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Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken Immunity to Mind Manipulation

Elizhaa

Elizhaa

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Credit to NeoSuperior:

NeoSuperior said:

Besides... Shion has that skill『Perfect Memory』that preserves her memories even after death.
In other words, she can exist as a soul alone.
So Soul Control Archive abilities are completely ineffective. Moreover, spiritual attack damage is also largely ignored.
~ WN Ch. 81 TL .pdf for "Birth of a New Demon Lord arc"​

My claim is that two things are mistaken here.

The first being the "In other words, she can exist as a soul alone." part which seems to be interpreted with a slightly different nuance by the GoogleTL (further below). The second one is about "Soul Control" actually being "Mental Control" or "Mind Control" instead, because in the lore of Slimeverse Ú¡é is used for the soul and þ▓¥þÑ× is used for spirit/mind.

Here is the proof I have gathered:



ÒüØÒéîÒü½…ÒÇéÒéÀÒé¬Òâ│Òü½þÂÖµë┐ÒüòÒéîÒüƒÞâ¢Õèø『Õ«îÕà¿Þ¿ÿµåÂ』Òü¿Òü»ÒÇüµ¡╗ÒéôÒüºÒééÞ¿ÿµåÂÒüïÒéïþ¿ïÒü«þë╣µ«èÞâ¢ÕèøÒÇé
ÒüñÒü¥ÒéèÒÇüÚ¡éÒüºÒü«µÇØÞÇâÒéÆÕÅ»Þâ¢Òü½ÒüÖÒéïÒÇé
ÒüØÒü«µäÅÕæ│ÒüÖÒéïµëÇÒü»ÒÇüþ▓¥þÑ×µö»Úàìþ│╗Òü«Þâ¢ÕèøÒü«õ©ÇÕêçÒéÆþäíÕè╣ÕîûÒüÖÒéïÒü«ÒüáÒÇéµø┤Òü½ÒÇüþ▓¥þÑ×Òü©Òü«ÒâÇÒâíÒâ╝Òé©Òü«ÕñºÕìèÒééþäíÕè╣ÕîûÒüÖÒéïþ¿ïÒüºÒüéÒéïÒÇé
~ WN ch. 81 RAW​



in addition…. Sion's inherited ability "Full memory" is a special ability that can be remembered even if dead.
In other words, it enables thinking in the soul.
What that means is to invalidate all of the abilities of the mental control system. Furthermore, most of the damage to the mind is also nullified.
~ same quote as above from WN ch. 81 via GoogleTL (JPN -> ENG)​

Funny thing here is that the GoogleTL version gets some things more right than the "real" translation did (though this so-called "real" translation might have been Machine TL or MTL-assisted as well).

Further here is more evidence from ch. 62:



That's a lie.
I mean, it's not a case where she is averting her eyes―they are just spinning out of control.
I listen to her story.
One day, a young Leon showed up here.
Ramiris'『Though Manipulation』had no effect.
In fact, she was controlled in stead.
For Ramiris, who was only proficient inÒÇêIllusion MagicÒÇëof theÒÇêSpirit MagicÒÇëarchive, there was nothing else she could do.
~ WN Ch. 62 TL .pdf for "Life in the Royal Capital arc"​



Òü®ÒüåÞªïÒüªÒééÒÇüÕÿÿÒüáÒü¬ÒÇé
þø«ÒüîÒÇüµ││ÒüäÒüºÒüäÒéïÒüúÒüªÒâ¼ÒâÖÒâ½ÒüÿÒéâÒü¬ÒüäÒÇéÒé░Òâ½Òé░Òâ½ÒüùÒüªÒüƒÒÇé
Þ®▒ÒéÆÞü×ÒüÅÒÇé
ÒüïÒüñÒüªÒÇüÕ░æÕ╣┤ÒüáÒüúÒüƒÒâ¼Òé¬Òâ│ÒüîÒüôÒüôÒü©Òü¿ÒéäÒüúÒüªµØÑÒüƒÒéëÒüùÒüäÒÇé
Òâ®ÒâƒÒâ¬Òé╣Òü«『þ▓¥þÑ×µö»Úàì』Òü»ÚÇÜþö¿ÒüùÒü¬ÒüïÒüúÒüƒÒüØÒüåÒüáÒÇé
ÒéÇÒüùÒéìÒÇüÚÇåÒü½µôìÒéëÒéîÒüØÒüåÒü½Òü¬ÒüúÒüªþäªÒüúÒüƒÒü¿ÒüïÒÇé
Òâ®ÒâƒÒâ¬Òé╣Òü»ÒÇüÒÇêþ▓¥þÑ×þ│╗Ú¡öµ│òÒÇëÒü«ÒÇêÕ╣╗Õ¢▒Ú¡öµ│òÒÇëÒéÆÕ¥ùµäÅÒü¿ÒüùÒüªÒüäÒéïÒüØÒüåÒüºÒÇüÒüØÒéîÒéëÒüîõ©ÇÕêçÚÇÜÒüÿÒü¬ÒüïÒüúÒüƒÒéëÒüùÒüäÒÇé
~ WN ch. 62 RAW​

At this point I want to reiterate some of the established lore that has been established from this and other parts of the WN/LN:

Ú¡é (tamashii) = soul
þ▓¥þÑ× (seishi) = spirit/mind
þ▓¥þÑ×µö»Úàì (seishin shihai) = mental control

Note that normally þ▓¥þÑ× (seishi) can technically also mean soul, but in the context of Slimeverse it just isn't used that way. Not to mention translating þ▓¥þÑ×µö»Úàì in WN ch. 81 as "Soul Control" makes no sense since the ability of existing as a soul or being able to think as a soul (no matter which interpretation/TL you go with) doesn't protect it from being controlled, just like "being able to think with your mind" by itself doesn't protect anyone from being mind controlled. It's a simple logical deduction. Though I guess having an actual translator look it over again wouldn't hurt.
Click to expand...
I think it's great and would scale to Spiritual Lifeforms and those with Perfect Memory skills in the verse since Perfect Memory is a gift/blessing from Rimuru given during the Harvest Festival and Rimuru mentioned it is a skill of spiritual life form.

Translation errors are a things and yes, sometimes, we choose the correct translations of the English text rather than the offical texts if they match the correct translations. An example is in the case of Bleach, all souls are both invisble and intangibles in the Viz Official translation, while in the offical Japanese and fan translation, only weaker souls are intangible due to low-spritual density as a difference.

Chapter 70
Shion's soul, thanks to the blessing, has retained all her memories.
Rimuru's wish has taken form, and this blessing was bestowed.
In addition to retaining all her memories, there's an extra skill 『Complete Memory』.
It is an ability that will allow the soul to return safely from the dead for an unlimited amount of times.

...

Though their aura has slightly changed, their personalities seem to be the same.
No lapses in memory, and their souls are properly attached to thier bodies.
However, each one has acquired the extra skill『Perfect Memory』

ÒÇîThis way, no matter how many times we die, we'll resurrect!ÒÇì

They said as a joke… or not?
Extra skillÒÇîPerfect MemoryÒÇìis a skill related to soul memory.
What is normally impossible, but they have now acquired a skill reserved for spiritual lifeforms only.

The changes will be like the LN Versions, for example:

Mind Manipulation (Rimuru's memories are stored in his astral body, and as long as he retains his conscious soul and memory, he can be revived even when his body is completely damaged. In other words, he can think with his soul and is thus immune to mind control effects)
 
I am not sure the effects of Perfect Memory scale to all Spiritual Lifeforms, since that skill directly affects the soul, but IIRC Spiritual Lifeforms, even though they don't have a Material Body (or at least don't need it and can just make it disappear), they should still require a Spiritual Body, though that should be obvious from the terms used, since they are called Spiritual Lifeforms and not Astral Lifeforms or Soul Lifeforms.

I think the mind immunity should only apply to Shion and Rimuru. Clayman also seems to have a lesser version of it, considering he was able to survive with only his Astral Body, but there is no proof that this process that he uses perhaps causes some memory loss or some sort of lasting mental damage.
 
I thought for spirit body: their true bodies are mass of souls energy like Veldora,Demons, and Angels in CP's blog.


Maybe, the justification should be change since theLN version differ from the WN: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Celestial_Pegasus/General_Concepts_in_Tensei_Shitara_Slime_Datta_Ke

Characters like Venom can still keep their Memories after Destruction in the demon world in Venom's Intermission Story; this case indicates memories can be kept.

If wrong, you still could be right, @NeoSuperior.
 
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
I do not believe this goes to every lifeform, but I'll read this in detail later.
Click to expand...
Not evey lifeforms but spiritual lifeforms were a main point.
 
Where is it ever said that all spiritual lifeforms can think with only their souls? Perfect memory is the only skill which does this.

Spiritual lifeforms existing as energy doesn't mean they have no mind to mind hax.
 
Them, I guess it only scale to Shion and Rimuru which I am fine with.
 
I agree that it should only scale to Shion and Rimuru (since the Foodchain revision already passed and Perfect Memory was one of the Harvest Festival gifts).

And the issue with Venom is that he already had 3 Unique Skills at the time, whose effects weren't explained in their entirety (each Unique Skill usually got several effects and/or sub-skills), it'd be a bit too much to scale that to all Spiritual Lifeforms.
 
Well, Yuuki would have it too since he has abilities except Turn Null.
 
Elizhaa said:
Well, Yuuki would have it too since he has abilities except Turn Null.
Click to expand...
Not just "except Turn Null", but I think he also didn't get any of the Dragon-in-the-stomach Ultimate Skills like Storm King Veldora and Scorch King Valgrynd, as well as Wisdom King Raphael and any aspects of the Cthulu series Ultimate Skills that have been newly derived. Lastly any Ultimate Skills still in possession of his enemies, e.g. Milim's Wrath King Satanel and Guy's Pride King Lucifer. Not sure about Unique Skills with still living owners.

But that aside, in the case of Perfect Memory... I think Yuuki would probably have it. So I agree.
 
I don't think Yuuki is this limited since the text explicitely said all abilties exepect Turn Null.

Chapter 247:
The Manas called Velda had the knowledge about all of the Ultimate Skills, but he didn't have the ability to recreate them.

The reason was plain and simple, insufficient capacity.

Yuuki had analyzed every skill over a month's time and made a selectio.

He reduced Ultimate Skill『Greedy Lord Mammon』into energy (Existence Value) and tried to recreate the necessary skills.

It became possible for him to perfectly recreate『Creation Lord Ahura Mazda』.

However, there was also an ability that he couldn't recreate no matter how hard he tried.

The Ultimate and Supreme Ability――called『Turn Null』which produced the primordial energy needed to create a world. But in the end, it was impossible for him to recreate it.
 
And yet Yuuki failed to get Raphael which Yuuki really wanted even after it was "abandoned" by Ciel due to being unneccessary. And I don't think Velda can access Ciel-made skill considering Riuru with Ciel is smarter than both Velda and Veldanava himself, as evidenced by the 3rd passage you bolded.

Anyway, that doesn't really pertain with the content of this CRT, so as I already said I agree with adding the (conditional) Immunity to Mind Manipulation for Shion, Rimuru and Yuuki all with the condition that the attacker's soulhax/Soul Manipulation can't break through the souldefenses/Resistance to Soul Manipulation.
 
NeoSuperior said:
And yet Yuuki failed to get Raphael which Yuuki really wants even after it was "abandoned" by Ciel due to being unneccessary. And I don't think Velda can access Ciel-made skill considering Riuru with Ciel is smarter than both Velda and Veldanava himself, as evidenced by the 3rd passage you bolded.
Click to expand...
I think the new skills made by Rimuru/Ciel may not count but I believe Skills like Millim's would be available to Yuuki.
 
Is there any proof that Yuuki could actually by-pass the "only one user of any Ultimate Skill at a time" rule? I don't think so.

Anyway, that's not the topic of this thread.

The addition for Rimuru and Shion was already OKed. Just need CP's permission to add it to Yuuki too.
 
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