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John Taylor vs Lucetta Quetzl

Arrogant_Schmuck

Arrogant_Schmuck

8,228
1,487
No idea if this is fair but I told MrKing I'd try

9-C Lucetta Quetzl (Perennial form but no 7-A business) vs 9-B John Taylor

Win via KO, incapacitation, or death. SPEED EQUALIZED

This is the part where I'd list AP but that doesn't exactly matter with how haxed these two are.
 
I'm gonna have to go with inconclusive here. I don't think John can properly put down Lucetta due to her abstract existence, and although his power null may work to temporarilly sever connections, the issue with favours is that unless Lucetta does something really ******* major to piss them off, the Gods will just regrant them the abilities since she has not expended the massive job she did for them which draws from the same principle as her type 8. Nullifying Lucetta's powers won't help because the gods themselves would have to be nullified. His higher dimensional manipulation won't work due to her resistences, and any lower forms of BFR that don't rely on that she can just teleport back from, assuming he could even effect her abstract form. This is not even mentioning her type 5 immortality

That being said, His probability manip is really ******* good. Unless I am not understanding it right, it sounds like a principle similar to Ashe's Golden Bullets, but able to be used in a defensive way. It may be speculation on my part, but I am fairly sure that Golden Bullets would be able to kill beings with divine favour via eliminating the futures where the gods choose to revive them. It should also make it so that it is impossible for her to put him down, via elminating those possibilities. Perhaps I am overhyping his probability manip, but I don't think she has a way around that.

Thus, I vote inconclusive. If I have missunderstood how his abilities work, please correct me
 
His higher dimensional BFR probably wouldn't work due to her resistence to higher dimensional manipulation. His normal BFR can be come back from with fetch mirrors. This is even assuming he could BFR a song to begin with
 
Iapitus The Impaler said:
That being said, His probability manip is really ******* good. Unless I am not understanding it right, it sounds like a principle similar to Ashe's Golden Bullets, but able to be used in a defensive way. It may be speculation on my part, but I am fairly sure that Golden Bullets would be able to kill beings with divine favour via eliminating the futures where the gods choose to revive them. It should also make it so that it is impossible for her to put him down, via elminating those possibilities. Perhaps I am overhyping his probability manip, but I don't think she has a way around that.
Click to expand...
No, you're right on the money. Granted, that wasn't exactly what he used it for in-series, but him being able to "blow out" possibilities is exactly what it sounds like:

from Paths Not Taken
So I reached deep inside my mind and powered up my gift, and found how unlikely it was that Eamonn 50 and Eamonn 60 should be there, in that place and in that time. And having found that tiny, precarious chance, it was the easiest thing in the world for me to blow it out like a candle. Both men vanished in a moment, because it was impossible for them to be there.
He also has a pair of chaos dice (basic 'probability changers') that can be used like this:

from Just Another Judgment Day
I took a pair of chaos dice from my coat pocket and rolled them back and forth in my hand, and just like that the flying horrors couldn't seem to find me.
(And no, this isn't invisibility, because the chaos dice don't work that way. He's quite literally negating the possibility of being found.)

Iapitus The Impaler said:
Thus, I vote inconclusive. If I have missunderstood how his abilities work, please correct me
Click to expand...
Actually, he has one application for his powers that may be relevant here. One time he came up against some sort of...well, she was made into what was quite literally "every sexual desire", and he managed to null that, turning her mortal again:

from Nightingale's Lament
She stretched slowly, voluptuous beyond reason. "Don't you want me, John? I can be anyone you ever wanted, and you can do things with me you wouldn't dare do with them. I live for pleasure, and my flesh is very accommodating."
"No." I made myself say it, even though the effort brought beads of sweat out on my face. I learned self-discipline early, just to stay alive. And I was used to not getting what I wanted. But it still took everything I had to stay where I was. "I need ... to talk to you, Sylvia. About the Cavendishes."

"Oh, I don't think about them any more. I don't care about the outside world. I have made my own little world here, and it is perfect. I never leave it. I glory in it. Have you come here to tell me of the Nightside? Is it still full of sin? How long has it been, since I came here?"

"Just over a year," I said, taking a step forward.

"Is that all? It feels like centuries to me. But then time passes so slowly, in Heaven and Hell."

I took another step forward. Her body called to my body, in a voice as old as the world. I knew it would cost me my life and my soul, and I didn't care. Except some small part of me, screaming deep within me, still did care. So I did the only thing I could do, to save myself. I called up my gift, my power, and looked at Sylvia Sin with my third eye, my private eye. I used my gift to find the woman she used to be, before the Cavendishes changed her, and brought her back.

Sylvia screamed, convulsing on the bed, her white flesh boiling and seething, then one shape snapped into focus, one body rising suddenly out of all the others, and the changes stopped. Sylvia lay on the bed, curled up into a ball, breathing hard. One woman, with flesh-coloured flesh and a pretty, ordinary face. I was breathing hard, too, like a man who'd just stepped back from the very brink of a cliff. The overpowering sexual pressure was gone from the room, though faint vestiges of its presence still lingered on the air. Sylvia sat up slowly on the bed, naked and normal, and looked at me with merely human eyes.

"What did you do? What have you done to me?"

"I've given you back yourself," I said. "You're free now. Entirely normal."
It's entirely possible he could do the exact same thing here, seeing as...well, yeah. It seems like it'd be the same situation almost to a tee.
 
Wait.

This is 9-C Lucetta?

Does she even have any of her good stuff in that key?
 
Going by the HABIT match she should have everything before the second divider in her abilities section in her 9-C version. I think Favor of the Unsanctioned Gods is still her 9-C key.

Of course Iap can correct me because I don't actually know for sure.
 
Well, anyway.

Assuming she has all the good stuff, how powerful are those gods backing her?
 
You have no idea. Really, you don't.

I really am curious about the nature of Lucetta's gods that're supporting her, though. Depending on what's said, he could potentially do something about that.
 
Physically? At least 7-A, but hax wise, they are higher dimensional. One of them is an even more abstract entity than Lucetta is when she is a song
 
Arrogant Schmuck said:
Going by the HABIT match she should have everything before the second divider in her abilities section in her 9-C version. I think Favor of the Unsanctioned Gods is still her 9-C key.
Of course Iap can correct me because I don't actually know for sure.
Click to expand...
She can. I have wanted to fix the keys up because they are confusing, but I have never gotten the chance. She can use all the powers of her favored form. The 7-A stat comes from an optional strength enhancement, but if we restrict that as she is in the lower key, then she is still capable of using all her other stuff
 
Well...

Depending on what they're capable of, he could potentially find the connection between her and the gods backing her and cut that off. Given what he's capable of, it's definitely not a stretch to say that he could do that, especially since he's done similar things like finding the connection between the Lamentation and its army and then severing that. And ripping out a higher-dimensional "taint" that had directly fused with Kid Cthulhu.

As for BFR, well, he's capable of reaching all the way into the setting's afterlife and affecting things in it with his powers, and said afterlife is confirmed at least once to be a higher space above every dimension in the setting. We don't know how many dimensions there are (yet), but it's...a lot. He could possibly BFR Lucetta past the point of coming back (unless her dimensional resistance is downright absurd), or send her gods packing to a higher or lower dimension as well.

There's also his ability to...well, just read this:

from Something From the Nightside
The nothing was replaced by something. An in-between place. I was standing on a bare plain that stretched out to infinity in all directions. It was a grey place, soft and hazy and indistinct. Not a real place, but real enough. A place to make a stand. Suzie and Cathy were there with me. Suzie was wearing silver armour, studded with vicious spikes. Cathy looked like she had in her old photo, only mad as hell now. I didn't look down to see how I appeared. It didn't matter. Not too far away there was another presence, too faint to be clearly seen, but I knew who it was. Who it had to be. We were all shining brightly now, luminous beings in a grey world. Together we formed a wide circle around a column of swirling darkness, shot with vivid blood-red traces, that towered endlessly up into the featureless sky. From it came the voice of the house, beating against us like hammer-blows, harsh and inhuman.
"Mine! Mine! Mine!"

But the gift was strong in me, and I just laughed at the voice. All it really had on its side was stealth and lies, and neither could serve the house here. I stepped forward, and Suzie and Cathy moved with me. The dark column actually shrank back from our light, shrinking and contracting away from us. We closed in, and the column became narrower. And all around us, on that wide and endless plain; hundreds and hundreds of insubstantial figures, standing silently, watching and hoping. All the house's victims. It hadn't just eaten their bodies; the damned thing had consumed their souls too, holding them within itself to power its unnatural existence. What was left of a woman called Joanna came forward, holding herself together despite everything the house could do to tear her apart and assimilate her, and again I felt her hand in mine. Through her I reached out to the other captive shades, silently offering them a chance for revenge, and the only freedom they could ever know now ... and they reached out to me.

Power surged through me, igniting my gift, and I blazed so very brightly as I advanced on the dark column before me. Suzie and Cathy and all the other victims advanced with me, and the house screamed and screamed. The column shrank and compacted, growing thinner and thinner, until finally I was able to join my shining hands with the trusting Suzie, the furious and betrayed Cathy, and the ghost of a woman I could have loved. We were all shining like suns now. I gathered together all our rage and hate and need, channeling all the many victims through my gift, and struck out at the dark heart of the thing that pretended to be a house. It howled once, with impotent horror, and then the dark swirling column was suddenly gone, and the voice of the house was stilled forever.

The other side of my gift. To find another's death.

I've never carried a gun. I don't need one.
also from Something From the Nightside
"Where were we?" she said abruptly. "The grey place. What was that?"
"The house was only vulnerable through its heart," I said, urging her towards the place in the wall where the door had been. "So, the house hid its heart in another place. Another dimension of reality, if you like. It's an old magical trick. But I can find anything."

"Are you sure it's dead?" said Suzie. "All the way, not coming back in the last reel, dead? I mean, it's still here, and we're still trapped inside it."

"It's dead," I said. "And from the smell and general state of things, I'd say its body is already starting to decay. It never really belonged in our world. Only its augmented will allowed it to survive here."
He doesn't have the benefit of having hundreds of disembodied souls to amp him even further here, but he doesn't really need it if Lucetta and the gods backing her aren't above 3-D. He did this against an Outsider (read: an immaterial, extradimensional cosmic horror), and those things are regularly treated as being extremely difficult to put down by normal means, even if you have something that can actually hurt them. Doing it against a 3-D being, even without the souls amping him, shouldn't be particularly difficult.

EDIT: This also happened after he'd been weakened to an absolutely massive degree thanks to overuse of his gift. Take that however you will.
 
After some consideration, I think I'll vote for John.

He has enough defensive powers, resistances and counter-abilities to survive at least long enough to do one of the things mentioned above, either to Lucetta herself or to the gods she's linked to/protected by. Even assuming he can't put her down permanently without doing something about the gods themselves, he could definitely take care of them within reason, either by "finding" their deaths and attacking them with those directly, cutting off any connections they have to Lucetta, or potentially even sending them away to higher/lower planes that are beyond their ability to return from. From there, it's just a matter of either stripping away her powers outright, reverting her to her mortal self prior to attaining any of what she got, or...just killing her with one of his more ridiculous hax powers, since her Type 8 immortality seems to be reliant on the gods backing her.

I wouldn't say it's impossible for Lucetta to win, but considering just how many protections, resistances and anti-powers he has that take care of many of her most threatening moves, I'd definitely say the fight is in his favor.
 
Weird...

So is there a major difference between her Perennial self and her Mortal self which changes...well, anything?
 
That's for her Perennial self, right?

Assuming Type 5 saves her from higher-D...well, lets just say hax in general, the only way John would be able to truly put her down at that point is if he used his gift to find the Speaking Gun and teleport it to his location in order to use on her. And that's a huge last resort as far as in-character actions are concerned. So it boils down to either Scenario 1, where John wins handily against her Mortal form, or Scenario 2, where John's only chance at actually beating her Perennial self involves doing something he's absolutely terrified to even attempt.

Of course, that's if Perennial!Lucetta resists being reset to a completely mortal human form by John's gift, and I'd need a little elaboration before I could say that for certain.
 
Well, in the case of the Perennial form, John would eventually resort to getting the Speaking Gun if nothing else could possibly kill her. The problem is that it's such a vile weapon that he would never even touch it unless a truly had no choice, so it's a matter of just how long it would take him to resort to that.

Of course, if he does eventually use it on her, she's not surviving no matter how many immortality types she has. But it's still dubious whether he'd use it particularly soon. Hell, the only way he'd even consider it an option is if there simply wasn't another way for him to get rid of her.
 
Oh, right. I should probably explain what the Speaking Gun does.

Everything that exists has a "true name" that composes the fundamental essence of its being. The Speaking Gun uses the echoes of God's voice which said "Let there be light!" to speak someone's (or something's) true name backwards, "uncreating" said thing down to its most fundamental level.

It's so powerful that it permanently destroys angels, who are currently 1-B and originate from Heaven. Which, again, is above every dimension in the setting. So...Tier 1 existence erasure.
 
Bump.

Just to clarify, if this is Lucetta's mortal form, I'm still voting for John.
 
Well, if that's the case, I should specify that while it would take a long time for him to finally do that, he will eventually go for it if he believes nothing else will work, like he tried to do when he had to go up against Lilith, and the time he almost used it against the Walking Man. So him using that will eventually happen; it's just a matter of whether or not he ends up going through a few of his different offensive options to no effect.

That said, I'm curious how good Lucetta's resistances are, and whether or not they can save her from being reset to a mortal form (read: a completely mortal form which lacks any of her powers or supernatural traits) or being sent to a higher dimension, or protect her from teleportation that's good enough to send sunlight from one universe to another.

Ultimately, I think I'm going to keep John as my vote. If she can't resist the above options, he's extremely likely to use one of them on her within a short timeframe, if not right away. And if she can, his many defensive abilities will probably let him last until he decides to teleport the Speaking Gun to his location and erase her beyond any hope of coming back.
 
I don't think the reversion will work. There are places and people that can wind time and states back, but in infinite possible futures, the only one where the perennial Ashen was hunting died was by his own hands, or a loophole of such
 
It's not the same as winding back time, though. In John's case, he's literally "finding" what you were before you had the supernatural stuff you have now, then forcing that on you, taking away everything you've got by changing your base nature as a being. The woman who existed as every possible sexual desire didn't just lose a few really disturbing powers; she lost everything she was and became a nomal woman again.

If you want to argue possibilities and possible futures, there's also the fact that John's mere existence and actions are confirmed to change not only his own future, but the futures of everyone and everything around him. To the point that a singular future that was forcibly superceding an infinity of possible futures was negated just by John working against it.
 
[after actually rereading what I just had to type]

Welpface
This is the kind of shit that's going to make people on this wiki want to kill me.
 
MrKingOfNegativity said:
I'm not familiar with that, so you're going to have to be more specific.
Click to expand...
basically this

  • The Thirteenth Movement of the Cosmos - Outline Origin: Reverts a target back to his/her original form in the story, thus eliminating any powers or forms the target did not have at the beginning.
both achieve the same thing with different powers
 
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