baam hurting Urek? Are you even talking about Baam being able to hurt or kill Charlie and Altar Director being outliers and yet using the biggest outlier of the work so far to favor you? Also, we have no confirmation that it was Baam's shinsoo control that made him capable of hurting Urek and Kallavan, or else he would have easily killed Hoaqin, Daniel, Kaiser and other enemies he encountered with one baang or punch if we were to actually use Baam's feat against Urek as legitimate

you? Also, we have no confirmation that it was Baam's shinsoo control that made him capable of hurting Urek and Kallavan, or else he would have easily killed Hoaqin, Karaka and other enemies he encountered if we were to actually use Baam's feat against Urek as legitimate

"If I was being pragmatic, I too would call this an outlier."

Calling the consistent feats of Baam against Rankers being outliers is fallacious and false

"I also wont add anymore changes until I hear more thoughts on this. Edit: We have accepted most of the stuff in my CRT with the exception being Ranker scaling. And we denied Jahad scaling to Enryu. Until this one point gets agreed upon with every supporter of the verse, we should not add more stuff to the CRT."

In fact on the matter of replacing Immortality to Longevity was already discussed and approved, but only that it was not applied in the profiles.

Kevenkiller said:

Adori Zahard was able to beat a ranker when she was a regular also she was able to beat Garam a High Ranker when she was a ranker.

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The princesses in general are exceptions. SIU has said that even Androssi is physically superior to most Rankers. And Adori is even above that, she is stated to be the strongest princess and she has one of the thirteen month series, we don't know when she got it but she might've used it to defeat them.

Either way she is a huge exception.

Ogbunabali said:

The princesses in general are exceptions. SIU has said that even Androssi is physically superior to most Rankers. And Adori is even above that, she is stated to be the strongest princess and she has one of the thirteen month series, we don't know when she got it but she might've used it to defeat them.

Either way she is a huge exception.

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I mean, I really would doubt that Adori in the 44th Floor as Regular was really as strong or stronger than Data Zahard or Baam (Post-Revoultion) with his buffs

Enryu The Red Tower said:

snip

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You didn't quote anything, you just typed a bunch of stuff like me. If you were to quote someone, ideally you should back the chapter as evidence.

Wiki isn't evidence and you know it. I like the TOG wiki, but without a primary source, the wiki is to be taken with a grain of salt.

I also did not argue that any of the rankers are close to Kallavon's level; stop putting words in my mouth and start debating on the merits of what I actually said Enryu, it isn't that hard-.

Also, all I argued was that Irregulars were blessed with manipulating Shinsoo compared to typical residents. Which is true. Rachel is an outlier; not the norm.

This is a blatant strawman, you aren't arguing why Baam is Kallavon's level at this point, you just were arguing why Rachel cant do it and thus apparently all Irregulars dont fit this mold.

All Irregulars minus Rachel are blessed with this ability; evidenced by the fact literally half of the top 20 are irregulars and even if you dismiss that, Irregulars have been stated to be capable of forming contracts for shinsoo without an adminstrators help. And Baam himself has been shown extremely capable of manipulating Shinsoo for someone of his level.

Baam doesn't have any feats. You are cherrypicking.

-Charlie wasn't injured. (Arguing Baam could kill him when he wasn't injured throughout the fight would probably just be either PIS or just again with 100% of his power.)

-Urek was barely injured; but you can argue PIS or just argue Baam surprised Urek.

-Kallavon was injured with 100% of Baam's power and even then it was only a small scratch.

These are not consistent feats, only you think them to be and they are riddled with many errors.

Also, regarding that last part. I dont care if we use Longevity or Immortality. All I am saying is until we debate this one issue, I am not changing the CRT so we can diverge into other areas.

"I mean, I really would doubt that Adori in the 44th Floor as Regular was really as strong or stronger than Data Zahard or Baam (Post-Revoultion) with his buffs"

Ogbunabali did not argue that he was stronger then Data Zahard or Baam, he just said that Androssi is physically stronger compared to most Rankers.

Irregulars and those from the 10 families are obviously the exception; not the rule. Androssi could be physicaly stronger compared to Rankers (albeit I need a source.), but that wouldn't make her physically stronger then Jahad or Baam. Both of which lack physical feats.

I don't deal with hypotheticals and the amount of contradiction of all these feats has me inclined to be skeptical.

That is why he gets 'possibly Low 6-B'.

Charlie >>>>> Baam.

Going to hear more thoughts on the Shinsoo Manipulation for another CRT, but the scaling is iffy and should ideally be debated now.

Edit: Sorry for the second reply, but just going to sum it succintly so people don't have to read wall of text.

"SinsofMan said:

Irregulars and those from the 10 families are obviously the exception; not the rule. Androssi could be physicaly stronger compared to Rankers (albeit I need a source.), but that wouldn't make her physically stronger then Jahad or Baam. Both of which lack physical feats.

Click to expand...

Blog post. Although I was wrong it wasn't about her, but about those from the 10 families and the blood of Zahard.

"Although this doesn't fully apply to Androssi because she's not from one of the 10 Families, it is common to see a Princess who has the blood of one of the 10 Families and the power of Zahard to have basic physical capabilities that exceed those of a Ranker."

Guys you know, I do not care about it any more, you can put things the way you want, accuse me of being wanker or something like that I do not care about this CRT anymore, I'm going to retire from that site for a month, bye

Ogbunabali said:

snip

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Well, you were at the very least half right.

It would partially make sense for Androssi to be physically stronger since her Shinsoo skills aren't quite up to par with the other rankers and she is accustomed to lower Shinsoo density.. Admitedly tho, that is headcanon.

Enryu The Red Tower said:

snip

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I didn't accuse you of being a wanker, but if you need someone to talk too, I am here to chat my dude.

Hope you enjoy your break tho, we will try to hold off until you come back or at the very minimum keep you informed.

SinsofMan said:

I don't deal with hypotheticals and the amount of contradiction of all these feats has me inclined to be skeptical.
That is why he gets 'possibly Low 6-B'.

Charlie >>>>> Baam.

Click to expand...

If my opinion is still valid (which I do not think), as the reasons I mentioned above being really dubious with Charlie and other Rankers on this level being able to scratch Kallavan or being Low 6-B+ (which is a feat that Yuri performed with her Rose Shower, and as it was shown, even holding herself, she destroyed Pedro's Observer and later killed him with a punch after getting serious, and Pedro was stated by SIU being as strong as Karaka's subordinates who were capable to deal with Dorian Frog, who must be far stronger than Charlie, Altar Director or any Ranker at the level of these two latter), then I do not support this, this was my last comment regarding to this thread or anything related to ToG in this site

So I found the blog of SIU from Baam fight against Charlie I will give a link if anybody want to see it : https://www.reddit.com/r/TowerofGod/comments/a2f9nn/blog_translation_season_2_chapter_330/

Its pretty vague but Baam at full power is able to threatened a ranker is that ranker Level ... maybe maybe not. Personally I will wait to see what can Season 3 Full Power Baam can do to make a judgment.