Star Trek Enterprise Phaser Revision

ByAsura · Apr 14, 2019

1. "At least 4 petatons for a standard phaser burst. Channeling the full power of the warp core through the phasers, they are able to split a moon approximately the size of Luna in half with repeat fire." This is completely false, it was not a moon, but an asteroid, and the Enterprise did not, in fact, split it in half, they failed to widen an existing fissure on its surface. McCoy was also confident that it would crush the ship.

SPOCK: If we are to divert the asteroid which is on a collision course with this planet, we must warp out of orbit within thirty minutes. Every second we delay arriving at the deflection point compounds the problem, perhaps past solution.

SPOCK: Doctor, that asteroid is almost as large as your Earth's moon. Far enough away, the angle necessary to divert it enough to avoid destruction is minute, but as the asteroid approaches this planet, the angle becomes so great that even the power of a starship—

SPOCK: Recircuit power to engines. Maximum speed heading three seven mark zero one zero.
SULU: Aye, sir.
CHEKOV: That heading will put us directly in the asteroid's path, sir.
SPOCK: Correct, Mister Chekov. I intend to retreat in front of that asteroid until we can employ all power on phaser beams.
MCCOY: What for?
SPOCK: To destroy it. A narrow beam concentrated on a single spot will split that mass.
MCCOY: It might also cripple the ship, and we would be crushed by the asteroid.

CHEKOV: Tau eight point seven. Beta point zero four one.
SPOCK: That is our target. The asteroid's weakest point.
CHEKOV: Almost dead centre, sir.
SPOCK: Lock all phasers on that mark. Maximum intensity, narrow beam. I want to split that fissure wide open.
MCCOY: You sound like you're cutting a diamond.
SPOCK: Very astute, Doctor.

2. Even if this feat were true, it would still be far above baseline Multi-Continent level for the two halves to actually separate. Earth's moon has a GBE of 1.24e29 J. 1.24e29/8 (there were 4 dual phaser bursts) = 1.55e+28 J, or Multi-Continent level.

3. While Phasers are definitley far less powerful than Photon Torpedoes, they certainly are not 16.5 times less powerful, as they can damage ships capable of withstanding these same attacks. For example, proximity burst Phasers could heavily damage the Romulan Praetor's Flagship. It, in my opinion, makes far more sense for them to be Multi-Continent level.

TL;DR: The main feat for phasers is riddled with false information (they did not actually perform the feat), and, even if true, would be above Multi-Continent level, not Continent level+. Phasers can also damage vessels capable of withstanding Photon Torpedoes.

A lot of the other calculations on the page are also unsourced, generally unneeded and should be removed.

ByAsura · Apr 16, 2019

ByAsura · Apr 17, 2019

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ByAsura · Apr 22, 2019

ByAsura · Apr 25, 2019

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ByAsura · Apr 29, 2019

Idazmi · May 10, 2019

ByAsura said:
1. "At least 4 petatons for a standard phaser burst. Channeling the full power of the warp core through the phasers, they are able to split a moon approximately the size of Luna in half with repeat fire." This is completely false, it was not a moon, but an asteroid, and the Enterprise did not, in fact, split it in half, they failed to widen an existing fissure on its surface. McCoy was also confident that it would crush the ship.

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/58.htm <- Transcript of "The Paradise Syndrome".

SPOCK: Doctor, that asteroid is almost as large as your Earth's moon.

ByAsura said:
2. Even if this feat were true, it would still be far above baseline Multi-Continent level for the two halves to actually separate. Earth's moon has a GBE of 1.24e29 J. 1.24e29/8 (there were 4 dual phaser bursts) = 1.55e+28 J, or Multi-Continent level.

Which is why the feat is listed as Continent level+ instead of Multi-Continent level+ - they failed to split the moon-sized asteroid. This is also consistent with their demonstrated ability to destroy continents in other episodes:

^ Here you can see Tycho IV before the Enterprise detonates an antimatter bomb. Take note of the clouds and bodies of water.

^ This is the aftermath of the blast. Take note of the crater, and the complete lack of clouds and bodies of water.

There is no reason to assume that phasers powered by the ship's main antimatter-reactors and torpedoes with antimatter warheads would demonstrate yields too far off from this (aside from phasers having a limit before overheating). It's also mentioned in "The Cage" that the Enterprise can easily destroy "half a continent", and multiple times that the ship can eradicate all life on a planet.

The difference is 6A vs High 6A, not a whole different tier. Many modern military vessels carry differing munitions with far greater yield differences (CIWS vs Cruise Missiles vs Nuclear missiles). That, and the Romulan Flagship was cloaked and unshielded: I sincerely doubt that a shielded ship would have taken so much damage from a proximity phaser hit. This would also be why they only used proximity phasers twice in the entire series run.

ByAsura said:
A lot of the other calculations on the page are also unsourced, generally unneeded and should be removed.

Based on what? Thanks to the efforts of Star Trek's original creators and producers, information regarding the arrangement of Kirk's Enterprise - both before and after the refit - is well known. For example, here are two officially licensed and hand signed blueprints that - to this day - are recognized as canon:

https://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/star-trek-blueprints.php - Pre-Refit Enterprise.

https://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/star-trek-the-motion-picture.php - post-Refit Enterprise.

These were both officially recognized by Paramount and hand signed by Gene Roddenberry, as well as other members of Star Trek's creative staff, such as Andrew Probert and David Kimble.

ByAsura · May 11, 2019

Yes, and I literally added that exact quote with all the context in the OP right under that post. It seems like you're implying I did not. And the part where I pointed out it was an asteroid, not a moon, was to show how this line is filled with false information.

That completely ignores my point. Even if they did almost split the asteroid, it would still be far above baseline Multi-Continent level, not even close to Continent level+, something that has no source in the first place. Yes, and what is that feat listed as on the page? Multi-Continent level, not Continent level because they destroyed most of the surface and ripped away half of the planet's atmosphere. I don't doubt any of the Multi-Continent level feats, I actually support them and outright say "It, in my opinion, makes far more sense for [the phasers] to be Multi-Continent level."

^On this same point, the feat is still false. The page says they did split the asteroid, but they did not and it was via opening an existing fissure, like cutting a diamond.

Cloaked ships generally have enough power to their shields to survive assaults from comparable vessels, like the Defiant and the Scimitar, although the latter carrys a "perfect" cloak. Also, that's irrelevant, because phasers do have the ability to harm vessels of similar durability, proving that they shouldn't be 13.5 times weaker than photon torpedoes.

This is not what I said. I wasn't saying the feats should be removed for being non-canon, just that there's no sources.

This is my idea for the Enterprise page

Attack Potency: Multi-Continent level (By chanelling the full power of the ship's warp core through its phasers, the Enterprise nearly split an asteroid almost as large as our moon by concentrating fire onto a fissure, and had earlier diverted it 0.0013 degrees. A mere gram of antimatter from the ship's engines, compared to the 1.5 kg of a single Photon Torpedo, ripped away half of Tycho IV's atmosphere and left a visible continent-sized crater on the surface, with the associated shockwave that propagated into high orbit threatening the starship. In accordance with General Order 24, the Enterprise can destroy the inhabited portion of a planet's surface, and was even stated to be capable of laying waste to 892-IV's entire surface in the episode "Bread and Circuses". Kirk threatened to destroy an sub-light speed asteroid-ship with a diameter of 200 miles)

Idazmi · May 11, 2019

ByAsura said:
Yes, and I literally added that exact quote with all the context in the OP.

So what was your point? Size and mass of Earth's moon = exactly that.

ByAsura said:
That completely ignores my point. There's no calculation, and even if they did almost split the asteroid, it would still be far above baseline Multi-Continent level, not even close to Continent level+, which has no source in the first place. Yes, and what is that feat listed as on the page, Multi-Continent level, not Continent level because they destroyed most of the surface and ripped away half of the planet's atmosphere. I don't doubt any of the Multi-Continent level feats, I actually support them, I outright say "It, in my opinion, makes far more sense for [the phasers] to be Multi-Continent level" in accordance with the other feats.

Yes there are calculations, both here and from OBD (which the original calcs here were based on: it has since been corrected by referencing the Enterprise's canonical technical orders). The phaser yields are extrapolated from the energy necessary to destroy a continent through an atmosphere with a laser like weapon, the antimatter bomb and torpedo yields are extrapolated from the energy needed to blast away half of Earth's atmosphere with a single detonation. (Tycho IV, like Earth, is an M-Class planet, and that's exactly what happened to Tycho IV).

ByAsura said:
^On this same point, the feat is still false. The page says they did split the asteroid, but they did not and it was via opening an existing fissure, like cutting a diamond.

That's not an error in the calculations, it's an error in the page's presentation of events. In addition, the standard yields described on that page are not based on the moon feat: the moon feat is what the pre-refit ship could possibly do with it's phasers rewired through the engines, NOT a standard phaser blast, which is never claimed or shown to be above continent-level. Since Spock was the one making that claim about splitting the moon-sized asteroid, it's likely accurate to within less than a percent.

ByAsura said:
Cloaked ships generally have enough power to their shields to survive assaults from comparable vessels, like the Defiant and the Scimitar, although the latter carrys a "perfect" cloak. Also, that's irrelevant, because phasers do have the ability to harm vessels of similar durability, proving that they shouldn't be 13.5 times weaker than photon torpedoes.

A cloaked ship is not shielded. Only the Scimitar can remain shielded while cloaked. You are also forgetting that the Romulan ship in Balance of Terror only had impulse power: that's a fusion based system, inferior to Enterprise's own antimatter reactors. There's no reason to assume that it's a "comparable" vessel to Enterprise: the plot bears out that it's not. That, and the Enterprise can experience the blast from it's own torpedoes if they're fired from too close: https://youtu.be/OdXdUkhV0Fg?t=188 It was mentioned in the same episode that the antimatter bomb on Tycho IV, from close proximity could severely damage Enterprise due to the shochwaves from the atmosphere. Phasers never do anything like that.

ByAsura said:
This is not what I said. I wasn't saying the feats should be removed for being non-canon, just the sources that have no justification for their yield.

Other than the known energy necessary to achieve destructive effects on the scales seen in TOS. For the record, the yields go far, far higher than that (an example is the finale of The Immunity Syndrome), but I've never been one to use outliers over more consistent demonstrations. TOS consistently resides around continent level.

ByAsura · May 11, 2019

So you cut out the rest again. Ok. My point was that I did have the quote in the OP and it was an asteroid, not a moon to show how false this feat actually is.

If there is a calculation, you should add it on the page. Also, the phasers never destroy a continent on screen, sure, there's the part where José Tyler says a likely far weaker Enterprise 10 years before The Original Series could transmit enough internal power through its laser cannon to "blast half a continent", but the ship never actually performs this feat, and phasers aren't designed to spread over such areas (which invalidates the OBD calc). Plus, there's still no calculation for the moon feat.

That's not the point and you know it. My point was outright that the feat is portrayed as something that it is not on the page. I never claimed that you said that, the feat was with the entire Warp engine, after all.

You're right, I was mistaken. I also remember in the Changeling when the Enterprise experienced a massive flash of light and shock when they fired a Photon Torpedo from 90,000 kilometers away. Phasers are laser weapons, they aren't desgined to explode planets or create massive blasts (aside from a few moments of inconsistency).

There's no calculations for such things on the page. Give me the feat where the Planet-Killer can output 6 Exatons, or melting a planetary crust (which is not at all implied by any episode) takes 7 Exatons. Aside from the statement from The Cage, can you give me one?

Idazmi · May 11, 2019

ByAsura said:
So you cut out the rest again. Ok. My point was that I did have the quote in the OP and it was an asteroid, not a moon to show how false this feat actually is.

Nonsense. An asteroid with the size and mass of Earth's moon would be little different than Earth's moon: both are rock and dust.

ByAsura said:
If there is a calculation, you should add it on the page. Also, the phasers never destroy a continent on screen, sure, there's the part where José Tyler says a likely far weaker Enterprise 10 years before The Original Series could transmit enough internal power through its laser cannon to "blast half a continent", but the ship never actually performs this feat, and phasers aren't designed to spread over such areas (which invalidates the OBD calc). Plus, there's still no calculation for the moon feat.

Nonsense: you're making far too many assumptions. Phasers are designed to fire in wide beams, as well as direct, because they aren't simple "lasers". We do see this, both in the ship itself and in the handguns: in A Piece of the Action, we see the Enterprise phaser-stun everything on an entire city block, except one specific building.

ByAsura said:
That's not the point and you know it. My point was outright that the feat is portrayed as something that it is not on the page. I never claimed that you said that, the feat was with the entire Warp engine, after all.

Then we can change the way that's worded and add the power of the asteroid/moon feat as a separate thing from the regular phaser fire.

ByAsura said:
You're right, I was mistaken. I also remember in the Changeling when the Enterprise experienced a massive flash of light and shock when they fired a Photon Torpedo from 90,000 kilometers away. Phasers are laser weapons, they aren't desgined to explode planets or create massive blasts (aside from a few moments of inconsistency).

Actually, any sufficiently powerful laser or laser-like weapon would generate a blast and fragmentation on impact, and phasers are seen doing exactly that - just nowhere near on the scale of photon torpedoes.

ByAsura said:
There's no calculations for such things on the page. Give me the feat where the Planet-Killer can output 6 Exatons, or melting a planetary crust (which is not at all implied by any episode) takes 7 Exatons. Aside from the statement from The Cage, can you give me one?

Now I'm utterly convinced that you just have no idea what you're talking about. The planet killer only does one thing: it gradually fragments planets to rubble with it's antiproton beam, gradually consuming the rubble it generates in a matter/energy converter to generate more power. That's literally the only weapon it has.

The Enterprise ca - over time - melt the livable surface of an entire planet, and the energy necessary to do that to Earth's dry crust is 2.9 ├ù 10 to the 28th Joules: 7 Exatons. The energy needed to blow away Earth's atmosphere is 3.2 ├ù 10 to the 26th Joules: 77 Petatons. Tycho IV is an M-Class planet with a breathable atmosphere and 1g of gravity at the surface, so we have every reason to assume that it is similar to Earth in all the ways that are important to this calculation.

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/usefultables.php - This is a general table of energy outputs, and the comparative effects they would have. One if the things listed is "Star Trek photon torpedo", but their cals is taken from the TNG technical manual, which (unlike the blueprints I referred to you earlier) is nowhere near canonical.

ByAsura · May 12, 2019

That's not what I said. Also I clearly think they have similar GBEs, as that's what I used for my calc.

Phasers have never spread to continental distances, handheld phasers alone can spread across half a facility, so destroying a city block proves nothing. This attack capable of "blasting half a continent" in The Cage was only spread to the surface area of a door. The only assumption here is that they're wide enough to vaporize continents, because guess what? They've never done such a thing. Not even the Romulan-Cardassian fleet did this while they almost instantly destroyed 30% of a planet's crust, despite being eager to stop a potential war with a force technologically superior to the Federation.

I'm not talking about regular phaser power or anything like that. I'm just talking about making the feat more accurate. Also, where's the Continent level+ thing from? You've told me it's 4 Petatons, but given no justification. I've actually given a calc.

They do not create a massive matter-antimatter explosion capable of such things. Virtually every phaser attack in the franchise is done from orbit/ship to ship and vaporizes or just damages enemies, the only real exceptions I remember is when the Enterprise (NX-01) destroyed a mountain with 10x its normal output (albiet it still relied on the ship's internal power), the Defiant's cannons, the Romulan-Cardassian fleet, and the phaser bursts from some of the non-reboot Star Trek films.

That wasn't referring to Planet-Killer not being capable of slicing planets to rubble (it outright does this in the episode), just the Enterprise melting a planet's crust. We get no confirmation that it would melt it, the only actual confirmation that it can truly level the entire surface of a planet is in "Bread and Circuses", where Claudius says "from what I understand, your vessel could lay waste to the entire surface of the world." Since you have given the calculations, I will drop this point, except for the melting a planet's crust part.

Idazmi · May 12, 2019

ByAsura said:
That's not what I said. Also I clearly think they have similar GBEs, as that's what I used for my calc.

Then there was literally no need to bring it up in the context of calculations. Just change the text to "asteroid as large and as massive as Earth's moon".

Let me break this down, since you are clearly having trouble understanding any of the context:

First: I never implied that destroying a city block was impressive. I noted that they hit a city block wide area without damaging a specific building that was sitting within that block. Phasers are not only precise: they can be adjusted to hit exactly what the gunner wants to hit, and nothing else. Also, the phasers were on stu in that scene - that's absolute minimum. If a hand phaser on maximum can destroy an entire facility, it's ridiculous to assume that massively more powerful phasers that can stun an entire city block would be incapable of destroying a continent.

Second: The surface gun in The Cage is not capable of destroying a continent. That claim was made in reference to the Enterprise's own phasers, not surface guns. The facts in the later episodes bear him out. In addition, you yourself just proposed taking phasers up to Multi-Continent level, while they are currently sitting at Continent Level+. I'm opposing your proposed upgrade because the Enterprise can destroy multiple continents over time, not in one attack all at once.

ByAsura said:
I'm not talking about regular phaser power or anything like that. I'm just talking about making the feat more accurate. Also, where's the Continent level+ thing from? You've told me it's 4 Petatons, but given no justification. I've actually given a calc. They do not create a massive matter-antimatter explosion capable of such things. Virtually every phaser attack in the franchise is done from orbit/ship to ship and vaporizes or just damages enemies, the only real exceptions I remember is when the Enterprise (NX-01) destroyed a mountain with 10x its normal output (albiet it still relied on the ship's internal power), the Defiant's cannons, the Romulan-Cardassian fleet, and the phaser bursts from some of the non-reboot Star Trek films.

Yes they do create massive antimatter bombs capable of such things, more than once. I posted one example above. They used another one to destroy a creature that was 11,000 miles across:

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/48.htm <- Episode transcript of The Immunity Syndrome

Code:

SPOCK: Readings coming in now, Captain. Length, approximately eleven thousand miles. Width varying from two thousand to three thousand miles. Outer layer studded with space debris and waste. Interior consists of protoplasm, varying from a firmer gelatinous layer to a semi-fluid central mass. Condition, living. (...) KIRK: This thing has a negative energy charge. Everything seems to work in reverse. We'll use anti-matter. SCOTT: Aye, it couldn't swallow that. KIRK: Mister Chekov, prepare a probe. Scotty, we'll need a magnetic bottle for the charge. How soon? SCOTT: It's on its way, sir. KIRK: Mister Chekov, we'll use a timing detonator for the probe. Work out a setting. (...) SCOTT: Aye, sir. I can't guarantee it'll hold when the warhead explodes. The power levels are (looks at readout) The power levels are dead, sir. KIRK: You may have just written our epitaph, Mister Scott. (The warhead must have exploded, because everyone goes flying around the bridge again.) KIRK: Activate main viewing screen. (they see stars.) Mister Chekov, report. CHEKOV: The organism is destroyed, sir. The explosion must have ruptured the membrane and thrown us clear.

By the by, the N-X didn't use "ten times the normal output" of the phase cannon: that was the initial test - it had never been fired before. The yield was ten times higher than expected, but it was the normal output. They had to rig up anti-gravity shock-absorbers to even fire them at full strength without hurting their own ship.

ByAsura said:
That wasn't referring to Planet-Killer not being capable of slicing planets to rubble (it outright does this in the episode), just the Enterprise melting a planet's crust. We get no confirmation that it would melt it, the only actual confirmation that it can truly level the entire surface of a planet is in "Bread and Circuses", where Claudius says "from what I understand, your vessel could lay waste to the entire surface of the world." Since you have given the calculations, I will drop this point, except for the melting a planet's crust part.

It's a minimum estimate. In order to facilitate General Order 24, the Enterprise must destroy all civilization on an M-class planet. In Star Trek, a "civilization" can easily have planetary deflector shields and ridiculously strong construction materials:

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/71.htm <- Episode Transcript of Whom Gods Destroy

Code:

SCOTT: "Mister Sulu, what do your sensors show?" SULU: "We can't beam anybody down, sir. The force field on the planet is in full operation, and all forms of transport into the asylum dome are blocked off." SCOTT: "We could blast our way through the field, but only at the risk of destroying the Captain, Mister Spock and any other living thing on Elba Two." MCCOY: "How can we be powerful enough to wipe out a planet and still be so helpless?" (...) SCOTT: Doctor, I told you we couldn't do it without killing everyone in the asylum dome. MCCOY: I know it, Scotty. SCOTT: Well, there's one last thing we might try. Perhaps the ship's phasers can cut through a section of the force field at its weakest point. Where did you say that was located, Mister Sulu? SULU: On the far side of the planet, Mister Scott. MCCOY: Will it leave a margin of safety for the people below? SULU: Yes, sir.

Not only did he ask for a "margin of safety" when the attack was literally aimed at the other side of the planet from the people he was trying to save - who were under an armored dome - but the facility's forcefield actually held against maximum phasers for a few shots. The energy needed to destroy a Star Trek civilization must also include the possibilities of planetary shields, underground facilities like bunkers, metals like tritanium, duranium, and so on. The only way to ensure total destruction would be to melt the planetary crust entirely.

ByAsura · May 13, 2019

I wasn't adding context to the calculation, for the last time it was to show how generally innaccurate the feat is on the page. Just drop this point, please.

I know phasers are meant to be precise, that's why even orbital ones have a stun setting. No, it's NFL to assume that they can spread to envelop an entire continent, unless you're just talking about just destroying and not creating a beam wide enough to completely envelop one. When applying General Order 24, Starfleet generally target cities with their phasers, like in Mirror, Mirror, A Tase of Armageddo, or a Discovery episode that I can't remember for the life of me. There's nothing in the show to support such a claim.

SCOTT [OC]: All cities and installations on Eminiar Seven have been located, identified, and fed into our fire-control system. In one hour and forty five minutes
SCOTT: The entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed.
KIRK: Yes, I do. I've given you back the horrors of war. The Vendikans now assume that you've broken your agreement and that you're preparing to wage real war with real weapons. They'll want do the same. Only the next attack they launch will do a lot more than count up numbers in a computer. They'll destroy cities, devastate your planet. You of course will want to retaliate. If I were you, I'd start making bombs. Yes, Councilman, you have a real war on your hands. You can either wage it with real weapons, or you might consider an alternative. Put an end to it. Make peace.

Mirror SPOCK: Standard procedure, Captain? (Kirk nods) Mister Sulu, you will programme phaser barrage on Halkan cities.
Mirror SULU [OC]: Yes, Mister Spock.

I'm basing this off the ability to split a moon-sized asteroid, not destroying continents over time. Also, since you use Discovery, Lorca states "[the Sarcophagus] can and will destroy an entire planet in the blink of an eye." A hyperbole? Yes, but it still means the ship that had its ass kicked by the Discovery can destroy planetary surfaces quickly. Plus just destroying the Americas in a single attack is Multi-Continent level. Firstly, phasers likely didn't exist in Star Trek back when The Cage was released (see retroactive continuity), laser cannons and pistols did. Secondly, the quote was "that entry may have stood up against hand lasers, but we can transmit the ship's power against it. Enough to blast half a continent", and they used enough internal power to put stress on their ship's circuits with this gun

ONE: Increase to full power! Can you give us any more?
SPOCK [OC]: Our circuits are beginning to heat. We'll have to cease power.

I was talking about the phasers, not photon torpedoes or any other form of antimatter weaponry.

That's true, it was 10 times what they expected, my mistake. But my point still stands.

No, they can absolutely use regular surface bombardment, not melting the crust. Melting it is just head canon based on absolutely no evidence and phaser barrages damaging inhabited areas. It's entirely possible that they'd pulverize the crust with photon torpedoes.

Idazmi · May 13, 2019

ByAsura said:
I wasn't adding context to the calculation, for the last time it was to show how generally innaccurate the feat is on the page. Just drop this point, please.

My point is, that was a minor, easily corrected quibble that didn't really help your case.

ByAsura said:
I know phasers are meant to be precise, that's why even orbital ones have a stun setting. No, it's NFL to assume that they can spread to envelop an entire continent, unless you're just talking about just destroying and not creating a beam wide enough to completely envelop one. When applying General Order 24, Starfleet generally target cities with their phasers, like in Mirror, Mirror, A Tase of Armageddo, or a Discovery episode that I can't remember for the life of me. There's nothing in the show to support such a claim.

I just showed you one: McCoy asking for a "margin of safety" for people who were on the literal opposite side of an M-class planet from the Enterprise's phaser blasts. He wouldn't ask for that if it wasn't relevant. And no, it's not a No Limits Fallacy: it's a reasonable assumption given the sheer observed difference between "stun" and "maximum disrupt" even among hand phasers. In all fact, I'm putting a stricter limit on the power of phasers than you are.

I didn't agree with your proposal because it treats the moon-splitting feat as casually doable when they had to rig the phasers through the Warp Drive (not normal for a pre-refit Constitution Class ship) and burn out the dilithium crystals to fail at it - they didn't actually split the moon, though they came close. The refit Enterprise has the phasers wired through the Warp Engines by default, so the refit ca pull that off casually: but the pre-refit ship simply cannot.

Thanks for pointing that out: we should probably make separate keys for the pre-refit and post-refit ship.

ByAsura said:
Also, since you use Discovery, Lorca states "[the Sarcophagus] can and will destroy an entire planet in the blink of an eye." A hyperbole? Yes, but it still means the ship that had its ass kicked by the Discovery can destroy planetary surfaces quickly.

Excuse me? When have I used Discovery in my actual analyses? I tend to avoid Discovery like the plague.

ByAsura said:
Plus just destroying the Americas in a single attack is Multi-Continent level.

I see that. That calc reports 6.27 Petatons for low Multi-Continent Level: not much higher than the 4 petatons listed on the current AP for a standard phaser burst. Note that I did specify that 4 petatons was a lower limit: "At least 4 petatons for a standard phaser burst."

ByAsura said:
Firstly, phasers likely didn't exist in Star Trek back when The Cage was released (see retroactive continuity), laser cannons and pistols did. Secondly, the quote was "that entry may have stood up against hand lasers, but we can transmit the ship's power against it. Enough to blast half a continent",

It's not a retcon: lasers are seen alongside phasers in TOS within the same episode more than once, and were even seen in TNG. Unlike phasers, lasers have no "stun" or "disrupt" settings.

ByAsura said:
they used enough internal power to put stress on their ship's circuits with this gun

1. The laser in The Cage actually blew through the door and out the other side of that rocky hill: the Talosians made an illusion to obscure this fact until the very end of the episode. Just saying, you should probably watch the whole episodes, or at least read the transcripts for full context.

2. They were using energy transmission circuits (like the transporter) to remotely feed power into the gun: not the main phaser banks, which are on an entirely different and much more powerful circuit.

ByAsura said:
I was talking about the phasers, not photon torpedoes or any other form of antimatter weaponry.

All of the Enterprise's weapons - including the phasers - are powered by Antimatter, and you did bring up antimatter bombs in your previous post.

ByAsura said:
That's true, it was 10 times what they expected, my mistake. But my point still stands.

No it doesn't. That's an example of a ship from a century before the NCC-1701 Enterprise, blasting a mountain the size of mount Denali to fragments in one shot, by accident.

ByAsura said:
No, they can absolutely use regular surface bombardment, not melting the crust. Melting it is just head canon based on absolutely no evidence and phaser barrages damaging inhabited areas. It's entirely possible that they'd pulverize the crust with photon torpedoes.

No evidence, as in, the existence of advanced armor and shielding technology in Star Trek? The Halkans are notably pure pacifists with no weapons at all: but other than that General Order 24 would often need to be able to overcome materials literally dozens of times harder than diamond, in additio to blasting through any planetary shields. That would take the necessary yields to that level even if they don't actually bother melting the crust.

ByAsura · May 13, 2019

That's not an example of a continental spread. Yes it's an NFL, and no you're not "putting a stricter limit on the power of phasers", you're saying that they can envelop whole continents, something never implied to be within the scope of a phaser's maximum spread. Give real proof they actually can.

I'm not treating it as casual, because it's with the Warp Core's full power (something already added), they didn't do it (something that's not on the profile that I actually want to add) and the damage was so severe that they couldn't repair it when stationed in space. All I'm suggesting is that the two feats be placed in the same tier, not like a special feat.

I agree with making two separate tiers for the pre and post-refit. It contains 9 dual phaser banks that directly channel power from the Warp Core, one that's implied to be vastly superior to its previous counterpart, and it traveled from a planet to deep within a nebula in minutes at impulse.

I wasn't implying that using Discovery is a bad source, just that a lot of people find it to be questionable, so since you were using examples it seemed fine for me to do the same.

I've watched the episode and read the transcript many times. I didn't realise there were hand-held phasers because, IIRC, only Number One and Tyler use them once after abandoning them. However, it's still likely that the feat referred to the Enterprise's laser cannons given the context. My point mostly referred to shipboard phasers, however, which they are neither shown nor implied to have at all.

That's not the point at all. The point was the cannon was concentrated to the area of a door, not that it cut through a hill. Yes, and these were the exact same circuits Jose said they could transmit enough internal power to destroy half a continent with, so that's irrelevant.

They're powered by antimatter, but they don't create antimatter explosions because they don't contain any antimatter. By antimatter weapons, I meant weapons that use antimatter to cause damage, like photon torpedoes.

The point here was one of the only examples of a phaser exploding something rather than vaporizing it. So yes, this point does still hold up, weaker or not.

Oh yes, because it can't be pulverized? What's easer, to pulverize something harder than diamond, or to melt it. Regardless, pulverizing a planet's crust would likely destroy a planet as much as melting it would. After all, Photon Torpedoes are more powerful, and they produce explosions and radiation, not mainly heat like a phaser.

Idazmi · May 14, 2019

ByAsura said:
That's not an example of a continental spread. Yes it's an NFL, and no you're not "putting a stricter limit on the power of phasers", you're saying that they can envelop whole continents, something never implied to be within the scope of a phaser's maximum spread. Give real proof they actually can.

You're the only person talking about "spread", and you're the only one here who wants to upgrade phasers to Multi-Continent level, so I don't see why you're calling me out on a supposed "No Limits Fallacy". The limit for the Enterprise's standard phasers is continental. Also, let me ask a question: what do you even mean by "spread"? Are you asking for something like this:

Only wide enough to hit an entire continent? That wouldn't work: the power of the beam per square inch would be geometrically reduced, and it would probably fail to even effectively penetrate the planet's atmosphere. You want a bombardment of concentrated pulses, not a "spread". Like this:

Assuming that a widely spread phaser beam does more damage is a No Limit Fallacy. By the by, since that feat is from 100 years before the NCC-1701, I honestly don't know what make's you think the 1701 couldn't destroy a continent with it's phasers.

ByAsura said:
I'm not treating it as casual, because it's with the Warp Core's full power (something already added), they didn't do it (something that's not on the profile that I actually want to add) and the damage was so severe that they couldn't repair it when stationed in space. All I'm suggesting is that the two feats be placed in the same tier, not like a special feat.

The two feats aren't in the same tier. Or if they are, they're only barely in the same tier, at opposite ends. The Enterprise can destroy a continent with her standard phasers, but she cannot blast through the mass of a moon without rigging the phasers into the engines - that's way, way above merely continent-level firepower.

ByAsura said:
I agree with making two separate tiers for the pre and post-refit. It contains 9 dual phaser banks that directly channel power from the Warp Core, one that's implied to be vastly superior to its previous counterpart, and it traveled from a planet to deep within a nebula in minutes at impulse.

You need to brush up on your Star Trek lore: Impulse engines took the U.S.S. Valiant - a pre-Warp ship - to the edge of the Galaxy.

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/2.htm <- Transcript of Where No Man Has Gone Before.

Code:

Captain's log, Star date 1312.4. The impossible has happened. From directly ahead, we're picking up a recorded distress signal, the call letters of a vessel which has been missing for over two centuries. Did another Earth ship once probe out of the galaxy as we intend to do? What happened to it out there? Is this some warning they've left behind? KIRK: This is the Captain speaking. The object we encountered is a ship's disaster recorder, apparently ejected from the S.S. Valiant two hundred years ago. SPOCK: The tapes are burnt out. Trying the memory banks. KIRK: We hope to learn from the recorder what the Valiant was doing here and what destroyed the vessel. We'll move out into our probe as soon as we have those answers. All decks, stand by. (...) SPOCK: Decoding memory banks. I'll try to interpolate. The Valiant had encountered a magnetic space storm and was being swept in this direction. KIRK: The old impulse engines weren't strong enough. SPOCK: Swept past this point, about a half light year out of the galaxy, they were thrown clear, turned, and headed back into the galaxy here.

The Romulan Bird of Prey only had Impulse, and it went from Romulis all the way to Earth on it's own. A lot of people who get their facts from outside the actual show seriously understate how fast Impulse Engines actually are. They're certainly not Warp, but they aren't sublight, either.

ByAsura said:
I wasn't implying that using Discovery is a bad source, just that a lot of people find it to be questionable, so since you were using examples it seemed fine for me to do the same.

Did you even read what I said last time? Discovery is questionable, and I prefer not using it.

ByAsura said:
I've watched the episode and read the transcript many times. I didn't realise there were hand-held phasers because, IIRC, only Number One and Tyler use them once after abandoning them. However, it's still likely that the feat referred to the Enterprise's laser cannons given the context. My point mostly referred to shipboard phasers, however, which they are neither shown nor implied to have at all.

I feel like I'm talking to a brick. You can see in The Man Trap, Robert Crater has a laser pistol, and Kirk in the very same episode has a phaser pistol that he uses to stun Crater. Phasers are not retconned lasers: lasers are less developed technology than phasers and coexist in the same franchise. Just like the Colt Peacemaker was first made in 1872, but you can still buy one today, alongside a Colt AR-15 from 1973.

ByAsura said:
That's not the point at all. The point was the cannon was concentrated to the area of a door, not that it cut through a hill. Yes, and these were the exact same circuits Jose said they could transmit enough internal power to destroy half a continent with, so that's irrelevant.

So you're saying that Jose Tyler went to a round table discussion with his superior officers to decide on a course of action, and then proceeded to lie about the ship's power output - while Spock and Number One were both at the same table with him - and your evidence for this is a psychic illusion that was shown in that very episode to be false.

ByAsura said:
They're powered by antimatter, but they don't create antimatter explosions because they don't contain any antimatter. By antimatter weapons, I meant weapons that use antimatter to cause damage, like photon torpedoes. The point here was one of the only examples of a phaser exploding something rather than vaporizing it. So yes, this point does still hold up, weaker or not.

I think I understand now: you think that phasers don't cause explosive or fragmentation damage. I've already been through this with XING06, but I have no problem repeating it.

Star Trek - Beam Weapon Effects

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x00hd/thecagehd1162.jpg <- The laser you were talking about earlier: the beam actually violently fragmented the stones around the door.

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x00hd/thecagehd0651.jpg <- As did the hand lasers before it, to a lesser degree.

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/18300000/Odo-Gifs-odo-18331000-300-225.gif <- That's Odo literally exploding from hand phaser fire.

https://i.imgur.com/lCpyk8t.gif <- Lieutenant Remmick also explodes from phaser fire, and quite graphically.

https://i2.wp.com/www.tor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/st-trap17.jpg?resize=740,555&type=vertical <- From Robert Crater's hand laser shooting a stone pillar, causing it to explode.

Star Trek - Ship Weapon Effects

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du4k-Gl9aBY - A fleet of warbirds firing on a planet with torpedoes and disruptors. Notice the massive shockwaves and sub-atmospheric explosions generated by both kinds of weapons. In the ensuing battle, note the physical impact that the weapons have on the ships.

https://media.giphy.com/media/13D1aaaTiI1tXa/giphy.gif <- Enterprise-D firing on an unprotected Borg Cube. Notice the explosions and shallow craters each shot generates.

https://78.media.tumblr.com/05354a88964d7ba9e2ce562e4dffe21a/tumblr_n389rvMXTG1rzu2xzo4_r1_400.gif <- In the Mutara Nebula, the Enterprise fires a photon torpedo at the starship Reliant, followed by a phaser strike. Purely physical weapon effects follow both shots, including fragmentation.

https://78.media.tumblr.com/32df0bb85d73f56eed5bb958317898f3/tumblr_n389rvMXTG1rzu2xzo5_r1_400.gif <- Another torpedo strike from the same battle.

https://78.media.tumblr.com/76eff550684435f36067eb6c5075a4a4/tumblr_n389rvMXTG1rzu2xzo6_r1_400.gif <- The condition of the Reliant after those impacts.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f8/c1/42/f8c1422fbd21cac4259d073d16b9a896.gif <- A phase canon (predecessor to phaser) blowing a ship in half.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e3/fe/29/e3fe298e96f4c231ddba3db531266709.gif <- A Klingon fleet under phaser and torpedo fire: the ship on the left gets blown to pieces.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Lwnfly1Q...Ev_yvCY1NAsCxDQCLcB/s1600/Star_Trek_6_46b.gif <- Klingon Bird of Prey destroyed by torpedoes: same as before, purely physical weapon effects follow.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-K4yUHn5rR...iE/s320/tumblr_lom30s1ZD51qj6sk2o1_r1_250.gif <- Voyager fores torpedoes at the Equinox: same as before, purely physical weapon effects follow.

https://78.media.tumblr.com/81122b192ad1e6a87c33b23e7c74a375/tumblr_mpedcg4cpE1rzu2xzo1_r1_400.gif <- During the Dominion Wars, two ships get blown apart: same as above. In fact, the ships are physically tossed aside by the impacts.

The explosions and fragmentation are coming from Direct Energy Transfer, not some "spreading" non-physical technobabble. I can provide more references if necessary, but I don't think it should be necessary after this.

ByAsura said:
Oh yes, because it can't be pulverized? What's easer, to pulverize something harder than diamond, or to melt it. Regardless, pulverizing a planet's crust would likely destroy a planet as much as melting it would. After all, Photon Torpedoes are more powerful, and they produce explosions and radiation, not mainly heat like a phaser.

See the above image links. Phaser beams have a clear kinetic component to their damage, along with thermal effects.

ByAsura · May 14, 2019

I thought you were referring to phasers being large enough to envelop a continent rather than just being able to destroy one, as you said the calculation was based on laser-like weapons doing this. My mistake on this part, I concede. I never said I thought a phasers couldn't destroy continents, in fact I said they should be able to throughout the thread, my whole argument is that they're Multi-Continent level, I even gave a scene where a phaser blast destroys a continent-sized portion of the Dominion Homeworld (or a fake of it). This should have been extremely obvious with context.

ByAsura said:
Not even the Romulan-Cardassian fleet did this while they almost instantly destroyed 30% of a planet's crust, despite being eager to stop a potential war with a force technologically superior to the Federation.

You've never given a source for splitting a moon being 4 petatons, and I've actually given a calc that places this feat at far, far above baseline Multi-Continent level (which this also confirms, although it's a quora answer). I've argued this point many times, yet you've never given a single source other than a sourceless OBD page. Also, this still doesn't close the gap between phasers and photon torpedoes. In most Star Trek series, Photon Torpedoes, despite their superior power, damage ships phasers can. Also, why should the firepower of the ship's entire warp core be inferior to a Photon Torpedo?

I didn't put that one in because it's already on the Enterprise's page. The feat I gave was just supposed to be another consistent FTL feat. IIRC, Impulse can be adjusted to either FTL or sublight. From what I've heard (although I'm extremely sceptical of this, so please correct me if I'm wrong) the nearest edge of the milky way to Earth is 25,000 light years. Assuming the feat took place between 1969 (though the 1990s is more accurate, and still a gigantic low-ball) and 2217, the feat would be 100.8 times SoL.

I was only talking about The Cage (which should be extremely obvious since the point was that it's a retcon), not other episode. There's literally no evidence Phasers existing on a ship during The Cage that isn't a retcon, and it would make no sense for them to use phasers if they did given the laser cannon. "Then proceeded to lie about the ship's power output." What the hell is this supposed mean? He said they could transmit enough internal power to destroy half a continent. At this point I'm convinced you're the one who's lying to discredit me. "Your evidence for this is a psychic illusion that was shown in that very episode to be false." I was saying they concentrated this to the area of a door. Which they did.

I didn't say they don't cause explosion based damage (I actually said they don't create antimatter explosions), just that it's far more rare and they're not usually portrayed that way (I even gave examples of when they explode).

ByAsura said:
They do not create a massive matter-antimatter explosion capable of such things.

ByAsura said:
They're powered by antimatter, but they don't create antimatter explosions because they don't contain any antimatter. By antimatter weapons, I meant weapons that use antimatter to cause damage, like photon torpedoes.

In the case of hand-held phasers, it's mostly for lower settings as well (depending on their actual ability to destroy a creature). Also, many of those feats are not phasers (especially the DS9 vs the fleet gif) and can easily be disregarded as destroying systems of these ships (such as Arsenal of Freedom), creating explosions:

Just including TOG episodes, in The Doomsday Machine, Journey to Babel (even inspite of cutting a ship in half, although there were fragments), The Paradise Syndrome, and The Ulimate Computer, phasers do not explode against ships, rather just strike their shields or hulls, with the only explosions being due to damaging other ships

In TOG: Who Mourns for Adonias, the Enterprise vaporizes Apollo's temple.

In TOG:The Tholian Web, the Enterprise disables and heats up a Tholian ship rather than blowing it up.

In TNG: Masks, the Enterprise's phasers at 1/10th full power vaporize most of a comet. Albeit this was a controlled blast designed to only melt the ice on a comet and stop at the core.

In TNG: All Good Things... the Enterprise's phasers cut cleanly through this ship, only creating explosions as a results of the damaged systems. But this is out of context, as before they blasted through a ship's wing, not cut, and the only reason this isn't in shown here is because I can't find a clip.

In TNG: A Matter of Time, the Enterprise fires on a planet with concentrated phaser blasts to target specific points. These visibly vaporize and melt portions of ice they hit.

In DS9: Destiny, the Defiant's phaser cannons can't produce a phaser beam wide enough to encompass a comet, and have to be reconfigured to vaporize it entirely. It only fails due to sabotage, and the Defiant only produces bursts capable of fragmenting it, the ship's usual and unique setting as a result of its phaser cannons.

GILORA: The same thing would happen if you tried to destroy it with a phaser beam.
O'BRIEN: Not necessarily. I could modify the Defiant's phaser array to generate a beam wide enough to encompass the entire comet.
ULANI: Vaporising it evenly so it won't break up.

O'BRIEN: I don't know, sir. The entire weapons relay just blew. All defensive systems are down.
DAX: Benjamin, sensors show that the modified phasers never came online. We fired a standard burst and it shattered the comet instead of vapourising it.

But, you know what? Both have a ton of evidence. So I'm just going to break even and say it depends on the setting or something, as they can both explode or vaporize something. If anything, phasers producing explosions and force here proves my point about them not melting the crust. Also, Photon Torpedoes are still stronger.

This isn't a point in the argument or point in the thread, but the comet feat the Defiant would have performed is, at an absolute minimum, fairly high into Island level, and, at an absolute maximum, Country level. While this is absolutely nothing compared to the ship's max firepower (literally millions to billions times weaker than the Enterprise-D alone), I thought it might be interesting.

Idazmi · May 15, 2019

ByAsura said:
I thought you were referring to phasers being large enough to envelop a continent rather than just being able to destroy one, as you said the calculation was based on laser-like weapons doing this. My mistake on this part, I concede. I never said I thought a phasers couldn't destroy continents, in fact I said they should be able to throughout the thread, my whole argument is that they're Multi-Continent level, I even gave a scene where a phaser blast destroys a continent-sized portion of the Dominion Homeworld (or a fake of it). This should have been extremely obvious with context.

Alright: we're mostly on the same page as far as that.

ByAsura said:
You've never given a source for splitting a moon being 4 petatons, and I've actually given a calc that places this feat at far, far above baseline Multi-Continent level (which this also confirms, although it's a quora answer). I've argued this point many times, yet you've never given a single source other than a sourceless OBD page. Also, this still doesn't close the gap between phasers and photon torpedoes. In most Star Trek series, Photon Torpedoes, despite their superior power, damage ships phasers can. Also, why should the firepower of the ship's entire warp core be inferior to a Photon Torpedo?

Whoa, I wasn't saying that the moon feat was 4 petatons: that would be way too low! I said "At least 4 petatons for a standard phaser burst." As in, we know that phasers can casually destroy a continent, and that's a baseline minimum of energy needed to do that! When you showed me this calc that put the destruction of the Americas at 6.27 Petatons, I was thinking of a typical, unmodified full power phaser blast - NOT the moon feat. The moon feat is definitely well above what a photon torpedo can do, even considering the kinetic force behind it at Warp.

If I did the conversions right, that Quora calc comes out to roughly 2 Exatons, and your Fabrini Asteroid calc is 157.3 petatons. It's worth noting that the incident with Fabrini Asteroid occurred seven episodes after the moon feat, indicating that they kept the phasers tied into the Warp Engines. We may need three keys for the Enterprise: one for how she was configured at launch, one for her abilities at the end of the 5 year mission, and then one for the refit.

ByAsura said:
I didn't put that one in because it's already on the Enterprise's page. The feat I gave was just supposed to be another consistent FTL feat. IIRC, Impulse can be adjusted to either FTL or sublight. From what I've heard (although I'm extremely sceptical of this, so please correct me if I'm wrong) the nearest edge of the milky way to Earth is 25,000 light years. Assuming the feat took place between 1969 (though the 1990s is more accurate, and still a gigantic low-ball) and 2217, the feat would be 100.8 times SoL.

That seems about accurate. Warp has a clearly defined feat that puts it at 766,029.48 times SoL at Warp 8.

ByAsura said:
I was only talking about The Cage (which should be extremely obvious since the point was that it's a retcon), not other episode. There's literally no evidence Phasers existing on a ship during The Cage that isn't a retcon, and it would make no sense for them to use phasers if they did given the laser cannon. "Then proceeded to lie about the ship's power output." What the hell is this supposed mean? He said they could transmit enough internal power to destroy half a continent. At this point I'm convinced you're the one who's lying to discredit me. "Your evidence for this is a psychic illusion that was shown in that very episode to be false." I was saying they concentrated this to the area of a door. Which they did.

Right, this was part of our miscommunication about "spread". Now that we understand each other there, I think this point can be dropped. I apologize if I seemed on edge: I get in to debates like this fairly often, and they can get pretty stressful sometimes.

ByAsura said:
I didn't say they don't cause explosion based damage (...) If anything, phasers producing explosions and force here proves my point about them not melting the crust. Also, Photon Torpedoes are still stronger.

When used by starships in battle, phasers typically cause localized vaporization first, followed by penetration of the hull (the beam basically burns it's way in), and then violent fragmentation and shearing as the hull reacts explosively to the heat and pressure. And, as I said above, I was never saying that phasers are (typically) more powerful than photon torpedoes.

ByAsura said:
This isn't a point in the argument or point in the thread, but the comet feat the Defiant would have performed is, at an absolute minimum, fairly high into Island level, and, at an absolute maximum, Country level. While this is absolutely nothing compared to the ship's max firepower (literally millions to billions times weaker than the Enterprise-D alone), I thought it might be interesting.

It is. The phasers probably went clean through and broke up the comet in the process.

ByAsura · May 15, 2019

Ok.

I'll drop this point then. But even dividing the feat by 8 is at this level. I assume the calc is based on destroying a continent with a laser like weapon. If this is the case, perhaps the format could be Continent level+ (At least 4 petatons for a standard phaser burst. Capable of destroying continents from orbit), Multi-Continent level [not with photon torpedoes] (By chanelling the full power of the ship's warp core through its phasers, the Enterprise nearly split an asteroid almost as large as Earth's moon by concentrating its fire onto a fissure, albeit at the cost of an overload).

Ok.

I'm sorry if I was being rude as well.

I'll respond later.

This was based on the reconfigured phasers that were capable of vaporizing the comet.

Idazmi · May 22, 2019

Okay. How does this look?

Attack Potency: Continent level+ with standard phasers (At least 4 petatons, capable of destroying continents from high orbit). This can be increased to Multi-Continent level by channeling the full power of the warp core through the phasers (powerful enough to split a moon approximately the size of Luna in half with repeat fire. After the refit, warp-powered phasers are standard). Multi-Continent level with both antimatter bombs and photon torpedoes (approximately 66 petatons per photon torpedo: it takes 77 Petatons of energy to blow Earth's atmosphere into space in one blast, and one of Enterprise's remote-detonated antimatter bombs blasted half of the atmosphere of the Earth-sized planet Tycho IV into space and left a visible continent-sized crater on the surface, with associated secondary damages including a shock-wave that propagated into high orbit with enough force to threaten a starship. Because photon torpedoes also use antimatter, it can be assumed that they possess a similar yield, and because they can move at warp speed, the total yield becomes higher with the kinetic impact).

The ship's combined weapons arsenal is repeatedly stated to be able to destroy the entire livable surface of an Earth-like planet (Eminiar VII being a specific example), a feat which requires a minimum total energy of 7 Exatons (assuming the crust is merely melted and not completely disintegrated).

ByAsura · May 22, 2019

It looks ok, but, in my opinion, I think it would look better by being more concise, also the text is supposed to be in the same bracket.

Attack Potency: Continent level+ with standard Phaser Burst (At least 4 petatons, capable of destroying continents from high orbit). Multi-Continent level (By chanelling the full power of the ship's warp core through its phasers, the Enterprise nearly split an asteroid almost as large as the Earth's moon by concentrating fire onto a fissure. A mere ounce of antimatter, compared to the 1.5 kg of a single Photon Torpedo, ripped away half of Tycho IV's atmosphere [a feat that requires 66 petatons of energy] and left a visible continent-sized crater on the surface, with the associated shockwave that propagated into high orbit threatening the starship. In accordance with General Order 24, the Enterprise can destroy the inhabited portion of a planet's surface [such as Eminiar VII], and was even stated to be capable of laying waste to 892-IV's entire surface in the episode "Bread and Circuses", a feat which requires a minimum total energy of 7 Exatons assuming the crust is merely melted and not completely disintegrated. Kirk threatened to destroy an sub-light speed asteroid-ship with a diameter of 200 miles)

ByAsura · May 22, 2019

Actually, I did a calculation based on the feat.

The minimum speed to break orbit is 11.2 km/s, and the Earth's atmosphere is 5.148e+18 kg

(0.5)(5.148e+18)(11200^2) = 77.1707839388 Petatons

Since the results are the same, I assume this is where the calc got its value from.

However, I did a calc here that uses the speed from the Enterprise's orbital position. I got 6.36627759053 Zettatons, thousands of times higher, and well into Small Planet level.

Idazmi · May 22, 2019

ByAsura said:
It looks ok, but, in my opinion, I think it would look better by being more concise, also the text is supposed to be in the same bracket.

Do you remember Yukaphile's attempt to rate the Enterprise-D's phasers to 8-C minimum and 6-B maximum, despite the fact that you had already showed him clear moon level feats? After what I've seen, the nonsense fanboys try to bring to Star Trek themed debates (Yukaphile is only one example of many that I have encountered), I want to leave no room for ambiguity. Any vagueness in the article will very likely be challenged, and attempts will be made to bring the ship's AP down as low as city-level - or lower - out of spite.

ByAsura said:
Attack Potency: Continent level+ with standard Phaser Burst (At least 4 petatons, capable of destroying continents from high orbit). Multi-Continent level (By chanelling the full power of the ship's warp core through its phasers, the Enterprise nearly split an asteroid almost as large as the Earth's moon by concentrating fire onto a fissure. A mere ounce of antimatter, compared to the 1.5 kg of a single Photon Torpedo, ripped away half of Tycho IV's atmosphere [a feat that requires 66 petatons of energy] and left a visible continent-sized crater on the surface, with the associated shockwave that propagated into high orbit threatening the starship. In accordance with General Order 24, the Enterprise can destroy the inhabited portion of a planet's surface [such as Eminiar VII], and was even stated to be capable of laying waste to 892-IV's entire surface in the episode "Bread and Circuses", a feat which requires a minimum total energy of 7 Exatons assuming the crust is merely melted and not completely disintegrated. Kirk threatened to destroy an sub-light speed asteroid-ship with a diameter of 200 miles)

The "1.5 kg of antimatter" comes from the non-canonical TNG "tech manual" - the same one Yukaphile was using to try and override canonical feats. Nothing in the canon tells us just how much antimatter is actually in a photon torpedo. We should avoid running off of commonly held assumptions - a lot of which, sadly, come from that book - and use what the canon directly tells us.

ByAsura said:
Actually, I did a calculation based on the feat.

The minimum speed to break orbit is 11.2 km/s, and the Earth's atmosphere is 5.148e+18 kg

(0.5)(5.148e+18)(11200^2) = 77.1707839388 Petatons

Since the results are the same, I assume this is where the calc got its value from.

However, I did a calc here that uses the speed from the Enterprise's orbital position. I got 6.36627759053 Zettatons, thousands of times higher, and well into Small Planet level.

Okay, if that blast was as high as Small Planet Level, the planet would have well more than a surface-deep crater in it, and if it were as low as Country Level, the blast wouldn't have made a continent sized crater - how would the crater itself is bigger than the feat it represents? Since this is a shot-by-shot remake of a TOS episode, it's also probably not a good idea to take the Enterprise's visual position in space as literally true.

Idazmi · May 22, 2019

Revising my previous proposal:

Attack Potency: Continent level+ with standard phasers [At least 4 petatons, capable of destroying continents from high orbit]. This can be increased to Multi-Continent level by channeling the full power of the warp core through the phasers [powerful enough to split a moon approximately the size of Luna in half with repeat fire, or destroy an asteroid-ship with a diameter of 200 miles before it can collide with an inhabited planet. After the refit, warp-powered phasers are standard.] Multi-Continent level with both antimatter bombs and photon torpedoes [approximately 66 petatons per photon torpedo: it takes 77 Petatons of energy to blast Earth's atmosphere into space, and one of Enterprise's remote-detonated antimatter bombs blasted half of the atmosphere of the Earth-sized planet Tycho IV into space and left a visible continent-sized crater on the surface, with associated secondary damages including a shock-wave that propagated into high orbit with enough force to threaten a starship. Photon torpedoes also use antimatter - it can be assumed that they possess a similar warhead, and because they can move at warp speed, the total yield is higher with the kinetic impact]. In accordance with General Order 24, the Enterprise can destroy the inhabited portion of a planet's surface [such as Eminiar VII], and was even stated to be capable of laying waste to 892-IV's entire surface in the episode "Bread and Circuses", a feat which requires a minimum total energy of 7 Exatons, assuming the crust is merely melted and not completely disintegrated.

ByAsura · May 22, 2019

Fine.

Those statistics aren't contradicted at all, and actually make sense given the size of a torpedo. Yuka was using contradictory stats, like phasers having a minimum energy yield, even though they can be lowered to merely stun humanoids. However, this stuff wasn't really established during this time, so I'll drop it.

Idazmi said:
Okay, if that blast was as high as Small Planet Level, the planet would have well more than a surface-deep crater in it, and if it were as low as Country Level, the blast wouldn't have made a continent sized crater - how would the crater itself is bigger than the feat it represents? Since this is a shot-by-shot remake of a TOS episode, it's also probably not a good idea to take the Enterprise's visual position in space as literally true.

This is just called fiction. In real life it would have destroyed a massive junk of the planet, sure. But this is not because the authors don't do calculations. Also, if it were real life and the blast was 77 petatons, a huge portion of the planet would be exposed, rather than just a big crater. I agree its not always a good idea to do this, but it's literally near high orbit, where the shockwaves hit the ship, so this makes no difference.

I'm thinking about creating a profile for the Enterprise (NX-01). The AP/Durability is a bit low and the speed might be wanked, but those are just a placeholders. What do you think?

Idazmi · May 24, 2019

ByAsura said:
Fine.

Alright then.

ByAsura said:
Those statistics aren't contradicted at all, and actually make sense given the size of a torpedo. Yuka was using contradictory stats, like phasers having a minimum energy yield, even though they can be lowered to merely stun humanoids. However, this stuff wasn't really established during this time, so I'll drop it.

It would make a photon torpedo 35 times stronger than an antimatter bomb that blew a continent-sized crater into a planet.

ByAsura said:
I'm thinking about creating a profile for the Enterprise (NX-01). The AP/Durability is a bit low and the speed might be wanked, but those are just a placeholders. What do you think?

Looks pretty good. Clearing up some inaccuracies: I don't think transporters should count as Data Manipulation: Starfleet doesn't rewrite computers with them, and that particular ship didn't have the transporter transition the crew into another plane of existence. I also think Forcefield Creation should be removed, since the Navigational Deflector isn't actually a forcefield so much as an inverted tractor beam, and creating energy fields is not the same as having an actual forcefield.

The AP would be nowhere near country Level since the Avenger did no meaningful damage when it fired on the Defiant's's bare hull:

In A Mirror Darkly - Avenger's Last Stand

There's sparking circuitry, but the hull didn't breach even after repeated fire, and the Defiant showed no signs of difficulty at all after main power was restored. Whatever damage they did was superficial at best.

ByAsura · May 24, 2019

That's true.

They didn't have tractor beam technology back then and it's still counted as a deflector. Also the definition of forcefield creation is "The ability to make forcefields (also known as barriers) to protect the user and/or their allies from attack. Some characters can use barriers for other purposes, such as opening them up in opponents to kill them." However, I'll remove data manipulation and replace it with energy manipulation or matter manipulation.

Given phasers on 1% are equally harmless, if not moreso given their complete and utter inability to harm the ship, they should be around that range, but I'm willing to compromise and give it a far higher rather than At least Country level given that no feat even approaches this and it's likely an outlier.

Idazmi · May 25, 2019

ByAsura said:
They didn't have tractor beam technology back then and it's still counted as a deflector.

Yeah, that's a bit of a continuity gaffe: canonically, tractor beams and navigational deflectors are supposed to be the same technology. I suppose it can be explained by assuming that the Coalition of Planets wasn't yet advanced enough to make smaller or reversible versions.

ByAsura said:
Also the definition of forcefield creation is "The ability to make forcefields (also known as barriers) to protect the user and/or their allies from attack. Some characters can use barriers for other purposes, such as opening them up in opponents to kill them."

Right: as far as I can tell, the N-X class doesn't generate forcefields at all.

ByAsura said:
Given phasers on 1% are equally harmless, if not moreso given their complete and utter inability to harm the ship, they should be around that range, but I'm willing to compromise and give it a far higher rather than At least Country level given that no feat even approaches this and it's likely an outlier.

I see what you're saying. However, the humans in the Mirror Universe managed to conquer alien races like the Vulcans, the Andorians and so on. It's very likely that they have far better weapons than their counterparts.

ByAsura · May 25, 2019

I think this would still count as forcefields. It's just a protective barrier, even if it uses tractor beam technology. Also an energy field is a forcefield.

That's why I said somewhat comparable. They shouldn't be far inferior as one NX-Class ship, if not an entire Assault Fleet of at least 2 (and heavily implied to be far more, as they say thousands died) were completely outclassed by one Vulcan, two Andorian, and I think Xindi vessels. But in the intro they are illustrated as destroying Klingon vessels with torpedoes, so they are more powerful.

Idazmi · May 25, 2019

ByAsura said:
I think this would still count as forcefields. It's just a protective barrier, even if it uses tractor beam technology.

The navigational deflector doesn't generate barriers.

It generates beams.

ByAsura said:
Also an energy field is a forcefield.

Not if it doesn't protect anything. You can generate a field of static electricity and still utterly fail to protect something.

ByAsura said:
That's why I said somewhat comparable. They shouldn't be far inferior as one NX-Class ship, if not an entire Assault Fleet of at least 2 (and heavily implied to be far more, as they say thousands died) were completely outclassed by one Vulcan, two Andorian, and I think Xindi vessels. But in the intro they are illustrated as destroying Klingon vessels with torpedoes, so they are more powerful.

Also note that torpedoes are missiles: they aren't reliant on the ship they launched from. Technically, you could probably fire one of the NCC-1701's torpedoes from an N-X class ship. Or even a Quantum torpedo.

ByAsura · May 25, 2019

That's a deflector beam actually designed to deal damage or deflect. It protects the ships from small particles. Trip even says if it wasn't there tiny bits of dust would punch a hole through the ship. Also, the energy fields Malcolm set up are capable of blocking attacks from monsters the size of a cargo bay and phase-pistol hits.

I know. What did you mean by this point exactly?

Idazmi · May 25, 2019

ByAsura said:
That's a deflector beam actually designed to deal damage or deflect. It protects the ships from small particles. Trip even says if it wasn't there tiny bits of dust would punch a hole through the ship. Also, the energy fields Malcolm set up are capable of blocking attacks from monsters the size of a cargo bay and phase-pistol hits.

The Navigational Deflector has only fired beams in every reference. The beams are projected ahead of the ship's flight path to sweep particles out of the way. It simply does not generate barriers. If it did, they would obviously use it as a shield against weapons.

ByAsura said:
I know. What did you mean by this point exactly?

Nothing really: I was just giving a way the Mirror Universe N-X ships could possibly defeat Vulcan and Andorian ships. In order to conquer those races, they'd have to.

ByAsura · May 25, 2019

The navigational deflector is active on the NX-01 while traveling, and it is designed to save the ship from debris when traveling at such high velocities. Those images are the deflector dish creating a deflector pulse, like in Best of Both Worlds where they chanel most of the Enterprise-D's internal power to disable a Borg Cube.

REED: Pardon me, but if I don't realign the deflector, the first grain of space dust we come across will blow a hole through this ship the size of your fist.
REED: The deflector's sequencing. It's perfectly normal.

Ok. The best they can really do is use Photon Torpedoes from the Klingons, and that's a maybe. Stuff like Quantum Torpedoes were quite new in The Next Generation, and that's assuming the Defiant was designed to hold them ever since its creation. It's more likely they were introduced in DS9. Also, if they have to use other weapons to defeat these people, it proves that the main universe should be somewhat comparable.

By the way, I did a calc of the Enterprise deflecting the moon-sized asteroid. It got, at a minimum, Continent level, with Multi-Continent level being far more likely.

Idazmi · May 25, 2019

ByAsura said:
The navigational deflector is active on the NX-01 while traveling, and it is designed to save the ship from debris when traveling at such high velocities. Those images are the deflector dish creating a deflector pulse, like in Best of Both Worlds where they chanel most of the Enterprise-D's internal power to disable a Borg Cube.

The issue is not what the navigational deflector does, but HOW it does it. It's never described as making a barrier of energy: it's described as a "beam" of energy that "sweeps" ahead to deflect dust and debris. Think of it less like a windshield and more like a leaf blower.

ByAsura said:
Ok. The best they can really do is use Photon Torpedoes from the Klingons, and that's a maybe. Stuff like Quantum Torpedoes were quite new in The Next Generation, and that's assuming the Defiant was designed to hold them ever since its creation. It's more likely they were introduced in DS9. Also, if they have to use other weapons to defeat these people, it proves that the main universe should be somewhat comparable.

I didn't mean they were literally using quantum torpedoes. I was just mentioning that torpedoes aren't reliant on the internal power of the firing ship. I said it because it's the only way I can see the Terran Empire managing to conquer powerful species like the Andorians with N-X class ships.

ByAsura · May 25, 2019

Ok. I'll remove the deflector thing, but I'm still keeping the energy fields.

Star Trek Enterprise Phaser Revision

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