Phoenix Avatars Revisions

• PF humanoid form
• PF threatens Odi

• Jean is the only house Phoenix lives
• Jean's power as Phoenix is unmatched
• Jean is hinted that she could create her own universe.

• According to marvel guidebooks and sites Jean as Phoenix can manipulate atomic structures oin Universal scale.
• Total control of matter at molecular level
• Moving through space
• Fights Galactus
• As Black Queen did this to mastermind
• Repairs the M' Kraan Crystal
• Drifting in and out of consciousness, Jean claims that all creation is a part of her. (Classic X-Men #9)
• Jean watches the process of fire on a sub-molecular level, aka 'sub-molecular perception'. (Classic X-Men #13)
• Phoenix doesn't need to eat or drink to sustain herself. She just does so for the sensations. (Classic X-Men #26)
• Phoenix can sense a connection between her, Iron Man, and Doom's time machine. She explains that Phoenix is an elemental part of the universe. A being of space and time.... (Iron Age #3)
• Phoenix knows Iron Man isn't from this time and with a gesture takes control of the entire machine and destroys it. (Iron Man #3)
• Phoenix notices Doctor Doom despite the cloaking bubble being active to conceal Doom's presence and enters her astral form to meet with him. (X-Men/ Dr. Doom 1998)

• Way back Mr. Fantastic said that Dark Phoenix was so strong that could rival the power of Galactus
• [Lilandra says that Galactus threat pales to comparison to DP]
• Uuatu said that she only had to think, and that thought will become instant reality.
• Doom remarks that Dark Phoenix is more powerful than their last encounter, which was already explained to be because she had installed psychic circuit-breakers as green phoenix. (X-Men/ Dr. Doom 1998)
• The Dark Phoenix battle against Xavier. Doom and the seer run away in fear of Dark Phoenix taking notice of them like Phoenix did. (X-Men/ Dr. Doom 1998)
• Tony Stark is relieved Jean is back and not as Potential Force of Universal Destruction, meaning DF

• White Phoenix Jean is the embodiment of eternity.
• According to the Phoenix guidebook after Jean's physical death is merged fully with Force and is connected to prime universal force of life. The full extent of her abilities after merging with Force is unknow
• Helds the 616 Universe in the palm of her hands
• Erases the Here comes tommorow future
• Phoenix compares DF as being a God and White Phoenix of the Crown an ascended form.
• Death explains to White Phoenix Jean that PF is unique to her

• Can oneshot Thor (1/5 PF)
• Can withstand Scarlet Witch's Full power Chaos Magic attack with 50% PF

• Dark Phoenix Cyclops says that everyone is so small compared to him... And that he is endless. He grew the size of Solar System (though we can a galaxy too in the image) and he started to ascend to the White Hot Room. (low 2c feat)
• Fought like seen in the above scan both Hope who was replicating Scarlet Witch's powers and the Witch but only when Jean convinced him to let Phoenix go then he was defeated.

• Can hurt God Doom

• Hope becomes White Phoenix and is amased by the power
• Hope lifts House Of M Scarlet Witch's No More Mutants Spell

• Even at her fight with Galactus, Rachel has a portion of the power so she can safely wield it (up right paragraph) and avoid DP.
• Gathers the life essence of the X-Men and the Starjammers to unleash a Neutron Blackhole in the M'Krann Crystal

• Blows up the Skull of a Shiar Death Commander strong enough to beat Gladiator
• Trades Blows with Gladiator
• Disables and destroys a Shiar fleet

• Stomped Thor
• When she had 50% PF claimed that could end the fighting in a blink of an eye if she wanted

• Depowers Thanos.
• According to Thanos he can not use the Force properly. I think that makes him one of the weakest avatars.
• God Quary Thanos can stand up to him

• Phoenix Five Magik was feared by Dormammu

• Thrashed Red Hulk, the Avengers, Thor and it took so much power from Scarlet Witch to stop him that she faded.

PrinceOfTheMorning said:

This thread is pretty fantastically sourced, good job. I don't have time to read all of it right now, but I'll come back tonight.

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Antvasima said:

Anyway, Dormammu being bested by regular Illyana is a Brian Bendis story. He doesn't care in the slightest about if his stories make any sense from a power-scaling perspective. In addition, the Phoenix Five were supposed to be powerless in comparison to Cyttorak.

Rachel was also empowered by the Pre-Retcon Beyonder in one of the scans. It cannot be used.

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• We talk about Phoenix Five Magik. That's the one he feared.
• Ant a Hell Lord is Master at his Domain (comfirmed by Magik herself and Cyttorak). This means that Magik can overpower others like Dormammu in Limbo because its her domain were she reigns supreme. The same goes for Cyttorak. He is Master at his Domain. That's why he overpowered Colossus in his Domain. To me even by their showings against Scarlet Witch the PF could be low 2C/ at least that at max. Its also consistent with Cyttorak's rating.
• In that Scan it was said that Rachel was going to face Beyonder with Power of M'Kraan Crystal which is High 1B.
• Tony doesn't need any proof... He knows about Phoenix and Jean back from Avengers vs X-Me and other storylines. And he has encountered other strange being in the past.

PrinceOfTheMorning said:

I believe Blue Rachel is currently rated as unknown, but I guess she should be changed to 4-B via Gladiator scaling?

Regarding Dark Phoenix though, in the last thread I was originally going for 3-A possibly 2-C but the evidence wasn't enough, and I don't know if there's enough to change that in this thread. Although DF Cyclops nearly ascending to the WHR combined with the Tony statement might be enough? What do you think Ant?

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• Agreed for Blue Rachel.
• There are plenty of scans now
  • 50% PF Cyclops can go against Scarlet Witch without problems.
  • Dark Phoenix Cyclops ascends to the White Hot Room.
  • Can Battle Scarlet Witch (At least Low 2C Character) + Hope who replicates her powers and has connection to the Force itself.
  • Jean doesn't deny to Logan that she can not create her own Universe with the Force.
  • According to Phoenix Guidebook and Marvel sites Jean as Phoenix can manipulate atomic structures oin Universal scale. That's at least 3A.

Antvasima said:

Placing a lighthouse on a massive number of parallel Earths across the multiverse is also not really quantifiable.

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Antvasima said:

Brian Bendis had Cyclops damage Dormammu in the same story. It simply did not make any sense.

Dormammu is more powerful in his home realm, Mephisto in his, and Cyttorak in his, but that does not mean that they have never been properly challenged there.

The Beyonder stated that destroying the universe would not remotely destroy him in conjunction. In either case, it was not Rachel's own power.

Tony does not know the exact limits of the power of a Phoenix avatar. It would look very unreliable to our visitors if we used his statement as a basis for a 3-A or Low 2-C rating.

Did the Scarlet Witch really have House of M level power during the event? She has been depowered tremendously since then.

If the handbooks stated that she has universal power or Jean stated it, did they refer to WPotC or regular Phoenix?

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• It was in Limbo though... Magik's realm... And it can be considered PIS...
• Tony of course doesn't know the limits for sure buti ts one statement that it could be used with other things.
• Scarlet Witch in the whole event was acting to have House of M power levels. They used to talk about her Chaos Magic as a Cosmic power a lot.
• Handbooks, Marvel Sites have Jean as regular Phoenix to have Universal Matter Manipulation. Also, in comics is hinted Jean could create her own Universe...