The 3-A Triforce: Part 2

Continuation of this thread. As Dark said, we needed a new thread. And despite what Matt said, it was going somewhere. I'll use "=" to indicate that two things have the same size in this thread.

Manipulating the Dark World
"µÀÀµ▓îÒü«Õ£░ÒÇÇÒâÅÒéñÒâ®Òâ½Òü½ Ú╗äÚçæÒü«õ©ëÕñºþÑ×ÒÇüÚÖìÞç¿ÒüÖÒÇé Three great golden goddesses descended to the land of chaos that was Hyrule." -Deku Tree

Here it's stated that Hyrule = Chaos, and as Matthew said in an another thread:

"If they predate time and are said to have created the world out of chaos, then it is pretty obvious that they created the universe.

Like, this is basic creation-myth stuff."

"It says they made the world from Chaos. In other words, they created the universe."

"Creation Myths use metaphors like Primordial Waters, Chaotic Lakes, Abyssal Seas to convey a state of shapeless and endless chaos, from which the world was ordered."

"In a Creation Myth context, The Goddesses creating the world from Chaos, specially in conjunction to the statement that they predate time itself, means that they formed the universe from a primordial state of chaos."

"The Chaos here is the typical chaos of Creation Myths, a formless state before the universe was created and / or ordered."

Given that Hyrule = Chaos, and that the Chaos became the universe, that means that Universe = Chaos = Hyrule. Like, what's even the point of stating that Chaos = Hyrule otherwise?

"ÒüùÒüïÒüùÒé¼ÒâÄÒâ│Òü»ÒüØÒéîÒüáÒüæÒüºµ║ÇÞÂ│ÒüøÒüÜÒÇü『ÕàëÒü«õ©ûþòî』ÒÇüÒâÅÒéñÒâ®Òâ½ÒéÆÒééµêæÒüîþë®Òü½ÒüùÒéêÒüåÒü¿õ╝üÒéôÒüºÒüäÒéïÒü«ÒüºÒüÖÒÇé But Ganon isn't satisfied, so he proceeded to rule the "light world", Hyrule." -ALTTP manual

Here we can see that Light World = Hyrule. Across the series, Hyrule has been used to describe only the kingdom and as the dimension the main games take place, as we see with statements that states that Termina or the Twilight Realm mirror Hyrule, clearly not the kingdom because Termina even mirrors constellations. And the Light World falls in the second category as, well, it's a "world". Despite being a rather loose term, it certainly doesn't mean kingdom. But more importantly...

"It (the Dark World) mirrors the Light World" -Hyrule Historia

The Light World = Dark World, which has a sun in it and as such it has at bare minimum an Sun-Earth radius, and the kingdom of Hyrule isn't that big. As such, Hyrule = Universe must be referred to the second use of the word "Hyrule", which would scale to the size of the Dark World.

The Full Triforce, warping the Sacred Realm, created the Dark World.

TL;DR: Universe = Chaos = Hyrule = Light World = Dark World. The Triforce can completely manipulate an universe.

Sustains the "World"
"ÒüôÒü«Õ¥îÒÇüÒüØÒü«ÒÇÇÞüûõ©ëÞºÆÒéÆ õ©ûÒü«þÉåÒü«ÒÇÇþñÄÒü¿ÒüÖÒéïÒééÒü«Òü¬Òéè" From here, Deku Tree describing the creation of the Zelda verse.

This means: "ÔÇ¿After that, those sacred triangles became the cornerstone for the world's þÉå".

Don't let the use of the word "world" to fool you, as he's using this term as a contrast between the start of the creation when there was no "þÉå" in the "world", AKA tipical primordial chaos from every creation myth ever.

"õ©ûÒü½ÒÇÇþÉåÒü¬ÒüÅÒÇüÕ梵£¬ÒüáÒÇÇÕ¢óÒü¬ÒüòÒüÜ"

"ÔÇ¿When there was no þÉå in the world and life did not yet have form."

So, what does "þÉå" mean? According to this dictionary, it can mean:

1. reason; principle; logic

2. (Buddh) general principle (as opposed to individual concrete phenomenon) ÔåÆRelated words: õ║ï

3. (in neo-Confucianism) the underlying principles of the cosmos

We can already rule out the first meaning, as here we're clearly in a "religious" context, and the other two simply are much more probable given that TF has never been associated with "logic" or "reason". I've asked Shiro what could have it been, and he answered the third. It's also extremely consistent with ALBW.

It Sustains Lorule
This is also partially connected to the first thing. Given that Hyrule = Universe, but also Hyrule = Lorule.

"Transform into a living painting and slip between Hyrule and a dark, parallel dimension." -Zelda official web page

"Let's talk about this country for a bit. Long ago, there was a triangle that if touched, grants any wishes in Lorule. It's called Triforce. People fought over for this power, resulting in kingdom's collapse. The kingdom of Lorule, to stop this, destroyed the Triforce. But it backfired..... Triforce is a power of God. It's existence is the pillar of the world, holding it. With Lorule, not having the pillar, is destined to collapse. This land needs Triforce."

She says she wants to talk about the country of Lorule, so she starts telling about the Triforce, which was in Lorule (not kingdom), as it was in Lorule's Sacred Realm. The people of the country fought over it, and their fight caused the ruin of the kingdom. Again, she states that the kingdom (more exactly, the royals) destroyed it. The word "World" is used very loosely in the Zelda verse, that much I'll admit, but it can be easily understood by context. For example, here it refers to Lorule, made obvious by the whole "pillar" thing. Lastly she says that "Lorule" would collapse. Do I need to explain what does she mean with "Lorule" after this long explanation?

Supporting statement
…ÒüôÒéîÒü»ÒüéÒü¬Òüƒµû╣õ║║ÚûôÒü½ÒéêÒüúÒüªÞ¬×ÒéïþÂÖÒüîÒéîÒüƒþë®Þ¬×…

...This is a story you humans have passed down by word of mouth...

…ÒüØÒéîÒü»þ®║ÕëìÒü½ÒüùÒüªþÁÂÕ¥îÒü«µ┐ÇÒüùÒüŵüÉÒéìÒüùÒüäµêªÒüºÒüùÒüƒ…

...it was an unprecedented violently horrible battle...

þ¬üÕªéÕ£░ÒéÆÕë▓ÒéèÒüØÒü«Õº┐ÒéÆþÅ¥ÒüùÒüƒÚ鬵é¬Òü¬ÒéïÕ¡ÿÕ£¿…

Suddenly, the ground broke open and there appeared evil figures

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They removed the smiles from the those in the land

Ú鬵é¬Òü¬ÒéïÞÇàÚüöÒü»µú«ÒéÆþä╝Òüìµ│ëÒéƵ׻ÒéëÒüùõ║║ÒéƵ«║ÒéüþÂÜÒüæÒü¥ÒüùÒüƒ

The evil ones burnt the forests, dried the springs, and killed the people

Õ¢╝ÒéëÒü«þø«þÜäÒü»ÒüéÒü«Õ¥íµû╣Òüî…ÕÑ│þÑ×µºÿÒüîÕ«êÒéèÒüùõ©çÞâ¢Òü«Õèø

Their purpose was for the one...the goddess-sama who protected the universal power

õ©çÞâ¢Òü«Õèø…ÒüØÒéîÒü»

The universal power...that was

Õà¿ÒüªÒü«ÚíÿÒüäÒéÆÕà¿ÒüªÒü«µ¼▓µ£øÒéÆÕÅÂÒüêÒüùþÑ×ÒÇàÒüïÒéëÒü«Úü║þöú

A legacy come from the gods, it fulfills all wishes and all desires

Õñ¬ÕÅñÒü«þÑûÒéêÒéèÕÑ│þÑ×µºÿÒüîÕÅùÒüæÒüÄÒüùþ®ÂµÑÁÒü«Õèø…

The ancient goddess-sama received the ultimate power...

ÕÑ│þÑ×µºÿÒü»Ú鬵é¬Òü¬ÞÇàÒüïÒéëõ©çÞâ¢Òü«ÕèøÒéÆÕ«êÒéïþé║

The goddess-sama protected the universal power from the evil ones.

Conclusion
The Triforce is able to complete warp the an universe sized realm, sustains an another one and recreated an another Triforce which could sustain yet an another universe.

This isn't an outlier as it scales only to the Triforce which is constantly stated to be far above the rest of the characters.

Reposting this just in case So first of all the feat in question I will be presenting is not an outlier as it has happened more than once, let's just look at what exactly I am talking about.

It is stated many times that the Dark World or the Sacred realm is a full universe, for example this first describes it as a counterpart to the Light word, which we know is a Universe, to top it off I found a scan saying it's a sort of second Hyrule, which again supports the fct that it is the same in size as the light world, which if you ask me should have been an established fact, as considering the dark world any different in size is ludicrous.



There is another interesting feat I found that I bet not many have discovered or at least thought of

https://youtu.be/e9KZOChSxvU?t=218

Just here Agahnim has sent Link in to the dark world, However there is something very interesting with this feat, You see, Link did not just end somewhere in the dark world. He ended up in the EXACT SAME SPOT as the location of the LIGHT WORLD


Here is a map to help you with visualising this. So as you know, Link whooped Agahnim at the top of the Hyrule Castle in some room behind Zelda's or someone's bedroom it don't matter, what matters is it was the top of Hyrule castle, or at leas the upper area. And where exactly does Link end up after geting sent into the dark world? The PYRAMID OF POWER. the top middle area of Dark world, just as Light world is the top middle area of Light world. This means Agahnim literally switched the world to make him end up in the same position that would be located in the light world.


Here is yet another scan that outright says lorule / dark world whatever you want to call it, mirros Light world, is an inverse to it. This is quite convincing, it gives a pretty good clarification, unless you want to argue the light world, the main universe where all of this happens is just some planet sized dimension which is just laughable.


And who could forget Ganon's voice reaching Across space and time

NOW FOR THE FEATZ

Anyone trying to pull the "Statements ain't gonna cut it, bring feats" Thing I'll have you know there are at least 3 legit feats considering the dark world a universe. Also considering the goddeses are low multiversal, then a universal triforce really does fit a description of the small portion.

For anyone trying to say "But he only warped a planet and some stars". Nah bruh, it been clearly stated he wapred the world, Now I've already explained above why it's a universe so there goes it.

basically explaining what Ganon wished for, restoring his mess

This the second time he restored the other world

ADDED CONTENT!

So for those who might also wonder if the Dark world simply mirrors light world, that is false for the following reasons. First of all it's mentioned as it's own overworld and a parallel one. Now the reason it mirrors Hyrule or Light world is simple, Ganon had one wish, he wanted to conquer the light world, but for the sake of plot he did not conquer it, he simply warped the sacred realm, who before that has never been mentioned to mirror light world in any way and has always been and is it's separate world. It was Ganon's desire to conquer the light world but ended up turning the sacred realm into his own twisted version of it. It's for this reason that they share such similarities.


So there you have it, this should quite prove the point

Update 1

"Lorule was just like Hyrule. So very beautiful. So very...promising."


"Yuga discovered that there was a strange crack in this grim slate... Through it, we could sense that there was another world beyond ours... a place where the Triforce still existed. He and I devised the scheme that imperiled your kingdom. But I alone will set this right."


Just updated this with something fresh. Basically another feat proving Triforce indeed does have universal power. Lorule is essentially a different world altogether, it has it's own sacred realm (see the third scan) and is it's own thing altogether. One could say it is just hyrule and SR copy pasted and changed.

And basically the entire plot of ALBW is you uniting the original triforce to restore loruelan triforce because the latter literally kept the world in balance.

Update 2


Hyrule Historia stating again that they mirror each other (this is directly translated from Japanese)

First, even without all the scans stating that, it's pretty obvious that the reason they're called LIGHT and DARK World, is exactly to show that they're the same and opposite thing, as shown again by the geography and the overall concept of the two overworlds. Scans are obviously needed, but I think that what has been brought up is more than enough to prove this already implied connection.

Second, if it says that the Triforce warped the Sacred Realm/ Dark World, it means just that. If I say that I painted my room, it means that I painted the walls of my room, not just one or two. If a character is stated to be capable of destroying a wall, we don't say he can only destroy some bricks, if there's nothing else implying otherwise, obviously. So if the TF is stated to warp the Sacred Realm, we don't need to post things stating that it warped the whole thing, that's already implied in the first sentence.

-props to TriforcePower1

The only thing i saw in this thread which i'am agree is that Chaos is obviously not Hyrule

The rest IDK

I agree with SomebodyData from the last thread when he said this,

"If I remember correctly, Hyrule is used interchangeably with the kingdom, continent, planet, and universe, so going off the high-end seems disingenuous."

Using an instance when Hyrule was said as the Universe from one game, and then using to upgrade the Triforce because the Triforce warped the Sacred Realm/Dark World in ALTTP seems wrong to me.

The Light World in A Link to the Past was implied to be nothing more than a country or a planet at most, as seen by this quote:

"There are two overworlds in A Link to the Past. The Light World that Link calls home is a colorful and abundant place, with green forests, arid bluffs, and crystal-blue waters. In the Dark World that mirrors the Light World, the terrain is much the same, but everything is cast in a somber hue."

No, Hyrule is only the kingdom and the Light World. These are the only two meanings it has.

Where is that from? Hyrule Encyclopedia is not canon.

Hyrule Encyclopedia is indeed Canon, however things that go directly against the lore established points are not

Like in the last thread I agree with the upgrade.

Boogie boogie.

~~

@Konaguna There's no reason to post the OP here when it's linked in the OP

@Triforce

Aight

I've updated the OP with new stuff.

All of this seems sufficient to me, I definitely don't see 3-A TF as an impossibility, it just makes the TF wielders a lot more impressive.

I don't believe it.

Like last i agree but @TP1 i thought you were working on a 4-A TF?

I do and it's basically finished. I'll post it some time after this gets concluded.

TriforcePower1 said:

I do and it's basically finished. I'll post it some time after this gets concluded.

Click to expand...

Are you implying this thread will already fail?

No, the 4-A feats would scale to other characters, so even if this succeeds, posting that would still be useful.

Alright, can we please focus on the 3-A stuff first tho?

Konaguna said:

Alright, can we please focus on the 3-A stuff first tho?

Click to expand...

I agree already but now we have to gun down the wolves also are all your answers ready for their counter arguments

Lowkey the TF should have law manip since it is supporting the law ordee and balance of the loz universe plus space and time.

Small bump

TriforcePower1 said:

Small bump

Click to expand...

Weaaaaak, do a larger bump next time.

Azzy is going to comment here in around 5 hours, so if anyone wants to add anything to the OP, tell me on my wall in order to avoid this thread from becoming messy.

Unless I'm missing something, I'm not really seeing where the issue from the last thread is solved.

Based on the context of the first quote, it can be assumed to mean the Goddesses created the universe (even though it doesn't actually say universe, I don't think this is an unreasonable stance for this particular quote). The issue, however, stems from the fact that none of the other quotes are part of this creation myth. They're entirely separate. Even if Hyrule is referred to directly as a universe in one quote (which it actually isn't, in this case), not every piece of text talking about it treats it as such. Assuming that would just be flat-out untrue, since there is explicit evidence of the opposite.

As mentioned in the other thread, I do not think the idea of the Triforce supporting the universe is itself entirely unreasonable, but I do not believe this to be a display of universe level AP. We see an alternate universe whose Triforce is destroyed, and while the world begins to crumble, it's still fine and habitable (albeit filled with horrible monsters) after actual generations. There is no immediate process of "Triforce is destroyed, universe explodes".

In the other thread, I said this:

"Again, if we're going to say that the Triforce has universe level power, can we can a single direct feat/ statement without these nebulous terms?"

The closest we have is a creation myth (reasonably interpreted as the creation of the universe, but even then not flat out stated) that could be used to justify the Goddesses having universe level AP (which we already accept and scale them beyond).

So, which part of this are you questioning exactly?

Universe = Chaos = Hyrule = Light World = Dark World

TriforcePower1 said:

So, which part of this are you questioning exactly?

Universe = Chaos = Hyrule = Light World = Dark World

Click to expand...

99% of this is based on speculation with unclear statements.

TriforcePower1 said:

So, which part of this are you questioning exactly?
Universe = Chaos = Hyrule = Light World = Dark World

Click to expand...

I am questioning this being a universal truth and not something that very clearly changes depending on the conversation.

Also:

"This isn't an outlier as it scales only to the Triforce which is constantly stated to be far above the rest of the characters."

I am questioning this being a universal truth and not something that very clearly changes depending on the conversation.

So, what you're saying is that you don't think that the Hyrule mentioned in the myth is the same as the one who's stated to be = to the Light World. Hyrule getting several different meanings depending on the context basically negates the need to use a single word to describe all of them, but still. So, please answer this question: If the Deku Tree wasn't referring to the non-kingdom Hyrule, why would he say Hyrule in the first place, given that the series never gave Hyrule a different meaning than the kingdom and the "dimension"?

PaChi2 said:

Also:

"This isn't an outlier as it scales only to the Triforce which is constantly stated to be far above the rest of the characters."

Click to expand...

You people already know why it's not an outlier so I didn't care about giving a better explanation.

What I'm asking is why we should assume Hyrule=universe in everything ever when Hyrule has very explicitly been used to not mean "universe" a far greater number of times than not.

Hyrule has only being used as the kingdom and as the dimension the kingdom is in, which was of unknown size. This simply clarifies it. The point is, there's nothing stating that Hyrule is smaller than an universe or even implying as such, unless, obviously, it's referred to the kingdom.

TriforcePower1 said:

Hyrule has only being used as the kingdom and as the dimension the kingdom is in, which was of unknown size.

Click to expand...

Then how does this help us?

It can mean both similar to how America is often used to refer to the country and the continent it is in. Same here, just that the continent is the dimension the country is in. I've already partially explained that in the OP. And if people want to refer specifically to the country, they just say "the kingdom of Hyrule" or something (especially in the Japanese version). Context makes it clearly obvious that the country meaning isn't the one used as "universe" and "Light World", similarly to how no one ever finds ambiguous the statement: "Christopher Columbus discovered America".

Why was this thread even made again? It was pretty much agreed on the other thread that 3-A Triforce wasn't going to be a thing, and there's no new evidence here.

Nah, only you decided that. Maybe Medeus a bit, but we should have still heard Azzy's opinion before closing it.

Azzy was obviously against it from the start? And you have it now.

Assuming that the kingdom of Hyrule is always used to refer to an entire universe simple because of an incorrect equation of it to the Light World when contextually it meant that the Light World was the Hyrule Kingdom, and also trying to push real world philosophy on the thread because of a single generic mention of "chaos" in regards to the Goddesses.

Which by the way, the triforce doesn't scale to.

Also, nevermind that "Cosmic power" =/= 3-A tier.

Matthew Schroeder said:

Azzy was obviously against it from the start? And you have it now.

Assuming that the kingdom of Hyrule is always used to refer to an entire universe simple because of an incorrect equation of it to the Light World when contextually it meant that the Light World was the Hyrule Kingdom, and also trying to push real world philosophy on the thread because of a single generic mention of "chaos" in regards to the Goddesses.

Which by the way, the triforce doesn't scale to.

Also, nevermind that "Cosmic power" =/= 3-A tier.

Click to expand...

Azzy was simply asking for more proof. He had never been against.

No? Read what I said above. Two meanings. One for the country, one for the dimension. How can a "world" even be a mirror of a country is beyond me. Especially when said "world" has an Eart-Sun radius at bare minimum. The chaos thing is legit as you have stated several times in other threads.

The whole "Dark World is equal to the Light World" quote from a Link to the past describes the Light World as being "verdant hills and lush forests". Obviously referring to the in-game world of Hyrule you can explore.

And not the whole universe.

How many times do I have to say that said quote comes from Hyrule Encyclopedia which isn't canon?