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Sans vs Asgore
- Thread starter Kiryu2012
- Start date
- Status
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Seems like Asgore has some blood on his hands, so KR may be slightly effective.
But given Asgore's lacks of potent hax and that Asgore wouldn't likely to be much effective in killing an innocent, I'll go with Sans.
But given Asgore's lacks of potent hax and that Asgore wouldn't likely to be much effective in killing an innocent, I'll go with Sans.
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If they are in character, neither would go all out, as Sans is too lazy, and Asgore is too nice. Even if they are willing to kill. Inconclusive for that one reason. If I HAD to choose, I'd go with Sans due to instantaneous attacks according to his page.
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It would be surprisingly close, but if he's willing to fight at all, Sans would take this.
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Asgore. Sans is the weakest enemy in the game, and Asgore has never actually killed anyone. Asgore is the strongest monster in the underground, and is holding back a considerable amount during his battle with you, and Sans is only hard because he's cheating the game system.
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Sans still does 20 damage a second due to his 1 damage per frame thing. Asgore, based on the numbers from his fight, has about 3,400 to 3,500 health, most likely exactly 3,470. This means that Sans would take about 174 seconds to kill Asgore. Sans' speed is equatable to Chara's, and on average it takes 5 minutes to kill Asgore, which is likely how long Sans would be able to dodge (Big assumptions here). Asgore is unable to dodge Sans' attacks, and thus Sans would have to dodge for 174 seconds. Personally, it's not that hard to dodge Asgore's attacks. Most of them involve moving side to side and don't require much input and most mistakes are simply based on bad-luck. Sans can also teleport out of the way, and his hacks would probably allow him to win.
I'm voting Sans here.
I'm voting Sans here.
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Asgore has killed people. 6 humans.
Human souls would grant far more LOVE than Monsters.
Human souls would grant far more LOVE than Monsters.
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I'm voting Sans.
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It's implied that none of the children who fell into the Underground actually made it to Asgore.Sirius The EM Troll said:
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When? Toriel says *ASGORE* specifically will kill you.
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Those same game physics don't apply to an actual battle. Sans is just literally dodging, and giving a middle finger to the battle system to troll you. If Monsters were capable of dodging, it quite likely they would instead of just taking every single hit. Sans wouldn't be able to dodge forever, and avoiding a knife doesn't equate to Asgore who is obviously a great deal larger, and using attacks that cover a farther range of attack. Even if you take that into consideration, we'd be using them with the will to fight, which would mean Asgore would likely have more health than usual, if we go by the entries from the library. Sans is only op against Chara, there's not much he can do against other monsters, and his title is proof in itself. "The weakest enemy in the game".Kevinyang1 said:
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If all game mechanics are removed, then Sans could tank every single one of Asgore's blows since bone is extremely heat resistant, and the blasters would act like energy beams and easily kill someone with the constituency of a goat and the size of a large human.XXBeerusTheDestroyerXx said:
Also, if Asgore was determined (But not in the DETERMINATION way), he would have higher defence, not higher health, and Sans does 1 damage per frame which ignores defence. Also, Sans is easily capable of dodging flames which on average, based on pixel count move significantly slower than the knife attack, which is both spontaneous and always directed at exactly where the monster is, as opposed to fire which is calculatable and dodgeable.
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There's... Nothing saying that he is extremely heat resistant. That wouldn't even matter anyways, his flames aren't normal, they're magical.
Once again game mechanics don't really apply here. His trident is also a factor here, it once again, covers a much wider range than a knife. He only needs a single hit to win, unlike Sans.
Once again game mechanics don't really apply here. His trident is also a factor here, it once again, covers a much wider range than a knife. He only needs a single hit to win, unlike Sans.
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Bone has about a melting temperature of 1670 degrees Celsius. Also, magical flames would make it "not flames" and thus it could be argued that it doesn't even do damage since it's illusory or magical? I'm quite sure Sans' blasters could easily negate the flames anyways.XXBeerusTheDestroyerXx said:
The trident is probably going to have a hard time killing a damn skeleton unless it's swept sideways in which case stepping backwards is going to be pretty easy considering historical use of a trident is either through stabbing or extremely slow and clumsy sweeping which would leave Asgore open to a counterattack that could easily go through his armour, which is implied to be mostly ornamental anyways.
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Asgore, however isn't a human, and his Trident obviously isn't normal in nature. It, just like every other monster, and monster related artifact, is likely made of magic. He's shown to wield it quite fast in battle.
Sans is going to die regardless of whether "bone has a melting temperature of 1670 Celsius" or not, he's not a normal skeleton at all, he's a monster made of magic, so that doesn't apply to him. Not only is he a monster, but he's also the most fragile one shown.
Sans can dodge, but the extent of such is unknown, considering he's been killed by Flowey multiple times, he's definitely not impossible to hit, and without any Karma based damage to do on Asgore, there's not really much he's going to do. There's a reason Sans waits until the end to fight Frisk, and it's so that Karma will build up, thus giving him an easy way to kill Frisk.
That being said, if morals are on there's no clear indication on who would win. I don't believe that even if they were both out to kill each other, they'd go all out. Sans is a slacker, and he only tried because the timeline was at stake, even then during the battle he said he was having a hard time actually trying. Asgore on the other hand just has a hard time killing in general, When you confront him in Genocide, he doesn't even try to fight you, and gets struck down. Going by Neutral though, he's definitely capable of killing you but he holds back a great deal. This is proven further by the fact no matter what, you won't die by his moves unless you're at 1hp. Fortunately for Asgore here he only needs one hit. Though I think this is a silly battle, because they're probably friends, and the fact they're both from the same series. Usually don't get too many of those in here.
Sans is going to die regardless of whether "bone has a melting temperature of 1670 Celsius" or not, he's not a normal skeleton at all, he's a monster made of magic, so that doesn't apply to him. Not only is he a monster, but he's also the most fragile one shown.
Sans can dodge, but the extent of such is unknown, considering he's been killed by Flowey multiple times, he's definitely not impossible to hit, and without any Karma based damage to do on Asgore, there's not really much he's going to do. There's a reason Sans waits until the end to fight Frisk, and it's so that Karma will build up, thus giving him an easy way to kill Frisk.
That being said, if morals are on there's no clear indication on who would win. I don't believe that even if they were both out to kill each other, they'd go all out. Sans is a slacker, and he only tried because the timeline was at stake, even then during the battle he said he was having a hard time actually trying. Asgore on the other hand just has a hard time killing in general, When you confront him in Genocide, he doesn't even try to fight you, and gets struck down. Going by Neutral though, he's definitely capable of killing you but he holds back a great deal. This is proven further by the fact no matter what, you won't die by his moves unless you're at 1hp. Fortunately for Asgore here he only needs one hit. Though I think this is a silly battle, because they're probably friends, and the fact they're both from the same series. Usually don't get too many of those in here.
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Sans is implied to have never been killed by Flowey, and Flowey also says that they never got past Asgore.
"Smiley Trashbag..."
"Say, if I have one piece of advice for you,"
"DON'T"
"Let him find out ANYTHING about you."
"He'll..."
"Well..."
"Let's just say."
"He's caused more than my fair share of RESETs." (Sans)
And
"Without you, I could have never gotten past that old fool!" (Asgore)
"Smiley Trashbag..."
"Say, if I have one piece of advice for you,"
"DON'T"
"Let him find out ANYTHING about you."
"He'll..."
"Well..."
"Let's just say."
"He's caused more than my fair share of RESETs." (Sans)
And
"Without you, I could have never gotten past that old fool!" (Asgore)
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No, Flowey definitely has killed Sans and Asgore in the past, or at least he claims to have done so and, given how far into madness his boredom has driven him, I don't doubt it. "I've appeased everyone. I've killed everyone."Kevinyang1 said:
The real question is what he meant by "gotten past". Also Sans causes a lot of players more than their fair share of resets, but they can skill kill him.
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Preaplanes1 said:
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Yes, flowey has killed sans before, multiple times most likely, however "hes given me more then my fair share of resets" implies that sans killed flowey multiple times too, and floweys abilility to keep resetting and coming back is what allowed him to eventually win
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Sans has dealt with a far more ruthless opponent than Asgore, he has a very serious HAX advantage, is considerably faster (can actually dodge a hit from Chara), and can just have his turn not end (keeping them there forever).
Sans should take this.
Sans should take this.
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Asgore has killed 6 human children repeatedly until their determination ran out and they lose the ability to reload (We know this almost certainly happened. Toriel feels like the other human children have been with her forever, even though chronologically she's only just met them. And Asgore doesn't seem surprised and even seem resigned when Frisk tells him they have died from his hands multiple times), and he wasn't even applying himself. Remember, those were human children, the same as Frisk.Pokémon Trainer Jacob said:
Sans couldn't dodge any hit from Chara the ghost. What he did was dodging exactly 22 hits from either a 10 year old, or a homicidal ghost possessing the body of a 10 year old before going out of breath. It is a stretch to imagine him dodging Asgore's Touhou-esque fireball barrage for half as long. Also considering that Asgore was on the brink of suicide in his fight with Frisk, and how he is unlikely to feel that despondent when squaring off against Sans, it's safe to assume his attacks won't be that forgiving.
In any events where Sans has to resort to stalling indefinitely, it should be considered a tie with a substantial lean in Asgore's advantage. If it actually worked.
Which HAX were you talking about? The in-menu bone that depletes your health out-of-turn? The mid fight teleportation? Seeing how he is likely to be much faster than Frisk, it's dubious how effective they will be. But I will concede that his bulky frame will be a problem.
Asgore in his fight had 3500 HP, which means if he is at LV 20 already Sans would have to hit him for almost two minutes non-stop to finish him off.
What we saw in-game was Sans at his most desperate to win, and Asgore at his most desperate to lose. We probably know all that Sans has in his sleeves, at least when it comes to one-on-one combat. Assuming Asgore doesn't have any HAX himself (Healing magic? Shattering the Fight button? Completely engulfing an entire room in flame?), who's to say he won't have twice, thrice or ten times the amount of HP, AT and DF this time?
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Sans is able to kill chara several times while he is at level 19 (you ahve to be a perfectionist to not die to him at least once)
Asgore doesn't even get a chance to attack and dies in one shot to a level 20 chara.
Put simply sans both has more potentail AP. and many. many game mechanic breaking haxs that would make him win this fight.
Asgore doesn't even get a chance to attack and dies in one shot to a level 20 chara.
Put simply sans both has more potentail AP. and many. many game mechanic breaking haxs that would make him win this fight.
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Okay, for the first part, Sans is able to do so in his fight, because he dodges the extremly simple attacks of his opponent. In that same fight, he only managed to dodge those simple attacks 6 times before showing signs of fatigue (possibly due to his extensive turns and constant assault). He dodges around 13 times before he uses his "special" attack, and one last time before Chara cheats the system and attacks him while he talks.Typhlosion130 said:
My argument for Asgore is that he'd last long enough to get a decent hit on sans, seeing as Asgore's attacks are much more complicated and numerous in comparison to one slash every turn, the fact that he has around 3500 HP, and can also dodge (Undyne said it herself, though I don't know if he's as skilled as Frisk or Chara. It should be noted that he had to teach Undyne how to hit him, though...as well as the fact that she was a kid at the time). Yes, Sans has his Karmic Retribution, but that really doesn't do as much as I initially thought when I first looked at Sans' battle. He can take down a person who doesn't know what they're in for in one turn, but at the same time, they have less than 100 HP, and the delayed damage slows down as it reaches its end.
Of course, most of this is game mechanics, but...Yeah, for now I vote for Asgore.
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WHich is my point. SANS CAN DODGE. asgore cannot. and asgore has killed some humans giving him some LV. so KR will be there.Otomos said:
Secondly. Sans has a lot of game mechanic hax that asgore simply does not have. Including yes his special attack.
Somethign else to note. Asgore can't heal. And sans' attacks will not care about armor due to how they work.
And sans can teleport. while not used for dodging in battle as we can see. Its fairly clear he can use it in battle to cause un avoidable situations.
And finnally. again asgore doesn't dodge... you don't realize how much damage sans can hit you with on any of his moves if all the damage hits do you? he'll have asgore dead real fast.
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Oh geez, I'm not quoting all that again. It's a headache for everyone.
Anyway, what you're going off of is purely game mechanics, rather than what's been given. Asgore CAN dodge, but refused to do so against Frisk when they fought, and didn't even get the chance to finish his sentence when Chara showed up. Sans dodged SINGLE attacks, rather than multiple consecutive attacks/projectiles like Asgore uses. Sans has never been shown to dodge that many attacks simultaneously, nor has it been mentioned that he had the capability to.
Even if we go completely into game mechanics, then even the Karmic retribution doesn't work all that well, as Sans' attacks don't immediately kill anyone. Even when the attacks are constantly damaging his opponent's HP, it takes a few seconds for the damage to drop it down to one, where it can actually finish off the enemy. Once again, this is when he faces an opponent that has less than 100 HP. Asgore has over 3000 HP, so it'd take longer for him to go down. Long enough for him to take his own turn, and hit Sans.
About Sans' teleportation, that's a bit more difficult to discuss, as it's not instant. Still, I'm willing to try. In-game, it only goes far distances when Sans is not seen by the player. That is to say, it really only works when his sprite is completely concealed. This holds true for his battle as well, since everytime he changes location onscreen his sprite either moves offscreen, or the screen blacks out for a moment. Also, in-battle, Sans could only move so far, and has to remain in front of his opponent's sight. We cannot simply assume that he can use it to escape anything in-battle.
Anyway, what you're going off of is purely game mechanics, rather than what's been given. Asgore CAN dodge, but refused to do so against Frisk when they fought, and didn't even get the chance to finish his sentence when Chara showed up. Sans dodged SINGLE attacks, rather than multiple consecutive attacks/projectiles like Asgore uses. Sans has never been shown to dodge that many attacks simultaneously, nor has it been mentioned that he had the capability to.
Even if we go completely into game mechanics, then even the Karmic retribution doesn't work all that well, as Sans' attacks don't immediately kill anyone. Even when the attacks are constantly damaging his opponent's HP, it takes a few seconds for the damage to drop it down to one, where it can actually finish off the enemy. Once again, this is when he faces an opponent that has less than 100 HP. Asgore has over 3000 HP, so it'd take longer for him to go down. Long enough for him to take his own turn, and hit Sans.
About Sans' teleportation, that's a bit more difficult to discuss, as it's not instant. Still, I'm willing to try. In-game, it only goes far distances when Sans is not seen by the player. That is to say, it really only works when his sprite is completely concealed. This holds true for his battle as well, since everytime he changes location onscreen his sprite either moves offscreen, or the screen blacks out for a moment. Also, in-battle, Sans could only move so far, and has to remain in front of his opponent's sight. We cannot simply assume that he can use it to escape anything in-battle.
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How exactly do you know that? There are exactly one point that strongly suggests he can (Undyne's story of her first fight with Asgore), and one very weak point that suggest he can't (his not dodging Frisk's attacks in-game, which can very arguably be interpreted as him wanting to give the human a fighting chance).Typhlosion130 said:
How fast he can dodge is another matter entirely. I'm more curious as to what makes you think he straight up can't dodge at all.
His special attack? The one that the Mad Dummy used? See the point I made above about it turning a fight into a draw at best.Typhlosion130 said:
Be very careful when you bring up HAXes and whatnots, because then you'll have to take into account the HAX Asgore has that Sans doesn't. We have absolutely no idea how Sans would deal woth Asgore's breaking the in-game menu. We don't even know if Sans' trickeries are bona fide HAX or just some creative in-game interpretation of his fighting dirty. Bringing that up would only cause more confusion.
Regardless, if a human child can get through all of Sans' apparent HAXes with a little bit of sweat, there's nothing to indicate the King of all Monsters can't. It would take something much, much more than clever tricks to get through that sheer mountain of brute strength.
When was the last time you see Sans' turn lasting for two minutes non-stop?Typhlosion130 said:
Actually, yes it does. Refer to this blog post for more info: http://uselessundertalefacts.tumblr.../oh-and-back-to-papyruss-invincibility-framesTyphlosion130 said:
There are also two Youtube videos where you can compare the different rates of KR draining side by side, but I'll get on to that later.
I'll also second everything Otomos said above.
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My vote is for Sans
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Sans has a massive KR advantadge because Asgore killed the humans so many times they ran out of determination, and human souls should give more EXP than monster souls, based on soul power. Sans wins easily.
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I hope you read the rest of the posts first, because it's been proven via videos that KR doesn't do instant death, and Asgore has much more HP than the player does in their battle. What does this mean? It means that Asgore would be able to outlast the damage, and take his own turn. Since on his turns, Asgore throws in a barrage of attacks, Sans wouldn't be able to dodge them.MegalovaniaBonetrousle said:
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Given Sans's ability to dodge chara, who has roughly the same speed as Asgore, sans can dodge Asgore as easily as he dodges chara. KR does 40 damage per second on LV 19 chara, which can kill Asgore in 87 seconds, plus KR kill time, if it is assumed he is also level 19 from killing the 6 humans, running their determination down, and capturing their souls. Also, the great war between humans and monsters would imply that super-powerful monsters like Asgore have killed many humans. If he is assumed to be level 30, and KR doesn't scale exponentially, Sans does enough damage to kill by KR in under a minute, and any more damage would just reduce the time KR takes to finish him.
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Again. Asgore would have dodged chara/frisk if he could. HIs ability to dodge is hinted at. but that is against undyne who has a much easier battle than asgore and sans. As well Undyne was less experienced then than she is now so it was THAT much easier to do so.
Put simply. asgore won't be able to dodge sans's attacks. But sans has plenty of hax and teleporting that would let him do so in return.
Put simply. asgore won't be able to dodge sans's attacks. But sans has plenty of hax and teleporting that would let him do so in return.
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First things first. Sans does have the ability to dodge Chara. The problem with that in relation to this match-up, as stated several times before, is that Sans is never stated or shown to dodge more than one attack at a time. Given that Chara's attacks are singular and distributes damage upon contact, then Sans' dodging isn't really all that great. Not only that, Asgore's attacks are much more complicated than a single slice from a knife, or any barrage of punches and gunshots that are concentrated within a small area. Asgore's attacks are much more difficult to dodge than anything the player and Chara can do, and much larger range. A range that's much too large for Sans to simply sidestep or teleport away from.MegalovaniaBonetrousle said:
Not only that, you're making the assumption that Asgore wouldn't also dodge the attacks that Sans sends his way, even though it's canon (via Undyne dialogue) that he has the capability to do so, and with his speed being able to keep up with Frisk's, then it should be no problem to dodge enough to last until his own turn.
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He can easily teleport/tunnel away. Also, Frisk/Chara can dodge some of Asgore's attacks, and Asgore relies on blue/orange attacks, which Sans knows in and out. So many of Asgore's attacks he doesn't eeven have to put much effort to dodge, and he can teleport away from the rest of them.
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