Tower Of God's first major addition

[BeTheWay1rst]

Shinsu is based on the concept that water is the source of life and also an extension of that idea.

Shinsu is the source of everything and is also everything(life,matter/antimatter,soul,shadow, abilities,,,), shinsu is omnipresent and exist at every level of reality, it is the very essence of existence itself

Spoiler: scan1

As Shinsu is the world itself, manipulating the world is equal to manipulating Shinsu

Spoiler: scan2

Shinsu is also independent as it exist as itself.
Having your shinsu drained get you erased

Spoiler: Scan3

Erasing the Shinsu of something also get that thing erased
Once in it's area of influence, even beings that aren't Shinsu become Shinsu(The Irregulars)

This should be enough to grant Type 1 Concept and Type 2 Information (read https://vsbattles.com/threads/tower-of-gods-first-major-addition.175849/post-6934312 for more informations ) to Shinsu.

Agree with Type 1 Concept:
Agree with Type 2 Information:
Agree with both:

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

Be free to ask any question

 

[Digital_Franz]

Shinsu is also independent as it exist as itself.

Uh yeah no. Nothing supporting your claim here. Too weak for Type 1 Concept.

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

Uh yeah no. Nothing supporting your claim here. Too weak for Type 1 Concept.

Why ?

 

[Digital_Franz]

Why ?

Because you don't have any scans showing that Shinsu is independent of reality. You just say it like that. Everything I see just gives Type 2 Concept.

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

Because you don't have any scans showing that Shinsu is independent of reality. You just say it like that. Everything I see just gives Type 2 Concept.

Shinsu exist as itself, it doesn't have to be anything else, shinsu also have a qualitative superiority over matter...

Affecting whatever is made by shinsu doesn't mean affecting Shinsu itself.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Shinsu exist as itself, it doesn't have to be anything else, shinsu also have a qualitative superiority over matter...

Affecting whatever is made by shinsu doesn't mean affecting Shinsu itself.

That doesn't mean anything in itself. Space existing as itself doesn't mean it's necessarily a Type 1 Concept. Furthermore, destroying space doesn't also affect the Type 2 Concept of space, and the same goes for other Type 2 Concepts. So yeah, that's not enough.

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

That doesn't mean anything in itself. Space existing as itself doesn't mean it's necessarily a Type 1 Concept. Furthermore, destroying space doesn't also affect the Type 2 Concept of space, and the same goes for other Type 2 Concepts. So yeah, that's not enough.

Thread 'Questuon on Type 1 Conceptual Abstract Existence' https://vsbattles.com/threads/questuon-on-type-1-conceptual-abstract-existence.173888/
Post in thread 'Questuon on Type 1 Conceptual Abstract Existence' https://vsbattles.com/threads/questuon-on-type-1-conceptual-abstract-existence.173888/post-6834495

 

[Digital_Franz]

Thread 'Questuon on Type 1 Conceptual Abstract Existence' https://vsbattles.com/threads/questuon-on-type-1-conceptual-abstract-existence.173888/
Post in thread 'Questuon on Type 1 Conceptual Abstract Existence' https://vsbattles.com/threads/questuon-on-type-1-conceptual-abstract-existence.173888/post-6834495

Just because a concept is universal doesn't make it Type 1, no. As I said, universal concepts of space are by default Type 2. You have to prove that they are independent of reality to get Type 1. The post in question doesn't say anything that can help you here. Also, as the same person said, manipulating objects is not the same as directly manipulating the concept, which in your case means that affecting fire is not the same as directly affecting Shinsu.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Isnt there areas outside of the tower with no Shinsu?

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

Just because a concept is universal doesn't make it Type 1, no. As I said, universal concepts of space are by default Type 2. You have to prove that they are independent of reality to get Type 1. The post in question doesn't say anything that can help you here. Also, as the same person said, manipulating objects is not the same as directly manipulating the concept, which in your case means that affecting fire is not the same as directly affecting Shinsu.

Type 2:
You change all the objects? Then the concept changes as well.
You change the concept? Then all the objects change as well.
Type 1:
You change all the objects? The concept doesn't change.
You change the concept? All the objects change as well.

That's that's how you prove the type of a concept. The Type 1 is the exact description of Shinsu

 

[Digital_Franz]

Type 1:
You change all the objects? The concept doesn't change.
You change the concept? All the objects change as well.

You have to prove these two points and none of your scans do so.

 

[Arceus0x]

Yeah these scans have no mention of either concepts or anything that supports info hax. Additionally you don't get automatically erased when your shinsu is drained as otherwise Hell Joe would've auto erased everyone when he absorbed all the shinsu in the area.
This CRT is bunk. If you still think its salvageable then get a staff member here.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Yeah... No, I don't see either CM 1 or IM 2, so I disagree with this.

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

Yeah these scans have no mention of either concepts or anything that supports info hax. Additionally you don't get automatically erased when your shinsu is drained as otherwise Hell Joe would've auto erased everyone when he absorbed all the shinsu in the area.
This CRT is bunk. If you still think its salvageable then get a staff member here.

Just cause a thing isn't named concept/ doesn't mean it isn't a concept/info.
Hell Joe only drained the shinsu outside

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Is outside of the Tower considered another universe? because there is absolutely areas that have no Shinsu and aren't defined by it outside of the Tower.

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

Is outside of the Tower considered another universe?

Yes. The Tower is a separate dimension inaccessible if you are not a Irregular

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

More About Type 2 Info, Tower of God itself, in a sense, is a worldview where a gamified system is merged into their world Source
The Tower has a System, the Administrators are Administrators and the Irregulars are Users.

Spoiler: scan1

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

The Big Breeders are just like Admins(with lower control over the setting)

Spoiler: scan2

We also know that information are a fundamental aspect of the world as it contain body, spirit/soul, mind/memory/personality, power... it was first shown with the Hell Train guardians, then with the Hidden Floor where climbers can save theirs current self data inside the the system of the Hell Train.
You can convert peoples into data and then turn them back

Spoiler: Scan3

There is also the case of the "test subjects" of the Workshop having a spell that bring them back to life after being erased from the Tower or killed think to theirs saved informations

Spoiler: scan4

 

[Arceus0x]

I can more or less see info type 2 for Admins but definitely not concept hax.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Info manip seems reasonable for admins and such imo, but I definitely don't see anything suggesting concept manip. Especially not type 1.
Also i think it'd be a good idea to add the additional evidence you put in the thread to the OP, so staff members don't accidentally reject you because you didn't put crucial evidence in the OP itself

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

Info manip seems reasonable for admins and such imo, but I definitely don't see anything suggesting concept manip. Especially not type 1.
Also i think it'd be a good idea to add the additional evidence you put in the thread to the OP, so staff members don't accidentally reject you because you didn't put crucial evidence in the OP itself

About CM, can you elaborate ?
What about the Irregulars irregulars being free/transcendant from the system of the Tower?
I tired to add it but there is a max of 20 pics per post sadly

 

[DavidTPPM]

About CM, can you elaborate ? What about the Irregulars irregulars being free/transcendant from the system of the Tower?

I'll reply for this later, I'm busy rn

I tired to add it but there is a max of 20 pics per post sadly

Just link the images instead of posting them.
Like this

 

[DavidTPPM]

About CM, can you elaborate ?

Generally I don't see anything supporting concept manipulation. Just because manipulating shinsu is manipulating the world itself doesn't necessarily mean it's CM. Similarly oceans are made out of water so manipulating water is technically manipulating the ocean, but that doesn't make water manipulation CM.

What about the Irregulars irregulars being free/transcendant from the system of the Tower?

If the Irregulars are unaffected by the info/data manip of the admins and whatnot then I think you should have a case for type 2 info manip resistance.

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

Generally I don't see anything supporting concept manipulation. Just because manipulating shinsu is manipulating the world itself doesn't necessarily mean it's CM. Similarly oceans are made out of water so manipulating water is technically manipulating the ocean, but that doesn't make water manipulation CM.

You are not making sense bro, with your logic https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ichibē_Hyōsube shouldn't have CM Type 2 for controling the darrkness of the world, same with the core element in GoH.
My hands are made of atoms so manipulating my hands is technically atomic manipulation
Water manipulation can also be CM btw.
Shinsu is the fundamental aspect of reality, even informations and concepts are property of Shinsu.

 

[DavidTPPM]

You are not making sense bro, with your logic https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ichibē_Hyōsube shouldn't have CM Type 2 for controling the darrkness of the world,

I'm not super familiar with bleach (just 1 causal read for the story) but based on his profile description I don't think that's really the same. Ichibe seems to control the idea of darkness throughout all the realms.

same with the core element in GoH.

The core element is completely different tho. It's the essence of a being that straight up control how they interact with reality itself.

My hands are made of atoms so manipulating my hands is technically atomic manipulation

I mean yeah that's kinda the logic you're going with here ig?

Water manipulation can also be CM btw.

Yeah but my point is that water manipulation doesn't inherently have to be conceptual manipulation.

Shinsu is the fundamental aspect of reality, even informations and concepts are property of Shinsu.

That's pretty vague all things considered. Does changing shinsu in your hand affect reality itself or just the shinsu? Can you turn the shinsu in your hand and cause the entire world to light up in flames?

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

but based on his profile description I don't think that's really the same. Ichibe seems to control the idea of darkness throughout all the realms.

That's the same using your logic: the world of Bleach has darkness => manipulating darkness is technically manipulating the world of Bleah =>that doesn't darkness so manipulation CM

The core element is completely different tho. It's the essence of a being that straight up control how they interact with reality itself.

No, it is not, the core element is just the core element(a concept), whatever they do with it another thing(conceptual manupulation or contracts[law manip])

I mean yeah that's kinda the logic you're going with here ig?

Your logic was flowed when since from the start with your "technically"

Yeah but my point is that water manipulation doesn't inherently have to be conceptual manipulation.

"Doesn't inherently have to be"

That's pretty vague all things considered. Does changing shinsu in your hand affect reality itself or just the shinsu? Can you turn the shinsu in your hand and cause the entire world to light up in flames?

Just so you know, a concept is something and it's application is another, look at those with those kind of hax and you will see that they don't always do things that are that crazy or on the full range of their hax.
I have posted that taking the Shinsu of someone body get him erased, destroying the Shinsu of something also destroy that thing, stopping the Shinsu of something also stop that thing and so on... People have limitations like range and authority over Shinsu, only Administrators or above have full authority over Shinsu of their floor, so only them can do crazy stuffs.

 

[DavidTPPM]

That's the same using your logic: the world of Bleach has darkness => manipulating darkness is technically manipulating the world of Bleah =>that doesn't darkness so manipulation CM

What? The argument for Ichibe isn't that manipulating darkness is technically manipulating a part of the world. That's exactly the difference between Ichibes and your arguments.

No, it is not, the core element is just the core element(a concept), whatever they do with it another thing(conceptual manupulation or contracts[law manip])

Yeah I'm saying that's why it's a concept. Because it's essence of a being that decides how they interact with reality. Mujin manipulating Gaias core made it create a new earth with her soul inside of it. Manipulating the core element reflects upon reality itself.

That is in no way similar to what you described here.

Your logic was flowed when since from the start with your "technically"

?

"Doesn't inherently have to be"

Yeah? Because you could manipulate water using concept manip but you could also manipulate it through basic water manipulation or hell just by putting it in a cup and drinking it.

Just so you know, a concept is something and it's application is another, look at those with those kind of hax and you will see that they don't always do things that are that crazy or on the full range of their hax.
I have posted that taking the Shinsu of someone body get him erased, destroying the Shinsu of something also destroy that thing,

The same scans said "of course people who had their shinsu drained die soon after". So losing shinsu doesn't tie to no longer existing but to eventual death which doesn't exactly fit cm3 or cm1.

Furthermore your first scans explain that shinsu is everywhere and everything. So of course if your body is literally shinsu itself, having all of your shinsu absorbed would lead to you disappearing. To bring back the water comparison, it's like being made out of water and having all of the water in your body absorbed by something.

CM page straight up says this

Conceptual Manipulation involves the manipulation of concepts, and not the universe directly.

But according to your scans shinsu IS the universe itself.

stopping the Shinsu of something also stop that thing and so on...

Also an attribute of shinsu being "everything". I'm only 70% water but if you stopped all the water in my body I would sure as hell stop myself. Now imagine being made up entirely of a substance that someone stopped

 

[DavidTPPM]

Btw I'm not saying shinsu being the world itself means it can't be used for cm or be a concept. I'm saying there are easier and likelier interpretations for it than cm

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Not seeing CM, disagree.

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

Not seeing CM, disagree.

What else must i add to for it to be CM ?
As is said Shinsu is the source of everything and everything is also fundamentally Shinsu inside the Tower , be it energy, matter, antimatter, light, darkness/shadow, life, spirit/soul, mind/memory/personality, informations type 1/2, concepts, abilities, space and time.
As life come from Shinsu, it also returns to Shinsu at the end

Even thing/beings that come from the outside like the Irregulars are also subject to Shinsu and return to Shinsu at their death.
By manipulating the shinsu of something/one you also manipulate it/him. Shinsu also exist as Shinsu itself without being anything, with is logical since everything come from Shinsu.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Something being a fundamental building block of reality is not enough for Conceptual Manipulation. If everything is made of Shinsu, obviously manipulating it would effect whatever is made up of it.

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

Something being a fundamental building block of reality is not enough for Conceptual Manipulation. If everything is made of Shinsu, obviously manipulating it would effect whatever is made up of it.

But as I said Shinsu is more fundamental that anything inside the Tower, it is the very essence of existence itself, so what should it stands for then ?

 

[DavidTPPM]

But as I said Shinsu is more fundamental that anything inside the Tower, it is the very essence of existence itself, so what should it stands for then ?

I don’t see any evidence for it being some sort of abstract "essence of existence".
Your evidence seems to be more so making shinsu out to be like the atoms of the verse (or like I mentioned, the water in an ocean) which isn't exactly any specific ability

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

I don’t see any evidence for it being some sort of abstract "essence of existence".
Your evidence seems to be more so making shinsu out to be like the atoms of the verse (or like I mentioned, the water in an ocean) which isn't exactly any specific ability

Even if i show you a proof about it all you would say is "Your evidence seems to be more so making shinsu out to be like the atoms of the verse".
Anyway, even if Shinsu doesnt get conceptual manipulation, its statut shouldn't get lower than the other https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Metaphysical_Aspects

 

[ElajRuengies]

Literally no one is agreeing with this, including supporters of the Verse. Someone can close the thread.

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

Literally no one is agreeing with this, including supporters of the Verse. Someone can close the thread.

If you don't talk in the name of anyone here. If you don't agree with anything say it then defend your position.

 

[Arceus0x]

If you don't talk in the name of anyone here. If you don't agree with anything say it then defend your position.

he can disagree FRA bro, and yes, nobody in this thread has agreed with this

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

he can disagree FRA bro

Yes he can, but he didn't.

nobody in this thread has agreed with this

While it's true that everyone did disagree with CM, the same thing can't be said about Type 2 Info, everyone was so focused on CM that they forgot about it, Only you and DavidTPPM talked about it after i edited the thread.

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

From the Metaphysical Aspects page:

The term Metaphysical Aspects refers to aspects of existence which are not part of the physical world, or spiritual aspects like mind or soul, but define or govern the world from the background. Examples include laws, causality, information, concepts, plot and also things our wiki does not list separately, such as some verses' versions of names, Dao, essence, ether etc.

As we can not list every possible kind of metaphysical aspect that may appear in fiction, not listed things like names, Dao, essence or ether are usually sorted into the existing abilities by judging what seems most similar to the ability even if it is not an exact equivalence. At the same time do different fictions at times call very similar ideas by different names, such that what is called concept in one fiction might end up being almost the same as what is called information in another.