DBS revisions (please read entire OP)

Before I start, I know that this may have been discussed a number of times in the past but I wasn't around most of the time. This isn't a 2-C upgrade, so please everyone be civilized and handle this appropriately. Thank you.

In DBS you hear a lot of characters talk about or mention the destruction of a universe. These statements are as literal as you get. Statements such as:

Elder Kaioshin: "Beerus-sama's actions are no different from the workings of nature. We can do nothing but wait until the storm passes. He might not settle for a planet or two this time...The entire universe might disappear!"

Gowasu: Zamasu... might be trying to become the universe.

Kefla: I feel like I could blow away an entire universe in one shot...

Whis: Omni-King can destroy anything he wants, in an instant. Such as, evil people, obviously. Or a planet, a galaxy, or an entire universe.

We know that these statements are all directly the same type of statement and mean the same thing. For example: Kefla is low 2-C and after powering up she feels like she's strong enough to destroy the universe. Zamasu was stated to merge with the universe where nobody remotely says or even implies space time. Instead we learn that Zamasu was becoming time and space itself. This shows that Gowasu means time and space when he's talking about the universe and it would logically be the same for everyone else.

Zeno is stated to destroy an "entire" universe. We know that would mean the destruction of all the time and space because he's capable of doing so and Whis said "entire". It's the same thing Elder Kai said about Beerus "the entire universe might disappear!"

IIRC Elder Kai thought that Beerus was going full power against ssg Goku. That same Beerus who was stated to destroy the "entire" universe. Not only that but it was stated that Beerus and Goku were gonna annihilate the universe in there clash, not just destroy. They never use the word annihilation when referring to casual Zeno so this likely means that clash was stronger than we think. It's also just a supporting feat. Goku punched out a blast potent enough to destroy the universe. Just because a feat looks like it's 3-A doesn't mean it is. For example, the Nipponverse had characters that destroyed the universe with a Big Bang like attack but they were low 2-C (I know they're 2-A now, I'm just giving an example).

Here's why 3-A wouldn't make sense narratively though.

Beerus after waking up seeks the Super Saiyan God. Beerus seeks this being because he's looking for a formidable opponent. Beerus then completely dominates the Z Fighters one by one starting from Goku all the way to Vegeta. They are nothing but mere ants compared to him. Not even a fusion or an amped Goku was enough because Beerus is literally infinitely stronger than anyone there. However Goku is able to unlock the secret to God Ki and fight Beerus as a Super Saiyan God. Only the strongest Deities can wield God Ki and it's enough for Lord Beerus fighting at his casual level because it's in his realm of power.

Jumping from 4-B to 3-A literally makes to difference to a character that's tier 2. Why would God Ki of all things make Goku strong but still Infinitely weaker than Beerus? That's really dumb because it would make absolute 0 differences in power. Whenever Whis compared Beerus to Goku and Vegeta, he always gave them a benchmark: like the castle and tree analogy, which is a finite comparison.

It makes much more sense that Beerus was holding back at an arbitrary percentage than literal infinity. I mean look at the battle of gods fight, he's actually putting in some type of effort while suppressed. Even in the base Goku vs Monaka Beerus fight, Beerus is really enjoying himself because he's fighting someone without one shoting them. Even when Goku and Vegeta got stronger Beerus says:

Beerus: You guys got stronger, so how about it? Wanna fight me?

So you can basically say Goku is 3D while Beerus is 4D, Goku can't reach that power on his own and isn't enough to phase Beerus, so he gets God Ki. This makes him 4D so he's in Beerus' realm of power but not on his level. It's as basic as that.

Hell there's even evidence in the first Goku vs Jiren fight. Before Jiren fought Goku, he powered up in his suppressed state, this suppressed state is superior to Mugen Zamasu obviously. Jiren is ready to fight Goku using low 2-C energy. Goku make suppressed Jiren flinch several times. Ssj2 Goku slightly tilted his head with a kick. Jiren actually had to block blows from ssg Goku. SSB Goku forced Jiren to fight and defend himself by blocking. Jiren was even concerned that Goku's charged Kamehameha would harm him so he dodges it. Jiren output more power against the spirit bomb in their clash. First Jiren uses one hand. Then Goku powers up, this makes Jiren use both of his hands ( BEHOLD THE POWER OF TWO HANDS!) Goku powers up again, Jiren prepares himself then puts his energy in a glare. If suppressed Jiren was infinitely stronger than Goku then Jiren would only have to breathe to finish off Goku and the transformations wouldn't make a difference. Jiren may have stronger than Goku, but he was still actually showing some kind of effort. Goku did noticeably well while fighting Jiren, even surviving all his attacks.

Some of you might be thinking why is this important? Well it's because Goku before the tournament of power never had any major increases in strength. It could be used for backwards scaling to reach low 2-C. Also why would Jiren be infinitely weaker after his one fight with Goku even though while suppressed he's stronger than Zamasu. Jiren was only slightly weakened and Golden Frieza along with 17 were able to keep up and damage Jiren. For god sake even ssj2 Goku can move Jiren's head.


Some other things I want to point out are:

• Gowasu says Goku's power is in the same realm as Beerus'
• The Revival of F website said that Frieza had gotten infinitely stronger than he was on Namek.
• Whis says that Goku was on the lowest level of Godly power, which is way stronger than any Kai, so Whis implying a God of Destruction makes a lot more sense.
• Beerus was actually concerned about Goku catching up when he first saw SSGSSKKx10
• Goku and Hit scare the hell out of Champa after they here that they were just being used in the tournament.
• Base Toppo being a GoD candidate.
• Characters like Hit, 17, and Vegeta doing so well against Jiren.
• Goku catching up and adapting so fast to Jiren.
• Android 17 able to damage Jiren.
• God of Destruction Jerez states blue Goku rivals the power of the Gods.
• Base Frieza being able to kick down Jiren.
• Frieza being able to overpower Sidra's hakai with high difficulty.
• Sidra thinking killing off Frieza would be hard.
• Base Goku doing so well against Broly.

And possibly even more, but you get the point.


- CONCLUSION Low 2-C is overall consistent since God Ki puts you in the realm of the power of the Gods. The word "universe" in DBS only has one meaning. There are times when they say universe and it implies space and time. No other statements imply the matter in the universe. Low-balling every other statement to 3-A is an arbitrary assumption when we know universe in DBS has one meaning and on more than one instance they meant space and time. Even the modern term of universe in Japan is time and space, 3-A and low 2-C aren't differentiated in DBS so it's sensible and again, consistent.

My proposal is upgrading all 3-A characters to low 2-C. Don't worry I'll do the downgrades after this thread is concluded.

Bump

Nani?

Personaly i agree, it sound more in line with what the anime wanted to show and work better with how Japan define 'universe'.

I mean, it wouldn't make sense how they insist on SSJG being a new realm of power when it's a latter power boost not even really lampshaded much that make Goku infinitely more powerful

Bruh.

That is true

Huh... this seems interesting, but is the difference between 3-A and Low 2-C literally infinite? I'm not used to these terms at all, and this CRT relies on that.

@Calaca the difference between 3-A and low 2-C is infinite.

Bump.

Well, according to our system, that makes a difference between space and space-time, the difference is treated as infinite, but Dragon Ball does not subscribe to this system, and many other fictions don't either, so we should probably revise it eventually.

Anyway, you should probably ask the staff members listed in the Dragon Ball verse page, along with the people in the Knowledgeable Members List, to comment here.

Ok

I am fine the OP. It always seems weird to me that Beerus holded back to infinity. Also, this statement from the Episode 12 at 7:09 mi can be supporting evidence as well for ealry Low 2-C.

Oh yeah I did forget about the void statement, but everyone keeps saying they meant vacuum. I don't know where they get this from.

I think this is fine this would apply to vegeta and frieza who fought broly as well

The problem is that the characters lower ranked than 3-A would also be affected by this type of "he shouldn't hold back this much" scaling.

As such, until we revise our system, it seems safer to keep the current character statistics, even though they are not equivalent to how the Dragon Ball setting works.

I agree too.

Antvasima said:

The problem is that the characters lower ranked than 3-A would also be affected by this type of "he shouldn't hold back this much" scaling.

As such, until we revise our system, it seems safer to keep the current character statistics, even though they are not equivalent to how the Dragon Ball setting works.

Click to expand...

I disagree with the bold since here DB is very popular and its pages must go with how the anime works.

Well, again, then we would end up with everybody in the tournament of power scaling to Low 2-C as well by using the same logic.

We have discussed this subject extremely extensively for many hundred posts previously, and reached the current statistics consensus. We cannot change it without a massive amount of favourable staff input, and it doesn't remotely seem worth the effort. Sorry.

Zamasu Chan said:

Oh yeah I did forget about the void statement, but everyone keeps saying they meant vacuum. I don't know where they get this from.

Click to expand...

Universe feat can be ambiguous so they can be low-balled during evaluation especially f there no other Low 2-C at the time which was the case in the past. I am not sure why space-time is not included in the void when Goku and Beerus shockwaves were to affect/bend spacetime

@Ant you shouldnt bother discussing dbs in this thread, you are too overworked for this. You'd better off just asking one of the dbs admins.

Okay. I will unsubscribe then. You can ask the staff members listed in the Dragon Ball verse page and the Knowledgeable Members List to comment here instead.

I agree to this. Always thought they were Low 2-C


EDIT: wait arent we still revising the 3-A and above?

BlackeJan said:

EDIT: wait arent we still revising the 3-A and above?

Click to expand...

It is paused because we were waiting for Sera and if she regretably leaved the discussion for good, then we wil concluded it.

It's not only about holding back infinity. It's also the way they use the word universe. Every time they were specific they would refer to time and space, never matter because that's an assumption.

Before I take my stance, I would like to point out quite a few things. First off, it is true that Dragon Ball doesn't distinguish 3-A and Low 2-C as an infinite gap; but at the same time, no verse actually does. AssaltWaffle even mentioned on another thread that it's actually a myth that Low 2-C is infinite; an infinite amount of force/raw power can't destroy space-time, but he said it's possible for those with finite energy to do it. It's more uncalcable dimensional distortions that destroy space-time rather than Joules of energy.

That being said, SSG Goku and a held back Beerus clashing it merely says destroy every celestial object in the universe rather than all time in space; though, it would also include the planets and stars contained in the pocket realities. Infinite Zamasu is the only one that actually merged with space-time and is "4-D" himself; others are 3-D beings with "4-D" degrees of power. I put 4-D in quotes, because while we aren't getting rid of the tiering system in the traditional sense, it's just it's based on very specific definition of dimensions which never had a consistent definition Real world or fiction. Like being 11-Dimensional in terms of Spatial dimensions alone won't make someone High 1-C; instead, High 1-C is better worded as 8 degrees of Cosmic megastructure dimensions.

And I honestly don't think we'll be changing the ratings for DBS tbh, but I'll leave it open for more input.

It's not really a myth given that it's litteraly how we define it though, if it isn't accurate then we'd need to change the description of the tier.

That's not the main point though. It's what they refer to when they mean universe. They're almost never specific when they say universe. We assume it's the matter because before we didn't know. However whenever there were more than one occasion when they meant space time when they were talking about the universe. DB only has one meaning to universal destruction. Even Buuhan was destroying the universe via space time. And like I mentioned before, universe in Japan means time and space.

Buuhan destroying Space-Time was non-canon/Anime Filler. And I already mentioned that SSG Vs Beerus literally does describe destruction as just being all matter in the universe. The Afterlife and the Kaioshin Realms due contain planets and stars yes, and those are included; but still no mention of space-time. There are other statements about Universe yes, and Beerus appearing worried that Goku with SSBKKx10 might catch up to Beerus is one sign, but Whis mentioned that even Beerus is still in training as he's trying to learn Ultra Instinct among other things; so it's possible he too is also growing stronger in further seasons.

When do they refer to matter when talking about Beerus vs SSJG ? also it would have also destroyed the Kaioshin Realm and the after life, who have no physical connection to the mortal universe so it can't just be threatening the matter inside the universe.

You need to post the japanese quotes with the context.

I clearly remember Zeno's statement about being able to bust everything utilizing "sekai" (world, multiverse in that context) instead of "Uchuu" (space, individual universes in context) the latter being what's most commonly used for universe busting statements.

Yeah, Zeno does erase "All Existence" and is 2-C for sure. But they use "World" as the terminology for the Multiverse.

"This isn't a 2-C upgrade, so please everyone be civilized and handle this appropriately. Thank you."

>My proposal is upgrading all 3-A characters to low 2-C. Don't worry I'll do the downgrades after this thread is concluded.

I'm confused OP. I understand the difference between 2-C and Low 2-C but I'm still confused.

I'm proposing a low 2-C upgrade, not a 2-C one.

Buuhan stuff is listed in the discussion rules:

• Do not create discussion threads trying to upgrade the characters based on Super Buu crashing the universe by breaking the walls between dimensions with his Vice Shout as it was discussed and debunked countless times.

Dark649 said:

Buuhan stuff is listed in the discussion rules:

• Do not create discussion threads trying to upgrade the characters based on Buuha crashing the universe by breaking the walls between dimensions with his Vice Shout as it was discussed and debunked countless times.

Click to expand...

the thread is not based on Buuhan, he was just brough up in the comments.

I was just giving an example of how universe busting in Dragon Ball is interpreted. And where does Beerus mention all the celestial objects DMM?

Dragomer said:

When do they refer to matter when talking about Beerus vs SSJG ? also it would have also destroyed the Kaioshin Realm and the after life, who have no physical connection to the mortal universe so it can't just be threatening the matter inside the universe.

Click to expand...

Exactly, both the Kaioshin Realm and Afterlife are physically separated to the Mortal Universe, and they were going to be destroyed by the clash as well (as Old Kai stated that all gods would had died).

No standard 3th Dimensional power should be able to threat the existence of separated dimensions/realms, not unless God Ki was capable to travel thought dimensions and destroy what was inside of them leaving the space-time intact, but this was never mention.

This seems like a good argument to me imo. There's also Goku being confidant that if they were at full strength, they could've beaten Infinite Zamasu before he became 2-C without Zeno.

"The universe becoming an empty void" definitely doesn't sound like space-time destruction, just the universe becoming a vacuum with its space-time still intact.

Infinite Zamasu has indication of becoming space-time since he leaks into the present and Zeno nuked the timeline to get rid of him. Regardless, the only reason Low 2-C Dragon Ball is a thing is because of Infinite Zamasu upscaling, otherwise everyone would be 3-A.

@Hst master Goku's word can't be taken at face value. His ki blasts do zero damage to Infinite Zamasu, he was simply overconfident in his own abilities.

"@Hst master Goku's word can't be taken at face value. His ki blasts do zero damage to Infinite Zamasu, he was simply overconfident in his own abilities."

Why shouldn't Goku's word be taken at face value? When has he displayed overconfidence in his ability ever? Last time he was confident, in the ToP, it was justified since he curbstomped Kefla and definitely wasnt overconfident against Jiren.

You cant just say he's overconfident without evidence to back it up.